BajaNomad - Okay Butterfly experts

Okay Butterfly experts

Pescador - 9-16-2012 at 07:48 AM

I am fascinated by what happened this year with the hatching of millions of small yellow or white butterflies this year in BCS. We had a lot of rain so obviously the hatch is related to rain and water. If I remember correctly butterflies lay eggs which hatch into caterpillars, who weave a cocoon, which turns into a butterfly when the conditions are right.
On dry years we see few if any butterflies, but when we get a tropical storm or just a fair amount of rain, we usually see butterflies about two weeks later. The dragon flies come out the same way but about a week earlier. Does this mean that the cocoons lay there dormant for years until the conditions are right for a hatch?

This year we have more caterpillars than I have ever seen before and with all of the green plants along the side of the road, the highway from Mulege to Vizcaino was covered with caterpillars. A lot of those will not be spinning cocoons.

Mula - 9-16-2012 at 08:14 AM

The locals - between Mulege and Loreto - say when millions of yellow butterflies swarm in the arroyos, etc, the last of the rain for the year has come.

We don't have this phenomena in Lopez Mateoz, Insurgentes or Constitucion so far yet this year, so still more rain to come.

Osprey - 9-16-2012 at 08:22 AM

Fishinjim, I've wondered the same thing. I have a theory. Down here I'm a local and I think the yellow ones are meat eater and after a big rain they come out of the caves in search of the bodies of flash flood victims. Worse than the buzzards.

My cave thinking comes from the fact that I have yet to encounter a cocoon.

BajaBlanca - 9-16-2012 at 08:41 AM

how about the huge brown moths this year ? have you seen them ? it is the first time that I see themso huge here in la bocana.

Osprey - 9-16-2012 at 08:50 AM

Blanca, if you're lucky you might even see an occasional Rothchildia moth -- huge, with transparent windows in the wings. A strange and wonderful creature.

[Edited on 9-16-2012 by Osprey]

Moth Nomad.jpg - 18kB

vandenberg - 9-16-2012 at 09:48 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by BajaBlanca
how about the huge brown moths this year ? have you seen them ? it is the first time that I see themso huge here in la bocana.

Always lots of those around Nopolo this time of year.

And over the years I've seen the yellow ones so thick between Vizcaino and Loreto, that I had to clean my trucks radiator every 25 miles to keep it from overheating.

[Edited on 9-16-2012 by vandenberg]

bajajudy - 9-16-2012 at 11:19 AM

I believe that the yellow ones are the infamous "Love Bugs" of Florida. They have stations along the road so you can stop and clean your radiator so you dont over heat. We have thousands of them this morning and Monarchs too
Quite a sight.

Paulina - 9-16-2012 at 01:51 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by BajaBlanca
how about the huge brown moths this year ? have you seen them ? it is the first time that I see themso huge here in la bocana.

We had one that joined us for dinner, two nights in a row. It really liked the taste of Dern's Italian salad dressing.

P>*)))>{

Marla Daily - 9-17-2012 at 06:48 AM

The large dark moth in the photos is a Black Witch (Ascalapha odorata) known as Mariposa de la muerte in Mexico. The come from as far south as Brazil and are often mistaken for a bat. They eat over ripe fruit — looking for a meal on the plate. They are beautiful wonders of nature.

bajajudy - 9-17-2012 at 06:49 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Marla Daily
The large dark moth in the photos is a Black Witch (Ascalapha odorata) known as Mariposa de la muerte in Mexico. The come from as far south as Brazil and are often mistaken for a bat. They eat over ripe fruit — looking for a meal on the plate. They are beautiful wonders of nature.

They also like wine
Hey a little wine with my salad sounds good to me.

elizabeth - 9-17-2012 at 07:15 AM

Is there someone who can actually answer the question? What is it about rain that causes the profusion of these butterflies? It's calmed down some, but Loreto was teeming with them. My grandson thinks I know everything, and now clearly he knows I don't, he wants to know why rain equals butterflies!!!!

Skipjack Joe - 9-17-2012 at 07:21 AM

Rain equals plant growth and plant growth equals butterflies.

It's mostly about food. Caterpillars feed primarily on young soft leaves. The plant life most of the year is unsuitable for eating.

Pescador - 9-17-2012 at 10:59 AM

Yeah, but I still do not have the answer. The butterflies come from a cocoon, which is spun by the caterpillar. The caterpillar comes from an egg. We get butterflies about 2 weeks after the rains. On dry years they do not show at all. So they have to be in a dormant stage as a cocoon and them come out when it rains. They quickly lay eggs which lead to caterpillars, which eat leaves and green stuff. We saw millions of these caterpillars on the road last week.
Also, we get a large hatch of dragon flies, which also must spend time in the desert in a dormant stage until the rains come. They come out in about a week, which is about a week before the butterflies.

The only thing that seems to make sense is the butterflies are in the cocoon stage for as long as 4 or 5 years, If dry, and come out right after the rains start. Some years we have no rain and I have not seen a butterfly at all.

maspacifico - 9-17-2012 at 12:21 PM

They must be dormant til the rain. I remember years that the rains were spaced out and they got even thicker with each hatch. We are getting the big yellow ones right now. Fun to watch.

Skipjack Joe - 9-17-2012 at 01:42 PM

Here is a bit more info that is helpful.

1. The dormancy period of a butterfly is called diapause.

2. Butterflies can go through diapause in either the cocoon or the egg stage.

3. Many species of butterflies go through multi-year diapauses. Meaning the dormant phase can last several years.

If somebody knew the species of these yellow butterflies we could probably look up their life cycles.

-------------------

My first and favorite memory of these butterflies was during the el nino year of 1983. Driving to San Francisquito from El Arco the van would dip into a moist arroyo and a thousand butterflies would burst from the ground in front of us. We loved it!

Pescador - 9-17-2012 at 03:52 PM

They are called Cloudy Sulphur and I think the solution is diapause as Igor suggests. This is an amazing example of how Mother Nature sets up a species to survive in a very hostile environment. They must be able to go through a drought and wait until the rain comes. Here is what I have observed.

It rains, either with a hurricane, tropical storm, or just a downpour. Within two weeks, the butterflies come out in great numbers. They then mate and lay eggs on the emerging green plants. Within about 10 days, the eggs hatch into caterpillars and they eat everything green they can. When they reach maturity, they spin a cocoon and go into diapause. On years where we have more another rainstorm later, they mature into butterflies and come out again, but on a normal year, they stay at that stage until the rain hits again. They do not come out on the first day of rain because the plants have not had a chance to grow, but the butterflies lag behind the rain with enough time that the green plants start to grow.

Now what I need to do is to start checking where the pupa stage or cocoons are stored and in what plants or trees.

A guy has to do something to keep his mind active when the fish are not biting. :lol:

elizabeth - 9-17-2012 at 04:16 PM

Thanks Skipjack Joe and Pescador...now I can tell my grandson I indeed can find out anything even if I don't know it right away!

Butterflies

tehag - 9-17-2012 at 05:20 PM

Common yellow butterflies in BCS include: Southern dogface, Statira, Cloudless sulphur, Orange sulphur, Mimosa yellow, Little yellow, and Sleepy orange. The Statira is usually the major player in the giant yellow rainy-season swarms. The Southern dogface population also explodes after rains. All the desert species seem to blossom after a good rain, when all the world's a salad bar. For a quick ID reference click the link below and then click Others - Thumbnails.

As far as the original question goes, I think Skipjack's answer will do nicely.

ecomujeres - 9-17-2012 at 09:50 PM

Another point to consider: from what I've been reading about the Sulphur butterflies, they are migratory. This means that they may actually be following food sources that are appearing after the rains and so aren't neccesarily leaving their chrysali en mass, but are arriving from elsewhere and congregating on preferred food sources, along with local hatchlings.

LarryK - 9-18-2012 at 12:17 AM

[We were fishing out of La Ventana/Muertos and there were thousands of the small yellow ones flying across the ocean from what appeared the mainland (not Cerralvo). When we returned to camp they were not there. I think they went to the mountains.

Skipjack Joe - 9-18-2012 at 12:27 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by ecomujeres
Another point to consider: from what I've been reading about the Sulphur butterflies, they are migratory. This means that they may actually be following food sources that are appearing after the rains and so aren't neccesarily leaving their chrysali en mass, but are arriving from elsewhere and congregating on preferred food sources, along with local hatchlings.

I gave a bit of thought about this earlier today.

I came across some studies that showed that a butterfly can remain in the diapause state for only a given amount of time before it dies as well. The study showed one species kept in a lab that survived 5 years, beyond which the cocoons wouldn't recover no matter how perfect conditions were provided.

I've seen these yellow suphurs in the Los Arcos area which gets much less rain than mulege/santa rosalia and east cape.

What could be happening is that the southern baja climate provides enough moisture for the 'base' populations. Enough moisture that droughts are not long enough to wipe out these populations entirely.

The central baja populations may die off during some long drought periods but are repopulated by migrations from the more stable populations from the south.

Also, it doesn't seem to be simply a water issue. The winter rains that come in jan/feb don't seem to excite them very much at all.

Pescador - 9-18-2012 at 08:40 AM

The yellow ones are definately the Statira species. I found a butterfly identification program but they were not listed. Tehags site had a great listing of butterflies, but alas not much information.

I do not think that these are migratory because there does not seem to be any pattern that would come with a migration, meaning that some show up followed by a few more each day, whereas these things exploded in a day or two at most.

Guess I will have to build a terrarium and keep a caterpillar to cocoon or Pupa stage and watch for the hatching.

Thanks for all the information and replies, this has been very informative.

Bugman - 9-18-2012 at 10:30 AM

Insects are very adaptable creatures and you really have to be when living on a peninsula with such inconsitent weather like Baja. Most of the butterflies and moths there go dormant (diapause) in the pupal stage and can remain that way for a number of years (5 or more) until mother nature presents optimal weather conditions. It is common to have a small but steady population most years but then you can have an explosion when the rains come and all those that have been in long diapause make an appearance. For some species it is actually the drop in barometric pressure that triggers them to hatch so it does not always work to just throw water at them.

The Rothschildia moths feed on the Jatropha bushes and their cocoons can wait many years to hatch but shortly after a hurricane or big rainstorm they can be very common and so will their large caterpillars on the Jatropha. The black witch moths can reach near pest proportions in wet years and they will move north up into areas where they normally do not call home. Whenever Baja has a good year for them we often start seeing them in Southern California as well. In fact, I just had one at my porch light a few nights ago in Escondido. They are attracted to any sweet substance from rotting fruit to regular soda. I remember many years ago camping north of Loreto and it was about a month after a hurricane so the place was nice and green. My friend spilled his orange soda in the back of my car as we were getting ready to call it a night. I forgot and left a window open that night and in the morning there must have been more than 50 of those moths in the car. That was quite sight when I opened the truck in the morning to have dozens of those things flying in my face trying to escape. Now when I go down there anymore I just buy some bananas at the store and let them rot in the sun in a plastic bag for a couple days. They draw in lots of butterflies during the day and the black witch moths at night. It makes for a good nature lesson for my kids. :coolup:

Skipjack Joe - 9-18-2012 at 10:48 AM

Perhaps I used the wrong term - migration. Dispersion is better suited. Anything that flies has the ability to disperse during "rich" years. They will remain in new territories until severe drought conditions cause die offs. Then their distribution range is reduced back to more stable regions.

BajaBlanca - 9-18-2012 at 03:46 PM

Osprey - I have not seen that gorgeous moth around yet but i will keep an eye out. The ones we have seem to be all brown with no design on the wings. but they are huge. and at first I wanted to call them a butterfly. But I don't recall ever seeing an all-brown insect being labeled a butterfly.

so...what is the difference between a moth and butterfly ?

also, we have these HUGE caterpillars that are now crawling everywhere and mostly trying to enter the house. I think they have some incredible sense of temperature and are looking for the coolness of the Mexican tile we have thoughout the house ... they are gross. yuck. this city girl does not like them !

Bugman - 9-18-2012 at 04:10 PM

The main way to tell the difference between a moth and a butterfly is to look at the antennae. Moth antennae come in a number of shapes (including feather like) but they always get skinnier at the tip. With one very rare exception that we need not worry about, butterfly antennae always start out skinny and then get a little thicker at the very tip forming a club at the end. You can also go by some of the other general rules like butterflies fly during the day and moths look a little furrier and fatter but there are a number of exceptions to those general rules. The big caterpillars you are seeing may be those of the white lined sphinx (google the name for pictures). If they are mostly black or black and green and have a horn sticking off one end then that is cetainly what they are. These are harmless and no need to be worried unless of course you like to be worried......... :yes:

Skipjack Joe - 9-18-2012 at 11:25 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by BajaBlanca

also, we have these HUGE caterpillars that are now crawling everywhere and mostly trying to enter the house.

Yum! Think of the protein.