BajaNomad - Solar for Camping?

Solar for Camping?

Ateo - 12-25-2012 at 09:40 PM

Anyone have any experience with those portable solar panels people use for camping? I would like to power my blender for margaritas when in the middle of nowhere. Just kidding.

But, any thoughts/brands/experience?

Gracias.

Curt63 - 12-25-2012 at 10:08 PM

Solar is great for daytime. Most Baja days (90% of the time Im sleeping on an empty beach) my happy hour starts about 3. Organize the camp, pile up firewood, make my bed, start dinner. no work after dark. just drinking and sleeping. most nights 830 or 9 is lights out.

Bajaboy - 12-25-2012 at 10:17 PM

I've thought about solar before primarily for an Engle type refer/freezer....I want something to freeze ice in order to replenish ice for the chest

Ateo - 12-25-2012 at 10:19 PM

I hear that Curt63. I'm always amazed when I check the clock before bed and it's 8:40PM. Although, THAT IS 4 HOURS after the sun sets in Winter and 4 hours in the dark is generally more than enough, especially if waves were caught, food was eaten, and shots possibly taken.

I don't plan on staying up late with these solar panels. Just want to charge a few "items" if needed on long stays.

Ateo - 12-25-2012 at 10:22 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Bajaboy
I've thought about solar before primarily for an Engle type refer/freezer....I want something to freeze ice in order to replenish ice for the chest

Another good idea. Ice is generally a top priority in the desert and one has limited possibilities of ever producing ice. I want to hear more.

Solar Ice. Two opposites. :lol:

Bajaboy - 12-25-2012 at 10:30 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Ateo

Quote:

Originally posted by Bajaboy
I've thought about solar before primarily for an Engle type refer/freezer....I want something to freeze ice in order to replenish ice for the chest

Another good idea. Ice is generally a top priority in the desert and one has limited possibilities of ever producing ice. I want to hear more.

Solar Ice. Two opposites. :lol:

My preferred method for ice is to freeze gallon milk jugs. They normally last three to four days. I would love to buy an Engle so I could refreeze the jugs and extend my ice range. But I have been too lazy to do much research on solar options. I want something easy and durable.

Thanks for starting this thread...

[Edited on 12-26-2012 by Bajaboy]

Curt63 - 12-25-2012 at 10:38 PM

This might help

http://forums.bajanomad.com/viewthread.php?tid=52727#pid6197...

Bob and Susan - 12-26-2012 at 06:22 AM

if you are not camping for months then just get a QUIET honda 2000

why have the extra expense for solar panels$$$ charge controler and batteries

with a honda you'll be way ahead$$$

Russ - 12-26-2012 at 06:55 AM

Thunderbolt Solar Panel Kit 45 Watt
This is what I have to charge all my batteries. It really works great and has 2 lights & a charge controller. I tried it on 2 L-16 batteries and it worked on them too.
You'll probable need to copy and paste the URL below or the top line into Amazon.

http://www.amazon.com/Thunderbolt-Solar-Panel-Kit-Watt/dp/B0...

[Edited on 12-26-2012 by Russ]

Solar kit.jpg - 41kB

Hook - 12-26-2012 at 07:38 AM

You seem to be talking about two very different needs in describing "items" and then being able to make ice. The needs, in terms of batteries and charging systems, are very different.

Are your "items" simply charging batteries like cell phones, laptops, cameras, electric toothbrush? Or does it move more into your car stereo and a TV or ?

Really, you need to tell us everything you might need to charge.

BTW, if you're not REALLY joking, a blender can be easily run on an inverter with your car engine running.

I have a cabover camper with a 6 cu. ft absorption fridge in it. I also took my Engle type 45 qt. 12v with me this summer. It was sure nice not having to buy ice even one time, while traveling the Western US in August and September. I used the absorption fridge to keep all foodstuffs in it that were not liquid, as well as making ice in the freezer portion of it. We just got in the habit of filling the ice trays with fresh water whenever we got into camp and moving the finished cubes into a ziplock next to the trays. Standard sized cubes were done, overnight. You really dont need THAT much ice if all it's used for is adding to drinks. It's easy to stay ahead.

You can also run the absorption fridge at higher temps (~40F) to better preserve veges and keep things like butter a bit softer.

All liquid products stayed in the compressor fridge. That is a swing compressor and it draws about 2.1 amps @ 12v, WHEN RUNNING. That thing is so darn efficient we had to keep it at a little under 2 (on a scale of 1-5) to prevent freezing drinks.

No television for us, at least at this time. So, the biggest draw, by far, is when we occasionally have to run the furnace on a cold night at elevation. That even far exceeds the fridges and any lights we run from dusk till sleep (~3 hours). Of course, the fan might be running, off and on, for 6-8 hours, with no solar supplement in the dark.

Coffee is boiled water and a French press.

I only have room for a single battery. So, I went with a Lifeline GPH 31XT battery, powered by a 140 watt Kyocera panel through a Morningstar Sunsaver Duo controller. I liked having a controller that would charge the house and the truck battery independently. I simply wired the second battery bank leads to the truck battery side of my battery separator. With the SunSaver Duo, you can set it to deliver a 50-50 mix to both batteries OR a 90-10 mix, favoring the house battery. When either battery is fully charged, it reverts all charging to the other one. This setup keeps up with all my needs.

We'll see how long the Lifeline lasts. Pretty pricy for basically a faster charge rate. I could buy 2 standard group 31 lead/acid batteries for the cost of this.

I have a built-in generator. Rarely use it. Mostly for the microwave. Really dont use the A/C much.

With this setup, the only limiting factor that determined how long we could stay in a remote camp was the amount of fresh water we could carry.

If your electrical needs turn out to be minimal, I'd consider upgrading the battery on your vehicle and getting a decent inverter you can hook directly to your battery, either with clips or replacing the wiring and fuse in your "cigarette lighter" outlet. Unless it's a diesel, I'd take that over everything associated with running a generator (fuel can, funnel, fumes, storage for the genny and fuel can, electrical cord, power bar). Just idle the vehicle engine for occasional charging and high demand needs. A diesel is too noisy to do that, though, IMO. I have one, I know.

[Edited on 12-26-2012 by Hook]

monoloco - 12-26-2012 at 07:43 AM

For an Engle fridge set to freeze you will need at least 100 watts of panel. I ran mine on freeze for a winter with 3) 55watt panels and the largest Costco marine battery I could get. If you use the Engle as a fridge turning it down during the day and up at night you could get by with a smaller system but when set to freeze, especially if you are freezing gallon jugs, it will run almost constantly.

Hook - 12-26-2012 at 08:00 AM

I can confirm what Mono is saying about the Engel draw on freeze. It's non-stop running and can take over 24 hours to freeze a completely thawed gallon bottle, especially if it is more than one.

Mono, are you then loading the frozen gallon bottles into an ice chest for your foodstuffs and drinks?

landyacht318 - 12-26-2012 at 08:07 AM

Engel=Norcold=Sawafuji compressor.

If Compressor noise and vibration will be a factor, get a danfoss compressor powered fridge. These are rechargeable, and the compressor speed can be adjusted to dial it in for a specific use.

ARB chest type fridges use danfoss compressors.

My Norcold died, I now have a danfoss powered Vitrifrigo front loader. Much quieter, and uses less battery

monoloco - 12-26-2012 at 08:16 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Hook
I can confirm what Mono is saying about the Engel draw on freeze. It's non-stop running and can take over 24 hours to freeze a completely thawed gallon bottle, especially if it is more than one.

Mono, are you then loading the frozen gallon bottles into an ice chest for your foodstuffs and drinks?

No, we live off the grid so I just use mine as a deep freeze, but I know if someone wanted to freeze jugs and use them that way, it would run constantly. I love traveling with the Engel in the back seat for all our beverages and snacks but found it will run the truck batteries down pretty quick if I use it to freeze fish while camping.

Hook - 12-26-2012 at 08:17 AM

As I recall, Danfoss's draw between 6 and 7 amps at 12v, when running. How do you figure they use "less battery"?

Finding replacement parts for many of them, especially the ones from Australia, is a real pain, too.

wilderone - 12-26-2012 at 08:42 AM

Margaritas:

http://www.everythingkitchens.com/waring_TG15.html?gclid=CLe...

Ateo - 12-26-2012 at 09:12 AM

Thanks all for your contributions. I think what I need is something like Russ posted. Simple charging of phones, a light or 2...........nothing major.

woody with a view - 12-26-2012 at 09:17 AM

get the inverter. it'll charge the phone that you can't use anyway. propane for cooking and lighting. get a 2way or 3 way fridge from a RV and run it on propane to keep your stuff cold. ice is around $1000 for a unit.

Hook - 12-26-2012 at 09:22 AM

Quote:

I love traveling with the Engel in the back seat for all our beverages and snacks but found it will run the truck batteries down pretty quick if I use it to freeze fish while camping.

Yep, that's how I found out the limitation of my truck batterie(s). I was trying to freeze fillets over a three day period and after the second day and night of running the Engel, it had drained BOTH of my large truck batteries. I needed a jump.

After that I started researching solar panels...................

msteve1014 - 12-26-2012 at 01:37 PM

I have the arb reefer. It takes 2 85 watt panels to keep up when it is hot outside. My panals are old, but yours will be old some day too. Freezing 1 gallon jugs will take a long time. Freezing a days catch of fish is not a problem.I have a lot of batteries, but that only comes in to play if you have a long time with no charging.

BajaNomad - 12-26-2012 at 01:59 PM

Perhaps overkill for Ateo based upon what has been posted... but thought it worth sharing in this thread topic. I have zero experience with solar thus far, so don't know how the specs match up with the other possibilities. Still like the slick portable aspect of this though...

Features:
2 Universal AC Outlets
2 DC Outlets with auto-reset, circuit breaker
2 USB Power Ports to charge cell phones, MP3 players, tablets & e-readers, and laptops
Digital voltmeter for checking battery status
AC recharging adapter
DC recharging adapter (fused)
Has terminals for solar panel expansion
Collapsible handle & wheels for easy transport
Hidden storage compartment

Charging Times
Initial AC charge: up to 24 hours
Solar panel charging time: 16 hours peak sunlight

Specifications
Dimensions: 53 × 53 × 37 cm
Weight: 38.2 kg (84 lbs

http://www.wagan.com/index.php?page=shop.product_details&...

[Edited on 12-26-2012 by BajaNomad]

landyacht318 - 12-26-2012 at 02:22 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Hook
As I recall, Danfoss's draw between 6 and 7 amps at 12v, when running. How do you figure they use "less battery"?

Finding replacement parts for many of them, especially the ones from Australia, is a real pain, too.

landyacht318 - 12-26-2012 at 02:30 PM

Danfoss makes many different compressors. the BD 35 compressor is good upto 6 cubic feet with a third of that being the freezer compartment.

At 2000 RPM the Danfoss bd35 pulls about 2.4 amps after a minute or 2. At 3500 RPM it pulls close to 6 amps. A simple resistor placed in the thermostat circuit allows one to decide on compressor rpm

The BD-50 is the exact same size as the 35, the 50's compressor has a bigger stroke and pulls more electricity.

The compressors themselves have no serviceable parts. The electronic controllers are easily available anywhere, but not cheap(200+$), and the condenser fans are standard computer fans, also easily replaced.

My old 1.7 cubic foot Norcold pulled 2.7 amps when the compressor was running, and had about a 30% duty cycle at 75f
My new 1.8 cubic foot Danfoss powered Vitrifrigo pulls about 2.4 amps and is down around 25% duty cycle at the same ambient temperatures.

Alm - 12-26-2012 at 02:56 PM

Ateo - it depends on what kind of camping: car, trailer or what.

You may want to check the Tech Issues section of the Open Roads forum. They will probably tell you to do your "energy audit" first.

Russ and others gave you some estimates on what you can expect from a "portable" setup. In a nutshell - very, very little. Assuming a minimalist style camping, without 12V fridge or any 120V gadgets like coffee maker or toaster, you need at least 120W panel to cover your daily needs. This is a sheet about 4x3 ft, weight 20 lbs. "Portable", yes, though with some pain. You can lean it on the South side against the trailer tongue or whatever you have, and get 30-40 Ah a day in winter. This will let you run your propane fridge (yes, it does need a little 12V power) and a few lights and a CD/radio. You will have enough energy left to charge your phone, and this is it. You probably won't be able to run a laptop. You won't be able to run a furnace. You will have to make coffee on gas stove and cook and reheat leftovers (if any) on gas stove too. People have been doing it for centuries so this is doable.

You MIGHT try and squeeze a very small 12V compressor fridge in this energy budget if you insulate it well with Styrene sheets. Considering the cost, and the fact that even on a cold day it will draw at least same 10 Ah a day as the circuit of a propane fridge - doesn't make much sense if you already have a propane fridge. For a car camping without propane fridge I would consider one of Engel-like top-loaders. Engels are costly. There are good top-loaders by other brands too (Dometic/Waeco, I think). Avoid Norcold 12V fridges. Good thing about top-loaders is that they are portable, but in a trailer you want a built-in fridge like Vitrifrigo that Landyacht bought (expensive too). Again, if you already have an absorption propane fridge and it works, - you don't have to replace it with 12V compressor model.

The cost of a small solar, including cables and controller, will be $2-$2.50 per watt. More if you go for one of those "kits". You will also have to add a second battery, to have a safety margin for cloudy days.

People with 500W-600W panels and huge battery banks run everything including medium-size 12V fridge off solar, saving a bit of money on propane and generator fuel, but this is not your situation.

For a "weekend warrior" there is a proven solution - a lot of batteries. You will deplete them to 30% or 40% SOC by the end of the day 3, and then recharge at home. No solar. Works for trailers, not so much for car camping.

There are no "quiet" generators, IMO. The quietest of them can be heard for hundreds yards in a calm weather. You will need an enclosure or dig a hole in the ground if you don't want your neighbors to hate you (unless they have an old generator louder than yours, and then you will hate them).

[Edited on 12-26-2012 by Alm]

Russ - 12-26-2012 at 04:31 PM

I agree, "There are no "quiet" generators".
Talk about a total distraction to a "quiet" evening.
"Isn't our generator quiet? It's a Honda."
WHAT ! If I can hear how quiet it is then it ain't QUIET!
:fire:

duh.....

mtgoat666 - 12-26-2012 at 04:38 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Russ
I agree, "There are no "quiet" generators".
Talk about a total distraction to a "quiet" evening.
"Isn't our generator quiet? It's a Honda."
WHAT ! If I can hear how quiet it is then it ain't QUIET!
:fire:

duh.....

nothing worse than camping near someone with a generator!

personally, my car-camping energy use is built around a coleman 2-burner camp stove and ice chest. lighting is battery-powered-LED or camp fuel lamp. can last for quite a while, and not much fuss.

Alm - 12-26-2012 at 06:56 PM

It's all about level of comfort that one needs - or thinks that he needs. To me, noise is too high price to pay for any comfort other than heat on really cold nights. Furnace needs a lot of power, though you can get away with a good sleeping bag or a down duvet. Permanent residents in RV parks sometimes have good enclosures and I can't hear their generators. And sometimes they have a derelict diesel circa 1945 that you hear even through the shed that it's housed in. Transients usually have their generators uncovered. It's not absolutely necessary to carry a generator if you only camp for a few days - if it's a trailer, get a couple more batteries, if it's a car, get enough dry foods and an ice chest.

Basically, on a short stay you need a fridge or ice chest for drinks only. It's easy enough to carry a week supply of proteins and other nutrients in a form that needs no refrigeration.

Hook - 12-26-2012 at 08:13 PM

Quote:

Yeah, but camping near a guy with a blazing camp fuel lamp is right up there.

willardguy - 12-26-2012 at 08:18 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Hook

Quote:

Yeah, but camping near a guy with a blazing camp fuel lamp is right up there.

not to mention those blinding LED lights! :lol:

BajaNomad - 12-27-2012 at 12:57 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by BajaNomad

http://www.wagan.com/index.php?page=shop.product_details&...

Follow-up....

Didn't remember where I'd come across this prior... but was reminded tonight when I went to Costco in Carmel Mtn Ranch area of San Diego... they have them there for $699.xx.

Hook - 12-27-2012 at 02:52 AM

That IS a well thought out design. Too bad the battery is only a 55 ah battery, though it is an AGM. Probably good enough for most applications.

But look at that full charge spec for solar. 16 hours at full sun. That's not possible, is it?

It would be nice if it had a 12 DC input, so you could charge it from your alternator while driving. Not sure what those comments mean at the bottom of the link that reads "Additional batteries can also be connected. Includes AC & DC chargers." Maybe it can be charged externally from a DC source.

Cheaper than a Honda 1000. Certainly quieter.

Ateo - 12-27-2012 at 08:55 AM

Thanks again all for taking the time to post and research. I'm doing simple car camping and need a little extra power to charge stuff from time to time. The unit Russ posted looks about right. Although that $699 unit that BajaNomad posted is pretty cool -- but a bit much for what I need. =)

monoloco - 12-27-2012 at 09:46 AM

You would get more bang for you buck by putting together your own system, solar panels are dirt cheap now and used ones come up on craigslist all the time. For car camping I would go with a 75-100 watt panel, cheap PWM controller, a 300 watt Morninstar true sinewave inverter, and a 100-150 ah AGM battery. This would provide you with enough juice for lights, charging, computer, blender, music, and running an Engle as a refrigerator. For around $500 you would then have a quality system that you could expand on if you wanted.

[Edited on 12-27-2012 by monoloco]

Russ - 12-27-2012 at 09:51 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by monoloco
You would get more bang for you buck by putting together your own system, solar panels are dirt cheap now and used ones come up on craigslist all the time. For car camping I would go with a 75-100 watt panel, cheap PWM controller, a 300 watt Morninstar true sinewave inverter, and a 100-150 ah AGM battery. This would provide you with enough juice for lights, charging, computer, blender, music, and running an Engle as a refrigerator. You would then have a quality system that you could expand on if you wanted.

Yes! by far the greatest value and a true sinewave inverter will save the motors from early retirement and other things too.

Kiss..keep it simple !!

captkw - 12-27-2012 at 09:59 AM

my self cant stand gens or coleman laterns..soft yellow led on speaker wires work great for night lights and depending on your car/truck you can install a high amp alternator and extra battery...if you need a gen for camping I say ""get a clue""............K&T

Bugman - 12-27-2012 at 10:26 AM

I am not all that keen on the generator noise either but you just can't beat it for long term stays in remote areas. I often go into Agua Verde for 6 or 7 days at a time and a block of ice just won't last that long. I have an Engel 45qt fridge/freezer that I take with me and can run it off the car when driving or off the electricity when in town. It works great for that but when camping I will fire up my Honda EU 1000 and make sure it is on the eco setting. This way it is very quiet and you honestly can't hear it over the ocean noise until you are in camp. We run it off and on during the day and then have it on in the evening while we cook dinner, but by 9:00 or 10:00 at the latest we shut everything down and don't turn it on again until mid morning. The Engel holds the temp well overnight so there is no need to run the generator for it until it heats up again around mid morning. For a week long stay I only need to use about 2-3 gallons of gas. Works for me......... :cool:

edm1 - 12-27-2012 at 12:47 PM

Wish we could KISS with battery power! Simple means inexpensive in the short term, unfortunately, and more expensive in the long term. Batteries are the most often replaced consumable and they are fairly expensive. Simple charge controllers, inverters and combiners, unfortunately will not take good care of the batteries. Been there, done that. Now i'm doing the reverse of simple on my RV, where the accessories, monitors, and cabling cost more than the battery bank (of 6 batteries, 660AH) and solar panels (450W total). When you eliminate the guesswork, you know your power system is performing optimally.

David K - 12-27-2012 at 12:53 PM

Hi Art... Please do a report on your system... because you do it right!

Happy New Year to you and your family!

Hook - 12-27-2012 at 01:21 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by edm1
Wish we could KISS with battery power! Simple means inexpensive in the short term, unfortunately, and more expensive in the long term. Batteries are the most often replaced consumable and they are fairly expensive. Simple charge controllers, inverters and combiners, unfortunately will not take good care of the batteries. Been there, done that. Now i'm doing the reverse of simple on my RV, where the accessories, monitors, and cabling cost more than the battery bank (of 6 batteries, 660AH) and solar panels (450W total). When you eliminate the guesswork, you know your power system is performing optimally.

There are only a few things that will reduce the life of a battery beyond it's expected capacity. Two of them you can control; overdrawing a battery or re-charging it at too slow or fast a rate, where it either sulfates prematurely or "gasses".

The third is heat. It's difficult to do much about that in a hot climate. Batteries last longer in cooler climates, as long as they dont freeze.

You really need to have charge controllers and batter chargers that match the charging requirements specified by your battery manufacturer. There are still many "smart" chargers out there that want to float at 13.5-13.7. That will cause gassing in many AGMs.

Many AGM battery mfgrs recommend NOT floating an AGM at all. Just fully charge it and let it do it's minimal reduction in voltage while it is being stored. Then, fully charge it again when it hits 12.5 or so.

This is true about AGMs, anyway.

Oh, there are other odd failures like physical shock disrupting a cell. But not that common.

The guy I bought my Lifeline from told me that he has had some guys who live in the Pacific NW near the coast (where it almost never freezes but also never gets very hot) have gotten 10 years out of a Lifeline AGM.

monoloco - 12-27-2012 at 05:58 PM

The nice thing about AGM's is that they have a very low self-discharge rate so they are less likely to be ruined by putting them away and forgetting about them between camping trips.

805gregg - 12-27-2012 at 07:10 PM

For portable solar power check out Power Film, they make folding solar panels for the military. I have 2, 30 watt panels that hook together and I can power my boat hanging out in Catalina Island for a couple of weeks running our Engle refer, without starting our engine. They can be expensive, I got mine on sale at Amazon cheap they are military overruns with camo colors.

AGM Battery

captkw - 12-27-2012 at 07:22 PM

Faster charging rates...spill proof..never need water...no good with car/truck/rv alternators...low self discharge....less space....can save you money if set up proper for your asumned loads....in a flooded or sinking boat they still will fuction and keep the radio working (very good thing) and pumps...but the upfront cost can be HIGH !!! K&T :cool:

[Edited on 12-28-2012 by captkw]

[Edited on 12-28-2012 by captkw]

Alm - 12-27-2012 at 09:06 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Bugman
I am not all that keen on the generator noise either but you just can't beat it for long term stays in remote areas. I often go into Agua Verde for 6 or 7 days at a time and a block of ice just won't last that long. I have an Engel 45qt fridge/freezer ...

No, you can't beat it if you camp with a car. Though I doubt there is too much need in a fridge on 7 days trip - you won't get sick when drinking something non-refrigerated. Carbonated drinks are not for wilderness anyway. Black tea with lemon - real stuff or from a bottle - works well without refrigeration. Food is easier yet. Fridge on such a trip is something that you want, not something that you need.

With a trailer or camper van you can beat generator easily. 2x80W panels is all it it takes to power up your Engel and some LED lights. Probably 1x120W panel will suffice. People are camping in vans with slightly larger 12V fridges and that much panel. Van is a perfect match for weeklong offgrid trips. It has enough roof for a small solar and enough space for a properly insulated fridge in a cabinet. Landyacht that posted here, has exactly this, if my memory doesn't fail me. Portable top-loading fridges like Engel are not very efficient, the lid and walls are thin.

Alm - 12-27-2012 at 09:32 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Hook
That IS a well thought out design. Too bad the battery is only a 55 ah battery, though it is an AGM. Probably good enough for most applications.

Don't want to be too harsh, but I see only one good thing about this design - that it's mounted on a cart. Which means you need a ramp to roll it out of a trailer, so this may not be as good as it seems first.

The panel is mere 80W. This means 20 Ah a day or less, on a good sunny day in Baja winter. Twice less on a cloudy day. Enough to maintain a propane fridge, few LED lights, and charge a phone. Nothing else.

Now, to really get those 20 Ah, you need to tilt the panel at 30-40 degrees in winter. Otherwise the output will be less than 15 Ah. I am not sure how easy is to tilt this contraption.

They put a lot of emphasis on AC outputs, inverters, bla, bla, with impressive numbers like 3600 W output. But this is misleading. 80W panel would generate less than 70W after inverter, even when perfectly aimed. What they mean is that you charge it at home for a day or two, take it out, and draw 3600W, of which 3550W will be drawn from the battery and 50W from solar panel (weather permitting). With that much draw it will run the battery flat in a matter of minutes, of course.

The bottom line - get a couple of 100 Ah batteries and save your money.

All good info,but

captkw - 12-27-2012 at 09:55 PM

I'll let you in on the good stuff !!! Shhh ! dont tell anyone..... in marine apps we have to have it dailed in and the use,,care,,maintanince,,install,,all makes a big diff..If you buy a book, or kindle and study the systems that are currently avable and the pros and cons will put you way ahead of the game...most of the RV rags I see have lacking solid electrical advice IMHO...most rv's are set up for a weekend trip and not real duty-time and electricl punishment. and as stated a electrical audit and space assesment is a good first step....A small hopefully, helpfull tip...K&T :cool:

...PS,,just noted were someone posted about idleing motor for charging,,,no,no,I'll make it short..1500rpm MIN. PPS....car/rv alt. are not designed for charging,,but to maintain,, state of charge !! Fact !!

[Edited on 12-28-2012 by captkw]

[Edited on 12-28-2012 by captkw]

[Edited on 12-28-2012 by captkw]

Bob and Susan - 12-28-2012 at 07:14 AM

PS,,just noted were someone posted about idleing motor for charging,,,no,no,I'll make it short..1500rpm MIN. PPS....car/rv alt. are not designed for charging,,but to maintain,, state of charge !! Fact !!

sorry kt every time you post about electricty i wonder if you actually work on electrical systems...

if an alternator is turning it produces electricty...
(disconect your battery and see if the engine still runs if you doubt me)

newer cars have whats called a "voltage regulator" that sends current to the battery...
(newer cars are even more high tech)

it is true that at idle the amps are lower
but current is being supplied to the battery if needed...

when you use battery power
the voltage in the battery drops
even if the battery is fully charged...

since the "voltage regulator" reads voltage
it supplies extra voltage to the battery even at idle

agm batteries are ok but you can not tell
the "real" condition of the battery using ONLY voltage...

a battery with a dead cell
may start a car because the starter converts
small voltage into large power
(notice all the "windings")

the problem using agm batteries
with solar is you can't check
the "real" condition of the battery
(that's the cell condtion)

monoloco - 12-28-2012 at 07:27 AM

It is true that your vehicle will still charge a battery at idle, but you will have to let it idle for hours to charge a large capacity battery that is discharged. It's a very inefficient way to charge a battery.
The trouble with FLA batteries is that you need to check the cell condition all the time because they gas, need to be watered, and self-discharge at a high rate.

Bob and Susan - 12-28-2012 at 07:49 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by monoloco
It is true that your vehicle will still charge a battery at idle, but you will have to let it idle for hours to charge a large capacity battery that is discharged.

that depends on if you have a 30 amp alternator or a 200 amp alternator...the new cars have way better systems

monoloco - 12-28-2012 at 08:05 AM

I don't know of any vehicles that come with a 200 amp alternator, maybe some of the new diesel trucks, most vehicle come with a 60-120 amp alternator but put out considerably less at idle. I know from experience that it takes a very long time to fully charge the batteries in my F350 at idle when they are depleted.

[Edited on 12-28-2012 by monoloco]

Bob and Susan - 12-28-2012 at 08:14 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by monoloco
I don't know of any vehicles that come with a 200 amp alternator, maybe some of the new diesel trucks, most vehicle come with a 60-120 amp alternator but put out considerably less at idle. I know from experience that it takes a very long time to fully charge the batteries in my F350 at idle when they are depleted.
[Edited on 12-28-2012 by monoloco]

newer fords and chevys come with 200 amp alternators
and they are expensive...thanks for warranties

trucks and cars

if you are depleting your batteries in your f350 maybe you should look into a larger alternator
the actual size is the same
tech is just better

[Edited on 12-28-2012 by Bob and Susan]

BOB

captkw - 12-28-2012 at 10:26 AM

Hola,& happy holidays..BTW I learned by age of 20 all guys are mechcanic and electricians and you seem to fit in that group .. I not trying to insult you but you dont really understand electrical systems & batterys..That said If you can prove me wrong on ANY of my electrical post's I'll send A $1000 dl to doug to be given to a baja dog rescue he sees fit !! I'm tired of trying to help other folks and then you shoot your mouth off and its easy to say you do not know what the hell your talking about in regard to electrical..ABYC...NEMA,,,CFR..UL...NMEA 0183 & 2000...K&W :cool:

[Edited on 12-28-2012 by captkw]

alternators

captkw - 12-28-2012 at 10:29 AM

BOb. Just to let you know the simple FACT !! they are rated hot or cold and at 3000 RPM...they put out very little at idle..Geez ,,I just had my coffeee and reread your post BOB,,you really dont know a damn thing..disconnect your battery...are you really that ST--ID that will instaly blow some diodes and the reg !!!...PS..the main tool in my box next my brain and time on the job and my "fluke"............... Stick to making tacos BOB !!!!

[Edited on 12-28-2012 by captkw]

[Edited on 12-28-2012 by captkw]

[Edited on 12-28-2012 by captkw]

[Edited on 12-28-2012 by captkw]

Terry28 - 12-28-2012 at 10:43 AM

Popcorn time!!

larryC - 12-28-2012 at 10:51 AM

Solar is neat and I am a big fan, but what works best for me when I am camping is a 1000 watt Honda. It is small, quiet, runs a long time on a gallon of gas, and puts out alot of power. Will charge batteries pretty well with its own built in charger or you can plug in a larger capacity charger to help out. I don't like gen noise either so I have a 100' extension cord and I put it away from camp, can't hear it at all. Mine has been vey reliable and starts first or second pull most of the time.
Your mileage may vary.
Larry

monoloco - 12-28-2012 at 11:03 AM

Quote:

if you are depleting your batteries in your f350 maybe you should look into a larger alternator
the actual size is the same
tech is just better

[Edited on 12-28-2012 by Bob and Susan]

I don't normally deplete my batteries but I have a few times from letting it sit too long with out running it and I know that to recharge them by idling the truck would take several hours as opposed to 30 minutes while running down the highway. I'm no electrician but I suspect that even a 200 amp alternator doesn't put out much when your vehicle is turning 6-700 RPM.

Bob and Susan - 12-28-2012 at 12:03 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by captkw
...That said If you can prove me wrong on ANY of my electrical post's I'll send A $1000 dl to doug to be given to a baja dog rescue he sees fit

...you really dont know a damn thing..disconnect your battery...are you really that ST--ID that will instaly blow some diodes and the reg !!!...PS..the main tool in my box next my brain and time on the job and my "fluke"............... Stick to making tacos BOB !!!!

if you run a generator nothing happens

if you run an alternator
all you need is a resistor to keep the ac current from spiking
then remove the battery

if the engine keeps running the alternator is good

send the $1000 to doug...

willardguy - 12-28-2012 at 12:13 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Bob and Susan

Quote:

wouldnt it be easier to just measure voltage at the battery looking for something around 14 volts? :?:

wrong////fail..BBBZZZZ

captkw - 12-28-2012 at 12:23 PM

If you install a diode you can get away without a load !! check out Zap stop,,NEXT........Im rewireing two yachts right now but its around 39 degrees and rainy so no work today but will sit here and take on ANY electrical challenges !!! K&T

[Edited on 12-28-2012 by captkw]

[Edited on 12-28-2012 by captkw]

Alm - 12-28-2012 at 01:16 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by captkw
..... in marine apps we have to have it dailed in and the use,,care,,maintanince,,install,,all makes a big diff..If you buy a book, or kindle and study the systems that are currently avable and the pros and cons will put you way ahead of the game...most of the RV rags I see have lacking solid electrical advice IMHO...most rv's are set up for a weekend trip and not real duty-time and electricl punishment.

Sometimes Cap really knows what he is saying. Most RV users have little to none knowledge of electricity. It's not difficult to learn, but it takes time and effort, and most people are unwilling. What's worse, the solar industry is home-oriented, there are kits and specialized crews to cover your roof with panels, they charge a lot, but at least the service is there. With RVs 99% of systems are made by users from the scratch, often with poor results because they don't know what they are doing. Didn't take time to learn.

There is Handy Bob's blog. Just read and relax. Engineers won't agree with some of his points, but mostly he is right in his observations. The net result speaks for itself. He is living full time off 345W tilted solar panels, using microwave and power tools when he needs to. No generator. No 12V fridge though. A simpler flat installation and same propane fridge he would require 600W panel, which is doable on most trailers. He is not a good teacher, though. I know most of this stuff already and just having fun reading his blog.

I see the side discussion on charging from a car alternator. This won't work for 7 days stay on the camp. More noise, more fumes, more fuel. If somebody really wants to run a fridge and don't want 120-160W solar, - get a generator.

Dometic/norcold

captkw - 12-28-2012 at 01:29 PM

They dont need any voltage unless for the peizo starter and thats easy to deal with...Aborption fridge runs on propane !! relieable and wotk rather well if set up correctly..compressor fridges suck pwr vs a propane fridge..funny,,, guys stand in line to pay me 95hr for my skills & here I get a guy (bob) that trys to tell me my profession !!!! go figure !! still behind the counter at 7/11 LOL...K&T :cool:

....PS...12 volt fridge is about as usefull as a empty six pack !!! propane works !! my folks on the east cape have 2 sorels from the fiftes that run on propane and thats a test of stamina !!! duty,, real world testing !!!

[Edited on 12-28-2012 by captkw]

[Edited on 12-29-2012 by captkw]

Bob and Susan - 12-28-2012 at 01:34 PM

for vacation camping i'd too go with a generator...but not a noisy "harbor freight" unit

a honda eu2000 or a eu1000 these things are really quiet...i would get the service warranty...they can break

way lighter too...batterys are HEAVY

....
on the other note...capt needs to pay up...

i said resistor...they look like a transformer...any real electrical store sells them

you "hook" one side to the positive cable and one to the negative cable
then remove the battery

works EVERY time...if the alternator is good the engine continues to run...if not it dies

[Edited on 12-28-2012 by Bob and Susan]

are you out of your mind ???

captkw - 12-28-2012 at 01:44 PM

I'm a electrical GURU aka engineer with about 40yrs hands on and study...you are likely referring to a ballest resister that might look like a transformer to you !! be aware tranformers can also be torridal.....BOB..you are in over your head here........,no cookie for you !!! Lets start with OHMs law,,,guass,,joule...coulomb and thats of the top of my head...till you come up with signs of electrical knowadge I wil not respond to your foolish jabs at something you dont have aclue about......enjoy the weather and I'm buying the drinks...K&T

Bob and Susan - 12-28-2012 at 02:00 PM

see you can't say why it doesnt work because it does...

the alternator "sometimes" will spike current
the battery buffers the car electronics like a battery in a laptop does for a computer using "un-clean" energy

if you put a resistor as a replacement "battery" you buffer the car electronics

it is really simple for a car electrician to understand...we simpletons need to understand it in our language not in
"OHMs law,,,guass,,joule...coulomb" who talks like that?

Alm - 12-28-2012 at 03:15 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by captkw
They dont need any voltage unless for the peizo starter and thats easy to deal with...Aborption fridge runs on propane !!

Sorry Cap, but no, only very old LP fridges with mechanical thermostat don't need 12V voltage. Majority of units made in the last 5 or 7 years - if not all - need 12V for thermostat and to open-close the gas flow. Count on 10-15 Ah draw per 24 hours.

And No, they are not very reliable. Less reliable than 120V or 12V compressors, and more maintenance. Some 12V compressor fridges are junk too, not made for salty air close to the sea.

learnig every day

captkw - 12-28-2012 at 03:32 PM

I have not worked on any of the new ones,,and I'm not surprizzed..But they dont need much current,,no?? I have repaired a lot of dometics that I guess your right about 6/7 years old and they did not Have to have ac/dc for the safety valve...last year I worked on a norcold (bad element) on the 120 v side and was greeted with a few controlboards with Ics,,fet,zenors and alot of stuff I felt was bad designed IMHO..fridge,,stove,toilet,,toilet paper should be kept simple!! PS just reraead Alm post...thats a lot of wasteful draw...is that a solinoid gas shut off valve draw !!! if so...bypass the damn thing..LOL

[Edited on 12-28-2012 by captkw]

[Edited on 12-28-2012 by captkw]

landyacht318 - 12-28-2012 at 03:36 PM

I hope no one here decides to test their automotive charging system by disconnecting the battery with the engine running.

File this one under old wive's tales which should have been buried with the mentally unstable and malicious wife, back in the '70's.

Engine computers are not cheap.

And confusing a resistor with a capacitor and the capabilities of either is most amusing and leads me to believe someone is being humorously engaged in the holiday happy sauce.

landyacht318

captkw - 12-28-2012 at 03:42 PM

Hola,well said and is your "name" have anything to do with chrysler ?????

landyacht318 - 12-28-2012 at 03:45 PM

One guy over on RV net posted the 24 hour amp draw of his modern absorption fridge, and it was, IIRC, almost an amp hour per hour.

That is more than my Danfoss powered Compressor fridge uses 75% of the time, and I save the propane for cooking.

Also have to take into account that many absorption fridges can't maintain sub 40 degree interior temps in 90+ degree ambients, and many require extra fans to do so in 80+ ambients.

Don't get started on the unlevel operation aspect of Absorption fridges, nor the modern cost cutting techniques employed by most manufacturers.

landyacht318 - 12-28-2012 at 03:48 PM

The 318 is a good engine, though I do wish I picked a different handle back in '07

318...

captkw - 12-28-2012 at 03:53 PM

my boat tower 77 360 with around 400K miles and the heads have never been off...and the only electrical is headlight,brakelight,horn,wiper,heater fan and running lights..talk about Kiss..but after parking and waking away from her,, you will hear a load burp !!! she has a bit of a drinking problem......

landyacht318 - 12-28-2012 at 04:15 PM

Yeah, LA era SB mopars are not the most efficient or powerful but KISS definitely applies to them.

And My hot alternator output at idle speeds is truly pathetic, so I no longer Idle to recharge, but this was not always true, and ignorance was bliss, at least until the batteries and alternators kept needing early replacement.

Alm - 12-28-2012 at 04:35 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by landyacht318
One guy over on RV net posted the 24 hour amp draw of his modern absorption fridge, and it was, IIRC, almost an amp hour per hour.

That is more than my Danfoss powered Compressor fridge uses 75% of the time, and I save the propane for cooking.

Every one situation is different - what model, climate, how often to open the door, and so on. Some absorption (propane) models have features like door defroster, and then it draws more amps. But all of them draw some. Most RV report 12-15 Ah a day for a typical 6 cu.ft propane fridge. 24 Ah a day seems too high, but possible with fridges larger than 8 cu.ft and a lot of bells and whistles.

Note that 12-15 Ah a day is for a 6 cu.ft propane model. A comparable size 12V compressor fridge, even with added insulation, would draw at least 40 Ah a day, depending on the ambient temperature. You see, LP fridge in hot weather needs more gas, but its 12V draw doesn't increase much. Compressor fridge in hot weather needs more Ah because this is its "fuel". When ambient rises from 70 to 90, the compressor fridge daily draw rises from, say, 40 t0 70 Ah.

[Edited on 12-28-2012 by Alm]

mtgoat666 - 12-28-2012 at 04:38 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Bob and Susan
"OHMs law,,,guass,,joule...coulomb" who talks like that?

answer: millions of scientists, engineers and electricians -- including the guys/gals that designed the computer and internet you used to post that silly question! :lol:

Hook - 12-28-2012 at 06:24 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by landyacht318
Danfoss makes many different compressors. the BD 35 compressor is good upto 6 cubic feet with a third of that being the freezer compartment.

At 2000 RPM the Danfoss bd35 pulls about 2.4 amps after a minute or 2. At 3500 RPM it pulls close to 6 amps. A simple resistor placed in the thermostat circuit allows one to decide on compressor rpm

The BD-50 is the exact same size as the 35, the 50's compressor has a bigger stroke and pulls more electricity.

The compressors themselves have no serviceable parts. The electronic controllers are easily available anywhere, but not cheap(200+$), and the condenser fans are standard computer fans, also easily replaced.

My old 1.7 cubic foot Norcold pulled 2.7 amps when the compressor was running, and had about a 30% duty cycle at 75f
My new 1.8 cubic foot Danfoss powered Vitrifrigo pulls about 2.4 amps and is down around 25% duty cycle at the same ambient temperatures.

My Norcold is still running after 8 years. Usually it is not very quiet but for some reason, it cycles very quietly about 30% of start ups.

Are you worried about the controller board on yours? Many stories of them going bad controlling the BD-35.

My information about the Danfoss draw was with the Waeco units. How does the Vitrifrigo achieve so much less draw? Simply the resistor? Better insulation reduces the duty cycle, as compared to the Waecos?

What did your cost?

landyacht318 - 12-28-2012 at 08:14 PM

Most of the Danfoss controller failures I've read about are due to heat and usually these are on older marine installations units that use watercooled condensers and have inadquate airflow over the compressor due to a lack of a fan nearby and inadequate natural ventilation in the area in which the compressor and controller is installed.

The latest models of Danfoss controllers have a rather large heat sink on the back of them. Also they stress hooking the power leads right to the battery rather than a shared buss to relays or other power surge sources that might screw with the controller. My Controller is a DC only Model. AC/DC models are available, and even a controller which automatically changes compressor speeds according to load placed in the fridge. The AC/DC version of my Fridge was another 100$. I decided to put that 100$ toward a real converter/charger which would both power the fridge, every other 12 volt device, and charge the batteries at a high rate whenever 120Vac grid power is available.

As Alm stated, my Fridge is in a camper Van, and the compressor is minimum of about 2 feet from my head when sleeping. I now have 200 watts on my roof, and Can run my fridge pretty much indefinitely, except perhaps in the PacNW in winter.

I spent dozens of hours Isolating the Norcold fridge from the cabinet to minimize both vibration and sound and achieved good reductions in both. It was literally floating in a soft foam cushion with no hard attachment points, and still too loud, and would vibrate the whole dang van.

My VitriFrigo is surrounded by an additional 3/4" foam board insulation, and this is then shoehorned into a insulated cabinet, because no real vibration isolation is needed. The Danfoss makes almost no vibrations and about 1/3 the noise though the initial compressor startup is more abrupt than the SawaFuji compressor employed by Norcold and Engel.

My IR thermometer at various stages of installation and insulation addition has shown the extra insulation to be very effective. The Door itself is now the weak spot in terms of insulation as in humid weather, the Stainless steel door face I added sweats.

Part of the reason, besides the small size of the fridge, for the low consumption numbers is how I have the condenser ventilated. I purchased a different 120mm computer fan and installed it so it pushes air through the condenser rather than pull it through. Cooler air is drawn from the floor below the fridge, is pushed through the condenser, across the compressor and controller, and out a vent. It has no chance whatsoever of recycling any preheated air. The Fan I substituted is quieter than the original and draws 1/2 the current. The Van itself rarely exceeds ambient temperatures with the use of window shades and more computer fans.

I do have an amp hour counter I monitor frequently so my consumption numbers are not just a guess, or like many MPG claims you see on the internet, vastly exaggerated. My claims are based on minimal door openings of short duration. Obviously adding warm food/beer and multiple door openings increase the consumption.

I also have added a 40 mm 5.6 cubic foot per minute, 0.03 amp computer fan inside the freezer compartment. It runs 24/7. This keeps the internal temps much more even, and allows a lesser setting on the t stat. A setting 2 out of 7 keeps the interior about 36.5 degrees F. Without the interior fan a setting nearly 4 out of 7 would be needed for and average 36.5 degrees, but parts of the floor would be 31 and other parts would be in the mid 40's.

I am not claiming the interior fan itself reduces overall battery consumption. It adds a small amount of heat which must then be removed. However It allows food within to be cooled down faster, and when I have solar excess available( most days), or alternator power available, I can more easily and more quickly, lower the temperature of the contents with the thermostat. Then at sundown or engine shutdown, return the setting to normal and the duty cycle is then significantly lower as the interior contents slowly rise from ~32f back up to 36.5f or higher overnight.

All the different manufacturers of compressor fridges which use the Danfoss BD 35f compressors choose the compressor speeds according to the size of the condenser, its fan and evaporator plate and intended function for the size of the fridge. Some want faster cool down times and select higher compressor speeds. Mine came with a 270 ohm resistor to increase compressor speed to 2500rpm. Since mine basically runs 24/7/ 11 months a year, quick cool down times are not important, compared to overall efficiency, and the slowest compressor speed which allows sub 40 box temps and less than a 50% duty cycle is most efficient, so I removed the resistor for the slowest compressor speed of 2000rpm.

Your Figures for the Waeco/Dometic/Adler barbor/Tundra(all are now the same company/ subsidiary now) are not incorrect. Danfoss compressors comes in different flavors and the manufacturers select how fast they want to run the compressor, and they can indeed draw 6+ amps at 3500 rpm though this would be extremely overkill for my size Fridge.

Also the consumption figures listed by different manufacturers are unclear as to whether that is compressor consumption while running, or average amount consumed over an hour, and perhaps intentionally so

VitriFrigo is assembled in Italy. I spent 600$ on the c51is with free shipping, though that price has increased to $630 last I saw.

I could have bought a very similar Chinese assembled TruckFridge with the Danfoss for 100$ less. These seem to use a different thermostat dial, slightly different condenser with a smaller fan placed on it. I think Vinny cares a little more than Chin Ho about the workmanship/ fit and finish, and I do not think my condenser fan relocation would have been possible with the Chinese version.

There are now some chest style compressor fridges out there now which are using a Knockoff of a Danfoss compressor. Edgestar is one brand. They also have variable compressor speeds and you can get these chest style fridges for under 300$. Reviews of these range widely.

Couldit have said it better myself.. LOL

captkw - 12-28-2012 at 08:53 PM

Nice post !! :bounce:

Hook - 12-28-2012 at 09:14 PM

Thank you for taking the time to write such a detailed reply. Very edifying for me.

Yes, the Edgestars have gotten a number of bad reviews. Same ol story from China. Little or no QC. Brand new units arrive non-op.

Having the Norcold has really extended the range of my Dometic absorp fridge. It is a 2002 model that had some issues when I got the camper used. The Dometic main board was replaced with a Dinosaur and the T-coupler went. But I can still get 50 or > degrees below ambient temps that are 90 or below. Having all drinks in the Norcold really helps.

There is no way I could ever go all-compressor fridge. I just dont have the battery capacity or space for more, nor the area for the needed solar panels. And traveling in the mountains of the US and Canada in August and Sept, you get your share of overcast days.

As I live in the low desert of Sonora for 10 months, I really have no desire to spend much time in hot deserts when I travel the US. We want to be in the mountains.

willardguy - 12-28-2012 at 09:45 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by landyacht318
Most of the Danfoss controller failures I've read about are due to heat and usually these are on older marine installations units that use watercooled condensers and have inadquate airflow over the compressor due to a lack of a fan nearby and inadequate natural ventilation in the area in which the compressor and controller is installed.

The latest models of Danfoss controllers have a rather large heat sink on the back of them. Also they stress hooking the power leads right to the battery rather than a shared buss to relays or other power surge sources that might screw with the controller. My Controller is a DC only Model. AC/DC models are available, and even a controller which automatically changes compressor speeds according to load placed in the fridge. The AC/DC version of my Fridge was another 100$. I decided to put that 100$ toward a real converter/charger which would both power the fridge, every other 12 volt device, and charge the batteries at a high rate whenever 120Vac grid power is available.

As Alm stated, my Fridge is in a camper Van, and the compressor is minimum of about 2 feet from my head when sleeping. I now have 200 watts on my roof, and Can run my fridge pretty much indefinitely, except perhaps in the PacNW in winter.

I spent dozens of hours Isolating the Norcold fridge from the cabinet to minimize both vibration and sound and achieved good reductions in both. It was literally floating in a soft foam cushion with no hard attachment points, and still too loud, and would vibrate the whole dang van.

My VitriFrigo is surrounded by an additional 3/4" foam board insulation, and this is then shoehorned into a insulated cabinet, because no real vibration isolation is needed. The Danfoss makes almost no vibrations and about 1/3 the noise though the initial compressor startup is more abrupt than the SawaFuji compressor employed by Norcold and Engel.

My IR thermometer at various stages of installation and insulation addition has shown the extra insulation to be very effective. The Door itself is now the weak spot in terms of insulation as in humid weather, the Stainless steel door face I added sweats.

Part of the reason, besides the small size of the fridge, for the low consumption numbers is how I have the condenser ventilated. I purchased a different 120mm computer fan and installed it so it pushes air through the condenser rather than pull it through. Cooler air is drawn from the floor below the fridge, is pushed through the condenser, across the compressor and controller, and out a vent. It has no chance whatsoever of recycling any preheated air. The Fan I substituted is quieter than the original and draws 1/2 the current. The Van itself rarely exceeds ambient temperatures with the use of window shades and more computer fans.

I do have an amp hour counter I monitor frequently so my consumption numbers are not just a guess, or like many MPG claims you see on the internet, vastly exaggerated. My claims are based on minimal door openings of short duration. Obviously adding warm food/beer and multiple door openings increase the consumption.

I also have added a 40 mm 5.6 cubic foot per minute, 0.03 amp computer fan inside the freezer compartment. It runs 24/7. This keeps the internal temps much more even, and allows a lesser setting on the t stat. A setting 2 out of 7 keeps the interior about 36.5 degrees F. Without the interior fan a setting nearly 4 out of 7 would be needed for and average 36.5 degrees, but parts of the floor would be 31 and other parts would be in the mid 40's.

I am not claiming the interior fan itself reduces overall battery consumption. It adds a small amount of heat which must then be removed. However It allows food within to be cooled down faster, and when I have solar excess available( most days), or alternator power available, I can more easily and more quickly, lower the temperature of the contents with the thermostat. Then at sundown or engine shutdown, return the setting to normal and the duty cycle is then significantly lower as the interior contents slowly rise from ~32f back up to 36.5f or higher overnight.

All the different manufacturers of compressor fridges which use the Danfoss BD 35f compressors choose the compressor speeds according to the size of the condenser, its fan and evaporator plate and intended function for the size of the fridge. Some want faster cool down times and select higher compressor speeds. Mine came with a 270 ohm resistor to increase compressor speed to 2500rpm. Since mine basically runs 24/7/ 11 months a year, quick cool down times are not important, compared to overall efficiency, and the slowest compressor speed which allows sub 40 box temps and less than a 50% duty cycle is most efficient, so I removed the resistor for the slowest compressor speed of 2000rpm.

Your Figures for the Waeco/Dometic/Adler barbor/Tundra(all are now the same company/ subsidiary now) are not incorrect. Danfoss compressors comes in different flavors and the manufacturers select how fast they want to run the compressor, and they can indeed draw 6+ amps at 3500 rpm though this would be extremely overkill for my size Fridge.

Also the consumption figures listed by different manufacturers are unclear as to whether that is compressor consumption while running, or average amount consumed over an hour, and perhaps intentionally so

VitriFrigo is assembled in Italy. I spent 600$ on the c51is with free shipping, though that price has increased to $630 last I saw.

I could have bought a very similar Chinese assembled TruckFridge with the Danfoss for 100$ less. These seem to use a different thermostat dial, slightly different condenser with a smaller fan placed on it. I think Vinny cares a little more than Chin Ho about the workmanship/ fit and finish, and I do not think my condenser fan relocation would have been possible with the Chinese version.

There are now some chest style compressor fridges out there now which are using a Knockoff of a Danfoss compressor. Edgestar is one brand. They also have variable compressor speeds and you can get these chest style fridges for under 300$. Reviews of these range widely.

wrap it in some glacier bay VIP's and you'd really have a hot rod! :coolup:

nice job!

Packoderm - 12-28-2012 at 10:44 PM

I have the 3 panel setup from Harbor Freight. I usually carry one of the panels and charge up my truck battery and a Diehard jumper battery pack when they run low.

Alm - 12-28-2012 at 11:08 PM

Landyacht has done a lot of tune-up to his (already good) Vitrifrigo. Though not obvious from his post, added Styrofoam insulation around the fridge body was one of those things. Vinny is sure a better brand than unknown boxes from China, but it still comes with same thin walls as all other built-in 12V fridges.

There are also other boxes to consider with same Danfoss compressor that are cheaper than Vinny and better than knock-offs. Dometic (they purchased and re-branded former Tundra brand), Novakool (don't confuse it with Norcold), and Isotherm. They come in different sizes, from 1.8 cu.ft like Landyacht has, to 7 cu.ft. People with truck campers love those small boxes. Engel is better known for their top-loading portable models, but they make upright built-in models as well, with their own brand compressor.

landyacht318 - 12-29-2012 at 12:51 AM

I think the insulation I added to my VF was isocyanurate not styrofoam. Whatever it is, It was 15$ for a 4'x8'x3/4" sheet at Home Depot. I was not aware of the Glacier bay insulation, but a sheet of that appears to be ridiculously priced but is the type of overkill I usually research and then place in the ideal but unrealistic column.

Most of these 1.8 cubic foot Danfoss powered fridges seem to use the same plastic molds as they all look the same, especially the interiors of the doors. I am not sure they all use the same type/thickness of insulation. Mine was about 1.25 inches all around from the factory and I basically doubled that, not including the 3/4 and 1/2" plywood that surrounds the extra insulation. To the exterior of that plywood I added some roofing flashing with the reflective face, and the nearest exterior wall of the van body also is insulated in the area of the fridge. So sunny side/shady side really makes no difference to the performance.

I have seen pics of a 2.2 cubic foot Tundra, and that used a 92mm fan in the 40 CFM range and covering only a portion of the condenser. It also appeared to just have crimped refrigerant lines instead of a valve with a cap for refilling like my VF.

The NovaKool ( Canadian assembled)fridges appear to use passive condensers, which are larger, and have no fan but are Danfoss powered.

Isotherm seems to have attached a couple hundred dollars in price without much difference in construction, except for the ASU models which have an additional cold plate which gets frozen by ramped up compressor speeds whenever battery charging voltages are sensed.

TruckFridge is the least expensive (Chinese assembled) of the front loading Danfoss powered Fridges and marketed toward the 18 wheeler types.

The Vitrifrigo impressed me with the larger 120 MM, 71 CFM fan and the condenser which seems sized to accept these and is attached to it with Stainless Steel screws. The 92 mm fans on the other fridges apparently use Zip ties to hold the fan to the condenser and cover a smaller portion of it. The 71 CFM fan was pretty loud though. I replaced it with a 54 CFM fan that has a higher static pressure rating, for much less noise and current consumed. When I Switched fans, I also made a cooling unit tunnel to funnel the air and protect the coolant lines from installation removal stresses, but noted that performance increased even with a fan rated at lower CFM's by timing duty cycles and taking interior and ambient temperatures before and after.

I do have enough room to make a 3/4 inch thick insulated removable door cap which would seal tightly around the door for overnight or in between meals/ beer swilling bouts, but again, overkill. Especially If I do not have WiFi, as my laptop is by far the biggest consumer of battery power.

I am guilty of contributing to thread drift. To the OP, a MSW inverter hooked to you battery, powering a blender is no biggie. If you are worried about the battery, just run the engine when mixing beverages so as not to deplete the battery.

To anyone else interested in vehicular Solar and compressor refrigeration, I've got it down to science. Ask away. My limiting factors with my ride when camping are food and water, not ice or battery power, though running out of the green bottles of propane for cooking have inconvenienced me in the past.

But I do kind of miss the simple tent camping and cooking over a fire aspects of it all. Taking it all with me, kind of feels like there is more to have taken away from me if something goes wrong.

Hook - 12-29-2012 at 06:27 AM

The OP was long ago satisfied with the simple info he requested. I think we're OK here.

I dont miss simple tent camping; not being on the road for 10 weeks or so. :biggrin:

There is one loss of cooling that I have always noticed with upright/front loaders. When you open the door, the movement of the door seems to draw a significant amount of chilled air out of the interior. Then closing it forces a chunk of ambient air back in. I wonder if hanging some of those clear plastic strips like restaurants use across the entrance to walk-in fridges would be practical?

Maybe it's not a significant amount, really, but I certainly feel the cool air out there. I guess a really sensitive digital temp gauge could tell if it was a significant amount.

On my Norcold, why does the sound of it running seem to change from cycle to cycle? Should I open it up and investigate how the compressor is mounted? Is it possible that it is coming loose from it's mount? Would rubber washers at the mounting screws help at all?

willardguy - 12-29-2012 at 10:53 AM

I have been thinking about adding walk-in cooler curtains to my sunfrost for some time,it certainly couldnt hurt. im convinced the key to this refrigeration debate is the integrity of the box insulation and the door gasket, along with simply not opening the darn thing. our refrigeration holds probably 90% beer/10% food and ive always thought the trick would be to have a dispenser build in (like a coke machine) so you weren't constantly opening and closing the door, I could never figure out how to do it in a chest freezer conversion with the evaporator coils in the way.
anyway back to the portables if you ever spot one of the coleman sterling free piston units at a segundo or yard sale, buy it. these were sold by coleman till 07 and could be had for as little as 200 bucks when coleman was discontinuing them. sailors love em, you can still buy em from twinbird for $$$$$

ncampion - 12-29-2012 at 11:52 AM

Although I too hate the thought of all that "cold air" rushing out of my fridg/freezer every time I open the door, if you look at the physics, it really is not too big a deal. At STP (stand temperature and pressure) air weighs 0.0807 lbs. per Cu. Ft. So if your little 2 cu. ft. refer spills out it's entire contents of air, it only represents 0.16 pounds of air. That assumes that there is nothing in the refer and everything is air. In reality I'm sure at least half of the volume is taken up by food etc, so only about 0.08 lbs or 1.28 oz. of cold air is lost. It will take very few BTU's to recover that amount of heat.

willardguy - 12-29-2012 at 12:10 PM

good point, assuming you're not in and out every 15 minutes grabbing another can of beer! :bounce:

landyacht318 - 12-29-2012 at 12:56 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Hook

On my Norcold, why does the sound of it running seem to change from cycle to cycle? Should I open it up and investigate how the compressor is mounted? Is it possible that it is coming loose from it's mount? Would rubber washers at the mounting screws help at all?

This drove me absolutely nuts with my Norcold.

While the vibrations of the compressor itself could cause some things on the adjoining cabinet to vibrate and cause different noises, I found that for no particular reason that the compressor itself would develop weird harmonics and the noise would be different from cycle to cycle.

I Did remove the compressor/ condenser assembly from the fridge box, and suspend it with thick silicone rubber washers, and this was one of the most effective methods of vibration suppression I employed, but its effectiveness seemed to dissipate with time. The silicone rubber feet seemed to just then add to the harmonics instead of dampen them after a time.

I used to get so peeed off at the noisy Norcold I would punch the fridge door, and this would then knock off the weird harmonics and change the noise. Sometimes it would return during that cycle, and other times not. The amount and weight of the items placed within would affect the harmonics. Usually heavier was better.

When it failed, going back to a cooler and block ice truly sucked, and I took some time researching new fridges before purchase, but when I first fired up the Vitrifrigo, I had to put my hand on the compressor itself to see whether it was running. I wasn't happy spending another 600$ on a new fridge, but the much lessened noise and vibration was worth it. Ultimately, I have found the Danfoss powered Vitrifrigo to be slightly more efficient, and the Norcold too had extra insulation added, as well as a small fan to force air over the passive condenser for increased efficiency, and the same interior fan.

You can go nuts trying to lessen the noise of the Sawafuji powered Norcold. A layer or 2 of damplifier pro or similar self adhesive noise supressor in the cabinet in the area of the compressor is about all you can do with a larger fridge. I had mine floating on foam. The shelf it was resting on was padded and resting on rubber cleats with layers of different thickness and hardness of material. The vertical flanges were also padded and isolated from the cabinet itself. I was able to grab the fridge and it would be able to move 3/8 inch in any direction within the cabinet, and still the noise and vibrations, if on the edge of sleep, would knock me out of that delicate threshold, and continuous white noise sources like fans were required for a good night's sleep in a quiet environment.

When I first installed the New Norcold in the cabinet I specially built to house it, I employed no vibration suppression. It was resting on plywood and the flanges were screwed tight into wooden cleats. I could tell from 15 feet away from the Van whether the compressor was running or not, and touching the van body confirmed it. Laying on a 5 inch thick foam mattress, I could still feel the vibrations, even after I had the dang thing mounted in a foam cushion in the cabinet.

I have little doubt that the vibrations and my attempts to reduce them stressed the hollow refrigerant tubing and contributed to the slow loss of refrigerant which caused the fridge to fail. But basically after 5 years of near continuous operation, various forums said congratulations, time for a new fridge, and I bit the bullett.

bajamedic - 12-29-2012 at 01:11 PM

This is a portable solar system that I used in the communications portion of my job (yes, I did work in my past life). The basic system comes as a 60 watt, but is eaisly expanded to 120 watts, all in a neat little case. It is a little spendy, but you get what you pay for. JH

http://www.danelec.com/pdfs/MKT%20118%202010%20Transportable...

Alm - 12-29-2012 at 04:46 PM

Yes, Novakool have passive condensers spanning the width of the back. I don't think this in itself is a bad thing. In a van it's more difficult to arrange a proper ventilation without fan, but in a trailer passive condenser will do. Most heat is generated by compressor, not condenser. Novakool has (optional?) fan for compressor cooling, and it's attached with screws few inches from the compressor, no zip-ties. Some people added condenser fan to Dometic - which already has a fan, but as Landyacht noted, it's mostly for compressor cooling.

Isotherm is priced higher, though not much higher. Their "Cruise" line comes in different versions - with or without freezer tray, regular box or stainless, with ASU or without. 1.7 or 2.3 cu.ft box, regular, no ASU unit, Isotherm costs about $100 more than Novakool or Dometic (aka Coolmatic), and sometimes cost is the same. Westmarine carries Isotherm and Dometic. Larger 5+ cu.ft boxes are designed differently in every brand - compressor can be at the bottom or at the top, and when it's at the top, the compressor/condenser bundle can take a corner or the entire width of the back.

PS:
With upright Vs top-loader - the physics says that top-loader should be more economic because the cold air is heavier so it doesn't "spill" when you open the top lid. In practice this seems to work for large boxes only - like 5 cf and larger, and when the temperature difference is substantial - like a standalone top-loader freezer. Small 2 cf top-loader, given the same insulation, won't be much different from front-loader if you open it often. Portable top-loaders are not in the same league here, - they have less insulation and airflow around compressor/condenser bundle is not optimized.

[Edited on 12-30-2012 by Alm]

willardguy - 12-29-2012 at 06:33 PM

also, haven't got any feedback on the sterling free piston engine portable units. they are amazing!