BajaNomad - Mission History Sources: Fact or Fiction?

Mission History Sources: Fact or Fiction?

David K - 11-9-2013 at 10:22 AM

One of my motivations for co-authoring 'The Old Missions of Baja & Alta California', back in 2012, was to have a handy guide with the basic facts of all the California missions, instead of spending hours of library research or collecting enough books to fill in the gaps. The Alta California mission documents were well protected, the Baja mission papers not nearly so... Details are out there, but often scattered in many places. Having more than one source of data helps confirm facts or to fix honest errors made by newer authors.

By double checking between authors, or the priests' own letters, one can find the truth about the past. Some ancient documents were discovered in recent years which has changed what we learned before. More will be discovered in the future, and the information we have now will be updated or changed.

The sources I have are in three groups:
1) The actual letters and reports made by the missionaries (translated into English from Spanish, Italian, Latin or German)
2) Books from the 1800's or early 1900's with details or quoted texts from the missionaries.
3) Books from the mid 1900's to early 2000's about the missions or Baja California.

From all the above, I get the data from which I write about the missions...

Here is what I have used to gather the data:

Group 1)

Group 2)

Group 3)

ADDED, from 1959 and reprinted in 1967:

That (I think) is most of them... It is a great joy to go back in time and try and imaging what happened and how.

To provide more detail on the Baja missions than what is in our book, I have started writing a series on the missions that appears in the Discover Baja Travel Club Blog and Newsletter:

Introduction to the missions

Chart of all 48 California Missions

1) Loreto

2) San Javier

3) Ligui/Malibat

4) Santa Rosalia de Mulege

5) San José de Comondú

6) La Purísima

7) Pilar de la Paz (La Paz & Todos Santos)

[Edited on 12-23-2013 by David K]

DianaT - 11-9-2013 at 10:45 AM

All of what you have listed are someone else's interpretation of primary and secondary sources. The best historians use primary sources, but even that will reflect bias. There is certainly nothing wrong with putting together information from these books, as long as one is aware that ALL written history reflects the author's belief system and time in which the history was written. Even translated primary sources reflect bias as often much is lost in the translation.

History is about 5% facts and 95% interpretation. Facts usually include things like dates, location, who won a battle, building materials, and other tangible things. But the heart of what something like the Mission system was, is a matter of interpretation, bias, and not fact. And no matter how many books one reads, that will not change. It is like reading about the American War of Independence, or the American Revolution, or the Rebellion of the Colonies.

And if you make money from your efforts, good for you. Most people touring places like the missions are really only interested in that 5% of tangible facts.

[Edited on 11-9-2013 by DianaT]

David K - 11-9-2013 at 02:12 PM

Since we were not alive when the missions were operated, we have no choice. The best source of what happened back then is to read what people alive at the time wrote... next would be to read the earliest interpretations, but to compare them all and use logic and common sense to derive the facts. Without a time machine, there is no better way. Most of the books published by Dawson are fantastic sources. Modern scholars and writers do the best they can. People like Harry Crosby traveled to the archives and read the untranslated works. Some like Engelhardt had bias and it comes out clearly in their writing.

What I do is to keep the interest and history alive... not allow it to die or disappear into mystery and confusion. The articles I am writing for Discover Baja are free, for everyone. The book I co-authored with two others is also out of love for history and accuracy. It is no Harry Potter, and nobody makes money on it, we are happy to just use the income to pay for more books and have it translated into Spanish, so the people of Baja also have a more complete story with correct info on the missions.

DianaT - 11-9-2013 at 02:23 PM

DK either someone "gets it" or they don't, and you don't and probably never will. Ni modo

Good luck with the book.

David K - 11-9-2013 at 02:33 PM

I get that some folks prefer to live in a fantasy and facts are just problems to be avoided.

Very few people have all these books, but the information they contain may have value to them... or at least some interest. When I research on a mission's history, I go through all of the books to find the data... and if it conflicts, I make a choice based on logic and common sense. If two stories have equal merit I will report that.

If you are not interested in the history of California during these years, that is fine... I am writing for the people who do want to know what happened, according to those that were there, or the next best source.

vgabndo - 11-9-2013 at 05:17 PM

David, You said...

"I go through all of the books to find the data... and if it conflicts, I make a choice based on logic and common sense. If two stories have equal merit I will report that."

And what your reader gets is YOUR INTERPRETATION of what was reported to have happened. Your logic and your common sense do not equate with evidence. If your primary sources conflict, I believe the history writer has an obligation to present BOTH sides of the argument and let the reader decide which is valid. When your common sense comes into play, the reader just gets what YOU think is true

If your primary sources disagree on what happened, THERE is your story. You report both primary sources, and prove your chops by comparing and contrasting the conflicting views accompanied by deeply researched background information. Or, you can make yourself more important and knowledgeable than either of the people writing in the 1700's and choose for yourself which source is telling the truth. Then people who care about the history of early California will get the facts, just as YOUR logic has decided those facts to be.

Thanks for helping me think about and recognize a couple places where I could edit my opinion out of some recent history writing I've done.

DianaT - 11-9-2013 at 06:02 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by vgabndo
David, You said...

"I go through all of the books to find the data... and if it conflicts, I make a choice based on logic and common sense. If two stories have equal merit I will report that."

And what your reader gets is YOUR INTERPRETATION of what was reported to have happened. Your logic and your common sense do not equate with evidence. If your primary sources conflict, I believe the history writer has an obligation to present BOTH sides of the argument and let the reader decide which is valid. When your common sense comes into play, the reader just gets what YOU think is true

If your primary sources disagree on what happened, THERE is your story. You report both primary sources, and prove your chops by comparing and contrasting the conflicting views accompanied by deeply researched background information. Or, you can make yourself more important and knowledgeable than either of the people writing in the 1700's and choose for yourself which source is telling the truth. Then people who care about the history of early California will get the facts, just as YOUR logic has decided those facts to be.

Thanks for helping me think about and recognize a couple places where I could edit my opinion out of some recent history writing I've done.

Yes, yes, yes and you will still be left with only a few tangible facts --- dates, etc. You understand. Even when you edit out obvious opinion, you cannot totally edit out yourself.

As you know, when historians are interested in the why and the basic essence of what happened, their books are basically very long argumentative essays with a thesis, well researched evidence, conclusions and often counter conclusions. All historians know that others faced with the same evidence will have different conclusions, and unless they are really arrogant, they know that they cannot take themselves out of their interpretations. It is why historians love to argue with each other; often through the writing of history books. Common sense is not a part of the equation.

A history book based on nothing but facts would be like a Civil War history book that just listed dates and places where the battles occurred, who won that battle (opps, even that can be questionable depending on one's definition of winning) how many troops fought, and maybe how many died. Those are tangible facts, usually.

Tour guides are usually very good at presenting those 5% of tangible facts and a bit of other history that may or may not be controversial.

David, I do hope you make some money from your book. You have the right to be proud of the work you put into the book.

[Edited on 11-10-2013 by DianaT]

Marla Daily - 11-10-2013 at 07:25 AM

THANK GOODNESS FOR GLEN DAWSON! Glen turned 101 on June 3 this year. Much of my Baja library came from Glen over a 30+ year period.

Read of his amazing life on Wikipedia.

ligui - 11-10-2013 at 07:34 AM

David , would love to read your book . how do i go about getting one ?

Also thanks for all the great maps and info on your posts ! :bounce:

Got Baja !!

David K - 11-10-2013 at 12:16 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by ligui
David , would love to read your book . how do i go about getting one ?

Also thanks for all the great maps and info on your posts ! :bounce:

Got Baja !!

ON line:
Amazon.com, DiscoverBaja.com, BajaBooksAndMaps.com, and our book's site OldMissions.com

Also sold at Discover Baja Travel Club, San Luis Rey Mission, San Gabriel Mission, San Fernando Mission, CAREM in Tecate, Baja Cactus in El Rosario, Baja Books and Maps in San Jose del Cabo... to name a few.
Thank you!

David K - 11-21-2013 at 11:02 AM

The point of this post, and the name (Fact or Fiction) is say that by comparing as many authors/ historians/ actual missionaries as possible, I can write the way it was with more accuracy. I am talking about names, dates, locations, populations. I hope that anyone who wants more will seek out these books (and others) that exist. For the more casual Baja history fan, what I am producing from these books and personal visits to the missions is perhaps enough? It may be just the beginning of a new hobby for you, however.

It is fun for me to solve a mystery or find a lost mission or inspire others to go to Baja and see Old California history, in person. I am sure there is plenty more to discover, new letters will be found, and it will just add to our knowledge and appreciation of California (Baja & Alta).

elbeau - 11-21-2013 at 11:56 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by DianaT
All of what you have listed are someone else's interpretation of primary and secondary sources. The best historians use primary sources...Most people touring places like the missions are really only interested in that 5% of tangible facts.

Diana, there's no way that you've read DK's book if you think its overall effect is to add bias rather than to reduce the bias of the primary and secondary sources and present the "5% of tangible facts" it in a concise volume.

Baja is fortunate to have a large number of primary sources, such as Bagaert's work listed above, and early secondary sources like Clavigero's work listed above. Before you go criticizing and trying to convince people that David is fundamentally introducing bias that travelers don't really want, go take time to read Bagaert, who is undeniably a primary source, then read DK's guide book and tell me whether or not his overall effort added to or reduced the bias of the original sources.

If you want to learn facts without an excess of bias (ie: the 5% people are actually interested in), read David's book.

Why so bitter about it anyways? It doesn't make sense. You've got some kind of personal grudge here and you shouldn't use it to mislead people about a book you probably haven't even read.

David K - 11-25-2013 at 05:44 PM

Since it was brought up, here is the book I worked on last year... In it (glovebox friendly size) are details from most all the books shown above about Baja's missions... Max has an immense library with all the Alta California mission details.

Having basic mission facts at one's fingertips was what we tried to accomplish. In the book is a list of the books utilized for gathering the information, since none of us were alive at the time the book covers.

The other goal was to educate everyone about the true founding of the California missions, listing the correct order and location of them all. Not just a few of them, not just important ones, and not just ones on one side of a line drawn years AFTER any and all the missions were founded!

The Spanish California Missions were founded by three Orders of the Catholic Church with the first successful one being Loreto, in 1697 and the rest over the next 137 years, from the nearly tip of Baja and all the way to the San Francisco Bay region.

academicanarchist - 12-23-2013 at 11:21 AM

One source on Spanish American missions, that includes the Baja California Missions, is my book Missions and the Frontiers of Spanish America published in 2005. Here is the Amazon link: http://www.amazon.com/Missions-Frontiers-Spanish-America-Soc...
http://books.google.com.mx/books/about/Missions_and_the_Fron...
http://www.unmpress.com/books.php?ID=11104110503250&Page...
http://www.h-net.org/reviews/showrev.php?id=11480

David K - 12-23-2013 at 11:33 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by academicanarchist
One source on Spanish American missions, that includes the Baja California Missions, is my book Missions and the Frontiers of Spanish America published in 2005. Here is the Amazon link: http://www.amazon.com/Missions-Frontiers-Spanish-America-Soc...
http://books.google.com.mx/books/about/Missions_and_the_Fron...
http://www.unmpress.com/books.php?ID=11104110503250&Page...
http://www.h-net.org/reviews/showrev.php?id=11480

Thank you for the links Robert... I must get this newer book you wrote to complement my 1994 book (you autographed to me)! Gracias...

I am currently writing a new article on the 17th California mission (Calamajué/Santa María). My poor copy of Engelhardt (1929) is falling apart after so many page flippings! Dunne's Black Robes in Lower California (1968) is also suffering! LOL

academicanarchist - 12-25-2013 at 11:35 AM

The most important source for the Franciscan period and the transition to the Dominicans is a series of detailed inventories and censuses prepared first by the Franciscans, and then by the Dominicans. They are in the AGN in Mexico City. I used the censuses in the demographic analysis of the indigenous population living on the missions. There are microfilm copies in The Bancroft Library at my alma mater.

willardguy - 12-25-2013 at 12:53 PM

David claims the franciscans failed in their attempt to colonize lower california largely because they arrived in JEEPS that just couldnt stand up to the rigors of the terrain, where the dominicans arrived on the scene in their fancy new japanese models that could go virtually anywhere, and they flourished.
any truth to this?

merry christmas david

David K - 12-25-2013 at 01:14 PM

Ho ho ho.... Merry Christmas Willardguy. The Jeep arrived a hundred years too late for the last Baja missions. Mules horses and burros helped however...

Padre Fernando Consag Diaries

David K - 12-27-2013 at 03:58 PM

This entire book is available to read online...

Reading the words from the missionaries before they get picked apart and retold is a big plus when searching for the past.

Consag was a missionary at San Ignacio and he was tasked for finding future mission locations. Consag was the padre in charge of Dolores del Norte, a mission that only existed on paper, but to be founded north of San Ignacio. The best site in the area was an oasis Consag called La Piedad. He explored north from San Ignacio's territory by sea and land in 1746, 1751 and 1753. In 1752 his La Piedad site became Mission Santa Gertrudis but founded by Padre Retz. The name Gertrudis was requested by its benefactor, over the proposed 'Dolores del Norte'.

Here is the link to the book online:

Consag History Book

ncampion - 12-27-2013 at 06:29 PM

David, do you believe there is a big pile of gold and jewels left hidden by the Jesuits when they got kicked out????

David K - 12-27-2013 at 06:46 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by ncampion
David, do you believe there is a big pile of gold and jewels left hidden by the Jesuits when they got kicked out????

No, and anyone who does lives in a fantasy world! All you need to do is read the padre's letters to realize how poor they lived and suffered many hardships, including death to apply their cause, to save souls and convert the natives to Spanish citizens.

mulegemichael - 12-27-2013 at 06:58 PM

dk....and i just HAVE to ask; are you catholic?....i would have to guess yes as you are all over the priest stuff....just curious, really......and do you know what a nun that wanders around blindly is called???....dummy!....a "roaming" catholic!

DianaT - 12-27-2013 at 07:09 PM

Certainly can't blame the Native Americans for seeking revenge against the people who wanted to destroy their entire way of life and did a good job of doing so.

I love the dedication in that book on line that refers to the padres as the "pioneers" of civilization" and credit them with "discovering" rivers and mountains. Even in 1923 the bigotry against the Native Americans was huge.

Then again, that was common. Woodrow Wilson wrote in his History of the US that not one "human being" survived the Battle of the Little Big Horn.

History is written by the winner

bajaguy - 12-27-2013 at 07:55 PM

I don't have a horse in this race, but......

It is unfortunate that there are no "primary sources" provided by the Indigenous Peoples of Baja California.....I'm sure that would put a different spin on things.

Reminds me of the old saw........"one man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter"

DianaT - 12-27-2013 at 08:48 PM

Yes, history is written by the victor --- brings to mind two of the many quotes from Voltaire that I like.

"Indeed, history is nothing more than a tableau of crimes and misfortunes."

And one that seems to fit this history quite well

"Of all religions, the Christian should of course inspire the most tolerance, but until now Christians have been the most intolerant of all men."

ncampion - 12-27-2013 at 09:24 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by DianaT
"Of all religions, the Christian should of course inspire the most tolerance, but until now Christians have been the most intolerant of all men."

Don't think that's been true for quite a while now. I haven't seen too many beheadings done by Christians lately. There seems to be one religion that has the lock on intolerance during this century.

David K - 12-27-2013 at 10:34 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by mulegemichael
dk....and i just HAVE to ask; are you catholic?....i would have to guess yes as you are all over the priest stuff....just curious, really......and do you know what a nun that wanders around blindly is called???....dummy!....a "roaming" catholic!

You asked this before, and I answered (did you not go back after you asked in that thread?)... You have a reason for repeating the same question I already answered.

I love history of (Baja) California... and religion has ZERO to do with why I read and write about it. It didn't matter what group wrote about Baja, but it was the Catholics who did all the recording for most of the period I am writing about. It could have been the Jews, Muslims, or Space Aliens... doesn't matter, as long as someone wrote down what they saw or experienced in Baja California then.

Your comments seem quite disrespectful to Catholics, the people of Baja California. Do you go to their churches and urinate on the doorway?

DianaT - 12-28-2013 at 09:18 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by ncampion

Quote:

Originally posted by DianaT
"Of all religions, the Christian should of course inspire the most tolerance, but until now Christians have been the most intolerant of all men."

Don't think that's been true for quite a while now. I haven't seen too many beheadings done by Christians lately. There seems to be one religion that has the lock on intolerance during this century.

It has changed to a degree among radical elements if one is speaking of physical violence. But it is with the radical elements.

And the same is true of the radical elements of Christianity but with less violence, most of the time. In this country, intolerant they are --- the new humane Pope is driving many of them crazy.

And back then, for many centuries the Christians won the prize for most intolerant. Even during the time of the Barbary Pirates, one captured by the Muslims usually fared far better than one captured by the Christians, including some Catholic orders of monks.

It certainly was not just the Catholics, including their mission systems, who were extremely intolerant and brutal in the so called "New World", the Protestants just did it differently, but the results were the same ---massive deaths and the destruction of many cultures.

History is often not a pretty thing and far too easy to romanticize. EVERY country does that.

monoloco - 12-28-2013 at 10:03 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by bajaguy
I don't have a horse in this race, but......

It is unfortunate that there are no "primary sources" provided by the Indigenous Peoples of Baja California.....I'm sure that would put a different spin on things.

Reminds me of the old saw........"one man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter"

Yes, I'm sure the original inhabitants of this land would have a different view of the invaders who were responsible for the demise of the people and culture that, despite a arid and inhospitable environment, flourished here for thousands of years. It is interesting, biased as it may be, to read the accounts of the early Spanish padres and explorers, it's too bad that no one ever recorded the oral histories or sentiments of the indigenous. Unfortunately they were just too blinded by their certainty of cultural and religious superiority to see any value in what they considered an inferior race of ignorant heathens.

David K - 12-28-2013 at 10:05 AM

The thread is (was?) about the books about the Spanish Period in Baja California... Why turn it into a N-zi style book burning? Not being interested in reading about the past (or what was said in the past) is fine. How many books were published on the subject shows an interest is there. Condemning a nation's religion because you don't believe in it or in God is a totally different topic.

As humans migrated, they bring germs and viruses that other humans are not adapted to. Causing death isn't intentional, but it happened. The deaths of the Indians was a huge failure from what the missionaries hoped for and meant an end to their work.

monoloco - 12-28-2013 at 10:20 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by David K
The thread is (was?) about the books about the Spanish Period in Baja California... Why turn it into a N-zi style book burning? Not being interested in reading about the past (or what was said in the past) is fine. How many books were published on the subject shows an interest is there. Condemning a nation's religion because you don't believe in it or in God is a totally different topic.

As humans migrated, they bring germs and viruses that other humans are not adapted to. Causing death isn't intentional, but it happened. The deaths of the Indians was a huge failure from what the missionaries hoped for and meant an end to their work.

The Spanish viewed the indigenous people of the New World as little more than slaves to exploit in their quest for riches. I'm sure some of the early missionaries had a more benevolent attitude, but their primary mission, and the reason they were supported by the crown was the exploitation of resources to finance Spanish conquest and world domination. The brutality commenced immediately when Columbus stepped onto Hispañola. I don't see anyone "burning books" here, it's all interesting, we just need to keep it in perspective.

[Edited on 12-28-2013 by monoloco]

David K - 12-28-2013 at 10:38 AM

An opinion made in recent years... perhaps to be 'politically correct'?

The truth is that the Indians enslaved each other, murdered each other, and if anything, the Spanish halted that activity when they instructed them to become civilized and live in a community of mutual benefit.

Sure, it totally changed their way of life... but as the documents show, the Indians came to the missions willingly, by the hundreds, to change their life. Perhaps being naked and hungry wasn't as much fun as having a purpose in a community and eating pozole instead of bugs, bats, and lizards?

steekers - 12-28-2013 at 10:44 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by DianaT
All of what you have listed are someone else's interpretation of primary and secondary sources. The best historians use primary sources, but even that will reflect bias. There is certainly nothing wrong with putting together information from these books, as long as one is aware that ALL written history reflects the author's belief system and time in which the history was written. Even translated primary sources reflect bias as often much is lost in the translation.

History is about 5% facts and 95% interpretation. Facts usually include things like dates, location, who won a battle, building materials, and other tangible things. But the heart of what something like the Mission system was, is a matter of interpretation, bias, and not fact. And no matter how many books one reads, that will not change. It is like reading about the American War of Independence, or the American Revolution, or the Rebellion of the Colonies.

And if you make money from your efforts, good for you. Most people touring places like the missions are really only interested in that 5% of tangible facts.

[Edited on 11-9-2013 by DianaT]

And just how did you get the 5% figure for "most people"? Are you a professor of history?

You naysayers ought to give David a break. I rarely write in on this Nomad board, but when I look for interesting things like missions and David is the author, there seems to be a predictable group of trollers wasting our time badmouthing others...grow up!

Pompano - 12-28-2013 at 10:55 AM

I fear the villagers are storming your gates again, David. But you're used to that by now, I'm sure.

Might be good for all to remember this advice from our childhood:

"Never argue politics or religion."

"No human thing is of great importance."

My morning coffee thoughts went this way: We need some higher water in that river to improve the fishing. And.....How many different points of view are there about religion today?

Easy peasy, just ask the God, 'Google'

There are about 21 major world religions today. About 1 billion people do not profess belief in any religion.

1. Christianity 2.1 billion
2. Islam 1.3 billion
3. Secular/Irreligious/Agnostic/Atheist 1.1 billion
4. Hinduism 900 million
5. Chinese traditional religion 394 million
6. Buddhism 376 million (see also buddhism by country)
7. Primal indigenous 300 million
8. African traditional and diasporic 100 million
9. Sikhism 23 million
10. Juche 19 million
11. Spiritism 15 million
12. Judaism 14 million
13. Bahá'í Faith 7 million
14. Jainism 4.2 million
15. Shinto 4 million
16. Cao Dai 4 million
17. Zoroastrianism 2.6 million
18. Tenrikyo 2 million
19. Neopaganism 1 million
20. Unitarian Universalism 800,000
21. Rastafari movement 600,000

Interesting. Want to join any? Probably not.

[Edited on 12-28-2013 by Pompano]

monoloco - 12-28-2013 at 11:24 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by David K
An opinion made in recent years... perhaps to be 'politically correct'?

The way the Spanish treated the indigenous people of the New World is not an opinion, it is well documented, starting with Columbus"s own written words upon encountering the Arawaks.

http://www.historyisaweapon.com/defcon1/zinncol1.html

What is politically correct, revisionist history is that Columbus and the Conquistadors who followed were some kind of benevolent explorers who just wanted to spread Christianity. I think you have done a superb job of putting together the history of the Spanish missions in Baja California, but we shouldn't lose track of why they were sent.

DianaT - 12-28-2013 at 11:26 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by steekers

Quote:

I do not have my doctorate in history, just my masters. And as you can read, I said "about" and I never had any history professor disagree with that. Probably the most interesting history class any student can take is one in historiography as it opens the door to what history really is all about.

And just how is this "badmouthing"? I was sincere in wishing him success with his book and there is a place for such a book.

"Grow up'? DK asked "fact or fictions". And I responded. His sources are fact AS SEEN BY the only side that recorded in WRITING what happened as they saw it; including their definition of civilized. And the facts included are things like dates, etc., That is what many people want. Every book has a market.

And DK? Where in the hell did you come up with book burning? That is really crazy and is simply name calling. All of the books you listed are valid and for any researcher are worthy of reading.

Why does it bother you so much for people to debate history? That is what it is all about. You seem to feel the need to defend what the Spanish did, and see it as a good thing; that is your point of view. Others disagree and you resort to name calling. And it has NOTHING to do with agreeing with anyone's religion or not --- nothing.

Good luck with the book; I hope you can earn some money.

[Edited on 12-28-2013 by DianaT]

danaeb - 12-28-2013 at 01:18 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by David K
Perhaps being naked and hungry wasn't as much fun as having a purpose in a community and eating pozole instead of bugs, bats, and lizards?

What? In one of the richest, most diverse marine environments in the world, the indigenous people didn't have an abundance of fish? Or did the Spaniards also "discover" fish in the Sea of Cortez?

David K - 12-28-2013 at 06:26 PM

Not all the Indians lived on the coast... but the ones that did consumed clams, oysters, etc. Hills of their shells are all around Baja... and can be seen far inland where they shellfish were brought back to their rancherías.

I have not read much about any fishing skills, that I can recall... I will see what I can find...

David K - 12-28-2013 at 06:38 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by DianaT

Quote:

Originally posted by steekers

Quote:

You keep mentioning money earning... that's not why Max, Erline or I wrote the book. Each book makes us less than $5 after printing, distribution, shipping and taxes... and that is divided between us 3 authors... so, unless it becomes as popular as Harry Potter, I will still be working in the dirt installing irrigation systems, thank you.

The reason for the book is to inform and educate the facts and complete story of the founding of ALL 48 California missions. They just didn't magically begin at San Diego and go northward "a day's ride apart"... Even if you think San Diego was the first mission, do you know that the second mission was not in Oceanside (San Luis Rey), but at Monterey and moved to Carmel soon after. So, even if Baja missions aren't something you care about... the 21 missions in Alta California are also shown in the correct order they were founded.

I apologize for the book burning comment, but this thread is about BOOKS and not Catholics or diseases that kill... Soiling the books written about Baja's past here is akin to burning them so others can't enjoy conversation about what was written.

DianaT - 12-28-2013 at 06:59 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by David K
Soiling the books written about Baja's past here is akin to burning them so others can't enjoy conversation about what was written.

DK --- read that statement. It is not only absurd, it makes no sense. A part of the conversation about ANY book, or ANY history is an inclusive process that includes all opinions, and a complete (or partial) analysis of what is written and or the situation. The end result will be different for everyone.

It is not soiling a book to discuss its bias, its reflection of the time in which it was written, nor does disagreeing with its conclusions soil it in any way what so ever.

If those elements are left out of the conversation, it becomes a pile of platitudes.

You don't need to defend why you wrote the book. You have the right to be proud of what you have accomplished. It is what it is.

[Edited on 12-29-2013 by DianaT]

David K - 12-28-2013 at 07:23 PM

Okay... well to ask what my religion is and then think I MUST be a Catholic to write about missions is stupid, in my opinion. That to me is very distracting to an educational discussion.

u2u me your mailing address and I will ship you a copy, on the house. You keep wanting to discuss my book, but I don't think you have even looked at it, and you should have one to see what we are trying to do. By-the-way, more than one published historian with a PhD has reviewed the book before and after publishing. Happy New Year.

DianaT - 12-28-2013 at 07:58 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by David K
Okay... well to ask what my religion is and then think I MUST be a Catholic to write about missions is stupid, in my opinion. That to me is very distracting to an educational discussion.

u2u me your mailing address and I will ship you a copy, on the house. You keep wanting to discuss my book, but I don't think you have even looked at it, and you should have one to see what we are trying to do. By-the-way, more than one published historian with a PhD has reviewed the book before and after publishing. Happy New Year.

I don't care what religion you are or are not and would never ask. I will admit that I detest what the mission system stood for and how it went about their pursuits. And yes, I am not a Catholic, but I LOVE the current Pope and I am sure he would have done it all differently. But that was a different time.

Your book serves a purpose, just as all books do. And if you are going to write, you will receive reviews, good, bad and indifferent. And to disagree with some of your conclusions does not devalue your work. Good lord, put five people who hold a PhD in history in a room, and you will hear five different interpretations of history.

The mission system is a part of the history of all of California; some still see it as positive, and some see it as a brutal disaster. BTW--as just a side note, one of the most interesting missions I have visited was a Jesuit Mission in Montana on the Flathead Reservation. As a building, it is beautiful --- a real work of art, but from a cultural point of view, it had the very mixed effect, mostly negative as far as culture goes, on the native Americans as did the earlier missions in California.

Your goal of correcting facts surrounding dates, etc. is good and is a part of the history; a history that overall some of us see as a very negative happening.

[Edited on 12-29-2013 by DianaT]

David K - 12-28-2013 at 08:08 PM

You are not the one who has twice now (next to your replies) questioned my religion and made derogatory comments about Catholics... if I can see it, surely you can too? Thank you, have a nice weekend.

elbeau - 12-29-2013 at 12:21 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by DianaT...And if you are going to write, you will receive reviews, good, bad and indifferent. And to disagree with some of your conclusions does not devalue your work...

Um...are you saying that you're reviewing DK's book which you apparently haven't even laid eyes on?

Exactly which of his book's conclusions do you disagree with?

Anyone who's got the book knows how laughable it is for you to say this.

Please read the book...he's offering it to you for free...then come back to this thread and enlighten us about all the things in it that you disagree with.

wow

DianaT - 12-29-2013 at 08:53 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by elbeau

Quote:

Originally posted by DianaT...And if you are going to write, you will receive reviews, good, bad and indifferent. And to disagree with some of your conclusions does not devalue your work...

No, I guess I did not make it clear. I am NOT reviewing his book. That was a generic statement as a response to him referring to disagreement with books as soiling books which it does not. Strictly generic as when ever anyone does any writing for others, everyone who reads it becomes a reviewer --- how well I know --- and for that, one needs to be prepared.

I just disagree with his conclusions that he freely states here on this forum--- his DEFENSE of the the mission system as having been an overall good thing that spread "civilization". And I disagree that his source books are strictly factual and without bias. He is free to see it that way; it is his opinion. Others share a very different opinion about the results of the mission system.

I would not disagree with his dates, locations, etc. and I keep wishing him good luck with the book.

elbeau - 12-29-2013 at 10:05 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by DianaT
No, I guess I did not make it clear. I am NOT reviewing his book. That was a generic statement as a response to him referring to disagreement with books as soiling books which it does not. Strictly generic as when ever anyone does any writing for others, everyone who reads it becomes a reviewer --- how well I know --- and for that, one needs to be prepared.

...I just disagree with...his DEFENSE of the the mission system as having been an overall good thing that spread "civilization"

So, you're just worried for his sake that he's not prepared for a possible onslaught of criticism from book reviewers who have actually read his book? ...I'm still not following your train of thought and more than that I just don't believe that you're being honest about whatever it is that's got you so wound up that you want to warn people about this book you've never seen.

It's just weird Diana, there's something else behind your arguments here.

Just look at the very first thing you said in response to him listing titles of his sources: "All of what you have listed are someone else's interpretation of primary and secondary sources...History is about 5% facts and 95% interpretation...But the heart of what something like the Mission system was, is a matter of interpretation, bias, and not fact...if you make money from your efforts, good for you. Most people touring places like the missions are really only interested in that 5% of tangible facts"

There is so much wrong with this first bunch of garbage that you spewed at him that it's hard to know where to start. I mean, the first sentence you wrote is not just a little factually wrong, you either decided to make that statement without even attempting to see if it was true (something I wouldn't expect from someone like yourself who touts masters degree in history) or you knew it was a lie and said it anyways. How can you possibly say "all that [he] has listed are others interpretations of primary sources". He lists plenty of primary sources. You either lied (a trait in an historian that is even worse than opinions) or you were so caught up in wanting to disparage him that you didn't care to check. That's not cool at all.

That same post is not subtle about trying to give people the impression that you have judged the content of his book to be 95% interpretation...but you have never even seen his book. Give me a break. The irony is that you're the one arguing on behalf of books that only spout facts while he's the one writing books that match that description quite well...then you criticize him for it without even knowing what you're talking about.

This isn't about you defending the ancient inhabitants of the peninsula against DK's view of "civilization"...that argument emerged long after you started this weirdness and you're not even quoting him correctly when you put quotation marks around that word. The term "civilization" was first brought up by you in your mockery of the introduction to the book about Konscak but after DK wrote his opinion (which I disagree with btw) that the mission system was desirable for the natives.

Give us a break. Whatever it is that's actually motivating you to want to stir people up against DK, don't take it out on a book that you're completely ignorant about.

David K - 12-29-2013 at 11:22 AM

Thank you for the time spent in this thread... I made it to show my sources for Baja mission history, which I am writing about here on Nomad, for Discover Baja Travel Club and have for Baja Bound Insurance.

The title "Fact or Fiction" was to indicate that books on mission history are not consistent and some books don't agree with each other... an article on that may be of interest? Even the good works of recent authors like Harry Crosby and Edward Vernon (I know them both personally) have 'errors' when compared to the actual writings of the missionaries of the time.

My new book is not error-free, but it was more the case of typos for us... (with the latest printing those get corrected and they are posted on our Facebook page so updating can be done by all older edition owners).

As for Diana T's comments about my responses... It wasn't just you I responded to... yet you took it personally. The other Nomad who twice commented about my religion or motives was who I was addressing. What he said more than you said was an absolute attempt to soil this thread and had nothing to do with content discussion... akin to book burning, in my opinion.

Now DT, if you were really interested in the book to be fair with what you have to say about it, I offered one free to you... as I know you haven't bought one. It isn't a scholarly work, and I am sure the English grammar and punctuation is not perfect (remember I am only 1/3 of the book's authors and Max actually did the data entry I gave him).

The book is designed to convey how the missions were founded: who, what, when, where, why, how... in the short, simple format. One page per each mission for text and a page for photos. There are also chapters on how the Spanish came to California, what the three mission orders were about, and maps to show where in the three states of California the missions are placed... a couple of historic maps, too. A lot of data, and we think twenty bucks with free shipping is a reasonable price to ask.

The book fits in your glove box so as you travel about California (Baja & Alta) you will have the basic data on every mission without prejudice to what country you are in or how prosperous the mission was.

DianaT - 12-29-2013 at 11:34 AM

elbeau --- you are free to interpret things as you see fit and make personal assumptions based on your interpretation. That is what it is all about!

Again, I have nothing against his book and over and over I wish him well. I know he says he is not making any money, but that may change if the volume of sales increase, and for him, that would be a good thing.

DianaT - 12-29-2013 at 11:39 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by David K
....

The book is designed to convey how the missions were founded: who, what, when, where, why, how... in the short, simple format. One page per each mission for text and a page for photos. There are also chapters on how the Spanish came to California, what the three mission orders were about, and maps to show where in the three states of California the missions are placed... a couple of historic maps, too. A lot of data, and we think twenty bucks with free shipping is a reasonable price to ask.

The book fits in your glove box so as you travel about California (Baja & Alta) you will have the basic data on every mission without prejudice to what country you are in or how prosperous the mission was.

Yes, that is EXACTLY what I have been saying! That is your book, and it has a place! A lot of DATA. BTW--- I have briefly seen a copy. DATA, DATA, DATA and that is what many people want.

But DK--- please stop with the soiling and burning references. And yes, I knew to whom you were referring, but it was just another opinion, and not soiling as you call it.

[Edited on 12-29-2013 by DianaT]

David K - 12-29-2013 at 11:46 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by DianaT
elbeau --- you are free to interpret things as you see fit and make personal assumptions based on your interpretation. That is what it is all about!

Again, I have nothing against his book and over and over I wish him well. I know he says he is not making any money, but that may change if the volume of sales increase, and for him, that would be a good thing.

I said I make 1/3 of about $5 per book... not enough to live on, no. I didn't agree to work with Max and Erline for the money, I did it so the Baja missions could have the best facts available for everyone's benefit.

I have authored two guidebooks on Baja when I was a teenager and co-authored a book on irrigation in 1992... I am no stranger to writing how to or information guides. An editor from Sunbelt connected me to Max (they had published his El Camino Real and its Historic Bells book) when he was working on a new book about the California missions.

academicanarchist - 12-30-2013 at 01:09 PM

There are a handful of accounts recorded as presented by natives who had lived in missions, such as that of Lorenzo Asisara (dictated to Alphonse Pinart), that narrated the murder of a Franciscan missionary at Santa Cruz mission in 1812. The natives ritually mutilated the missionary, which was an expression of their view of mission life. Manuel Rojo recorded accounts by former mission residents in northern Baja California in the 1850s as well.

The key to debates oveer historical issues is "respect," and not letting a debate degenerate into a peeing match, as this thread recently has done. I have known David K. for many years, and may not agree with all that he writes about the missions. However, I do not ask questions that are irrelevant such as what his religious beliefs might be, and I certainly do not engage in peeing matches because I may disagree with him.

The bottom line to understanding the missions is that they evolved in and as part of a colonial system predicated on the culturally chauvinistic assumption held by all Europeans who came to the Americas, that the native peoples of the Americas were inherently inferior and had to be "civilized." The missionaries functioned as agents of the colonial state. There is no secret about that. In the 1630s, the Puritans in New England launched a genocidal war against the Pequots for fun and profit (Pequot survivors were sold into slavery). In the 1550s, the Spanish launched a war to try to exterminate the Chichimecas. It was all part and parcel of the same EUropean colonial agenda. We can debate how this played out in Baja California, but with respect.

academicanarchist - 12-30-2013 at 01:27 PM

Let me add that in the 30 odd years I have been writing about missions, I have made extensive use of primary sources written by missionaries. I recognize their bias and perspective, but do not discount them because of the views that they held hundreds of years ago.

mtgoat666 - 12-30-2013 at 01:57 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by David K
An opinion made in recent years... perhaps to be 'politically correct'?

The truth is that the Indians enslaved each other, murdered each other, and if anything, the Spanish halted that activity when they instructed them to become civilized and live in a community of mutual benefit.

Sure, it totally changed their way of life... but as the documents show, the Indians came to the missions willingly, by the hundreds, to change their life. Perhaps being naked and hungry wasn't as much fun as having a purpose in a community and eating pozole instead of bugs, bats, and lizards?

i detect a bias,...

why do you think the pre-contact natives lacked purpose in a community? what's your evidence they did not have fulfilling communities?

and why do you think they ate bugs, bats and lizards? from what i understand many (most? all?) of the natives migrated seasonally between inland and coast, and probably had varied diet.

for your next book, would be interesting if you tried to live for one year as a pre-contact native and chronicle the experience,...

Quote:

Originally posted by David K
The truth is that the Indians enslaved each other, murdered each other, and if anything, the Spanish halted that activity

the spanish never enslaved or murdered the indians?

[Edited on 12-30-2013 by mtgoat666]

monoloco - 12-30-2013 at 03:57 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by academicanarchist

The bottom line to understanding the missions is that they evolved in and as part of a colonial system predicated on the culturally chauvinistic assumption held by all Europeans who came to the Americas, that the native peoples of the Americas were inherently inferior and had to be "civilized." The missionaries functioned as agents of the colonial state.

I think that it important to keep that in perspective when reading any accounts written during the period.

David K - 12-30-2013 at 04:22 PM

Goat, I said the Spanish halted the Indians from enslaving and murdering each other. I never said the Spanish were innocent of doing evil, but generally the missionaries were not cruel and frequently saved the Indians from punishment or death by the soldiers. The current New-Speak popular teaching is that the Europeans were the only evil ones in the world, and if they never came to the Americas all would be wonderful. Just isn't reality, so that's why I mentioned how barbarous the Indians also were to each other.

The purpose of this thread WAS so anyone interested could read the same sources I read... if you wanted the bigger story. I use the sources to CORRECT errors made by some authors (and INAH) when providing the data for each mission (date, location, name, etc.). I am into details, not theology. Stuff happened. That I write about it doesn't mean I approve of it or condone it. Is that really hard to understand? Thank you.

[Edited on 12-30-2013 by David K]

academicanarchist - 1-3-2014 at 06:10 AM

Good morning from Mexico City. In the 1580s a man named Diego de Camargo wrote a manuscript called the History of Tlaxcala, which also contains a collection of drawings. The original manuscript is now found in the University of Glasgow. One of the images shows the execution by hanging and burning of a group of natives, including a woman, accused of idolatry, or in other words of continuing to practice their old religious beliefs. A group of Franciscans observe the execution. This image documents one of many instances of punishments, including capital punishment, of natives who did not embrace the new faith. Juan de Zumarraga, a Franciscan and the first bishop of Mexico, initiated the inquisition campaign, and one of the high profile cases was of don Carlos, the tlatoani or political leader of Texcoco. Zumarraga had don Carlos burned at the state on December 1, 1539, after being judged for hereditary dogmatism, or not fully collaborating with the Franciscans in their morals campaign.

Although prohibited, missionaries in central Mexico used corporal punishment against natives who did not toe the line. The forms of corporal punishment the missionaries used were alien to native culture. The missionaries stationed on the northern frontier, including on the missions of Baja California and California, routinely used different forms of corporal punishment. The 1812 answers to a set of questions sent by the Spanish government describe the forms of corporal punishment, as well as do other documents. Manuel Rojo, the Chilean who worked for the Mexican government in northern Baja California, recorded one account dictated by a native that described the forms of corporal punishment. The natives at Santa Cruz mission who killed Andres Quintana, O.F.M. did so because he whipped the natives with a whip that he had added small pieces of metal to. These were not isolated incidents, but rather the norm.

Years ago The Academy of American Franciscan History published collections of documents written by Franciscan missionaries. Francis Guest, O.F.M., engaged in creative transslation when he translated the Spanish word "beat" as in beaten into slap, to soften what the missionaries had written. The same Franciscan published an article years ago that examined the interpretation of SF Cook on the treatment of natives in the California missions. In his apologia Guest argued that the use of corporal punishment on the native populations was acceptable, because it was a cultural norm in contemporary Spain. However, and this is the key point, it was not a norm in native cultures, and was cruel by native standards. Guest and other Franciscans of like mind try to ignore or change the reality of the common practice of corporal punishment.

Slavery certainly did exist in native cultures in central Mexico (not in Baja California), but it was different in concept from chattel slavery introduced by the Spaniards. Theree were culturally accepted norms of treatment of slaves which were much milder than the norms introduced by the Spaniards.

As I stated in a previous post, the bottom line is that the Spanish and all Europeans who came to America held ideas of cultural superiority, and held the natives to be inferior and to be exploited for the benefit of the Spanish. The missionaries viewed the natives as "children with beards," or as being childlike and intellectually inferior. The missions were a part of a larger exploitative colonial system.

academicanarchist - 1-3-2014 at 06:38 AM

The second relevant point is that the natives in Mexico, including Baja Californiia, lived in communities, that were different from the Spanish norm. Dietary standards were also different. People in Mexico and other areas in the world consume things that most gringos would not touch. Oaxaca, for example, is known for the consumption of grasshoppers and different types of worms that grow on cultivated plants such as the maguey. The Spanish introduced wheat to Mexico, because they refused to eat corn, which in their mind was an inferior indigenous grain not fit for their consumption. Standards of dietary consumption was another example where the Spaniards showed extreme cultural bias.

academicanarchist - 1-3-2014 at 06:48 AM

I am posting a link to the Lienzo de Tlaxcala at the University of Glasgow. The link does not contain the image I mentioned, but two others. One shows the execution of a native who the missionaries found making a blood in a cave. The second shows the burning of idols, and a native priest.

http://special.lib.gla.ac.uk/exhibns/month/jan2003.html

Mexico in the 1500's

David K - 1-3-2014 at 11:30 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by academicanarchist
I am posting a link to the Lienzo de Tlaxcala at the University of Glasgow. The link does not contain the image I mentioned, but two others. One shows the execution of a native who the missionaries found making a blood in a cave. The second shows the burning of idols, and a native priest.

http://special.lib.gla.ac.uk/exhibns/month/jan2003.html

Thank you Robert... I also read that the Franciscans were more brutal than the Jesuits and the Dominicans were as well...

From academicanachist's link:

Before the European brutality, the Native Americans practicing their religion?

Here is one that academicanachist emailed me to share here:

academicanarchist - 1-3-2014 at 06:39 PM

I am attaching the other image from the lienzo de tlaxcala that I mentioned in an earlier post. In the introductory chapter to my most recent book I discuss cases of idolatry, and how the missionaries responded to the growing evidence of the superficiality of what they believed to have been the conversion of the native population. Another early issue was the baptismal controversy, or mass baptisms of natives with little or no previous indoctrination.

[Edited on 1-4-2014 by academicanarchist]

H242_0242rwt.jpg - 43kB

academicanarchist - 1-3-2014 at 06:42 PM

One of the most notorious idolatry cases occurred at the Yucatan Franciscan mission at Mani in 1562. Diego de Landa,O.F.M., the first bishop of the Yucatan, ordered the destruction of hundreds of Maya cultural articles, including codices or painted manuscripts that contained much of the knowledge of pre-Hispanic civilization.

[Edited on 1-4-2014 by academicanarchist]

[Edited on 1-4-2014 by academicanarchist]

[Edited on 1-4-2014 by academicanarchist]

100_2743.jpg - 49kB

academicanarchist - 1-3-2014 at 07:03 PM

Around 1540, the Augustinian missionary posted to Ocuilan (Edo de Mexico) also uncovered covert sacrifices in a cave near the mission. The sacrifices most likely were to Tlaloc, the god that brought rain and gave humans the gift of corn and other cultigens. Only ruins remain today at the site of the mission.

F1130016.JPG - 50kB

academicanarchist - 1-3-2014 at 07:10 PM

This blog discusses the history and architecture of 16th century missions in central Mexico. I have posted many photos here, as have others. The photos posted are pretty representative of the 16th century missions that survive today in the region.
http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=355929

willardguy - 1-3-2014 at 07:13 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by danaeb

Quote:

Originally posted by David K
Perhaps being naked and hungry wasn't as much fun as having a purpose in a community and eating pozole instead of bugs, bats, and lizards?

What? In one of the richest, most diverse marine environments in the world, the indigenous people didn't have an abundance of fish? Or did the Spaniards also "discover" fish in the Sea of Cortez?

let me throw in my archaeological 2 cents.
one of the unexpected aspects of building the new road from puertecitos to gonzaga was the discovery of many sites dating back up to 8000 years where mountain nomads would travel to the coast to fish. imagine how many more sites are undiscovered and how many there must be up and down the coasts!

David K - 1-4-2014 at 12:46 AM

Baja has sure been attracting people since they came to North America! Is that the site that delayed the highway work just south of El Huerfanito for a bit?

I was wondering if it was a post ice age site (8,000 years) or a Cochimí ranchería site described by the Spanish in the 1700's?

[Edited on 1-4-2014 by David K]

willardguy - 1-4-2014 at 01:54 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by David K
Baja has sure been attracting people since they came to North America! Is that the site that delayed the highway work just south of El Huerfanito for a bit?

I was wondering if it was a post ice age site (8,000 years) or a Cochimí ranchería site described by the Spanish in the 1700's?

[Edited on 1-4-2014 by David K]

take your pick!

Other materials discovered within the camps consist of pipe fragments, lithic artefacts including arrowheads, ceramics, and the remains of molluscs, shark, dolphin, deer, wild sheep and pronghorn.
Evidence of bonfires were also located at each occupation level, and preliminary studies suggest three distinct periods:
8,000 and 9,000 years old (Palaeo-Indian)
3,000 years old (Archaic)
1,000 years old (Cochimi).

David K - 1-4-2014 at 07:48 PM

So did the new highway destroy the site (after the archeological examination)?