BajaNomad

info sources?: Spanish trade route from Manila to Acapulco

BajaNomad - 8-12-2013 at 02:13 PM

Curious if anyone has input on recommended sources of historical info on Spain's Manila Galleons, and the Manila to Acapulco trade route (along the coast of Baja) from 1565-1815?

Have any favorites? Thx.

woody with a view - 8-12-2013 at 06:04 PM

you working on a lost galleon or what?

routes

John M - 8-12-2013 at 06:05 PM

Obviously there would be a bunch of stuff on line; are you asking for personal research results or reading list recommendations? Or?

There was, fairly recently I believe, remnants of a ship of that era found south of Ensenada. Hmmmm - this old age scourage of not remembering is the craps. An acquaintance who worked for BLM took part in the recovery of artifacts.


John M

Barry A. - 8-12-2013 at 06:08 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by John M
Obviously there would be a bunch of stuff on line; are you asking for personal research results or reading list recommendations? Or?

There was, fairly recently I believe, remnants of a ship of that era found south of Ensenada. Hmmmm - this old age scourage of not remembering is the craps. An acquaintance who worked for BLM took part in the recovery of artifacts.


John M


Would the BLM guy be Dr. Eric Ritter? If so I know how to reach him, or at least I did a couple of years ago----he has gone thru a divorce, so who knows, but I could try if that helps.

Barry

Dr Ritter

John M - 8-12-2013 at 07:00 PM

Quote:
Quote:
Would the BLM guy be Dr. Eric Ritter? If so I know how to reach him, or at least I did a couple of years ago----he has gone thru a divorce, so who knows, but I could try if that helps.


Barry, no it is not Dr. Ritter. I'd rather not mention his name in this forum without his permission but will U2U it to you.

John

Manila galleons

John M - 8-12-2013 at 07:55 PM

One particularly interesting Manila galleon incident involving Englishman Thomas Cavendish and the galleon Santa Ana off Cabo San Lucas in 1587 is well-documented in Capture of the Santa Ana in 1587 by W. Michael Mathes - Baja California Travel Series Vol. 18, 1969, Dawson's Book Shop.

John M

woody with a view - 8-12-2013 at 08:32 PM

well, i know of some central coast fishermen who swear there is a cave/grave with 7 small skeletons (children?) near the coast. they are scared to go back to this cave to show me-although i doubt it is anything, they seem to think this grave is centuries old-spanish explorers perhaps?

they also tell of a group of guys who built a small cabin in the middlew of nowhere over the course of a year or so. truck load after truck load. the guys kept to themselves and then never returned. whent eh fishermen went to check it out they found the shell of a house built around a big hole in the middle. the guys had dug up something and never returned.

i alwayw wondered if lost gold was involved?

Barry A. - 8-12-2013 at 08:43 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by woody with a view
well, i know of some central coast fishermen who swear there is a cave/grave with 7 small skeletons (children?) near the coast. they are scared to go back to this cave to show me-although i doubt it is anything, they seem to think this grave is centuries old-spanish explorers perhaps?

they also tell of a group of guys who built a small cabin in the middlew of nowhere over the course of a year or so. truck load after truck load. the guys kept to themselves and then never returned. whent eh fishermen went to check it out they found the shell of a house built around a big hole in the middle. the guys had dug up something and never returned.

i alwayw wondered if lost gold was involved?


I love stories like this-------------GOLD!!!!!!!

Barry

David K - 8-12-2013 at 10:25 PM

Any place with water could have been a stopping point for ships returning from Asia... Doug, they caught the current from off Japan and that took them somewhere off northern California, and the current pushed them south to Cabo and on to San Blas and Acapulco.

One of the initial purposes for missions in (Baja) California was to provide food (fruit) and water for the Manila galleon crews... Sadly, the padres did not succeed in finding any along the Pacific Coast of Baja.

David K - 8-13-2013 at 08:23 AM

Doug, perhaps pick up Peter Gerhard's book (this is a republished edition), or borrow mine?:



The original book title was 'Pirates on the West Coast of New Spain, 1575-1742' c1960 The Arthur H. Clark Company

There is mention of escorting the Manila galleon from Cedros Island on south.

[Edited on 8-13-2013 by David K]

BajaNomad - 8-13-2013 at 09:00 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by woody with a view
you working on a lost galleon or what?


Nope. :biggrin:

Right now, just something that I find of interest to learn more about the history of - nothing specific to any particular vessel.
Quote:
Originally posted by John M
Obviously there would be a bunch of stuff on line; are you asking for personal research results or reading list recommendations?


I've been running across random information online. Just curious if anyone has any other reading recommendations, whether it's links to quality online sources, or book recommendations, or ??
Quote:

There was, fairly recently I believe, remnants of a ship of that era found south of Ensenada... An acquaintance who worked for BLM took part in the recovery of artifacts.


There's a thread here on what they believe to be the remnants of the Galleon San Felipe. Stating it as "south of Ensenada" is being purposely vague in order to protect the location I suppose. I did some research at the time (all online) and was able to specifically determine where this was at.

http://forums.bajanomad.com/viewthread.php?tid=54044
Quote:
Originally posted by David K
Any place with water could have been a stopping point for ships returning from Asia... Doug, they caught the current from off Japan and that took them somewhere off northern California, and the current pushed them south to Cabo and on to San Blas and Acapulco.


Thank you. These basics I am aware of.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manila_galleon
Quote:
One of the initial purposes for missions in (Baja) California was to provide food (fruit) and water for the Manila galleon crews... Sadly, the padres did not succeed in finding any along the Pacific Coast of Baja.


Thank you. A good reminder.

bufeo - 8-13-2013 at 09:52 AM

Doug, I've just begun reading 1493 by Chas. Mann. The author has over 1000 works cited in the bibliography, and many are sources for the kind of information you may be seeking.

Allen R

BeemerDan - 8-13-2013 at 02:18 PM

[img][/img]
I took this pic of a plaque I saw in Acapulco last winter while riding down to Central America, I have no idea what it says or the meaning of it other than something about Japan, I also took a pic of a statue that was next to it, Don't know how to post two pics at once so next post:lol:

Info on BeemerDan post

John M - 8-13-2013 at 04:43 PM

Perhaps this excerpt from a book I have will help to explain the monument:

Two years later [1613] a more ambitious attempt at establishing relations with Mexico was begun under the sponsorship of Date Masamune, the leading Diamyo [most powerful feudal rulers] of Northern Japan. Hasekura Rokuemon, a retainer of Date, and Friar Luis Sotelo, a Spanish Franciscan, were joint leaders of this embassy to Philip III and Pope Paul V. They, with Vizcaíno and 180 Japanese sailors, merchants, and ambassadors, sailed from Japan in October 1613 on a Western-style shop built by the Japanese, or possibly on a repaired Spanish wreck. They reached Acapulco in January 1614 and went on to the capital of Mexico, where seventy-eight of the Japanese were baptized. Most of them returned to Acapulco; Hasekura, Sotelo, and sixty Samurai sailed on June 10 from Vera Cruz to Havana, and thence to Spain, arriving in October. After ceremonial visits in Europe, including audiences with the King of Spain and the Pope in 1615, they returned to New Spain. Probably in 1618 Hasekura and his embassy sailed from Acapulco to Manila in Date Masamune’s ship, which had meanwhile made a round-trip passage to Japan and back again to Acapulco. The mission finally returned to Sendai in August 1620 with very little consequence to show for its seven-year sojourn abroad.

From: the Introduction to Kaigai Ibun by Richard Zumwinkle, 1970, Dawson’s Book Shop: Los Angeles, p 10.

The book also has a few bibliographical references.

John M



[Edited on 8-13-2013 by John M]

No idea

BeemerDan - 8-13-2013 at 07:46 PM

Thanks John for the info, I always thought Japan was an isolated country in those days, I've read about Japanese fisherman stranded at sea, then washing up on the coast of Wa state and being held by the Makau indians out at Neah Bay. Amazing story