BajaNomad - Advice on environmental permitting for our lot

Advice on environmental permitting for our lot

MissesB - 12-25-2012 at 01:41 PM

We are trying to figure out the least complicated and most economical way to start building our simple casita. We have a 2000 m2 lot 600m from the beach at Cerritos, Pescadero. SEMARNAT originally said that we'd need one permit, then a week later wrote saying we'd need an EIS and change of land use permit which would all run around $8000. We've been told that if we subdivide to less than 1000m2 we won't need any of this, just an ecology permit or permit to clear the land? Does anyone know the costs for this and what the name of the permit is? Are we missing anything or does this seem like the best way to go? Thanks!

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bajaguy - 12-25-2012 at 02:04 PM

Seek out a local engineers and an attorneys who have land use experience....and get second opinions. You want to find experts that deal with these issues.

tiotomasbcs - 12-25-2012 at 04:43 PM

Ask your selling agent or other business agents who have dealt with building permits. Ask around in Todos like Bajaguy said.It's a little tricky and getting more complicated! Suerte. Tio ps talk with the local gringos who are building or have built in the area!

[Edited on 12-25-2012 by tiotomasbcs]

Archie - 12-25-2012 at 06:37 PM

Subdividing your lot just will cause you more trouble as you´ll have to do everything twice, hire a survey crew, pay the municipal fees and have your paperwork ready.

About the SEMARNAT requirements, the first its called an "Environmental Impact Manifest", its a document elaborated to define and mitigate all the impacts from the construction on the land (soil, landscape) and wildlife (plants and animals).

The cost depends on the total construction area, this goes from 0 to 10 Hectares (about 3 to 4k US dollars), 11 to 100 and up (prices scale). You have to pay a fee to submit your Manifest to SEMARNAT and they evaluate its contents, and in 35 days you´ll have an answer (positive is a go) or they may ask for more info or elaborate more details on the process of building and mitigating the impacts.

The fee you pay to submit to evaluation is one thing, you still have to hire a Consultant to elaborate this manifest, usually charging you the same amount as the fee.

On the other hand, the change of land use its a document only required when youre clearing native vegetation and the lot its out of the city limits. Costs less (about 1k pesos), but has to be signed by a registered consultant.

Recommendations: check at least two or three consultants, have´em to give you an estimate for ALL the permits: MIA, land use change, compensation, including the cost of the fees to submit the papers to evaluation, even travel expenses. Sign a contract and pay no more than 50% to start.

Im feel bad telling you this, but the best consultants have some relation ($$$) with SEMARNAT personnel, so they can give you sound advice on who can do the job.

EDIT: if you cand read spanish, this is the link of the website with the official info from SEMARNAT.

LAND USE CHANGE

http://www.cofemertramites.gob.mx/intranet/co_region_Publish...

ENVIRONMENTAL IMPACT MANIFEST

http://www.cofemertramites.gob.mx/intranet/co_dialog_Publish...

ask any neighbours too !!!

captkw - 12-25-2012 at 06:46 PM

Hola, nice area !! a lot folks from santa cruz ca. around there !!....K&T :cool:

Russ - 12-25-2012 at 07:55 PM

OMG !!
Don't go cheap. It'll come back to bite you. With that large a piece of land I would recommend an experienced lawyer to lead you through the nightmare. I hope the journey is smooth for you.

Marla Daily - 12-25-2012 at 08:09 PM

I found this information on another site for a reference in La Paz:

"We used a biologist named Lilia Martinez in La Paz. She was professional and competent. I don't remember all the different costs, but the whole thing wound up costing between $7000 - $8000 USD. At least half of that was for the biologist fee and survey. The entire "project" is covered, and we were advised to include any and all possible construction items even if you didn't intend to do them all at once. That way, you don't have to go back and do it all over again when you want to put in a swimming pool or some other thing."

vandenberg - 12-25-2012 at 08:49 PM

A "BIOLOGIST" :?:

monoloco - 12-25-2012 at 09:28 PM

I live near there and did the subdivision on my 2000m2 lot and the difference was 8000 pesos vs. 5000 dollars for the EIS.

ncampion - 12-25-2012 at 10:05 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Marla Daily
I found this information on another site for a reference in La Paz:

"We used a biologist named Lilia Martinez in La Paz. She was professional and competent. I don't remember all the different costs, but the whole thing wound up costing between $7000 - $8000 USD. At least half of that was for the biologist fee and survey. The entire "project" is covered, and we were advised to include any and all possible construction items even if you didn't intend to do them all at once. That way, you don't have to go back and do it all over again when you want to put in a swimming pool or some other thing."

We also used Lilia for our EIA survey. She did a good job and everything went smoothly. It did cost around $8000 USD for our 4000sq M lot, just North of Loreto, but big fines await you if you don't "play the game". I thought when I left Calif. I was done with excessive regulations, but not so.

Archie - 12-26-2012 at 01:22 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by vandenberg
A "BIOLOGIST" :?:

Im a biologist too, and i have some experience consulting in this area in particular for Exportadora de Sal, local ejidos around GN and some fishing projects. Govt. requires this study for every project or development in protected areas.

Since the Manifest is related to the impacts on the environment during any stage of development, and the mitigation methods should be nature friendly, at least in México a biologist has the training and is capable to do this job.

CaptKW, since 1997 Mexican law requires this kind of paperwork for new develpopments. You end up paying for a positive resolution from SEMARNAT tellling you will be doing evertything by the law.

This is only for development from zero, clearing vegetation (change of land use) its a different thing, although related.

Same for construction permits, those usually area arranged by the contractor or the architect.

MissesB - 12-26-2012 at 08:05 AM

Thanks Nomads! I have been talking to lawyers, engineers, SEMARNAT, surveyors, my closing agent and neighbours..which has lead me to the subdivision option. I think alot of people may have built without the proper permits. Alot of developments have done EIS for the whole area prior to selling lots, but not here. I could also try to find some neighbours to go in and do an EIS together...My last conversation with the engineer/surveyor about subdividing was in Spanish, so I wanted to make sure I wasn't missing anything if anyone had dealt with this problem before.

monoloco - 12-26-2012 at 08:07 AM

Just call Noe Valente Salgado Rodriguez, Ingeniero Civil, in Todos Santos
01(612)145 0519
044(612)140 3355
You will save time, money, and a lot of hassles by doing the subdivision. The EIS is a joke here, they charge all that money to count every cactus, then let you blade off the whole parcel after you transplant a token few. You are better off transplanting the nice trees and cactus that will be displaced by your construction to landscape your lot. When we built, I actually rescued plants that were uprooted when they cut in the road, and planted them on our lot, besides transplanting most of what we disturbed in construction, ending up with more native vegetation than we started with. If you would like to know which plants should be saved you can u2u me and I would be happy to show you. There are a lot of trees, small shrubs, and cactus that absolutely should be saved that they will allow you to decimate with an EIS.

Marla Daily - 12-26-2012 at 08:13 AM

Please post additional information about your experience with the subdivision route. How large a piece can be "cut" out for development, for example. What are the permits needed by this process, as opposed to the full Semarnat EIR, and what are the costs?

RnR - 12-26-2012 at 08:42 AM

Would really like to hear of your experience with the subdivision route, also. It seems to be a common practice on the east cape.

For example:

Most of the original "parcelas" for sale in the area were 6,000 m2. (30m x 200 m)

The original purchasers then subdivided them one of two ways:

1. Into four lots of 1,500 m2 each, (30m x 50m).

2. Into three lots of 1,980 m2 each, or in some cases 1,998 m2 each, with the remainder "reserved" for a future accesso or sidewalk or park area or whatever.

When questioned as to why 1,998 m2 rather than just three lots at 2,000 m2, the answer was "It's better to be under 2,000 m2. 2,000 m2 is a threshold for a lot of additional requirements and conditions".

Never asked about the specifics of the "threshold" but there must be something to it.

monoloco - 12-26-2012 at 08:53 AM

If your lot is less than 1000m2 there is no requirement for an EIS. I actually learned this from the SEMARNAP official when he came to our place and suggested that a subdivision would be cheaper than obtaining an EIS. Dividing our lot cost us 8000 pesos vs. over 5000 dollars for an EIS, we were then issued a building permit in La Paz, which they would not issue without an EIS before we subdivided. We built 3 years ago and have never had any troubles over it. In the Todos Santos/ Pescadero area it is also a good idea to use the building inspector, Fito, as an expeditor to get your building permit, he doesn't charge much, and it insures that you won't have any problems.

ncampion - 12-26-2012 at 09:40 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by RnR
Would really like to hear of your experience with the subdivision route, also. It seems to be a common practice on the east cape.

For example:

Most of the original "parcelas" for sale in the area were 6,000 m2. (30m x 200 m)

The original purchasers then subdivided them one of two ways:

1. Into four lots of 1,500 m2 each, (30m x 50m).

2. Into three lots of 1,980 m2 each, or in some cases 1,998 m2 each, with the remainder "reserved" for a future accesso or sidewalk or park area or whatever.

When questioned as to why 1,998 m2 rather than just three lots at 2,000 m2, the answer was "It's better to be under 2,000 m2. 2,000 m2 is a threshold for a lot of additional requirements and conditions".

Never asked about the specifics of the "threshold" but there must be something to it.

The "additional requirements" for lots greater than 2000m2 is a sliding scale financial obligation that requires you to "invest" a certain amount of money to improve the property withing 24 months of purchase. For our lot of just over 4000m2 the obligation was $350,000 USD. We didn't have a problem with signing that obligation as we intended to spend that amount anyway.
I have not heard of the exemption for lots less than 1000m2, but it may be true, I have just never investigated it. FidiWat in La Paz can give you all the information you may need (in English).

ncampion - 12-26-2012 at 09:48 AM

One problem with subdividing your lot is that you must then get a separate Fideicomiso for each new lot. This can wind up costing more than the cost of the EIS in the first place.

oladulce - 12-26-2012 at 09:58 AM

In 2005 we asked the architect who submitted our plans to catastro if he knew about these Environmental Impact study things that we'd just started hearing about. He said "uhhh sure, I can do that for you but it's ok to start building in the meantime. When they finished the garage and casita, we learned that of course he'd never done anything.

In 2006 there were stories of surprise PROFEPA inspections happening in Baja Sur and we wanted to correct our problem so we hired an Ingeniero and who said he could get an impact study thru SEMARNAT even tho we had started building (because he "knew people" in PROFEPA) and paid an attorney to "consult" to make sure things were being done correctly. $6500 dollars and one year later and the MIA was MIA somewhere in the SEMARNAT system.

2008 we hired an attorney who used to work for PROFEPA, who said he could have any future penalities they hit us with for the pre-mature building tossed out on a technicality. Cost= $2000.

In 2009 we finally retired and ready to start on our main house construction. We hired a SEMARNAT-approved biologist Hilario Estrada to start the EIS for our main house. Unfortunately he discovered that our property boundaries (as well as all our neighbors) had not been recorded accurately which cost $7000 dollars to correct for our 2 lots before we could start the EIS.
This process required approval of Fideio banks, catastro, SEMARNAT (because of proximity of the Federal Zone) and several other entities and was a big deal and took 13 months to complete.

In 2010 Hilario began our Environmental Impact study and Cambio Uso de Suelo. His part of the process was finished promptly but It was finally approved and done 12 months later . FYI- start as early as you can. SEMARNAT guidelines might say a process requires 35 days etc, but paperwork can be in limbo for 3-4 months before it moves on to another dept to sit for several more months. I don't recall the final total but the cost was $8000-10,000 dollars. We are located 5 hours from Hilario's La Paz office which required some travel for him.

During the EIS process on the main house, PROFEPA inspectors came out to do a follow-up check on the previous case for pre-mature building of the casita and garage. We thought after paying the attorney $2000 that case was closed but it was only
put on hold and the case was still active with potential for $10,000 penalty. So, for another $2000 we hired another environmental attorney, this time one who was recommended by Hilario, and they filed an appeal with PROFEPA and were able to get the case dismissed.

What did we learn?
- I would not trust anyone but Hilario to do an EIS or to answer any questions about the subject or the requirements.
- Just because someone "used to work for SEMARNAT or PROFEPA" or "has friends at SEMARNAT" doesn't mean they are the one's you should trust to do your EIS.
- Expect processes to take at least one year, probably longer.

Do we sleep any better knowing we obtained all the proper Mex paperwork for our casa? Maybe because our wallets are much lighter after forking out all the wasted $$$, but other wise not really. We are in a remote area and so far there haven't been any surprise PROFEPA sweeps to nail those with illegal construction. When the PROFEPA guys have come out to make inspections for our case or for the EIS process, they are only here to complete that task and don't have time to notice all the palapas, trailers, bodegas and non-permitted construction throughout the pueblo.

We joke and say we should have skipped the entire process and just set aside $9000 for any future EIS if we were caught and $10,000 for potential penalities, but there's some truth there.

I regaled you :rolleyes:

with our saga to emphasize that you can get royally screwed trying to do the right thing with this EIS stuff. Hilario is the only one I'd trust to get an honest assessment of your "sub-division" or any other questions. Send me a u2u if you'd like his contact info.

monoloco - 12-26-2012 at 11:01 AM

oladulce's experience makes a good case for the subdivision.

Marla Daily - 12-26-2012 at 07:48 PM

Ola Dulce —
What horrible experiences!
Where did you build in BCS?

environmental permits

Smooth - 1-20-2013 at 11:59 AM

Quote:

Smooth - 1-20-2013 at 12:06 PM

it really is best to get on with doing the work and paying the MONEY
for your own permits. Then you don't have to be so jealous of what you seeing your neighbor doing. Jealousy es el peor de Bujerias but nothing a local Shaman can't reverse back at ya. LOL
so get on with your own life and quit worrying what the Jones's are doing.
You are hurting the local community's development with your crying and whining and guess what! Get off your bumb, shut down the computer and get busy your owrn self. Trying to control what the neighbors are doing will only make you distateful, ugly and crazy.

[Edited on 1-20-2013 by Smooth]

MissesB - 1-20-2013 at 10:30 PM

WTF??

Quote:

Originally posted by Smooth
it really is best to get on with doing the work and paying the MONEY
for your own permits. Then you don't have to be so jealous of what you seeing your neighbor doing. Jealousy es el peor de Bujerias but nothing a local Shaman can't reverse back at ya. LOL
so get on with your own life and quit worrying what the Jones's are doing.
You are hurting the local community's development with your crying and whining and guess what! Get off your bumb, shut down the computer and get busy your owrn self. Trying to control what the neighbors are doing will only make you distateful, ugly and crazy.

[Edited on 1-20-2013 by Smooth]

Smooth - 1-21-2013 at 08:58 AM

hi Missie B
my response was not directed at you
Here is something I bet you didn't count on. We did all of our permits and now our psycho neighbor who never got off her fat butt to do her own work is calling everyone she can think of and accusing us of not having our permits......granted we all know this perosn is mentally compromised but imagine out amusement at having spent the money and time and now having a jealous neighbor attempting to throw in a monkey wrench just cuz she was too tight and too lazy to get her own work done. I tell ya...ya live long enough you see it all.

monoloco - 1-21-2013 at 09:35 AM

Maybe your handle should be not so smooth.

mcfez - 1-21-2013 at 09:50 AM

This advice is.......very good! It's how the Sacramento and San Francisco Govt works when applying for permits. We had a Ca. Lobbyist along with a lawyer doing our permit process.

Yes...hire someone that is with the "good ol boys" network.....

Quote:

Originally posted by Archie

Im feel bad telling you this, but the best consultants have some relation ($$$) with SEMARNAT personnel, so they can give you sound advice on who can do the job.

durrelllrobert - 1-21-2013 at 10:07 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Archie

Quote:

Originally posted by vandenberg
A "BIOLOGIST" :?:

the tiger Woods Punta Brava golf course hit this same snag here in Punta Banda.

Smooth - 1-21-2013 at 10:13 AM

I agree. We are grateful our consultant is well connected. In our case we needed a bullet proof, professional, in case our southern neighbor had "fits" about what we are doing moving dirt. There is no way around the fact that the process is expensive and time consuming, but well worth it. Resistance to change is human nature and the "barking dogs" can appear from several factions no matter how hard you try to do what is right for the greater good.
Sorry to hear of your skeptism Monoloco. You short on cash?

monoloco - 1-21-2013 at 01:12 PM

Quote:

Sorry to hear of your skeptism Monoloco. You short on cash?

I was referring to your rather cryptic post.

Smooth - 1-21-2013 at 02:43 PM

Thanks for your honesty monoloco.Considering I am dealingwith tremendous energy vampirism cryptic might be appropriate. I will try to smooth it though, I have only lost my patience and that's allot patience to lose