BajaNomad

Info on school safety for LBGT students in Baja

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Iflyfish - 1-27-2013 at 11:21 AM

This great organization is doing some wonderful charitable work in Mexico as well as in the UsofA and Canada.
http://www.impcourt.org/icis/info/Documents/ICC_Trifold_Fina...

This group offers a safe place for LGBT (lesbian, gay, bisexual, and transsexual) students in schools across the United States and Canada supporting safe schools.
http://www.theswcsun.com/gay-straight-alliance-works-to-crea...

I have a friend who has asked me to inquire of my fellow Nomads if anyone knows of any GSA groups in Tijuana or in the rest of Mexico?

If you have any information on this please U2U me.

Thanks,

Iflyfishconmilgbtamigos

DENNIS - 1-27-2013 at 11:28 AM

There's a bar downtown Ensenada on Sin Street where all the men dress and act like women. Lemme know if you would like their address. I don't have it or I'd include it here.

Ateo - 1-27-2013 at 11:35 AM

Always the class act Dennis.

Iflyfish - 1-27-2013 at 11:37 AM

I am not interested in the bar but if there are any GSA clubs or groups in Tijuana schools. LGBT kids are often bullied in schools and they have an incredibly high suicide rate due to social stigma. As a Social Worker in Public Schools I saw this problem on a regular basis.

The Gay-Straight-Alliance clubs/groups in school contribute to School Safety as they provide safe places for students to be and for other students to get to know others who are different from them. There are chapters now across the USofA and Canada. I don't know if they yet exist in Mexico. The Imperial Court System in the USofA, Canada and Mexico provide support to groups in this community and so I included information about their charitable mission.

Does anyone know if there are GSA clubs in schools in Baja? Since there is an Imperial Court in Tijuana I thought there might be these clubs for students. I would appreciate any information. You can u2u me here with information. Thanks.

Iflyfish

EnsenadaDr - 1-27-2013 at 12:04 PM

You know what, I have to be very honest with you. I personally believe that LBGT's are accepted more in Mexico than in the US. I remember when I started medical school, there was a gay student a year ahead of me. He was a very nice guy, and I was shocked that people accepted him so readily in Mexico, where the stereotypical bias was "homophobic" and "macho".

I also remember doing my social service in Ensenada, and went into the local internet cafe. There was a guy who helped me in there that was very nice, and I got to know him well over the course of a few months. He posts on Facebook, and I believe does some cross-dressing as well (he refers to putting on his other gender clothing at times.) Other students down here seem to just accept it as far as I can see. Seems both of these students had an extended group of friends and were readily accepted by their peers.

[Edited on 1-27-2013 by EnsenadaDr]

DENNIS - 1-27-2013 at 12:21 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Ateo
Always the class act Dennis.


Was I being un-PC? That's too bad. Some things just don't fit into my time worn visions of Baja.
That may seem critical to you, but I choose to nurture a memory of a frontier carved out by manly, and womanly pioneers through their endeavors, and that's the way I plan to keep my recollections. I won't allow some changes in this world to interfere with that.

Did you ever travel the Old Road, all dirt and rock, from border to Cape? I did, and believe me, there were no gay bars on the way. That was a Baja that I was into and I prefer to maintain my memories. That's about all I have left.

So....I'm going to be a bit un-PC........right or wrong. It helps keep me young.

EnsenadaDr - 1-27-2013 at 12:25 PM

Dennis, you have to admit that there is a very famous bisexual bartender in the area...and your community embraces him wholeheartly...I have never ever seen you be rude to this person, so don't come across as unaccepting...you even defended this person against a very negative posting in Punta Banda.

DENNIS - 1-27-2013 at 12:33 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by EnsenadaDr
Dennis, you have to admit that there is a very famous bisexual bartender in the area...and your community embraces him wholeheartly...I have never ever seen you be rude to this person, so don't come across as unaccepting...you even defended this person against a very negative posting in Punta Banda.


I'm anything but unaccepting. I just choose to keep my memory banks in certain areas refined and confined to a past that I know personally.
I come from a time when it would be unthinkable to walk into a Hells Angels bar and ask which tables were reserved for gay members.

Don't mess with history. It's inviolable.

tripledigitken - 1-27-2013 at 12:41 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by DENNIS
....I come from a time when it would be unthinkable to walk into a Hells Angels bar and ask which tables were reserved for gay members....


Were there any in Newport Beach, Fontana maybe, but Newport?


:D

DENNIS - 1-27-2013 at 12:53 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by tripledigitken
Quote:
Originally posted by DENNIS
....I come from a time when it would be unthinkable to walk into a Hells Angels bar and ask which tables were reserved for gay members....


Were there any in Newport Beach, Fontana maybe, but Newport?


:D



Are you kidding? The establishment sponsered police department wouldn't even let Mexicans come to town unless they had a leaf-blowers strapped to their backs. :lol:

tripledigitken - 1-27-2013 at 12:55 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by DENNIS
Quote:
Originally posted by tripledigitken
Quote:
Originally posted by DENNIS
....I come from a time when it would be unthinkable to walk into a Hells Angels bar and ask which tables were reserved for gay members....


Were there any in Newport Beach, Fontana maybe, but Newport?


:D



Are you kidding? The establishment sponsered police department wouldn't even let Mexicans come to town unless they had a leaf-blowers strapped to their backs. :lol:



Yup, that's what I remember from the mid 60's. Had to go to Santa Ana for decent mexican food.

DENNIS - 1-27-2013 at 01:05 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by tripledigitken

Yup, that's what I remember from the mid 60's. Had to go to Santa Ana for decent mexican food.


There were a few places for Mexican Food in Costa Mesa, but, not that we were snobbish, we had to have our shot records reviewed before we'd go up there.


Now....I'm just kidding, for those of you who are wondering. :saint:

EnsenadaDr - 1-27-2013 at 01:22 PM

Dennis, you mean you didn't see Brokeback Mountain? The times are a changin'!!!

mtgoat666 - 1-27-2013 at 01:31 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by DENNIS
Quote:
Originally posted by Ateo
Always the class act Dennis.


Was I being un-PC? That's too bad. Some things just don't fit into my time worn visions of Baja.
That may seem critical to you, but I choose to nurture a memory of a frontier carved out by manly, and womanly pioneers through their endeavors, and that's the way I plan to keep my recollections. I won't allow some changes in this world to interfere with that.

Did you ever travel the Old Road, all dirt and rock, from border to Cape? I did, and believe me, there were no gay bars on the way. That was a Baja that I was into and I prefer to maintain my memories. That's about all I have left.

So....I'm going to be a bit un-PC........right or wrong. It helps keep me young.


Probably same proportion of gays in population then as now. Sounds like "all you got left" is your prejudice, glad that is what keeps you young (WTF?).


[Edited on 1-27-2013 by mtgoat666]

DENNIS - 1-27-2013 at 01:44 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by EnsenadaDr
Dennis, you mean you didn't see Brokeback Mountain? The times are a changin'!!!


Actually, I didn't....for no particular reason.
Had it been a fantasy about Roy Rogers and Hopalong Cassidy, I would have had a definite reason.

DENNIS - 1-27-2013 at 01:49 PM

Quote:
Probably same proportion of gays in population then as now.



Keep up with the story line, numbnuts. Baja in the 50's and 60's.........there was very little population. Only the wild, wild west.
Baja was a rite of passage.......not a gay pride parade ground.

gatoramey - 1-27-2013 at 02:29 PM

Dennis
Sounds like your getting your health back. It also sounds like your as happy as a queer in a dick tree. March 15th I'll fly by your house.

DENNIS - 1-27-2013 at 02:31 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by gatoramey
Dennis
Sounds like your getting your health back. It also sounds like your as happy as a queer in a dick tree. March 15th I'll fly by your house.



Ohhhh lordy.....


OK Ramey. I'll be looking for you.

Your treading on sacred land here!

Howard - 1-27-2013 at 02:33 PM

To each there own, live and let live and who am I to say how you should think but damn, it leave Roy Rogers and Hopalong Cassidy out of this!

DENNIS - 1-27-2013 at 02:50 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Howard
To each there own, live and let live and who am I to say how you should think but damn, it leave Roy Rogers and Hopalong Cassidy out of this!


Sorry. I'll burn incense at their shrine in repentance.

Ateo - 1-27-2013 at 02:54 PM

Dennis,
I don't see it as a not being PC issue. LGBT's are human beings. They are sons and daughters of friends and family. They are worthy of basic human respect. Making jokes about them ain't cool in my book. I'm guilty of doing this in my youth -- so I'm no angel. Zeus knows how much crap they have to put up with from society already.

But hey Dennis, we can disagree. No punches pulled. =)

And now back to the topic in this thread............anyone have any ideas for Iflyfish?

J.P. - 1-27-2013 at 03:16 PM

I belive the Mexican Society by and large are a Tolerant People.
Most outsiders mistake that Tolerance for Acceptance. Given the Dominate Religous belief I dont think they can or will accept that Lifestyle.

Baja Bucko - 1-27-2013 at 04:10 PM

You might want to contact the Trevor Project for access to info-maybe bilingual info .....

DENNIS - 1-27-2013 at 04:20 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Baja Bucko
You might want to contact the Trevor Project for access to info-maybe bilingual info .....


http://www.thetrevorproject.org/

Iflyfish - 1-28-2013 at 09:43 AM

Thank you very much for the link! It got me into the arena I needed to find. I found an international organization out of Lima Peru that has a presence in Mexico for parents of LGBT children. http://www.familiasporladiversidad.org/convencion/

This is much like PFLAG in the USofA. http://community.pflag.org/Page.aspx?pid=194&srcid=-2

I found the same sort of heart wrenching stories at http://www.thetrevorproject.org
that I have heard for decades in my Private Practice of Clinical Social Work and in the schools I consulted with for over 25 years.

I believe that times indeed are changing and there are more resources available now that we have the internet and more time on task in dealing with this issue. However there are still untold numbers of children suffering in silence and die from suicide in Mexico as well as in the USofA.

I also believe that there are cultural and subcultural differences depending upon where one is in the US or Mexico for that matter.

I again want to thank my nomad amigos for your thoughtful response and the link you have provided.

For those who do not know you can translate Webpages automatically by cutting and pasting. Cut the http........ of the site you are looking at and Paste it into the dialogue box in Google Translate, an invaluable tool when doing translation or searching the web for information not in your native language.

I will get this information to my friend, it looks like there are no GSA's in the schools of Mexico at this time.

Iflyfish

shari - 1-28-2013 at 11:47 AM

Ensenada Dr. touched on an interesting phenomenon here in baja...for such a macho culture, it really is extra tolerant of individuals who are "different". With such large families, it is common to have a gay child or handicapped in some way. Here the culture completely accepts these differences and embraces them.

In rural areas anyway, handicapped children go to public schools and kids learn to accept and help the disadvantaged. We have many gay people in our village and they are not ostracized or bullied or really even noticed..it's just not a big deal...which is why there may not be these programs Rick is looking for here....they arent needed. That being said, I have never seen any of the gay folks outwardly expressing their sexuality by kissing or holding hands etc. They keep their affections private and go about their day like heterosexuals....I was going to say like normal people...hahaha! They ARE just normal people here....I was pretty surprised about this and have come to appreciate it.

There is a little girls who is severely handicapped and she is in the regular school here and her classmates help wheel her around and in the school plays, she is always included and plays her part...once they performed as a mariachi band and a violin was propped in her lap! so cool.

Bajaboy - 1-28-2013 at 12:44 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by shari
Ensenada Dr. touched on an interesting phenomenon here in baja...for such a macho culture, it really is extra tolerant of individuals who are "different". With such large families, it is common to have a gay child or handicapped in some way. Here the culture completely accepts these differences and embraces them.

In rural areas anyway, handicapped children go to public schools and kids learn to accept and help the disadvantaged. We have many gay people in our village and they are not ostracized or bullied or really even noticed..it's just not a big deal...which is why there may not be these programs Rick is looking for here....they arent needed. That being said, I have never seen any of the gay folks outwardly expressing their sexuality by kissing or holding hands etc. They keep their affections private and go about their day like heterosexuals....I was going to say like normal people...hahaha! They ARE just normal people here....I was pretty surprised about this and have come to appreciate it.

There is a little girls who is severely handicapped and she is in the regular school here and her classmates help wheel her around and in the school plays, she is always included and plays her part...once they performed as a mariachi band and a violin was propped in her lap! so cool.


If homosexuals must keep their affections private, I would not consider them to be treated as normal.

Iflyfish - 1-28-2013 at 01:14 PM

I started this thread as a favor to a friend wanting to help Gay-Straight-Alliances in the USofA, Canada and Mexico if they existed in Mexico.

For me this has been an informative and fascinating exploration. Mexico has some very deep and long history with LGBT people and as Ensenada Dr and Shari have noted there seems to be a tolerance of these differences here in Mexico that is different than in the USofA and Canada.

There are still many young people who are struggling with their sexual identity who are exposed to abuse here in Mexico, I have read their heartbreaking letters, and their stories are very familiar to me.

I have learned that there are indeed groups in Mexico that exist to support Parents of LBGT children and there are internet sites offering support to Depressed and Suicidal LBGT Teens. This is all good news.

Mexico has already passed laws acknowledging Gay marriage and adoption
http://articles.latimes.com/2010/aug/18/world/la-fg-mexico-g...

So the civil rights of LBGT people are the law of the land.

Then there is the very interesting city of Juchitán de Zaragoza in the State of Oaxaca, it is the city of the Muxes. I would encourage you to watch this short documentary filmed in this enchanting city where the Muxes are honored as an integral part of the culture.

"According to myth, God entrusted San Vicente with a difficult task. On his back he carried a sack full of Muxes, and had to leave one in every town of the Zapotec kingdom.?

But when the Saint reached Juchitan he tripped, and all the Muxes he carried in his sack fell out. Since then, this town in the South-East of Mexico has experienced an unexpected - not only for Mexico but for the entire world -? sexual liberation. Homosexual men who wish to dress as women freely do so, and live a more or less similar life as their heterosexual fellow citizens. Not only do the Muxes not hide their difference on the streets of Juchitan, they actually project it in every way. Their fellow citizens simply go on their way, not impressed, provoked or angered by the sight of a man in women's clothes, hairdos and make-up. The Muxes claim they belong to the community of the "intrepid", of "those who do not fear death", and celebrate their desire and joy to be women every year in a festivity attended by the whole community.

In Juchitan, the dream of tolerance and the acceptance of difference has been a reality for years. Without announcements and declarations, without social movements having to fight long and bloody social and political struggles, without conflict and quarrel...

A documentary on the joy of life and love which prevailed effortlessly because San Vicente tripped...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bz-NL1HcGaA

Iflyfishinaweofthemanymexicos

Pescador - 1-28-2013 at 02:10 PM

The LGBT movement in the United States became one of bullying and power grabs under the guise of Political Correctness. Because Mexican culture does not go out of it's way to find victims and because the victims don't seem to have the same platform for complaints as they do in the more liberal quarters of the United States, there seems to be less of a problem with LGBT students wanting to protest, demonstrate, and raise a fuss under the guise of having experienced discrimination.

Bajaboys comments about keeping their affections private is a pretty common part of the culture in the same way. You will occasionaly see a young couple showing affection, but that is also frowned upon by the older community in the same way.

If a family member is LGBT disposed, the ususal comment is something along the lines of a generic description of that person seems to prefer people of the same sex. And at some level the term queer or joto / jota is used in a generic term of wordplay, but in my experience I have never seen the students using it is a disparaging manner as a discriminitory putdown.

Now there is something you may want to look into and research. Why in the US with all the bullying that they employ to get supposedly equal treatment in terms of Same Sex Marriage and social acceptance, and all the protesting, lobbying, general disturbance, and all the other methods of fomenting change, do the words like "faggot", "queer", 'homo", etc., etc., have such a negative and hateful connotation? In Mexico, on the other hand, we see a much more balanced and accepting expression of alternative lifestyles and choices.

Iflyfish - 1-28-2013 at 02:11 PM

Dennis: You got me to thinking.....there must have been LBGT people in the history of Mexico and Baja.

I hate to disillusion you, given your delicate condition and all, but your fantasy of Mexican History seems to be a bit, dare I say weak or limp wristed. Seems homosexuality was alive and well in MezoAmerica, in fact the Aztecs even had a god for it named Xochipili

Now don't you go arguing with me Dennis or I'll bring in the Lone Ranger and Tonto into this and believe me it won't be as pretty as Brokeback Mountain...if you get my drift. We all know about Bruce and Wayne. So, hang onto your bar-stool and get a peek at this.

http://www.conservapedia.com/History_of_homosexuality

Below find quotes from this History.

Homosexuality among the America Indians
Pre-Columbian Americas: In North America, the Spanish and French explorers and missionaries who visited the New World quickly became aware of widespread Indian transvestism (men dressing as women) and homosexuality. Writing in 1776, Father Charlevoix, a Jesuit priest, found the Iroquois to have “an excess of effeminacy and lewdness. There are men unashamed to wear women’s clothing and to practice all the occupations of women, from which follows corruption that I cannot express. They pretend that its usage comes from their religion. These effeminates never marry and abandon themselves to the most infamous passions.”
Greenberg reports that there was widespread male homosexuality among the Mayans in Central America: “A strong homosexual component pervades close friendships of young married Mayan men as well as bachelors in southern Mexico and among Guatemalan Indians.”
Among the Aztecs, “Sodomy was virtually universal, involving even children as young as six. Cortez also found sodomy to be widespread among the Aztecs, and admonished them to give it up – along with human sacrifice and cannibalism. One of the Aztec gods, Xochipili, was the patron of male homosexuality and male prostitution.”[51]

We don't have documentation of LBGT behavior in Baja history, save for the occasional marooned Gay sailor on islands off the Baja, but we know that these differences have existed in all cultures throughout history.


Iflyfishbutnotwithxochipilicwhofranklyscaresme

Iflyfish - 1-28-2013 at 02:30 PM

Pescador!

"The LGBT movement in the United States became one of bullying and power grabs under the guise of Political Correctness."

That's like saying the Black Civil Rights movement in the United States became one of bullying and power grabs under the guise of Political Correctness.

Or saying that the movement toward an American Revolution became one of bullying and power grabs under the guise of "no taxes with out representation".

You got the cart in front of the burro amigo.

Iflyfishwithmyjawdropped

Skipjack Joe - 1-28-2013 at 05:09 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by shari

We have many gay people in our village and ...



Oh really? Who are they? I promise not to tell anyone.

Bajaboy - 1-28-2013 at 08:29 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Pescador.

Bajaboys comments about keeping their affections private is a pretty common part of the culture in the same way. You will occasionaly see a young couple showing affection, but that is also frowned upon by the older community in the same way.

\


Have you been to a dance lately? Plenty of visible affection and most seem to be enjoying it
:lol:

Ateo - 1-28-2013 at 08:37 PM

Iflyfish: Great work with this thread. I thank you.

Bajafun777 - 1-28-2013 at 10:03 PM

Like the song goes,"Different Strokes For Different Folks!!" Have no thoughts one way or the other on this lifestyle as I have worked with these folks, been in sports with the different lifestyle folks in high school and college, and have associated with them at bars, social functions, etc. but again have no interest in their lifestyle for me or mine.

"Live and Let Live," however with that said I not going to be encouraging others to take up this form of lifestyle nor do I want to be in area of their total on play. I also believe nobody has the right to cause harm to anyone being different or hating them for being different. Just rolling along enjoying life and enjoying listening and watching others in their quests for adventures of life. LOL Take Care & Travel Safe " No Hurry, No Worry, Just FUN" bajafun777

EnsenadaDr - 1-28-2013 at 11:13 PM

Bullying also doesn't only happen with gays. It can happen in higher society mexican schools as well. My daughter was in a very highly rated private school in Mexico, and asked to change to another school. There was one girl who was always bullying the other girls and she was tired of her. She is much happier in the new school she is at. I think parents have an obligation to listen to their kids, and if they are not happy, make the changes necessary to stay away from competitive, keep up with the Smiths mentality (in this case, it was keep up with the Garcias), I think in the less affluent areas of Mexico kids are more tolerant, but kids raised in households with more income learn the practices of their parents, more money means a better person, NOT!!

Iflyfish - 1-29-2013 at 03:36 PM

Most Gays and Lesbians do not "choose that lifestyle" they are born that way. No one wakes up one morning and says "Great, I get to be LBGT and have the crap kicked out of me!" Not only do these folks go through an internal battle, no one wants to be different, but then have to deal with the attitudes of others. Many are rejected by their parents who don't understand the biology behind these differences.

Few of us know of the agony that LBGT go through in their development because the concept of being attracted to the same sex is just not in our frame of reference and most of us are not LBGT. I had a hard time getting my head around that till I worked in a Medical School and learned about the wide variety of anatomical/physiology=ical/hormonal variations that occur in the human body.

We are not all the same. We are conceived female and our tissues migrate and when we have a Y chromosome then it gets exposed to Androgen and the tissues morph into male organs. This is not always the case i.e. the hermaphrodite, who has BOTH sets of organs in various configurations. Same with hormones, men AND women have Testosterone and Estrogen, it is the balance of these that create the secondary sexual characteristics. As males age their testosterone decreases in relation to their estrogen, muscle mass decreases, sex drive decreases, breasts develop more etc. in direct response to a decrease in that hormone.

All of this is beyond CHOICE.

Male and Female brains are different and there are Males walking around with more Female like brains and Females with more Male like brains.

This is important information for young people struggling with this issue as it is for Parents of these children. Parents are often confused, did I do something wrong etc. The more the general public understands these issues the easier it is for the people directly involved. Half the problem is how Society deals with these differences, that second half we can directly address with information and at least acceptance of differences if not the embrace of them.

Thanks for the thoughtful posts on this thread. I got some very useful information for my friend who is trying to help LBGT youth, an effort I applaud.

Iflyfishconmiheteroehomoamigosonnomads

Iflyfish - 1-29-2013 at 03:45 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by EnsenadaDr
Bullying also doesn't only happen with gays. It can happen in higher society mexican schools as well. My daughter was in a very highly rated private school in Mexico, and asked to change to another school. There was one girl who was always bullying the other girls and she was tired of her. She is much happier in the new school she is at. I think parents have an obligation to listen to their kids, and if they are not happy, make the changes necessary to stay away from competitive, keep up with the Smiths mentality (in this case, it was keep up with the Garcias), I think in the less affluent areas of Mexico kids are more tolerant, but kids raised in households with more income learn the practices of their parents, more money means a better person, NOT!!


Very interesting observation and so true. It is not only GLBT kids that get bullied. Bullies have low self esteem and need to feel strong and better about themselves by dominating others. It is very damaging for children to be exposed to that as it engenders feelings of powerlessness and helplessness that can become a part of the self identity.

Parents/teachers have to train their children to embrace diversity and to recognize that the Bully is the one with the problem.

Congratulations for listening to your daughter and taking action. So many kids get told to just toughen up and take on the bully physically and not all children feel up to that task hence can feel even more inadequate because now they have displeased dad/mom.

Bullying of GLBT children is a safety issue not only for the abused but for the abuser too. Confronting bullies by adults allows the opportunity to learn empathy and compassion and these are important lessons indeed. If bullies are allowed to get away with their aggression that too can become embedded in their character and their spouse and children can become the targets of their anger and lack of social skills
.
Thanks for your helpful posts on this thread.

Iflyfish

Baja Bucko - 1-29-2013 at 03:48 PM

Well said, Iflyfish, well said.

Nomads-----Please walk in a parent's or child's shoes before making jokes about this stuff.

Iflyfish - 1-29-2013 at 04:11 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Baja Bucko
Well said, Iflyfish, well said.

Nomads-----Please walk in a parent's or child's shoes before making jokes about this stuff.


Thanks Baja Bucko

I think it's very hard for us straights to get our heads around someone so different unless I have struggled with this issue. I'm heterosexual like most other men, how can I get my head around that another man could be attracted to men when the attraction toward women is a powerful as it is? As a heterosexual man when I first found out there were Gay men I was freaked out, felt disgusted, creepy. They were a threat to my own identity as I had to sort out the world of dating, friendships with women etc. Not an easy task in itself as the flat spot on my forehead can well testify to. Trying to get my head around such a different orientation while I was trying to sort out my own was just too much. Having someone different to look down on had it's appeal. It wasn't till I was older in my life and really got to know LGBT people that I got to appreciate their bravery in dealing with such a fundamental issue that I did not have to deal with.

I felt the same way about racial minorities and their fight for acknowledgement and social/legal equality that I do about the LBGT fight for equal rights. I am glad that "the times they are changing" in regard to this last major Civil Rights issue of our time. My hope is that there can be less pain for these folks. We need all the diversity that we can get.

Iflyfish

Iflyfish - 1-29-2013 at 04:15 PM

Ya know, I started this thread for a non Nomad friend, to help them learn if there were GSAs in Mexico and it has morphed into a discussion that has helped at least one person who has contacted me via U2U and maybe many others.

Now again I am grateful to Nomads who again have come through for another Nomad. Saludos Amigos!

Iflyfishconminomadamigos

Bajaboy - 1-29-2013 at 09:26 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Iflyfish
Quote:
Originally posted by Baja Bucko
Well said, Iflyfish, well said.

Nomads-----Please walk in a parent's or child's shoes before making jokes about this stuff.


Thanks Baja Bucko

I think it's very hard for us straights to get our heads around someone so different unless I have struggled with this issue. I'm heterosexual like most other men, how can I get my head around that another man could be attracted to men when the attraction toward women is a powerful as it is? As a heterosexual man when I first found out there were Gay men I was freaked out, felt disgusted, creepy. They were a threat to my own identity as I had to sort out the world of dating, friendships with women etc. Not an easy task in itself as the flat spot on my forehead can well testify to. Trying to get my head around such a different orientation while I was trying to sort out my own was just too much. Having someone different to look down on had it's appeal. It wasn't till I was older in my life and really got to know LGBT people that I got to appreciate their bravery in dealing with such a fundamental issue that I did not have to deal with.

I felt the same way about racial minorities and their fight for acknowledgement and social/legal equality that I do about the LBGT fight for equal rights. I am glad that "the times they are changing" in regard to this last major Civil Rights issue of our time. My hope is that there can be less pain for these folks. We need all the diversity that we can get.

Iflyfish


I don't know...might be generational as well. I've had plenty of gay male and female friends. When we met Rick, I never thought to ask you about your sexuality...why should it matter to me....I never felt an attraction...nothing personal and our friendship has emerged since. I see it this way...some people are attracted to large people...some to dark...some to small and some to the same sex...what does it matter what or who you are attracted to?

I'm comfortable in the shoes I wear...I suppose that might be the bottom line.

Iflyfish - 1-29-2013 at 09:58 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Bajaboy
Quote:
Originally posted by Iflyfish
Quote:
Originally posted by Baja Bucko
Well said, Iflyfish, well said.

Nomads-----Please walk in a parent's or child's shoes before making jokes about this stuff.


Thanks Baja Bucko

I think it's very hard for us straights to get our heads around someone so different unless I have struggled with this issue. I'm heterosexual like most other men, how can I get my head around that another man could be attracted to men when the attraction toward women is a powerful as it is? As a heterosexual man when I first found out there were Gay men I was freaked out, felt disgusted, creepy. They were a threat to my own identity as I had to sort out the world of dating, friendships with women etc. Not an easy task in itself as the flat spot on my forehead can well testify to. Trying to get my head around such a different orientation while I was trying to sort out my own was just too much. Having someone different to look down on had it's appeal. It wasn't till I was older in my life and really got to know LGBT people that I got to appreciate their bravery in dealing with such a fundamental issue that I did not have to deal with.

I felt the same way about racial minorities and their fight for acknowledgement and social/legal equality that I do about the LBGT fight for equal rights. I am glad that "the times they are changing" in regard to this last major Civil Rights issue of our time. My hope is that there can be less pain for these folks. We need all the diversity that we can get.

Iflyfish


I don't know...might be generational as well. I've had plenty of gay male and female friends. When we met Rick, I never thought to ask you about your sexuality...why should it matter to me....I never felt an attraction...nothing personal and our friendship has emerged since. I see it this way...some people are attracted to large people...some to dark...some to small and some to the same sex...what does it matter what or who you are attracted to?

I'm comfortable in the shoes I wear...I suppose that might be the bottom line.


"When we met Rick, I never thought to ask you about your sexuality...why should it matter to me....I never felt an attraction...nothing personal"

No apology needed, actually your mother is pretty cute, more than you, hey, but that's just me, I was born a raging heterosexual, can't help it just born that way. It's limiting I realize, but there you have it. ...but that having been said, I like what you have to say. What is the difference to me how people choose to use their sexual organs? By they way I appreciate your reference to large people, we are after all often disregarded in the equation.

I do hope it's a generational thing, we will all be better off if it is. Demographics win out in the end and for that I am grateful.

Iflyfishconmiasuncionbuddies

Adds a different dimension ............

MrBillM - 1-30-2013 at 10:16 AM

To "Exploring Back-Roads in Baja".

Terry28 - 1-30-2013 at 10:33 AM

I knew if we waited long enough Mr. Bile would raise his homophobic head.

durrelllrobert - 1-30-2013 at 12:05 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Iflyfish
This great organization is doing some wonderful charitable work in Mexico as well as in the UsofA and Canada.
http://www.impcourt.org/icis/info/Documents/ICC_Trifold_Fina...

This group offers a safe place for LGBT (lesbian, gay, bisexual, and transsexual) students in schools across the United States and Canada supporting safe schools.
http://www.theswcsun.com/gay-straight-alliance-works-to-crea...

I have a friend who has asked me to inquire of my fellow Nomads if anyone knows of any GSA groups in Tijuana or in the rest of Mexico?

If you have any information on this please U2U me.

Thanks,

Iflyfishconmilgbtamigos
If you post this question in the OT section I'm sure you will get a prompt answer from some the people that are banned from posting in this section or just never read it for some reason.

EnsenadaDr - 1-30-2013 at 12:37 PM

Who is banned from posting in this section?
Quote:
Originally posted by durrelllrobert
Quote:
Originally posted by Iflyfish
This great organization is doing some wonderful charitable work in Mexico as well as in the UsofA and Canada.
http://www.impcourt.org/icis/info/Documents/ICC_Trifold_Fina...

This group offers a safe place for LGBT (lesbian, gay, bisexual, and transsexual) students in schools across the United States and Canada supporting safe schools.
http://www.theswcsun.com/gay-straight-alliance-works-to-crea...

I have a friend who has asked me to inquire of my fellow Nomads if anyone knows of any GSA groups in Tijuana or in the rest of Mexico?

If you have any information on this please U2U me.

Thanks,

Iflyfishconmilgbtamigos
If you post this question in the OT section I'm sure you will get a prompt answer from some the people that are banned from posting in this section or just never read it for some reason.

JoeJustJoe - 1-30-2013 at 01:09 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Pescador
The LGBT movement in the United States became one of bullying and power grabs under the guise of Political Correctness. Because Mexican culture does not go out of it's way to find victims and because the victims don't seem to have the same platform for complaints as they do in the more liberal quarters of the United States, there seems to be less of a problem with LGBT students wanting to protest, demonstrate, and raise a fuss under the guise of having experienced discrimination.

Bajaboys comments about keeping their affections private is a pretty common part of the culture in the same way. You will occasionaly see a young couple showing affection, but that is also frowned upon by the older community in the same way.

If a family member is LGBT disposed, the ususal comment is something along the lines of a generic description of that person seems to prefer people of the same sex. And at some level the term queer or joto / jota is used in a generic term of wordplay, but in my experience I have never seen the students using it is a disparaging manner as a discriminitory putdown.

Now there is something you may want to look into and research. Why in the US with all the bullying that they employ to get supposedly equal treatment in terms of Same Sex Marriage and social acceptance, and all the protesting, lobbying, general disturbance, and all the other methods of fomenting change, do the words like "faggot", "queer", 'homo", etc., etc., have such a negative and hateful connotation? In Mexico, on the other hand, we see a much more balanced and accepting expression of alternative lifestyles and choices.


So a Mexican boy calling another Mexican boy a "Joto" isn't a putdown?

I wonder which Mexico schools you hang out in and hear these terms of endearment?

Well Pescador I'm just glad you didn't bring up the so-called "gay agenda" in the USA.

JoeJustJoe - 1-30-2013 at 01:51 PM

I agree with you EnsenadaDr that the Mexican attitude seems more relaxed in Mexico than the USA, but it's not that way everywhere in Mexico.

In the USA we are witnessing a shift in attitude and feelings towards gays. According to the polls, the younger you are, the more accepting you are towards gays in the military or same-sex marriage, and those same positive feelings towards gays applies to even young conservatives. However, the older you are, and on average. The older person seems more homophobic and is against gays in marriage, or same-sex marriage in high poll numbers. This could probably be explained that younger people are around more gay open people, than older people were when they were growing up.

I have no poll data on Mexicans and their feelings on gays according to age brackets, however there is something called the " "Two-Spirit" tradition, which I talked about once in the OT, and may explain some Mexicans feelings towards gays.

In Mexico you have two cultures, the Aztec culture that was based on Catholic traditional, and very homophobic towards gay. You have Mexican fathers that will get very hostile if he finds out he has a gay son, and will at times beat his son, and kick him out of the house.

But on the other hand you have the Mayan, or native Indian tradition that held the "two-spirit( formerly called berdache) in high regard with powers of a shaman, and were always consulted in spiritual matters. These two-spirit persons looked like a transgendered person and wore clothing of the opposite sex, and although a transgendered person is not always considered gay, it's doubtful the Indians would have the same hostile attitude towards gays that the Aztecs did, or the throwback macho Mexican father. The Indian side of Mexicans seem more accepting of gays, and transgendered people.

Of course this is just one theory, I see a lot of just looking the other way in Mexican culture too, especially with regards to the father, who seems to never know anything, yet you suspect he knows what's going on.

If interested in this subject just Google " "Two-Spirit" people.

greengoes - 1-30-2013 at 02:24 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by JoeJustJoe
So a Mexican boy calling another Mexican boy a "Joto" isn't a putdown?


Clase Espanol gratis para paco........

If they are both gay it isn't a put down. Also, if you call someone that it can be interpreted as showing interest.

But you should know all this considering the time you spend in Tijuana.

DavidE - 1-30-2013 at 02:41 PM

On the BART platform Oakland some years ago.

Two "gays" were giving each other tongue in the middle of the platform, then one reached down into the pants of the other.

I yelled at them "Please! Decorum!"

What did I get in answer?

"Why you dirty #$%^&$#@ no good &%^&%^$#$@#$% - @#$%^&*#@! straight ^%$#@#$%! HOMO PHOBE!!!!!"

The biggest obstacle to gays overcoming prejudice and anger, are the actions of the more outrageous members of the "gay community". They force "in-your-face" social confrontations.

It's like dialing up H Rap Brown, and Al Sharpton, to come and cool down racial tensions.

The gay community does little if anything at all to exert peer pressure on the extremists to act like "normal human beings" regardless of their sexual orientation.

I do not like extremists of ANY persuasion. Maybe that's why I much prefer living where I live.

Well, looking at the positives .................

MrBillM - 1-30-2013 at 02:48 PM

With that crowd, school sex will result in a lot fewer teen pregnancies.

Objectively, it should be Zero.

JoeJustJoe - 1-30-2013 at 02:51 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by greengoes
Quote:
Originally posted by JoeJustJoe
So a Mexican boy calling another Mexican boy a "Joto" isn't a putdown?


Clase Espanol gratis para paco........

If they are both gay it isn't a put down. Also, if you call someone that it can be interpreted as showing interest.

But you should know all this considering the time you spend in Tijuana.


How many kids you know Greengoes/JAK/Pepino that are openly gay and still in school? When kids come out it's usually after high school, because kids can be horrible to each other, especially towards weaker, and effeminate looking boys in both Jr High, and High School.

It sounds like Greengoes you been to many gay bars where this type of gay banter goes on, but I hardly think young boys on the playground that are calling each other Joto because they are showing same sex interest in each other. Bullying starts in grade school and looks like it continues into adulthood with some people especially in the OT, and where you hang out Greengoes.

greengoes - 1-30-2013 at 02:58 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by JoeJustJoe

It sounds like Greengoes you been to many gay bars where this type of gay banter goes on, but I hardly think young boys on the playground that are calling each other Joto because they are showing same sex interest in each other. Bullying starts in grade school and looks like it continues into adulthood with some people especially in the OT, and where you hang out Greengoes.


Actually, you are the one who has been linked to numerous other than heterosexual encounters in Tijuana, not I.

On a side note, I see in the near future this thread being moved somewhere.

:lol::lol::lol::lol:

DENNIS - 1-30-2013 at 03:04 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Iflyfish
Seems homosexuality was alive and well in MezoAmerica


My comments concerned my rendition and recollection of historic Baja, not exactly a part of the Plumed Empire. I'll leave the tracking of gays in Aztlán to Gary Jennings.

JoeJustJoe - 1-30-2013 at 03:05 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by DavidE
On the BART platform Oakland some years ago.

Two "gays" were giving each other tongue in the middle of the platform, then one reached down into the pants of the other.

I yelled at them "Please! Decorum!"

What did I get in answer?

"Why you dirty #$%^&$#@ no good &%^&%^$#$@#$% - @#$%^&*#@! straight ^%$#@#$%! HOMO PHOBE!!!!!"

The biggest obstacle to gays overcoming prejudice and anger, are the actions of the more outrageous members of the "gay community". They force "in-your-face" social confrontations.

It's like dialing up H Rap Brown, and Al Sharpton, to come and cool down racial tensions.

The gay community does little if anything at all to exert peer pressure on the extremists to act like "normal human beings" regardless of their sexual orientation.

I do not like extremists of ANY persuasion. Maybe that's why I much prefer living where I live.


I wonder David if you would show the same outrage if a young so-called straight couple were getting it on, kissing, and putting their hands down the pants in front of you on the bus? Or perhaps it's only gay couples that make out and throw it in your face, like ultra conservatives seem to say?

Where is John Ascroft when we need him? Ascroft sure did a great job of covering up that partially offending nude statue in the Great Hall of the Department of Justice.

EnsenadaDr - 1-30-2013 at 03:18 PM

Dennis, how did it go?

DENNIS - 1-30-2013 at 03:55 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by EnsenadaDr
Dennis, how did it go?


Went just fine. Cardioverted with one zap of 150 Joules. Sinus Rhythm is back in place....forever, I hope.


This is not me:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2nsN0vdXZuY




.

[Edited on 1-30-2013 by DENNIS]

EnsenadaDr - 1-30-2013 at 03:58 PM

I was hoping you would elaborate on this a bit more. A year or so ago, I mentioned about possibly doing a cardioversion to convert the atrial fibrillation. It was so surprising to me -that a well-known cardiologist in Ensenada dismissed it saying "it will come right back, even if it gets you into Sinus rhythm for a while." So don't try it? Ridiculous. Thank God you have the VA.
Quote:
Originally posted by DENNIS
Quote:
Originally posted by EnsenadaDr
Dennis, how did it go?


Went just fine. Cardioverted with one zap of 150 Joules. Sinus Rhythm is back in place....forever, I hope.


This is not me:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2nsN0vdXZuY




.

[Edited on 1-30-2013 by DENNIS]

BajaBlanca - 1-30-2013 at 04:19 PM

well, interesting thread to say the least

I want to comment that I have an adopted son who is gay. although he came to us when he was 9 (after his mom died), I had known him since he was born. And that is how I learned that GAYS are born GAY. There really is no choice for them except suffer in silence or come out of the closet. Foolishly, my husband at the time and I thought that we could make him a "macho man" by not encouraging his feminine behaviour. Hogwash. That kids was gay from the getgo.

I don't believe for a second that anyone, ever, would CHOOSE the sad and difficult life being gay.

Hopefully, one day our society will realize that gayness cannot rub off. It is what it is. If you are hetero, you will remain hetero and if you are gay, you will be gay.

There is an overtly gay kid in our local 7th grade, I have never seen the kids make fun of/tease/or even comment about him and they can be extremely cruel to each other over other issues.

Trying to put Queer Fear ...............

MrBillM - 1-30-2013 at 05:13 PM

To the Rear ?

So to speak ?

Skipjack Joe - 1-30-2013 at 07:28 PM

If 'gayness' is genetic then why are there gay people?

Surely there is no gene less 'fit' then the gay gene. If fitness is measured by the percent of offspring that survive then the gay gene has a fitness of zero. So how did it survive? Why wasn't it lost during millions of years of evolution?

I just have the questions, Ric.

Bajaboy - 1-30-2013 at 08:01 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by EnsenadaDr
I was hoping you would elaborate on this a bit more. A year or so ago, I mentioned about possibly doing a cardioversion to convert the atrial fibrillation. It was so surprising to me -that a well-known cardiologist in Ensenada dismissed it saying "it will come right back, even if it gets you into Sinus rhythm for a while." So don't try it? Ridiculous. Thank God you have the VA.
Quote:
Originally posted by DENNIS
Quote:
Originally posted by EnsenadaDr
Dennis, how did it go?


Went just fine. Cardioverted with one zap of 150 Joules. Sinus Rhythm is back in place....forever, I hope.


This is not me:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2nsN0vdXZuY




.

[Edited on 1-30-2013 by DENNIS]


We interrupt the current programing to have a private conversation here....:?:

durrelllrobert - 1-30-2013 at 08:18 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by DENNIS
Quote:
Originally posted by EnsenadaDr
Dennis, how did it go?


Went just fine. Cardioverted with one zap of 150 Joules. Sinus Rhythm is back in place....forever, I hope.


This is not me:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2nsN0vdXZuY







.

[Edited on 1-30-2013 by DENNIS]
I certainly hope your procedure wasn't that unorganized.

Just FYI

durrelllrobert - 1-30-2013 at 08:29 PM

150 joules = 1,500.000,000 ergs which equals
936,225,971,990,000,000,000 electronvolts and I'm sure they counted every one.

Iflyfish - 1-30-2013 at 08:42 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Skipjack Joe
If 'gayness' is genetic then why are there gay people?

Surely there is no gene less 'fit' then the gay gene. If fitness is measured by the percent of offspring that survive then the gay gene has a fitness of zero. So how did it survive? Why wasn't it lost during millions of years of evolution?

I just have the questions, Ric.


See my earlier post. Genes exist in potential and are manifest in a dynamic interaction with their environment. We are conceived female and then our genes manifest in the context of exposure to a hormone if we are male that morphs the tissues into our sex and reproductive organs. I describe this dynamic in an earlier post. Genes are not static, they are dynamic.

I don't believe there is a "gay gene", I think that's an oversimplification of a very complex dynamic that results in a wide range of anatomical, neurological and hormonal differences in human beings.

I hope that answers your question.

Iflyfish

The Happily Depressed

MrBillM - 1-30-2013 at 09:37 PM

A False Truth ?

"................the sad and difficult life being gay".

Wouldn't sadly gay be an oxymarooon ?

EnsenadaDr - 1-30-2013 at 09:43 PM

there are several diseases such as Kleinfelter's and Turner syndrome that have an abnormality in the genetic makeup of the individual which will cause them to have differences in physical sexual characteristics. All sex hormones are coded by genes, so I believe ultimately a person's makeup and ultimately their sexual preferences are genetic, IMHO, one person might have been coded for more or less testosterone, for example. There is still a lot of the human genome to be discovered and what genes are responsible for many bodily functions.
Quote:
Originally posted by Iflyfish
Quote:
Originally posted by Skipjack Joe
If 'gayness' is genetic then why are there gay people?

Surely there is no gene less 'fit' then the gay gene. If fitness is measured by the percent of offspring that survive then the gay gene has a fitness of zero. So how did it survive? Why wasn't it lost during millions of years of evolution?

I just have the questions, Ric.


See my earlier post. Genes exist in potential and are manifest in a dynamic interaction with their environment. We are conceived female and then our genes manifest in the context of exposure to a hormone if we are male that morphs the tissues into our sex and reproductive organs. I describe this dynamic in an earlier post. Genes are not static, they are dynamic.

I don't believe there is a "gay gene", I think that's an oversimplification of a very complex dynamic that results in a wide range of anatomical, neurological and hormonal differences in human beings.

I hope that answers your question.

Iflyfish

Genetic Mutants ?

MrBillM - 1-30-2013 at 10:06 PM

Could the current mutation have begun in the Gay 90s ?

Perhaps in Gay Paree ?

Among Gay Blades ?

Skipjack Joe - 1-31-2013 at 12:17 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Iflyfish
Quote:
Originally posted by Skipjack Joe
If 'gayness' is genetic then why are there gay people?

Surely there is no gene less 'fit' then the gay gene. If fitness is measured by the percent of offspring that survive then the gay gene has a fitness of zero. So how did it survive? Why wasn't it lost during millions of years of evolution?

I just have the questions, Ric.


See my earlier post. Genes exist in potential and are manifest in a dynamic interaction with their environment. We are conceived female and then our genes manifest in the context of exposure to a hormone if we are male that morphs the tissues into our sex and reproductive organs. I describe this dynamic in an earlier post. Genes are not static, they are dynamic.

I don't believe there is a "gay gene", I think that's an oversimplification of a very complex dynamic that results in a wide range of anatomical, neurological and hormonal differences in human beings.

I hope that answers your question.

Iflyfish


It does not answer the question, Iflyfish.

While it's true that gayness is undoubtedly caused by many genes that are expressed at different times during development they are still genes. It was stated that a person is born to be gay and has no control over it. Since you start out from one fertilized egg there is nothing but genetic material that makes you gay - no matter how complex that genetic interaction may be. And if natural selection occurs then they never pass on that genetic matter. A species should lose those genes over time.

The heterozygotes, the carriers, must be the reason they are still with us. It's like hemophilia. It's there in the carriers (Queen Victoria) but the homozygous descendants never live long enough to have children.

I'm sorry, Ric. We're going over the Hardy Weinberg equations now which measure gene frequencies over time as a measure of evolution. It just seems that they should be dropping as a result of natural selection against homosexuality.

I'll have to dig further. Perhaps the gay genes are linked (adjacent to) some other very beneficial gene that is being selected for and carrying the gay gene with it.

Clearly there are many carriers of gay genetic material in the 'normal' population that are totally unaware of it. It's not the type of research that would be greatly promoted. The human genome has been completely mapped out. The information is out there if there was interest. I'm sure many feel that kind of information could very destructive, but at the very end - facts are just facts, and values or opinions will not change anything.

EnsenadaDr - 1-31-2013 at 12:33 AM

Good old Google, lots of material on this: Is there a gay gene?

http://bigthink.com/think-tank/the-gay-gene-new-evidence-sup...

JoeJustJoe - 1-31-2013 at 03:52 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by BajaBlanca
well, interesting thread to say the least

I want to comment that I have an adopted son who is gay. although he came to us when he was 9 (after his mom died), I had known him since he was born. And that is how I learned that GAYS are born GAY. There really is no choice for them except suffer in silence or come out of the closet. Foolishly, my husband at the time and I thought that we could make him a "macho man" by not encouraging his feminine behaviour. Hogwash. That kids was gay from the getgo.

I don't believe for a second that anyone, ever, would CHOOSE the sad and difficult life being gay.

Hopefully, one day our society will realize that gayness cannot rub off. It is what it is. If you are hetero, you will remain hetero and if you are gay, you will be gay.

There is an overtly gay kid in our local 7th grade, I have never seen the kids make fun of/tease/or even comment about him and they can be extremely cruel to each other over other issues.


I think there are a couple of things go on that make some people gay. It would seem many gays as long as they could remember back, always felt they were gay, and perhaps they were born that way because of hormones or genes. ( we know scientist are looking for that gay gene)

However, many people that study this issue, also acknowledge that being gay can also be an acquired taste, or perhaps forced on them in childhood, through a controversial theory of some sort of "imprinting. If you look at children that were molested as children, there is a high percent of them that self-identify as being gay. ( now that's not to say ever gay person was molested, but I would be interested to see more studies in this area)

Many years ago I worked in a field that is thought of Man's work, similar to a construction worker, police officer, or tough military soldier, and this line of work, attracted physical fit women, and even many open lesbians who often worked harder than the men.

Over the years, I watched many women who identified as being lesbian, suddenly decide they want to marry a man, and have children. I have seen women, who seem straight in every way possible, with a husbands, and kids.......just pick up and suddenly adopt a gay lifestyle with a new girlfriend! ( According to a few studies. Women who self-identify as being lesbian, have more male sex partners on average than the so-called straight women!

Most psychologists still follow the teachings of Kinsey, that doesn't believe the world is divided into sheep and goats, and see human sexuality on a continuum of a scale between being being exclusively straight or exclusively gay, although most people are closer to one side of the scare than the other, and some are right in the middle.

I think it's back to the old nature versus nurture argument, and probably nature is the strong force, in a person self-identify of being so-called straight or gay, but at this time, I don't think anybody knows for sure, and it's all theories, anecdotal evidence, and alcohol. In other areas, it's just about an accepted fact, that what you do in the environment can shape your brain and body, although there is always that predisposition and instinct too.

[Edited on 1-31-2013 by JoeJustJoe]

shari - 1-31-2013 at 08:44 AM

I have met heterosexual women who changed teams as a result of the "acquired taste" theory...they just got fed up with dirty socks in the corner and doing all the work....hmmmm.

DENNIS - 1-31-2013 at 08:51 AM

It ain't just people:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aiT2OSAbogw

The three gay caballeros?

durrelllrobert - 1-31-2013 at 10:54 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by MrBillM
A False Truth ?

"................the sad and difficult life being gay".

Wouldn't sadly gay be an oxymarooon ?


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6R53S0VHQ1s

Iflyfish - 1-31-2013 at 10:57 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Skipjack Joe
Quote:
Originally posted by Iflyfish
Quote:
Originally posted by Skipjack Joe
If 'gayness' is genetic then why are there gay people?

Surely there is no gene less 'fit' then the gay gene. If fitness is measured by the percent of offspring that survive then the gay gene has a fitness of zero. So how did it survive? Why wasn't it lost during millions of years of evolution?

I just have the questions, Ric.


See my earlier post. Genes exist in potential and are manifest in a dynamic interaction with their environment. We are conceived female and then our genes manifest in the context of exposure to a hormone if we are male that morphs the tissues into our sex and reproductive organs. I describe this dynamic in an earlier post. Genes are not static, they are dynamic.

I don't believe there is a "gay gene", I think that's an oversimplification of a very complex dynamic that results in a wide range of anatomical, neurological and hormonal differences in human beings.

I hope that answers your question.

Iflyfish


It does not answer the question, Iflyfish.

While it's true that gayness is undoubtedly caused by many genes that are expressed at different times during development they are still genes. It was stated that a person is born to be gay and has no control over it. Since you start out from one fertilized egg there is nothing but genetic material that makes you gay - no matter how complex that genetic interaction may be. And if natural selection occurs then they never pass on that genetic matter. A species should lose those genes over time.

The heterozygotes, the carriers, must be the reason they are still with us. It's like hemophilia. It's there in the carriers (Queen Victoria) but the homozygous descendants never live long enough to have children.

I'm sorry, Ric. We're going over the Hardy Weinberg equations now which measure gene frequencies over time as a measure of evolution. It just seems that they should be dropping as a result of natural selection against homosexuality.

I'll have to dig further. Perhaps the gay genes are linked (adjacent to) some other very beneficial gene that is being selected for and carrying the gay gene with it.

Clearly there are many carriers of gay genetic material in the 'normal' population that are totally unaware of it. It's not the type of research that would be greatly promoted. The human genome has been completely mapped out. The information is out there if there was interest. I'm sure many feel that kind of information could very destructive, but at the very end - facts are just facts, and values or opinions will not change anything.


As usual I appreciate your thoughtful posts. Find below clarification of my prior post.

Below find an elaboration of Gd-H-B model, that I clumsily tried to describe in my prior post. This is complicated business as is our fetal development. A careful reading of this summary of the literature on the subject will clearly show that gender orientation is not is not a simple “lifestyle choice” and to assert that people who LGBT are the way they are solely by choice does a great injustice to these folks.
I am not asserting that this Gd-H-B model is the ONLY dynamic affecting gender but believe that this is a SIGNIFICANT piece of the puzzle. It is clear also that a single "gay gene" has not been found and in my view will not be found as a SINGLE causal agent in human sexual and gender differences.

"As the millennium approaches and a respected leader in our discipline retires at about the same time, it is fitting to reflect on some seminal issues in the field of behavior. One major issue is to comprehend, particularly in regard to behavior, factors which are important influences on sexual expression and the development of sex differences. A series of major breakthroughs occurred some four decades ago that had many, at least among the more biologically minded behaviorists, believing that such an understanding would soon be with us. Unfortunately, the feeling was premature. It is the purpose of this discourse to discuss aspects of sexual development and to offer insight as to why understanding such processes is much more complicated than initially assumed.
Historically one of the first breakthroughs was the determination by Jost and colleagues (Jost, 1953, 1961) that the fetal gonad, responding to its genetic endowment, elaborates substances that can influence the development of the internal and external genitalia. A second milestone can be considered the findings, in 1956 by Tjio and Levan, that the typical human chromosomal complement contained 46 chromosomes: 44 autosomes and the sex chromosomes, XX for females and XY for males. This clarification of basic genetics gave hope that further related discoveries would soon follow. A third milestone was provided by the findings of Phoenix, Goy, Gerall, and Young (1959) that endogenous prenatal hormones are crucial in the organization of adult sexual behaviors. Such hormonal actions were seen powerful enough to structure (organize) behavior patterns that would be manifest (activated) at puberty or after.
These now-classic papers, along with many others, established the broad developmental plan that, at least for mammals, the following pathway occurs:  genes on the sex chromosomes influence gonad development which determines gonadal hormone production (or its absence) leading to modification of the internal and external genitalia and simultaneously biasing the nervous system to organize adult sexual behavior (see e.g., Goy and McEwen, 1980). Even body morphology was supposed to follow along with this paradigm of sexual differentiation. This might hereafter be considered the classical “gonad to hormones to behavior” (Gd–H–B) model."

http://hawaii.edu/PCSS/biblio/articles/1961to1999/1996-from-...

Iflyfish

durrelllrobert - 1-31-2013 at 11:04 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by DENNIS
It ain't just people:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aiT2OSAbogw
Don't forget the Brown Pelican


Iflyfish - 1-31-2013 at 11:38 AM

Here is another, simpler, delineation of the complex dynamics and possibilities in sex and gender development. As the old English saying goes "There's many a slip twixt cup and lip"

http://www.gendertree.com/When%20Does%20it%20Happen.htm

I don't doubt that some people based upon experience develop a sexual preference for the same sex. I think that this is easier for females due to the different developmental paths for females and males. Females have the same body as their mother and don't have to, as males do, renounce the world of the female to go out and discover how males behave in the world.

Iflyfishmyrodandstaffcomfortme

Skipjack Joe - 1-31-2013 at 12:31 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Iflyfish

Females have the same body as their mother and don't have to, as males do, renounce the world of the female to go out and discover how males behave in the world.

Iflyfishmyrodandstaffcomfortme


OMG. Oh well, aristotle would agree. As I remember he thought females were underdeveloped males. I'll leave now.

DENNIS - 1-31-2013 at 12:37 PM

Who in this world could possibly care about the genetics of gaiety except those with a direct connection to it. Some here are taking the stance that homosexuality is the norm, and therefore a part of the Baja Story.
I believe differently. Homosexuality is the aberration that defies the order of reproduction and development which would be considered necessary to propagate a species in an area of sparse population, such as Baja in the distant past.
Sleep with whom you wish, but don't call it a cog on the gears of life sustenance. It isnt, any more than can be attributed to solo masturbation.





.

[Edited on 1-31-2013 by DENNIS]

A Queer Taste ?

MrBillM - 1-31-2013 at 12:48 PM

Joe says:

"..........that being gay can also be an acquired taste........."

Like a Gay Shake ?

DENNIS - 1-31-2013 at 12:53 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by MrBillM

Like a Gay Shake ?



http://mypetjawa.mu.nu/archives/Suleiman%20al-Alwan-gay.jpg

Iflyfish - 1-31-2013 at 02:47 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by DENNIS
Who in this world could possibly care about the genetics of gaiety except those with a direct connection to it.

I guess that would be me Dennis. Though I am a raging hetero myself I believe that this is the last great Civil Rights Issue in the USofA. I am not black yet I stood for Civil Rights. I stand for the Civil Rights of Women to be paid equally for their work. I have stood against the prejudices of Americans against Mexican and Asian minorities. I guess that's just how I roll.

I also stand with those who are trying to help. I started this thread to see if there was a particular group in Mexico that helped LGBT youth so that they might receive some financial assistance. It turns out that I was also able to help a Nomad who is alone and struggling with some of the issues addressed here.

I also think that is is naive to assume that there were no Gays or Lesbians that played a role in the development of Baja.

I also think it is arrogant, ignorant and dangerous to dismiss science with prejudice and vitriol.

I appreciate those who have helped me answer the question I posed about GSA's in Baja/Mexico and others who have contributed thoughtful responses to this thread.

Iflyfish

Skipjack Joe - 1-31-2013 at 03:47 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by shari
I have met heterosexual women who changed teams as a result of the "acquired taste" theory...they just got fed up with dirty socks in the corner and doing all the work....hmmmm.


Then you would probably agree with Katrin:



tZgHoyeSFTc

DENNIS - 1-31-2013 at 04:05 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Iflyfish
I also think that is is naive to assume that there were no Gays or Lesbians that played a role in the development of Baja.



I agree with that. The difference I see is that they didn't parade up and down the Camino Real dressed in purple jockstraps forcing their preferrences on the rest of their secluded world. I'm sick of seeing or hearing about that which some in the gay world seem to think I'm required to know.

By the way....is this a Civil Rights issue? Where in the Bill of Rights is gay love addressed?
They [all of them] are covered by protections of privacy, but that doesn't seem to be of interest to some of them.
They should be able to conduct themselves in all law abiding manners, but that doesn't include forcing a mandate of mainstream acceptance. That, to me, is an invasion of MY privacy, and I won't accept it.

Please....no more news footage of Gus and Homer kissing on the front steps of the court house. It is so overdone and boring.

And, Rick....you can quit professing your heterosexuality any time now. Don't worry....we get it. You're not gay, although you do seem to have an inordinate concern for being mistaken as such. :biggrin:




.


[Edited on 1-31-2013 by DENNIS]

Ateo - 1-31-2013 at 06:03 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by DENNIS
Homosexuality is the aberration that defies the order of reproduction .

[Edited on 1-31-2013 by DENNIS]


So other non breeders (sterile straight people, those who choose not to have kids) would also be considered an aberration using this logic. Or am I misrepresenting your argument? ;)

I think so much of our views on homosexuality comes down to the years in which we're born.

vgabndo - 1-31-2013 at 06:26 PM

Well, Rick, I've been busy packing etc. but a couple of times I've poked my head into this discussion, I've seen you refer to this issue as the last great social issue of our time. I very much disagree. There are far more gay people out of the closet than there are atheists. And, atheists are MUCH more hated and mistrusted than homosexuals. The amount of bigotry commonly and mindlessly heaped on those who choose not to worship any of the gods is a growing problem in the USA.

There is a huge movement in America to eliminate the last of the 1st. Amendment separation of church from the state. In six states it is still illegal for an atheist to serve on a jury. Why? Being the scum they judge us to be, we would just lie. This is something a Christian would NEVER do under oath. (we all KNOW that.) :fire:

DENNIS - 1-31-2013 at 06:38 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Ateo
I think so much of our views on homosexuality comes down to the years in which we're born.


Evidently, 1941 was a straight year.

Ateo - 1-31-2013 at 06:43 PM

Tell it like it is VGABNDO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

:biggrin::biggrin::biggrin:

DENNIS - 1-31-2013 at 06:51 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Ateo
So other non breeders (sterile straight people, those who choose not to have kids) would also be considered an aberration using this logic. Or am I misrepresenting your argument? ;)



Not an aberration, but certainly not a participant in the propagation of the species.
Before someone else brings this up, non-breeders [sounds so ranchy] can be good parents in spite of their lack of progeny.


Yes. You have misrepresented my argument.

woody with a view - 1-31-2013 at 07:38 PM

yeah, that damn de-evolotution!:lol:

Ken Bondy - 1-31-2013 at 07:39 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by vgabndo
Well, Rick, I've been busy packing etc. but a couple of times I've poked my head into this discussion, I've seen you refer to this issue as the last great social issue of our time. I very much disagree. There are far more gay people out of the closet than there are atheists. And, atheists are MUCH more hated and mistrusted than homosexuals. The amount of bigotry commonly and mindlessly heaped on those who choose not to worship any of the gods is a growing problem in the USA.

There is a huge movement in America to eliminate the last of the 1st. Amendment separation of church from the state. In six states it is still illegal for an atheist to serve on a jury. Why? Being the scum they judge us to be, we would just lie. This is something a Christian would NEVER do under oath. (we all KNOW that.) :fire:


Couldn't agree more vgabndo. Here's a little thing I wrote that I think you will find right on point!!

http://www.kenbondy.com/images/ProfessionalArticles/politics...

[Edited on 2-1-2013 by Ken Bondy]

Ateo - 1-31-2013 at 08:22 PM

Hey Ken,

Nice article you wrote. I particularly like this one:

"They (Republicans) preach loudly and endlessly that they want government out of our lives, and in the same breath they tell us who we can marry, that we can’t use birth control, and that abortions are forbidden".

Ok, I don't want to get too far off topic so I'll stop there. I'll add the word Baja to keep this sucker on topic. Baja -- I love it, and would almost marry it if I could. Does that make me gay or is Baja a woman?

Thanks.

:biggrin::biggrin::biggrin::biggrin::biggrin::biggrin:

So ............

MrBillM - 1-31-2013 at 08:23 PM

The Ungodly Queer would be the worst of the Put-Upon ?

DENNIS - 1-31-2013 at 08:28 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by soulpatch
Glad to see some things never change!:spingrin:


Threads morph. It's the nature of the beast driven word. :saint:

vgabndo - 1-31-2013 at 10:02 PM

One of the arguments against allowing oneself to be described as an atheist is that we don't go around calling people who don't believe in Leprechauns 'aleprechaunists', or people who don't believe in fairies, 'afairieists'. So Mr. Bill, perhaps my beloved brothers who walk a little lighter in their loafers COULD be a bit conflicted! :lol::lol:

Islandbuilder - 1-31-2013 at 11:25 PM

de-evolution is in fact, evolution, and is therefore impossible.

Just sayin.

vgabndo - 1-31-2013 at 11:42 PM

You are just saying that evolution is impossible? Next you are going to propose that talking snakes and parthanogenesis ARE possible, right? (I've read your other posts.):no:

Islandbuilder - 1-31-2013 at 11:47 PM

Nope. Not at all. Just saying that de-evolution is not possible by the definition of evolution. I don't need anyone to put the wrong words in my mouth, I have that covered.

vgabndo - 2-1-2013 at 12:02 AM

I stand corrected. De-evolution as I have heard it used is no way a reversal of natural selection, but a loose term meaning "the natural order of things doesn't seem to have worked", or has been made un-workable. Can evolution 'go backwards'? Perhaps not, but it is clear that non-random selection doesn't always come up with the best possible solution to the problem it is trying to fix.
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