BajaNomad - I AVERTED A STROKE OR HEART ATTACK!

I AVERTED A STROKE OR HEART ATTACK!

Udo - 7-25-2012 at 12:42 PM

A little background: I have had a history of high blood pressure for the last 16 years, but was kept in check with regular exercise and
light medication.
But early this year I developed Atrial Fibrillation and high blood pressure.
I've been seeing a different cardiologist every two months.

The first order of cardiological repair was a CARDIOVERSION, where they shock your heart into a normal rhythm. That worked for four days, and by the 8th. day I was back in my earlier A-fib.

Then I saw a new cardiologist in Orange County who took a much closer look at the EKG and found out that what I actually had was that one of my electrical parts of the heart was not speaking to the other side, or to the bottom of it's own half (apparently the heard is divided into four parts).

So, we scheduled to have a "Cardiac Ablation" where they get to one's cardiac electrical circuits and cut them off (and solder the ends...called cauterizing). In my instance the doctor had to cauterize one on the upper left and one on the upper right by inserting probes through my groin I.E. my left and right genital area, plus insert a large tube down my throat for the camera.

I did not feel a thing during the procedure or after-effects except for a sore throat.

I am very happy to report that I came through with flying colors and have a blood pressure reading of 115/74 and heart rate of 65 bpm (all unmedicated).

I was told to stay on the same meds until the middle of next month when I will be re-evaluated.

PHEW!

p.s. I hope I get to see DENNIS this coming weekend at the wine fest.

comitan - 7-25-2012 at 01:04 PM

Good for you Udo, maybe we'll see you in La Paz again.

bajadock - 7-25-2012 at 01:19 PM

Udo, thanks for your good health news. See you Saturday.

Hoping Nomads learn from so much recent challenging Nomad health news.

All are welcome at BajaDock's Pub, Weight Room/Gym and daily hill workouts at Colonia Puerto Escondido/Punta Banda.

I also dispense medication in liquid form(sin prescripcion) most evenings. CHEERS

DavidE - 7-25-2012 at 01:34 PM

Excellent Udo. I'll bet you have added quite a few healthy years on to your life.

KurtG - 7-25-2012 at 01:45 PM

A buddy in San Diego had the same procedure last year with the same great outcome. I had not heard of this treatment until then, it is really quite remarkable.

Mexitron - 7-25-2012 at 01:46 PM

Clutch doctor---nice going!

Hook - 7-25-2012 at 01:47 PM

You are only the second person I have known who has had this procedure. The other one was my wife.

Since she was in her early teens, she would go into episodes of atrial fibrillation where her heart beat could go at 200 bpm and it could last hours or days. She has/had Wolff, Parkinson, White Syndrome. It's now completely cured. She's never had an episode since the operation.

Your surgeon wasnt Dr. Ehrlich, was it?

Udo - 7-25-2012 at 02:11 PM

We will definitely be in La Paz more regularly, Wiley, since Jana now also works for ATA and we can fly to Cabo for free!

Imagine this, Wiley...we drive to John Wayne airport (the O.C.), 5 minutes away, fly to Cabo, two hours, rent a car across the street (20 minutes) and head for Los Barriles or Todos Santos in one hour less than it takes us to drive to Ensenada from the OC. It is 3 hours less on the return trip if we count the border crossing!

Quote:

Originally posted by comitan
Good for you Udo, maybe we'll see you in La Paz again.

Udo - 7-25-2012 at 02:12 PM

I think we will drop by for some of your medication, Doc, on Saturday.

Quote:

Originally posted by bajadock
Udo, thanks for your good health news. See you Saturday.

Hoping Nomads learn from so much recent challenging Nomad health news.

All are welcome at BajaDock's Pub, Weight Room/Gym and daily hill workouts at Colonia Puerto Escondido/Punta Banda.

I also dispense medication in liquid form(sin prescripcion) most evenings. CHEERS

Udo - 7-25-2012 at 02:14 PM

Muchas gracias, David!

Quote:

Originally posted by DavidE
Excellent Udo. I'll bet you have added quite a few healthy years on to your life.

Loretana - 7-25-2012 at 02:19 PM

Thanks, Udo....
I'm going in to be checked out for a similar problem on Monday, and I appreciate your input. I feel braver already! :yes:

Udo - 7-25-2012 at 02:20 PM

No, Hook, it was Dr. Brian Kim at St Joseph's hospital in Orange, Ca.
Everyone there was of of Chinese origin, except for the anesthesiologist who was of "Indian" descent...must be a popular profession for the Hindu race, this is my fourth Hindu anesthesiologist.

Quote:

Originally posted by Hook
You are only the second person I have known who has had this procedure. The other one was my wife.

Since she was in her early teens, she would go into episodes of atrial fibrillation where her heart beat could go at 200 bpm and it could last hours or days. She has/had Wolff, Parkinson, White Syndrome. It's now completely cured. She's never had an episode since the operation.

Your surgeon wasnt Dr. Ehrlich, was it?

Udo - 7-25-2012 at 02:27 PM

My intent of this post is to provide support, as well as advice in regards to the procedure, Loretana. I am sure there are several Nomads who may or will be going through the same thing.

It all started when I woke up early morning one day in January of this year and I felt my heart just pounding.

The problem should have been caught by my GP, who did a supposedly very thorough physical the week earlier, but somehow missed my A-fib. When I asked him about the missed A-fib, his statement to me was that it was my responsibility to say something to him.
I now have a different GP in the OC.

Quote:

Originally posted by Loretana
Thanks, Udo....
I'm going in to be checked out for a similar problem on Monday, and I appreciate your input. I feel braver already! :yes:

Frank - 7-25-2012 at 02:48 PM

My wife is in this line of work, its amazing what they are able to do. The biggest thing is early treatment. She doesnt come home very often with a sad story to talk to me about. When she does its usually that the person didnt come in soon enough for her team to save them.

The motto is "Time is Muscle". Im glad they were able to save you Udo!

DENNIS - 7-25-2012 at 02:50 PM

Thanks, UDO. Mine was an A-FIB stroke and when I hook up with my new Kaiser Primary, Ill bring this up.

vacaenbaja - 7-25-2012 at 03:04 PM

You experience ia a great example of the value of a second opinion.
Unfortunately we tend not to question our doctors.
A second set of eyes is often times a good idea.

DavidE - 7-25-2012 at 03:34 PM

When I was diagnosed with Afib about seven years ago I was really bummed-out. Figured my days in Mexico were numbered. Went through the whole smear including three days in the hospital. In my case it is hereditary --- whole danged family ended up with it. There was talk of ablation, pacemaker, and Rx'ing really strong medicines like Amiodarone. Jesus, if you want a scare, go to a site like Rxlist.com and look up the side effects for amiodarone.

While grumbling around I happen to stumble on an afib forum where a long thread was running. It started with a declaration "I Am Cured Of Afib! And Need No Medicines Now!"

The lady claimed that taking magnesium supplements "cured her" of atrial fibrillation. Boy was I ever skeptical! But then others had chimed in below her and corroborated her claim. Too many rational accounts for me to dismiss out of hand. I had noticed that in the ER they always seem to have had me hooked up to IV bags of Diltiazem and (!) magnesium oxide. Hey wait a minute, something's fishy here.

About a month later a cardiologist appointment came up and I mentioned to her that I wanted to include a test for blood magnesium with all the other lab work. She shrugged "why not?".

A few days later, the lab results came back. I had to phone to get them. Really, really low magnesium level.

I went to Wally-Mart and bought the cheapest magnesium oxide on the shelf. Started taking the regular dose. A month went by, the first in eight I did not end up in the ER with a BP of 150/120 and pulse of 180. The second month came and went. I said the hell with amiodarone, so I quit. Four months went by, then a year. no afib. Three years. No afib.

Last summer I had started packing my car (someone else had to do it for me) down at the cape after a 7 month stay. My magnesium supplements got packed deep, deep in the trunk, and I ever so foolishly thought (Oh heck I'm probably over afib now). I went a month and a half without taking a magnesium oxide.

Two days after I landed in northern California (last october) I was in the hospital, connected to, you guessed it, magnesium. But this time, I asked for a blood test before they connected me. The lab result came back as usual, three hours later. "Extremely low level of magnesium in the blood". The moral of my story is I screwed up.

But there are just too many accounts of magnesium affecting afib out there to be a hoax. No it isn't a miracle. I had to jump through hoops before I found an internal medicine doctor who found medication to control my blood pressure spikes. I believe blood pressure spikes really aggravated my heartbeat. But regardless, I went 3 years with high blood pressure and no afib.

During one exam as I was being discharged, an RN came in with the papers and declared "Oh, by the way, you are severely anemic".

More online sleuthing. I started taking Folic acid and iron supplements. In four days I could not believe how much better I felt. I suspected a placebo effect, but no, the stuff reportedly works that fast.

This all sure leaves me wondering about leaving my health totally and completely in the hands of a doctor. My low magnesium and anemia were obvious on a lab report. Why didn't someone say something?

To anyone with afib I would have to say that if I were them I would follow doctor's instructions to the letter and ask for a blood magnesium test. It can't hurt.

JZ - 7-25-2012 at 03:53 PM

I'm about 40 and I got A-Fib about 4 years ago. Mine was caused 95% from drinking alcohol. I have a perfectly healthy heart, just had bad electrical signals effecting rhythm. Something like 15% of the population will get A-fib, but generally later in life.

I did a LOT of research on this. I met with cardiologists and surgeons from USC and UCLA. Both of these hospitals do catheter ablation. There are thousands of doctors doing this in the US and some have performed thousands of procedures.

The problem is the success rate is good, but not great. Somewhere between 60-70% depending on your health. I was quoted about 80% chance of success by USC. If you research this, you will find that people often have this procedure multiple times, maybe 5 times!

I decided to go a different route. I had a mini-maze procedure by a doctor at Ohio State. Going back 2 years when I researched this there were only a handful of hospitals in the world doing it. My doctor claims a 95% success rate and was super confident in fixing my particular situation. A big different from the ablation guy at UCLA, who basically told me no more caffeine or booze.

The mini-maze is similar to ablation, but a lot more comprehensive. I was in the hospital 3 days and went back to work in about a week. Went ice skating after 2 weeks, and in about a month I could start working out again.

I haven't had A-fib since the surgery and can pretty much drink what ever I want. Yeah, $150K later I can have a beer!! Thankfully insurance covered it!

EnsenadaDr - 7-25-2012 at 04:24 PM

OK...let's get to the bottom of all of this. Before I became a doctor in Mexico, I worked 15 years on the telemetry floor (the heart monitor floor) in different hospitals from New Jersey to Florida to California to Hawaii, as a Registered Nurse. Atrial Fibrillation is a conduction problem, which can be controlled with medications. When the medications don't work, the Doctors will try Cardioversion. This works especially with new onset AFib. But sometimes the Cardioversion doesn't work, and the person reverses back into atrial fibrillation. AFib, in itself, is not dangerous. What is dangerous is that if the blood is not "thin" enough, the person can throw clots because the atria starts fibrillating, which can cause stasis of the blood and can cause clots. Now, ablation is a whole other ball of wax. Ablation is done only when medications and cardioversion doesn't work. It usually is done for a condition called SVT, or supraventricular tachycardia. This usually means the heart is beating at over 200 beats per minute, and if unchecked, it will go into a fatal rhythm called ventricular tachycardia. VTach can lead to death. If a person has several episodes of SVT, and cannot be controlled with a calcium channel blocker or anti-arrythmia drug such as Amiodarone, the Cardiologists will send you to a specialist in Cardiology (an electrophysiologist) that studies the electrical system of the heart. They will actually try and put your heart into the abnormal rhythm and with the use of computerized mapping, will see the location of where the abnormality is, and will cauterize that part of the heart. Ablation is not something that should be taken lightly, and can sometimes fail. It is usually a last ditch effort if all else fails.

Sick Sinus Syndrome

EnsenadaDr - 7-25-2012 at 04:30 PM

There is also another arrythmia called Sick Sinus Syndrome. I have had the opportunity to see this in action on the telemetry monitors. What will happen is a person is chugging along at a regular rate, say 80 beats per minute, and then suddenly the heart goes up to 200 beats per minute or SVT, (can also be uncontrolled AFib) and then will go way down into the 30's and 40's. What the cardiologists will do in this case is get the heart rate way down with the use of medications, and put a pacemaker in to prevent the spiking of the heart rate up to 200. There are also people that have episodes of ventricular tachycardia, in which case doctors will place an AICD, or an Automatic Internal Cardiac Defibrillator, which is usually combined with a pacemaker. It is set so if the person goes over say 20 beats of VTach, the AICD will shock the person's heart back into a normal rhythm.

Quote:

JZ - 7-25-2012 at 04:43 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by EnsenadaDr
OK...let's get to the bottom of all of this. Before I became a doctor in Mexico, I worked 15 years on the telemetry floor (the heart monitor floor) in different hospitals from New Jersey to Florida to California to Hawaii, as a Registered Nurse. Atrial Fibrillation is a conduction problem, which can be controlled with medications. When the medications don't work, the Doctors will try Cardioversion. This works especially with new onset AFib. But sometimes the Cardioversion doesn't work, and the person reverses back into atrial fibrillation. AFib, in itself, is not dangerous. What is dangerous is that if the blood is not "thin" enough, the person can throw clots because the atria starts fibrillating, which can cause stasis of the blood and can cause clots. Now, ablation is a whole other ball of wax. Ablation is done only when medications and cardioversion doesn't work. It usually is done for a condition called SVT, or supraventricular tachycardia. This usually means the heart is beating at over 200 beats per minute, and if unchecked, it will go into a fatal rhythm called ventricular tachycardia. VTach can lead to death. If a person has several episodes of SVT, and cannot be controlled with a calcium channel blocker or anti-arrythmia drug such as Amiodarone, the Cardiologists will send you to a specialist in Cardiology (an electrophysiologist) that studies the electrical system of the heart. They will actually try and put your heart into the abnormal rhythm and with the use of computerized mapping, will see the location of where the abnormality is, and will cauterize that part of the heart. Ablation is not something that should be taken lightly, and can sometimes fail. It is usually a last ditch effort if all else fails.

I was with you until the last two sentences. I don't believe those to be true, or maybe I should say they are overly pessimistic.

[Edited on 7-25-2012 by JZ]

EnsenadaDr - 7-25-2012 at 04:46 PM

Well, let's put it this way. The Doctors (Cardiologists) that I worked with always tried medications first. If the case was especially severe, they would refer the patient to an electrophysiologist (a Cardiologist that specializes in the electricalconduction of the heart). JZ, you are BURNING the myocardium (heart muscle) in ablation which could cause irreversible damage. It is not something to be taken lightly.

DavidE - 7-25-2012 at 04:57 PM

Ensenada Dr, I sure lucked out when I happened to draw an internal medicine specialist who had practiced in the Philippines for the first 20 years. I kept complaining about crazy blood pressure spikes. He came up with an idea. He changed my medications to extended release type of the exact same stuff I was taking for years. Bingo! Like magic it worked. His explanation: "Sometimes regular medicines of this type really vary over the course of a dose period. it can start an oscillation in blood pressure". Also cured my elevated pulse episodes.

If I cut myself I bleed like a stuck hog. The docs in the states said I should be on coumadin with a history of afib, but if I never get afib now, and my blood appears to be not overly enthusiastic about coagulating? ? ? ? Sodium Warfarin isn't something I would wish to be on with lab services so far away. Anyway I have a good stash of amiodarone. Evil side-effects but effective if I ever need it. Aspirin! Well, we'll see.

EnsenadaDr - 7-25-2012 at 05:16 PM

David you have an excellent understanding of cardiac medication. I wanted to mention that your comment about Magnesium was right on. The first thing a good Doctor will check on a patient with a cardiac arrhythmia is their electrolytes, specifically, magnesium, potassium, then sodium, chloride. We used to have a protocol in the hospital for electrolyte replacement so the nurses didn't need an order. Amiodarone has some wicked side effects as you mentioned, but is good in a pinch for an arrythmia.

DavidE - 7-25-2012 at 05:33 PM

I went on a steep learning curve with meds and photo-sensitivity with me playing the part of guinea pig. I did not read the tiny warning sticker on the bottle of amiodarone. Then I drove from the states 5 days into Mexico with my left arm on the window sill. Also when they had me on that medicine I got those deposits in the cornea. Scared me to death to see chunks of black floating around in my vision. I have spent many, many hours researching medical reference websites. I still have a funny perception of medicines -- the part about what is more likely to harm a patient, the malady or the medication. Again, thank you for your participation on this forum. I more than read your responses, I study them. :-)

Thank you David

EnsenadaDr - 7-25-2012 at 05:47 PM

Thanks for the kind words, David. My responses come from many years of on the job experience and studying as well.

Quote:

Originally posted by DavidE
I went on a steep learning curve with meds and photo-sensitivity with me playing the part of guinea pig. I did not read the tiny warning sticker on the bottle of amiodarone. Then I drove from the states 5 days into Mexico with my left arm on the window sill. Also when they had me on that medicine I got those deposits in the cornea. Scared me to death to see chunks of black floating around in my vision. I have spent many, many hours researching medical reference websites. I still have a funny perception of medicines -- the part about what is more likely to harm a patient, the malady or the medication. Again, thank you for your participation on this forum. I more than read your responses, I study them. :-)

BajaBlanca - 7-25-2012 at 05:53 PM

very intersting thread as this is what we just went to the States for last week - a cardio-version

but I am getting ahead of myself:

4 years ago Les began having A-fib while we were traveling in Europe. He had a cardio-version there, then another, and was Ok for a while but soon realized he was still not right.

trip home and straight to UCSD hospital where he had many tests done - we ended up choosing Dr. Feld, one of the creators of this procedure, who does not take new patients any more. Les underwent 8 hours of ablation and then was great until 2 weeks ago when he felt bad again.

He had a choice of re-doing the ablation or trying the cardio-version again. He chose cardio-version and so far feels fine.

In his family, it is not genetic, as far as we know. In Europe they asked if he had had a bad cold, which he had not. Anyone else know of theories as to the "why' some get this and others don't ?

EnsenadaDr - 7-25-2012 at 06:09 PM

As a person gets older, the chances for acquiring AFib increase. Wear and tear on the heart, and damage to the myocardium (heart muscle) can cause an interruption of the electrical activity of the heart. Heart attacks or blockage of the coronary arteries which can lead to interruption of the oxygen supply to the heart and death of part of the heart muscle, can cause an electrical disturbance in the heart. A "cold" or virus can cause cardiomyopathy, or a diseased and/or ineffective heart muscle which can signal an electrical disturbance. There are many causes. Age and atherosclerosis, or hardening of the arteries, is probably the most common cause. A young, beautiful girl I worked with had episodes of SVT and needed an ablation at age 30.

DavidE - 7-25-2012 at 06:24 PM

Blanca, Why not try a magnesium supplement? It's cheap, healthy, and no medicine other than amiodarone could keep it from returning in my case. This isn't "Linus Pauling and vitamin C" theory*. A shortage of magnesium seems to cause arrhythmia even in people, young people with no history of heart problems.

*I joke that when I catch cold even though I take lots of vitamin C that at least the virus can't get scurvy.

Udo - 7-25-2012 at 06:36 PM

Glad you mentioned myocardium, which was the major contributor to my heart damage, including the death of part of my heart muscle.
Had it not been for my wife running marathons, I would be in a coffin by now...the story behind that is that I volunteered to pick up her marathon goodies bag at registration, about 17 years ago, and I went into one of the free blood pressure check booths. The technician asked me if I was planning on running the marathon the next day, because I would have collapsed by mile 5. He advised I immediately see a doctor, which I did the next week.
I had absolutely no symptoms of anything. I was a picture of great health...rock climbing, kayaking, hiking, backpacking, four wheeling, etc.

I learned my lesson...see an MD at the slightest symptom of ANYTHING, particularly at my age.

Quote:

Originally posted by EnsenadaDr
As a person gets older, the chances for acquiring AFib increase. Wear and tear on the heart, and damage to the myocardium (heart muscle) can cause an interruption of the electrical activity of the heart. Heart attacks or blockage of the coronary arteries which can lead to interruption of the oxygen supply to the heart and death of part of the heart muscle, can cause an electrical disturbance in the heart. A "cold" or virus can cause cardiomyopathy, or a diseased and/or ineffective heart muscle which can signal an electrical disturbance. There are many causes. Age and atherosclerosis, or hardening of the arteries, is probably the most common cause. A young, beautiful girl I worked with had episodes of SVT and needed an ablation at age 30.

Udo - 7-25-2012 at 06:39 PM

I take lots of Vitamin C and lots of Omega-3 fish oil. Have not had a cold in over seven years now.

Quote:

Originally posted by DavidE
*I joke that when I catch cold even though I take lots of vitamin C that at least the virus can't get scurvy.

Asesino Silencioso

EnsenadaDr - 7-25-2012 at 06:42 PM

Yes, Udo, High Blood Pressure, or Hypertension, is what I tell my patients in the clinic is the Asesino Silencioso, or the Silent Killer. It is silent, often with no symptoms, but deadly.

Quote:

Originally posted by Udo
Glad you mentioned myocardium, which was the major contributor to my heart damage, including the death of part of my heart muscle.
Had it not been for my wife running marathons, I would be in a coffin by now...the story behind that is that I volunteered to pick up her marathon goodies bag at registration, about 17 years ago, and I went into one of the free blood pressure check booths. The technician asked me if I was planning on running the marathon the next day, because I would have collapsed by mile 5. He advised I immediately see a doctor, which I did the next week.
I had absolutely no symptoms of anything. I was a picture of great health...rock climbing, kayaking, hiking, backpacking, four wheeling, etc.

I learned my lesson...see an MD at the slightest symptom of ANYTHING, particularly at my age.

Quote:

Barry A. - 7-25-2012 at 06:55 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Udo
I take lots of Vitamin C and lots of Omega-3 fish oil. Have not had a cold in over seven years now.

Quote:

Originally posted by DavidE
*I joke that when I catch cold even though I take lots of vitamin C that at least the virus can't get scurvy.

Hmmmmmm, I do too, Udo, and I seem to catch at least 2 colds a year. We are all different. :saint:

Barry

David K - 7-25-2012 at 07:07 PM

Glad you are doing good now Udo!

bajadock - 7-25-2012 at 07:09 PM

Marathons? KUUUL conversation coming up with Jana this weekend.

Great thread and lots of great info, ALL. Reminds me of BajaNomad a few short years ago!

Very nice website Doc

EnsenadaDr - 7-25-2012 at 09:29 PM

I am also very impressed with the caring and concern you show for others Doc. We need more people like you in the community.

Quote:

Originally posted by bajadock
Marathons? KUUUL conversation coming up with Jana this weekend.

Great thread and lots of great info, ALL. Reminds me of BajaNomad a few short years ago!

[Edited on 7-26-2012 by EnsenadaDr]

EnsenadaDr - 7-25-2012 at 09:39 PM

I had a patient come into the Maneadero clinic, a 22 year old with his heart racing unbelievably. The first thing that someone needs to do, when they feel their heartbeat going out of control, is to do what is called the Valsalva Maneuver. You sit on the toilet, and you bear down as if you are going to have a bowel movement. This creates a negative pressure that affects the vagal nerve which will slow down your heartbeat. I told this boy to go in the bathroom, and go for it. He looked skeptical, but I waited outside the door, and I asked him if he was trying it. I told him don't be embarrassed, keep trying until the heart slows down. After about 2 minutes, he came out and said his heart was back to normal. I then referred him to a cardiologist. Most cardiologists recommend this first and then a carotid massage. If that doesn't work they will try cardioversion. Some women as they go through menopause will have some arrhythmias, and need a beta-blocker or a calcium channel blocker to control further episodes of this happening.

Udo - 7-26-2012 at 09:16 AM

Your input has been invaluable, EnsenadaDr.

Hope you can show up the this Saturday's wine event in Punta Banda...studies have shown that red wine is beneficial to the heart.

Thank you, Udo

EnsenadaDr - 7-26-2012 at 09:31 AM

Would love to attend but I will be in San Diego this weekend!! Enjoy!!

Quote:

Originally posted by Udo
Your input has been invaluable, EnsenadaDr.

Hope you can show up the this Saturday's wine event in Punta Banda...studies have shown that red wine is beneficial to the heart.

BajaBlanca - 7-26-2012 at 09:36 AM

I will certainly look into the magnesium supplements ... sure is an easy solution.

Never did I guess that I should have asked for medical input/info on this forum 4 years ago when Les had his first episode of rapid heartbeat. It was one of the scariest times as neither of us had any knowledge at all about what was going on !

His heart muscle is fine but the arryhthmia (sp?) bothers him no end. We have been told that many people have A-fib and live their whole lives Ok with it. For Les, it causes extreme tiredness, with the first bout (when we were in Europe), he would wake up gasping for air. It was so horrible that he took regular 1 a.m. or 3 a.m. walks, came home and slept better.

thanks all.

Supplements

EnsenadaDr - 7-26-2012 at 09:42 AM

I would stay away from Magnesium or Potassium supplements. If you are having an arrhythmia, you need to see a Doctor. They will analyze your electrolytes and adjust them accordingly. Too much potassium or magnesium could have devastating consequences.

Quote:

Originally posted by BajaBlanca
I will certainly look into the magnesium supplements ... sure is an easy solution.

Never did I guess that I should have asked for medical input/info on this forum 4 years ago when Les had his first episode of rapid heartbeat. It was one of the scariest times as neither of us had any knowledge at all about what was going on !

His heart muscle is fine but the arryhthmia (sp?) bothers him no end. We have been told that many people have A-fib and live their whole lives Ok with it. For Les, it causes extreme tiredness, with the first bout (when we were in Europe), he would wake up gasping for air. It was so horrible that he took regular 1 a.m. or 3 a.m. walks, came home and slept better.

thanks all.

JZ - 7-26-2012 at 10:10 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by EnsenadaDr
I would stay away from Magnesium or Potassium supplements. If you are having an arrhythmia, you need to see a Doctor. They will analyze your electrolytes and adjust them accordingly. Too much potassium or magnesium could have devastating consequences.

Quote:

There seems to be a fear factor you like to spread with your posts. I've personally heard several doctors suggesting magnesium supplements as well as reading a good bit about it.

"Magnesium is a mineral that is present in relatively large amounts in the body. Researchers estimate that the average person’s body contains about 25 grams of magnesium, and about half of that is in the bones. Magnesium is important in more than 300 chemical reactions that keep the body working properly. People get magnesium from their diet, but sometimes magnesium supplements are needed if magnesium levels are too low. Dietary intake of magnesium may be low, particularly among women.

An easy way to remember foods that are good magnesium sources is to think fiber. Foods that are high in fiber are generally high in magnesium. Dietary sources of magnesium include legumes, whole grains, vegetables (especially broccoli, squash, and green leafy vegetables), seeds, and nuts (especially almonds). Other sources include dairy products, meats, chocolate, and coffee. Water with a high mineral content, or “hard” water, is also a source of magnesium.

People take magnesium to prevent or treat magnesium deficiency. Magnesium deficiency is not uncommon in the US. It’s particularly common among African Americans and the elderly.

Magnesium is also used as a laxative for constipation and for preparation of the bowel for surgical or diagnostic procedures. It is also used as an antacid for acid indigestion.

Some people use magnesium for diseases of the heart and blood vessels including chest pain, irregular heartbeat, high blood pressure, high levels of “bad” cholesterol called low-density lipoprotein (LDL) cholesterol, low levels of “good” cholesterol called high-density lipoprotein (HDL) cholesterol, heart valve disease (mitral valve prolapse), and heart attack.

Magnesium is also used for treating attention deficit-hyperactivity disorder (ADHD), anxiety, chronic fatigue syndrome (CFS), Lyme disease, fibromyalgia, leg cramps during pregnancy, diabetes, kidney stones, migraineheadaches, weak bones (osteoporosis), premenstrual syndrome (PMS), altitude sickness, urinary incontinence, restless leg syndrome, asthma, hayfever, multiple sclerosis, and for preventing hearing loss.

Athletes sometimes use magnesium to increase energy and endurance.

Some people put magnesium on their skin to treat infected skin ulcers, boils, and carbuncles; and to speed up wound healing. Magnesium is also used as a cold compress in the treatment of a severe skin infection caused by strep bacteria (erysipelas) and as a hot compress for deep-seated skin infections.

Some companies that manufacturer magnesium/calcium combination supplements promote a 2:1 or 3:1 ratio as being ideal for absorption of these elements. However, there is no credible research to support this claim. Claims that coral calcium products have ideal combinations of magnesium and calcium to cure a variety of diseases and conditions are being carefully evaluated by the US Food and Drug Administration (FDA) and US Federal Trade Commission (FTC).

How does it work?

Magnesium is required for the proper growth and maintenance of bones. Magnesium is also required for the proper function of nerves, muscles, and many other parts of the body. In the stomach, magnesium helps neutralize stomach acid and moves stools through the intestine.

Magnesium is LIKELY SAFE for most people when taken by mouth or when the prescription-only, injectable product is used correctly. In some people, magnesium might cause stomach upset, nausea, vomiting, diarrhea, and other side effects.

Doses less than 350 mg per day are safe for most adults. When taken in very large amounts, magnesium is POSSIBLY UNSAFE.
Large doses might cause too much magnesium to build up in the body, causing serious side effects including an irregular heartbeat, low blood pressure, confusion, slowed breathing, coma, and death.

Special Precautions & Warnings:
Pregnancy and breast-feeding: Magnesium is LIKELY SAFE for pregnant or breast-feeding women when taken by mouth in the amounts recommended. These amounts depend on the age of the woman. Check with your healthcare provider to find out what amounts are right for you.

Heart block: High doses of magnesium (typically delivered by IV) should not be given to people with heart block.

Kidney problems, such as kidney failure: Kidneys that don’t work well have trouble clearing magnesium from the body. Taking extra magnesium can cause magnesium to build up to dangerous levels. Don’t take magnesium if you have kidney problems."

[Edited on 7-26-2012 by JZ]

DavidE - 7-26-2012 at 10:27 AM

My cardiologist Rx'd me "Mag Oxide". I did not mean to imply someone should run out and start swallowing hand fulls of it. But I did have to specifically bring up the point of me having low levels of blood magnesium before magnesium ever entered my cardiac treatment regimen. This disturbs me. I like to prevent stuff. Like how to not fall into a campfire rather than dwell over what is the best burn ointment, so to speak.

EnsenadaDr - 7-26-2012 at 10:32 AM

Yes, but your cardiologist checked the levels apparently before David. No one should take a supplement without having the levels checked. My son is on a 30 banana a day diet (crazy I know). But I have even told him to get his electrolytes checked. You tend to run low on Magnesium, so a supplement is good for you. Magnesium and potassium are very dangerous in excess as well as in deficit.

Quote:

Originally posted by DavidE
My cardiologist Rx'd me "Mag Oxide". I did not mean to imply someone should run out and start swallowing hand fulls of it. But I did have to specifically bring up the point of me having low levels of blood magnesium before magnesium ever entered my cardiac treatment regimen. This disturbs me. I like to prevent stuff. Like how to not fall into a campfire rather than dwell over what is the best burn ointment, so to speak.

EnsenadaDr - 7-26-2012 at 10:36 AM

How long have you worked in hospitals, JZ? I have seen many complications, so sorry if I am a bit wary. I am generally pretty open minded about treatments. So no, I don't have a fear factor. I have my well grounded opinions as a result of many years of working in the hospital. I have said it, and will say it again. If your magnesium and potassium levels are normal, don't mess with a supplement. You are getting all you need from your diet, which is the most natural and best way to get vitamins and minerals. If its low, don't play doctor. Find out the dose you need and take it as prescribed. As far as a vitamin or mineral tablet or 2 a day, go ahead, knock yourself out.

capn.sharky - 7-26-2012 at 11:09 AM

I have had two open heart surgeries for valve replacements. Eight heart attacks, three small strokes, afib and a host of other things. While I don't have alot of energy anymore, I still go to Mexico and fish when I feel okay. I take about 18 different medicines per day just to stay alive. Speaking of the camera down the throat---they did that four times to look at the valve before and after surgery. I had no sore throat or after effects. Now I know what Linda Lovelace went through to make the movie. So buck up and don't worrry---after all, you are still here. Good luck in the future and stay healthy.

TEE

EnsenadaDr - 7-26-2012 at 11:34 AM

This procedure is called TEE, or Transesophageal Ecocardiogram
Here is a great clip on You Tube that explains the procedure:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Us9mXXILSk

Also another clip that explains Cardioversion for Atrial Fibrillation:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rSusgpskmzk

Quote:

Originally posted by capn.sharky
I have had two open heart surgeries for valve replacements. Eight heart attacks, three small strokes, afib and a host of other things. While I don't have alot of energy anymore, I still go to Mexico and fish when I feel okay. I take about 18 different medicines per day just to stay alive. Speaking of the camera down the throat---they did that four times to look at the valve before and after surgery. I had no sore throat or after effects. Now I know what Linda Lovelace went through to make the movie. So buck up and don't worrry---after all, you are still here. Good luck in the future and stay healthy.

[Edited on 7-26-2012 by EnsenadaDr]

JZ - 7-26-2012 at 12:11 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by EnsenadaDr
I have said it, and will say it again. If your magnesium and potassium levels are normal, don't mess with a supplement. You are getting all you need from your diet, which is the most natural and best way to get vitamins and minerals. If its low, don't play doctor. Find out the dose you need and take it as prescribed. As far as a vitamin or mineral tablet or 2 a day, go ahead, knock yourself out.

I've read that it's difficult for tests to accuractly test for magnesium deficiency, and the risk of the supplements is low. So I disagree with your advice of telling people to not give it a shot and I know other doctors disagree as well.

[Edited on 7-26-2012 by JZ]

EnsenadaDr - 7-26-2012 at 12:17 PM

JZ as I mentioned before, I worked on a cardiac floor and the number one test for electrolytes is potassium followed by magnesium. The magnesium lab draw is extremely reliable as well as accurate and magnesium protocols are implemented on many cardiac floors. I personally have seen patients with low magnesium level that had to have IV infusions to replace the magnesium. What ever doctor has told you to go ahead with magnesium supplements without testing I would like a reference please.

Quote:

Originally posted by JZ

Quote:

JZ - 7-26-2012 at 12:23 PM

Doctors above your qualifications.

EnsenadaDr - 7-26-2012 at 12:29 PM

I don't understand your question.

Quote:

Originally posted by JZ
Doctors above your qualifications.

comitan - 7-26-2012 at 02:27 PM

JZ

Your traveling a very rough road some of us don't care to travel that road, Ensenada DR, Has posted some very informative info and I for one appreciate it because when you have these problems its best to be informed and then you make your own decisions.

Udo - 7-26-2012 at 03:25 PM

JZ:

You are putting yourself into a HIGH AND MIGHTY pedestal.
That is uncalled for in this forum.

Quote:

Originally posted by JZ
Doctors above your qualifications.

BajaBlanca - 7-26-2012 at 03:26 PM

It makes very good sense IMO to get tested for magnesium before embarking on a self-prescribed addition to one's diet. I think an overdose of almost ANYTHING can be harmful - even too much drinking of water.

comitan - 7-26-2012 at 03:35 PM

If you google Magnesium you can find where it comes from in foods, I personally would not even get tested because I eat many of the foods that contain Magnesium. Of course everyone has to make their own decision

EnsenadaDr - 7-26-2012 at 05:05 PM

The only reason some get tested for a Magnesium level is because they have a cardiac arrhythmia and most cardiologists will do a quick check to see if the electrolytes are out of balance which can be the cause of the problem. Other than that, there is no need to test.

wilderone - 7-30-2012 at 08:36 AM

I take Hawthorne berry for irregular heartbeat as needed. Check it out.

Medicinal Uses and Indications:

Hawthorn is used to help protect against heart disease and help control high blood pressure and high cholesterol. Both animal and human studies suggest hawthorn increases coronary artery blood flow, improves circulation, and lowers blood pressure. It has also been used on the skin to treat boils and skin sores.

Heart failure

Hawthorn has been studied in people with heart failure (a condition in which the heart is unable to pump enough blood to other organs in the body), but more studies are needed to understand how effective it may be. A number of studies conclude that hawthorn significantly improved heart function. Studies also suggest the herb can enhance a person's ability to exercise following heart failure. Participants in studies have reported that hawthorn significantly improved symptoms of the disease (such as shortness of breath and fatigue). One study found that hawthorn extract (900 mg/day) taken for 2 months was as effective as low doses of captopril (a prescription heart medication) in improving symptoms of heart failure.

A large study found that a standardized hawthorn supplement was effective in 952 patients with heart failure. The study compared conventional methods of treating heart failure (with different medications) with hawthorn alone and in addition to the drugs. After 2 years, the clinical symptoms of heart failure (palpitations, breathing problems, and fatigue) decreased significantly in the patients taking the hawthorn supplement. People taking hawthorn also took less medication for their condition.

Heart failure is a serious condition, and you should never try to self treat with hawthorn. Ask your doctor if hawthorn is right for you.

Chest pain (Angina)

Preliminary evidence suggests hawthorn may help combat chest pain (angina), which is caused by low blood flow to the heart. In one early study, 60 people with angina were given either 180 mg/day of hawthorn berry leaf flower extract or placebo for 3 weeks. Those who received hawthorn experienced improved blood flow to the heart and were also able to exercise for longer periods of time without suffering from chest pain. However, more studies are needed to say for sure whether hawthorn is effective.

High blood pressure

Although hawthorn has not been studied specifically in people with high blood pressure, some people think its benefits in treating heart disease may carry over to treating high blood pressure (hypertension). However, so far not enough research has been done to say whether hawthorn is effective at lowering blood pressure -- and if so, by how much.

In one study, hawthorn extract was found to be effective for hypertension in people with type 2 diabetes who were also taking prescribed medicines. Participants took 1,200 mg hawthorn extract daily or placebo for 16 weeks. Those taking hawthorn had lower blood pressure than those taking the placebo.

You should talk with your doctor before taking hawthorn if you have high blood pressure.

Available Forms:

Hawthorn is available in nonstandardized and standardized capsules and liquid extracts, along with tinctures and solid extracts. A bitter tasting tea can also be made from dried hawthorn leaves, flowers, and berries.

Read more: http://www.umm.edu/altmed/articles/hawthorn-000256.htm#ixzz2...

DavidE - 7-30-2012 at 10:22 AM

Interesting to be sure. The read suggests it has some potent effects. A lot of medicines were and are based on plant extracts. So the extract is indeed a medicine of one sort or another. It would be nice to see results of a randomized double-blind study of Hawthorne extract in comparison with placebo and other common medicines such as diltiazem/verapamil, and metoprolol. Myself, I'd like to balance possible efficacy benefits, against drug interactions, and side-effects before I would consider taking it.

Thanks for sharing. I have bookmarked the site

prorader - 7-30-2012 at 04:17 PM

Dr you dont have to understand the question JZ made a very bad insult to your :fire:

person

[Edited on 7-30-2012 by prorader]

EnsenadaDr - 7-30-2012 at 04:31 PM

It's ok, Tim, I didn't take it personally. JZ seems like an intelligent person and we are all entitled to our opinion. The only thing I ask is that if he is quoting a source or a physician, I'd like the link. I already gave him my qualifications in this thread, so I thought he was asking for someone else's qualifications.

SFandH - 7-30-2012 at 07:34 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by DavidE
So the extract is indeed a medicine of one sort or another. It would be nice to see results of a randomized double-blind study of Hawthorne extract in comparison with placebo and other common medicines such as diltiazem/verapamil, and metoprolol.

This link may be helpful:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmedhealth/PMH0013393/

The link is part of this website, which I use as a medical reference:

U.S. National Library of Medicine - The World's Largest Medical Library

Put "Hawthorn" into the search textbox for more info.

Hawthorn sounds like interesting stuff. Thanks to the nomad who originally posted about it.

[Edited on 7-31-2012 by SFandH]

I think there is some confusion here...

EnsenadaDr - 7-30-2012 at 09:49 PM

Quote:

Heart failure is not the same thing as an irregular heartbeat. Heart failure is due to the ventricles, (usually the left ventricle) not having enough muscle power to pump the blood and the lower pressure causes a fluid back up into the lungs which causes shortness of breath and fatigue.

To talk about a double blind study in heart failure with Verapamil or Metoprolol is truly blind. While Metoprolol and Diltiazem are excellent medications for irregular heartbeats, these drugs will have serious if not deadly effects on a person with congestive heart failure. (Read the part about contraindications). http://www.livestrong.com/article/348420-calcium-channel-blo...

Originally posted by wilderone
I take Hawthorne berry for irregular heartbeat as needed. Check it out.

Medicinal Uses and Indications:

Hawthorn is used to help protect against heart disease and help control high blood pressure and high cholesterol. Both animal and human studies suggest hawthorn increases coronary artery blood flow, improves circulation, and lowers blood pressure. It has also been used on the skin to treat boils and skin sores.

Heart failure

Hawthorn has been studied in people with heart failure (a condition in which the heart is unable to pump enough blood to other organs in the body), but more studies are needed to understand how effective it may be. A number of studies conclude that hawthorn significantly improved heart function. Studies also suggest the herb can enhance a person's ability to exercise following heart failure. Participants in studies have reported that hawthorn significantly improved symptoms of the disease (such as shortness of breath and fatigue). One study found that hawthorn extract (900 mg/day) taken for 2 months was as effective as low doses of captopril (a prescription heart medication) in improving symptoms of heart failure.

A large study found that a standardized hawthorn supplement was effective in 952 patients with heart failure. The study compared conventional methods of treating heart failure (with different medications) with hawthorn alone and in addition to the drugs. After 2 years, the clinical symptoms of heart failure (palpitations, breathing problems, and fatigue) decreased significantly in the patients taking the hawthorn supplement. People taking hawthorn also took less medication for their condition.

Heart failure is a serious condition, and you should never try to self treat with hawthorn. Ask your doctor if hawthorn is right for you.

Chest pain (Angina)

Preliminary evidence suggests hawthorn may help combat chest pain (angina), which is caused by low blood flow to the heart. In one early study, 60 people with angina were given either 180 mg/day of hawthorn berry leaf flower extract or placebo for 3 weeks. Those who received hawthorn experienced improved blood flow to the heart and were also able to exercise for longer periods of time without suffering from chest pain. However, more studies are needed to say for sure whether hawthorn is effective.

High blood pressure

Although hawthorn has not been studied specifically in people with high blood pressure, some people think its benefits in treating heart disease may carry over to treating high blood pressure (hypertension). However, so far not enough research has been done to say whether hawthorn is effective at lowering blood pressure -- and if so, by how much.

In one study, hawthorn extract was found to be effective for hypertension in people with type 2 diabetes who were also taking prescribed medicines. Participants took 1,200 mg hawthorn extract daily or placebo for 16 weeks. Those taking hawthorn had lower blood pressure than those taking the placebo.

You should talk with your doctor before taking hawthorn if you have high blood pressure.

Available Forms:

Hawthorn is available in nonstandardized and standardized capsules and liquid extracts, along with tinctures and solid extracts. A bitter tasting tea can also be made from dried hawthorn leaves, flowers, and berries.

Read more: http://www.umm.edu/altmed/articles/hawthorn-000256.htm#ixzz2...

DavidE - 7-31-2012 at 10:46 AM

"Hawthorn is used to help protect against heart disease and help control high blood pressure" A Quote

METOPROLOL From The PDR

" Hypertension

Lopressor (metoprolol tartrate) tablets are indicated for the treatment of hypertension. They may be used alone or in combination with other antihypertensive agents.

VERAPAMIL From The PDR

COVERA-HS is indicated for the management of hypertension and angina.

FROM THE POST

"Medicinal Uses and Indications:

Hawthorn is used to help protect against heart disease and help control high blood pressure"

I then to suggest that I would not consider taking an unproven in a double-blind study herb medication, or medication of any sort...

Followed by a doctor accusing me of being "blind". Oh pray god, may I never regain my eyesight.

[Edited on 7-31-2012 by DavidE]

EnsenadaDr - 7-31-2012 at 11:01 AM

Sorry David, I was referring to using Hawthorne in a double blind study as to an irregular hearbeat as quoted by Wilderone. For the effects on hypertension, you are correct, Metoprolol and Diltiazem are good blood pressure medications, and it would be interesting if Hawthorne would be effective with high blood pressure.

DavidE - 7-31-2012 at 11:40 AM

I am very touchy about blood pressure because I went through hell trying to control mine. The one doctor in more than twenty I tried that had the initiative and boldness to try something he suspected as being a root cause, is a hero in my book.

I deeply suspect hypertension has a greater role in Afib than general practitioners realize. Hypertension isn't something that can be relegated to the "Oh well I tried three doctors and they couldn't control it" department. I watched my father ignore his health, suffer a horrendous stroke, then gobble really hazardous medications when his afib became too much too bear. The medications would have been fine, but not in double or treble doses after going without for weeks "because he did not have afib then". It killed him eventually. His friend, an ophthalmologist reported that the hospital removed a day-dispenser pill box from his pocket with a week's worth of cardiac medications all used up on day three.

Me? I consider myself "The Aware Patient". When I informed Dr. DeCastro "My health is ninety-percent up to me", he laughed and said "Hey! Wait a minute! My part is more than ten percent!"

A person does not have to be a hypochondriac in order to have the best health they can as they age. But living with high blood pressure or high blood sugar is a recipe for certain early misery and doom. Big deal. I went through internal medicine doctor after doctor. I was always gracious and polite. But when I heard remarks like "Your high blood pressure spikes are not well understood" my hair stood on end. And I don't have a lot of hair. Mission accomplished. Reasonable blood pressure. Reasonable pulse. No Afib.

When I get my eyesight back, and get my spine fixed so I don't have to swallow Tramadol, Acetaminophen and an NSAID to get out of bed in the morning, I AM FIXED! Less garbage destroying my liver and kidneys! Damn that will feel good!

Thank you Ensenada Dr.

EnsenadaDr - 7-31-2012 at 12:39 PM

David, I find your posts to be extremely well informed and it must have been my error to assume (makes a burro out of you and me) :tumble:

that you were specifically talking about an irregular heartbeat. Afib in fact has quite a bit to do with years of hypertension, from what I have read. Usually a person that knows the most has gone through the most, as you can attest to. I enjoy your interesting comments on herbs and different approaches to traditional medicine so keep 'em coming!!

Tod - 7-31-2012 at 03:21 PM

4 years ago I had a minor out-patient operation for Pterygium, a growth on my eye somewhat common to those with lots of exposure to sun and wind. I ended up coding during this procedure and after they brought me back with CPR (came back to cute nurse straddling my chest and working like crazy on me) I was rushed to hospital and had two cardioversions which did not 'take'. I was on coumadin and sotolol for many months and then tried another cardioversion. Finally referred me to another specialists and we did the robotic cathater ablation. Instantly felt great and have been going full speed ever since with lots of surfing and other exercise. It was an amazing gift to get back to full speed. What caused it??? BP or stress? No one was able to determine what caused it but I had been light headed for months before I coded.

EnsenadaDr - 7-31-2012 at 04:04 PM

Let me tell you what might have caused it. During my year of Internship at the Military Hospital I had the pleasure of being in surgery with a very good ophtalmologist. What happens when surgery is performed on the eye is that a vagal nerve response is frequently induced by the eye surgery and I have seen many patients go bradycardic...which necesitates the use of atropine which will increase the heart rate. If the anesthesiologist isn't on the ball or distracted, the heart rate can go dangerously low and may cause a code.