BajaNomad

mission san luis gonzaga chiriyaqui, davidK

willardguy - 9-2-2012 at 03:44 PM

when I bring up the story of the ruins of a jesuit warehouse in the vicinity of bahia willard I get blank stares. a couple months ago I walked all around the area of the fish camp on the west shore of the bay and couldnt find anything resembling a ruin.
I have read accounts of a warehouse ruin but it was the other gonzaga, the one between mag bay and loreto.
im not doubting anyone but could we have the wrong gonzaga?:?:

More than 1 Gonzaga in Baja...

David K - 9-2-2012 at 06:21 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by willardguy
when I bring up the story of the ruins of a jesuit warehouse in the vicinity of bahia willard I get blank stares. a couple months ago I walked all around the area of the fish camp on the west shore of the bay and couldnt find anything resembling a ruin.
I have read accounts of a warehouse ruin but it was the other gonzaga, the one between mag bay and loreto.
im not doubting anyone but could we have the wrong gonzaga?:?:


The MISSION of San Luis Gonzaga Chirayaqui 1737-1768 is in Baja California Sur, southeast of Cd. Constitucion





The BAY of San Luis Gonzaga is in Baja California (norte). Sometimes called 'Willard Bay', but historically is the bay named by Consag in the 1740's.







Named by Padre Consag when he discovered the bay and here is his part of his 1746 map with the bay...



The ruins on the shore of the bay were probably constructed by the Franciscans in 1768-1769 to off load supplies for the nearby mission of Santa Maria de los Angeles, or their new mission of San Fernando Velicata... When I made my 2002 Gonzaga Sidetrips web page, I was thinking they were Jesuit ruins, but the Jesuits were expelled just a few months after moving their last mission to the present Santa Maria site, to have constructed such a facility, I now believe. The ruins are on the west to southwest shore of the bay... and they are just a foundation of the warehouse... Here is my photo taken in 2002...



GPS: 29°48.92'/ 114°24.61' That is my 2001 Tacoma on the far side, and beyond is Punta Willard and to the left is Papa Fernandez'



[Edited on 9-3-2012 by David K]

David K - 9-2-2012 at 06:36 PM





Push pin is on the north wall of the warehouse.

You can make out the rectangle of the ruin just past the concrete slab of some former fishcamp building.

[Edited on 9-3-2012 by David K]

David K - 9-2-2012 at 06:43 PM

Here's another warehouse, but built over 100 years after the Gonzaga Bay one, by gold miners...


EL ALMACEN... closer to Okie Landing.

willardguy - 9-2-2012 at 06:46 PM

thanks david, if you don't mind, what was your source regarding this warehouse on the west end of bahia willard? gracias amigo!

David K - 9-2-2012 at 06:51 PM

Originally it was Gerhard and Gulick's Lower California Guidebook first mentioned in their 1958 edition.

Homer Aschmann has an aerial photo pointing to it in his 1959/ 1967, THE CENTRAL DESERT OF BAJA CALIFORNIA: Demography and Ecology

David K - 9-2-2012 at 07:07 PM

The point is Willard, but the bay and island is San Luis Gonzaga... The U.S. Navy on an H.O. chart called the point, bay and island all 'Willard' and a lot of people started using Willard instead of Gonzaga.

Some maps with the correct bay names (San Luis Gonzaga on the north of the island, and Ensenada de San Francisquito to the south, to Punta Final):









This one didn't have room to put it in the north bay and slightly changed the south bay's name:





Sometimes we see the bay name shortened to 'San Luis' and applied to both parts, as in this 1905 mining map:



and this 1823 map:

willardguy - 9-2-2012 at 07:15 PM

thanks david, I have that lower california guide book and although they talk about the chiriyaqui mission site a bunch there is very little about what i'll call "our gonzaga". is there some way you could print the aerial view from homer aschmann's book? if not thats cool, gracias!

Barry A. - 9-2-2012 at 07:19 PM

My Mom and Aunt camped at those ruins many times back in the 'early 50' thru the early '70's and I have many slides of them taken by them. There also is the ruins of an old fishcamp building nearby and closer to the water, as David K indicates. There was/is another abandoned Fish Camp north of the subject "ruins" in a shallow arroyo, with big cliffs and a large hill between the two areas, cutting off any easy access between them. I have also camped there several times, but it is separate from the possible Franciscan ruins, but they sure do exist.

Lots of interesting ruins, that few folks ever get to, in that area.

Barry

David K - 9-2-2012 at 07:23 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by willardguy
thanks david, I have that lower california guide book and although they talk about the chiriyaqui mission site a bunch there is very little about what i'll call "our gonzaga". is there some way you could print the aerial view from homer aschmann's book? if not thats cool, gracias!


Go to page 84 of G&G of the 3rd or 4th editions (1962-1970) for all about San Luis Gonzaga Bay. Go to page 300 of Aschmann's to see the photo with an arrow pointed close to the ruin site.

SCANS

David K - 9-2-2012 at 07:34 PM

Gerhard & Guilick's Lower California Guidebook:




Aschmann's page 300:

David K - 9-2-2012 at 07:37 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Barry A.
My Mom and Aunt camped at those ruins many times back in the 'early 50' thru the early '70's and I have many slides of them taken by them. There also is the ruins of an old fishcamp building nearby and closer to the water, as David K indicates. There was/is another abandoned Fish Camp north of the subject "ruins" in a shallow arroyo, with big cliffs and a large hill between the two areas, cutting off any easy access between them. I have also camped there several times, but it is separate from the possible Franciscan ruins, but they sure do exist.

Lots of interesting ruins, that few folks ever get to, in that area.

Barry


We just gotta get those slides converted to digital format (cd disc)!! Costco has this service as do photo shops... any chance Barry... like maybe a birthday present for me this month? (LOL)... :lol::light::cool:

willardguy - 9-2-2012 at 07:40 PM

lol! well there's my problem, I got the 1956 edition, as of then the boys had not written much about gonzaga bay.
barry, i'd love to see any old photos you might have, the abandoned fish camp in the arroyo is about a "driver" away from my house. (if you're tiger woods):biggrin:

willardguy - 9-2-2012 at 07:49 PM

and the old spanish well we get our water from, pozo de los frailes! bet most the old timers didnt even know it had a name!:O

Barry A. - 9-2-2012 at 07:53 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by willardguy
lol! well there's my problem, I got the 1956 edition, as of then the boys had not written much about gonzaga bay.
barry, i'd love to see any old photos you might have, the abandoned fish camp in the arroyo is about a "driver" away from my house. (if you're tiger woods):biggrin:


Yep, that's it. We would walk over to Papa Fernandez for dinner every night that we didn't have fish. (not that often, and usually a result of not fishing and doing some exploring all day).

Converting slides is expensive, even at Costco. My son has all my Mom's and Aunt's slides from the '50's and '60's over in Independence, CA.

David K - 9-2-2012 at 08:00 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by willardguy
lol! well there's my problem, I got the 1956 edition, as of then the boys had not written much about gonzaga bay.
barry, i'd love to see any old photos you might have, the abandoned fish camp in the arroyo is about a "driver" away from my house. (if you're tiger woods):biggrin:


That would be it... since their travels for that 1956 edition (mostly Gulick's) were done BEFORE Arturo Grosso blasted the first pilot Jeep trail north to San Felipe, from Calamajue/ Chapala... and that was in 1956.

Barry A. - 9-2-2012 at 08:11 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by David K
Quote:
Originally posted by willardguy
lol! well there's my problem, I got the 1956 edition, as of then the boys had not written much about gonzaga bay.
barry, i'd love to see any old photos you might have, the abandoned fish camp in the arroyo is about a "driver" away from my house. (if you're tiger woods):biggrin:


That would be it... since their travels for that 1956 edition (mostly Gulick's) were done BEFORE Arturo Grosso blasted the first pilot Jeep trail north to San Felipe, from Calamajue/ Chapala... and that was in 1956.


Well, in that case, my Mom and Aunt must have been at Gonzaga Bay in the LATE '50's, not the early '50's as I previously stated. They travelled in an old VW bus back in those days, and went everywhere in that machine. My first trip to San Luis Gonzaga was in the early/mid 1960's, as I recall, in a different VW bus.

Barry

willardguy - 9-2-2012 at 08:20 PM

your mom and aunt in gonzaga in the 50's in a VW bus!!! now those girls have some braggin rights!

David K - 9-2-2012 at 08:52 PM

It was really special to arrive to Gonzaga by any vehicle in the 50's or 60's!

When my parents took their first trip south of San Felipe (in a new Jeep Wagoneer) in '65, they drove into Papa Fernandez' to find a film crew who had flown in (as the majority of tourists did in those days)... making a movie about hunting bighorn sheep and other game in North America.

They didn't know it at the time, but they were filmed driving into Papa's compound, stopping, and my dad got out, looked around, then ducked back to speak to my mom(you can even see my mom sitting in the Jeep).. The movie was called The American Adventure (or something like that) and was in theaters some 7 years later. WE WERE SHOCKED and jazzed when we saw the movie (my mom and I) and couldn't wait to get to my dad and take him to see it to surprise him! The film was a documentary about hunting game from Mexico's Baja to Alaska (polar bear).

Not PC today, but was okay in 1971 or 2 when the movie came out.

Anyway, there was no narration during the time it showed the Jeep driving in and my dad getting out... then it went on to talk about how they were going to hunt a bighorn... weird. I guess it was so rare to see a new car or any car at Gonzaga Bay, it deserved to be in the movies!! :lol::lol::lol:

I have tried to find that movie on a DVD or VHS with no luck.

Barry A. - 9-2-2012 at 09:07 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by willardguy
your mom and aunt in gonzaga in the 50's in a VW bus!!! now those girls have some braggin rights!


They were characters, for sure. They also drove that VW bus alone to Cabo San Lucas on the old dirt track before the paved road went in, taking a month to complete the entire trip down, and back. My Mom was a young widow, and my Aunt was never married. I was back east in College and did not get to go------this was in about 1958, I believe (if I remember right). My aunt helped Gulick with some of his mapping in the Laguna Salada area, also, and I have some of the correspondence back and forth on that endeavor. Fun stuff for sure. My Aunt was a retired Colonel in the Air Force, a rare thing for a women back in those days, and she was also a pilot. She passed on at 78 years old 17 years ago. All my camping trips back in my youth were with her, almost always in the desert----the desert---her (and my) real love.

Barry

willardguy - 9-2-2012 at 09:15 PM

wow those were adventurous ladies!
hey david, did it break your heart pops didnt go with the FJ45?

[Edited on 9-3-2012 by willardguy]

David K - 9-2-2012 at 11:09 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by willardguy
wow those were adventurous ladies!
hey david, did it break your heart pops didnt go with the FJ45?

[Edited on 9-3-2012 by willardguy]


I was 7 1/2 when we first went to Baja. I had no desire for a Toyota until the month I got my first one in 2000.

Another photo of the Gonzaga Bay mission warehouse ruin

David K - 2-15-2016 at 02:09 PM

This one is from the archeologist studying the ruin, Dr. Eric Ritter:


ritter-3.jpg - 89kB

Note Punta Willard/ Papa Fernandez' in the distance.
The image is Fig. 3 in Dr. Ritter's article: http://www.xaguaro.com/MemoriasCD/page2/styled-10/styled-15/

Here again is my photo, three years before Dr. Ritter's:

warehouse 2002.jpg - 90kB



[Edited on 2-15-2016 by David K]

Gonzaga Warehouse in 1958

David K - 2-15-2016 at 02:50 PM

Photo from Howard Gulick:



warehouse 1958.jpg - 101kB

4x4abc - 2-15-2016 at 08:07 PM

your maps always stir something up
where is, or which of the known springs is Pozo Salorro?

freediverbrian - 2-15-2016 at 09:11 PM



The spot of the push pin has been a Mexican fish camp for many years , maybe not the most enjoyable hike . wonder what is left?

[Edited on 2-16-2016 by freediverbrian]

willardguy - 2-15-2016 at 10:26 PM

not sure why this discussion from 2012 resurfaced, but an easy low tide walk from either direction, there's absolutely nothing to see out there, decades of both fish and military camps have left the area a bottle cap and fish net collectors paradise. scratch it off DK's list of must things to do while in Gbay!;)

David K - 2-15-2016 at 10:34 PM

Why photos are the greatest! I have the photos from Dr.Ritter of the floor in that Gonzaga warehouse. When I come across them, I will share.
So, in 10 years the remains that have been there since 1768 are gone willardguy? It is about 50 feet NW of that concrete slab. Ritter was there not that long ago.

willardguy - 2-15-2016 at 10:46 PM

Quote: Originally posted by David K  
Why photos are the greatest! I have the photos from Dr.Ritter of the floor in that Gonzaga warehouse. When I come across them, I will share.
So, in 10 years the remains that have been there since 1768 are gone willardguy? It is about 50 feet NW of that concrete slab. Ritter was there not that long ago.


if you look at the "warehouse floor" at the depth that Dr. Ritter "discovered" and walk east into the bay you'll find exactly the same "flooring" there as the good doctors dig site revealed. Im still callin' BS.....but I really don't care!:rolleyes:

willardguy - 2-15-2016 at 10:48 PM

how bout you take a walk out there yourself, and report back?

David K - 2-16-2016 at 09:11 AM

Why the new posts?
A: I found two more photos of the mission warehouse at Gonzaga Bay, so I added them to this thread.

BS?
A: The warehouse existence was published in Aschmann's book (1959) and Gerhard & Gulick's book (2nd edition 1958).
Bah�a San Luis Gonzaga (what some call Willard Bay) was discovered and named by Consag in 1746 and became an important port to offload supplies and personal during the Franciscan (1768-1773) and Dominican mission periods.

A cargo trail was built from the warehouse to the Camino Real (junction is 4 miles west of Mission Santa Mar�a) as a shorter route to reach Mission San Fernando and those beyond. Some of the cargo trail is easily seen on Google Earth (between 29�46.965', -114�32.640' and 29�46.165', -114�34.190').

I just searched and found where I saved Dr. Eric Ritter's photo of the stone floor exposed inside the warehouse at Gonzaga Bay:



[Edited on 9-7-2023 by David K]

bajatrailrider - 2-16-2016 at 09:23 AM

Thank you David,love the history.

willardguy - 2-16-2016 at 10:58 AM

Quote: Originally posted by David K  
Why the new posts?
A: I found two more photos of the mission warehouse at Gonzaga Bay, so I added them to this thread.

BS?
A: The warehouse existence was published in Aschmann's book (1959) and Gerhard & Gulick's book (2nd edition 1958).
Bahía San Luis Gonzaga (what some call Willard Bay) was discovered and named by Consag in 1746 and became an important port to offload supplies and personal during the Franciscan (1768-1773) and Dominican mission periods.

A cargo trail was built from the warehouse to the Camino Real (junction is 4 miles west of Mission Santa María) as a shorter route to reach Mission San Fernando and those beyond. Some of the cargo trail is easily seen on Google Earth (between 29º46.965', -114º32.640' and 29º46.165', -114º34.190').

I just searched and found where I saved Dr. Eric Ritter's photo of the stone floor exposed inside the warehouse at Gonzaga Bay:



I have read dr ritters accounts, its all "possibly's, "may be's" "my guess","could be's"his dig really turned up nothing.
that said, im sure it could be mission ruins, the doctor and his colleagues readily admit they just don't know!
I get it that everytime DK spots a pile of rocks its a mission ruin, and an entry in his "missionary's gone wild" series of books, all im saying is there is absolutely nothing to see out there......today. ;)

David K - 2-16-2016 at 05:04 PM

How about a photo?
I wonder who hauled off all the wall rocks?
Ritter was there less than 5 years ago.
Glad Gulick took lots of photos of the historic sites in the 50's and 60's!

Nov 1958 (Gulick) vs. Nov 2002 (Me) vs. July 2005 (Ritter)

warehouse 1958.jpg - 101kB warehouse 2002.jpg - 90kB

ritter-3.jpg - 89kB

4x4abc - 2-16-2016 at 05:31 PM

it's all a conspiracy - the Jesuits were never in Baja
warehouses?
Nahh

willardguy - 2-16-2016 at 05:49 PM

Quote: Originally posted by David K  
How about a photo?
I wonder who hauled off all the wall rocks?






thats a good question david, that pile of rocks was put there by either the jesuits, franciscans, or colonials, doctor tex ritter or his cohorts don't really know......but some jackwagon came along and stole them for their private collection, authorities have ID'ed the perps and are actively pursuing an investagation. all they have to go on is this discription of the get-away vehicle! :lol:


David K - 2-17-2016 at 09:05 AM

LOL... yes a Tacoma is a popular truck in Baja! The one pictured above has indeed been within a mile of the warehouse ruins, but not to it. That was my gold 2001 Tacoma, in 2002. I would have taken fresh photos if the silver 2010 was there!

4x4abc - 2-17-2016 at 09:38 AM

maybe my question got lost:
where is, or which of the known springs is Pozo Salorro?
I ask, because it is on the previous maps

Bwana_John - 2-17-2016 at 12:06 PM
Quote:

I wonder who hauled off all the wall rocks?


They didnt get "hauled off", the rocks were reused by the military to keep the boys busy making fighting pits, as fill for the slab foundation, lining the path to the outhouse, clearing the path to the beach to launch the plastic patrol boats (even under water), ect...

Before the Motorized Calvary moved into the current sight next to the highway, the "warehouse" sight was used, both by regular Army and by "Special Forces" as the main base in the Gonzaga Area, that is who poured the slab (and erected a small building over it) and they did most of the current rock work.

Willard Guy, Im pretty sure the military was on the "warehouse" sight when your neighbor Jay first started his mud hut.

I would like more info on the old "Campo Java" located in the mouths of the two arroyos between the warehouse/military sight and Papa's property.... and when was the fisherman's house on the island used for "aquaculture"?

David K - 2-17-2016 at 02:39 PM

Quote: Originally posted by 4x4abc  
maybe my question got lost:
where is, or which of the known springs is Pozo Salorro?
I ask, because it is on the previous maps


Las Palmitas and La Turquesa Canyon are two natural water sources south/east of the mission. San Francisquito (next to Las Arrastras would be next...?

4x4abc - 2-17-2016 at 08:53 PM

my guess is Las Palmitas

which one do you call san Francisquito, David?

[Edited on 2-18-2016 by 4x4abc]

David K - 2-18-2016 at 07:58 AM

Quote: Originally posted by 4x4abc  
my guess is Las Palmitas

which one do you call san Francisquito, David?

[Edited on 2-18-2016 by 4x4abc]


It is just a few hundred meters west of Las Arrastras. See it listed here on Gulick's 1954 El Camino Real Map: