BajaNomad

THE EJIDO IS AT IT AGAIN..............

DENNIS - 12-4-2013 at 12:40 PM

Ejido Esteban Cantú, of Punta Banda expropriation fame, is doing what they have historically done in the past, taking back property........this time the land at roads's end in La Bufadora. The same land on which sits the curio shops, as well as houses above the single tourist destination Ensenada has to offer. Ensenadenses consider this their Disneyland.

Details are sparse for an outsider at this time, but a partial traffic blockade has been formed at the entrance to the "mall" and angry attendants of the take-over are present in numbers with their banners and signs.

My information is that recently the landlord, who had been renting the Puestos [stalls] to merchants at no small price, was informed by the Ejido that he was out, and they were in.
Not only in, but their protesting presence in numbers is insisting the current tenants vacate the premises.
This should be the beginning of a heated court battle, and when/if I see the Army make a presence in the issue, the international reputation of Mexico being a safe place to invest and live will take a thirty year step backwards.....regardless of who's right or wrong.

The damage to local tourism will be immediate as this is the destination of the tour busses and taxis [many] bringing passengers from the cruise ships, and they must pass, on foot, the menacing looking protestors at the entrance.

It's not a pretty picture.

Mexitron - 12-4-2013 at 12:54 PM

Is this the guy that took back the gringo properties on the estero years ago?

Property is a strange beast in Mexico, at least from what I know. My worker said a cement company came in and started using his property in Ixtapa as a storage lot. He told them to get out---nothin doin. He couldn't just show his title to a cop and have them kick them out, he had to hire a lawyer( $800 US)to talk the judge into giving a ruling to the cement company to vacate.

BajaBlanca - 12-4-2013 at 01:05 PM

This is indeed a tough country to own property in.

aguachico - 12-4-2013 at 01:06 PM

I thought Tiger Woods was building a golf course there?

DENNIS - 12-4-2013 at 01:17 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Mexitron
Is this the guy that took back the gringo properties on the estero years ago?




Same ejido. Yes. Don't know who the principals are, as yet.

DENNIS - 12-4-2013 at 01:25 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by aguachico
I thought Tiger Woods was building a golf course there?


Ancient history. Different location, but close.

monoloco - 12-4-2013 at 01:42 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Mexitron
Is this the guy that took back the gringo properties on the estero years ago?

Property is a strange beast in Mexico, at least from what I know. My worker said a cement company came in and started using his property in Ixtapa as a storage lot. He told them to get out---nothin doin. He couldn't just show his title to a cop and have them kick them out, he had to hire a lawyer( $800 US)to talk the judge into giving a ruling to the cement company to vacate.
He was lucky, once someone takes possession of your property, legally or illegally, it usually takes at least 10 years to wind it's way through the Mexican judicial process, (or lack thereof).

Punta Brava

greengoes - 12-4-2013 at 01:45 PM

......... but so far it is starting to look like the Donald Trump Project to me. -

http://thebajaexperience.com/TigerWoods.html

Tom Kennedy - Anyone know this gentleman who created the Baja Experience webpage?


As for the issues at La Bufadora, maybe this is part of Nieto's land reform.

:?::?:

Bajafun777 - 12-4-2013 at 02:15 PM

Better to lease or rent instead of worrying about drama like this happening again and again. I know a guy that lost his property to this Ejido he was a school superintendent here in the Valley. He claims he did it all by the numbers and had his property he built stolen from him and will never buy or go into Mexico again. He now owns a condo by the ocean in San Diego and claims will never do any kind of business in Mexico! When you have a home or land taken away from you it tends to make you bitter. LOL.

Too much FUN to worry about if owning property is worth it. Just rent your American property and lease in Mexico, simple & ease choice if you want full time in Mexico. You don't have to worry about taxes on property, if something breaks, etc. etc. it is the owners responsibility. If not you keep your property in the States and just lease 5 or 6 months to stay within visa time in Mexico. Take Care & Travel Safe--- "No Hurry, No Worry, Just FUN" bajafun777

DENNIS - 12-4-2013 at 02:17 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by greengoes
Tom Kennedy - Anyone know this gentleman who created the Baja Experience webpage?


He's an unknown out here.
Quote:

As for the issues at La Bufadora, maybe this is part of Nieto's land reform.

:?::?:


As far from it as it could get.
This is just another example of ejido predators wrapped up in a constitution written before "greedy lawyer" became a college curriculum.
"Find the uncrossed 'T' or the undotted 'I' in a contract and have it nullified."



.

[Edited on 12-4-2013 by DENNIS]

cessna821 - 12-4-2013 at 02:31 PM

This is just another example of how you have to keep the Ejido in the loop if you wish to buy in Baja.

It is necessary to have written confirmation as to the extent of the Ejido's interest in a specific piece of land and their intentions for its disposal. Ejido's are very democratic in their operations and officials get elected within a time frame, so it is important to have clear paperwork.

Bajafun777 - 12-4-2013 at 02:46 PM

The problem is even when you keep the Ejido in the loop they change when the people elected change according to the guy I talked about. I told him he should have been aware in the dealings with the Ejido and he said he was but things were changed by someone else years later from his purchase. So, that my friend is why in Baja with all the issues of Ejidos maybe my renting or leasing is a very good idea. LOL Take Care & Travel Safe----"No Hurry, No Worry, Just FUN" bajafun777

cessna821 - 12-4-2013 at 03:02 PM

The main problem with expats buying, or trying to buy in Baja seems to be that people bring the concepts of the country they are leaving with them.

There is no point whatsoever contacting an 'Estate Agent' or a 'House Owner' in Mexico.

First you locate a translator (an Expat will likely not have sufficient technical Spanish), then you contact the relevant Ejido general manager. Once you have ascertained all the details and you wish to proceed, you then go to the local notario along with the Mexican person who will hold the land for you until they have an escritura land transfer. The Mexican can then sell you the property via a fideicomiso.

It's not something that will happen overnight, but it's relatively straightforward.

[Edited on 12-4-2013 by cessna821]

absinvestor - 12-4-2013 at 03:18 PM

Cessna821- I rented a beach property in Punta Banda when those properties on the estero were lost in the mid 90's. Four of my neighbors who had done as you suggest had their " rent' tripled by the ejido. Two refused to pay it and were kicked out. I said than as I say now that I won't buy anything in Mexico that I can't afford to walk away from. An American suing a Mexican in Mexico has about the same chance as winning the powerball in the US.

Bajafun777 - 12-4-2013 at 03:24 PM

Nothing is really straight forward in buying land in Baja, especially if an Ejido is involved. This guy said he went through these steps, so being he had also been going into Mexico for many years he was no virgin to the processes. He told me he used a local notario who was used and recommended by many living in the area, so again it is Baja let the buyer beware. He was a Superintendent, so he knows how to read contracts, documents and was very capable of understanding all of the people he was dealing with at the time. Thus, what he learned was "Who gets what Judge and Government official to side with them last wins!"

It was a large house and he lost a lot of money on this take over. He did do something that was different in that he filed a claim against Mexico with NAFTA, as the United States & Mexico has an account setup for any individual or business that are affected by losses in doing business in either Country can make a claim of loss. I don't know if he got anything and maybe it was just a "Hail Mary" thing in hopes that someone would over see these real estate sales better. Take Care & Travel Safe-----"No Hurry, No Worry, Just FUN" bajafun777

cessna821 - 12-4-2013 at 03:36 PM

OK, Bajafun, everyone has their own opinions.

But if you look again at my second reply you will see how I, and several of my friends have bought our homes:
1st - Translator
2nd - Ejido manager
3rd - Notario
4th - Mexican national to obtain Escritura
5th - Fideicomiso

It really is straightforward, it just takes time - in my case a little over two years, but it took less for one of my friends.

Bajafun777 - 12-4-2013 at 04:15 PM

OK, Cessna821 glad to hear yours worked out and hope it stays that way. It was several years after the guy had everything done that his misery started but hey its always an adventure.

The good thing is that people like me will rent or lease from those that need to get income from their homes in Mexico or cannot live in Mexico for whatever reasons any longer. It's all good for me and again I do not need the drama so my pleasure is renting or leasing. I do this in Baja and Mainland Mexico just works for me. LOL Take Care & Travel Safe----"No Hurry, No Worry, Just FUN" bajafun777

DENNIS - 12-4-2013 at 04:21 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by cessna821
This is just another example of how you have to keep the Ejido in the loop if you wish to buy in Baja.

It is necessary to have written confirmation as to the extent of the Ejido's interest in a specific piece of land and their intentions for its disposal. Ejido's are very democratic in their operations and officials get elected within a time frame, so it is important to have clear paperwork.



Good advice. Your first sentence scared me to death, but you clarified that.

Personally, I have become so cynical about land sales out of a centro area, meaning, not rural, that I wouldn't suggest it for anybody.
Mexico may have protective laws, but they only protect whom the judge anoints....and that's usually who anoints him.

Sad...but true. Mexico has a long way to go before foreigners have assumed protections.

BajaNomad - 12-4-2013 at 04:26 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by greengoes

Punta Brava

so far it is starting to look like the Donald Trump Project to me. -



fwiw...

This past month I was at a local Starbucks in San Diego - and at the table next to me was a gentleman wearing a Punta Brava shirt. When he got ready to leave, I inquired as to his connection with Punta Brava - and he told me he was the general partner. His name is Brian Tucker. I told Brian I hadn't seen anything lately in the news about what was going on with the project. His response led me to believe he's still actively engaged with the project (including the conversation he was having with someone else at the Starbucks) - but was not forthcoming on any further details at all.

http://www.10news.com/news/man-s-quest-to-build-tiger-woods-...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brian_Tucker_(executive)


fyi







[Edited on 12-4-2013 by BajaNomad]

DENNIS - 12-4-2013 at 04:28 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by absinvestor
An American suing a Mexican in Mexico has about the same chance as winning the powerball in the US.


Small correction, if I may:
An American suing a national, who has money and connections, in Mexico, will spend a bundle before losing it all......not to mention the forever time lost in the process.

This all is beginning to state a case for leased land and mobile homes.

DENNIS - 12-4-2013 at 04:39 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by BajaNomad
fwiw...

This past month I was at a local Starbucks in San Diego - and at the table next to me was a gentleman wearing a Punta Brava shirt. When he got ready to leave, I inquired as to his connection with Punta Brava - and he told me he was the general partner. His name is Brian Tucker. I told Brian I hadn't seen anything lately in the news about what was going on with the project. His response led me to believe he's still actively engaged with the project (including the conversation he was having with someone else at the Starbucks) - but was not forthcoming on any further details at all.

ttp://www.10news.com/news/man-s-quest-to-build-tiger-woods-golf-course-continues

fyi


Small world. I know "of" Brian Tucker. He leased a large house near the Punta Brava project for the purpose of accommodating investors in the project,.... and a good friend of mine sub'd it from him to run a B+B.
The B+B failed for lack of a few things, and the house is reported as sold to someone not related to any of this.

Tucker is a salesman with nothing to sell and I've never even seen one of his vintage shirts, but, Doug, if you invest, I'll bet you'll get a few for the family. :biggrin:

cessna821 - 12-4-2013 at 05:01 PM

Most of the opinions passed on this topic reflect the views of expats or potential expats who wish to buy property near the coastline. Maybe it is relevant to mention how things are from a Mexican viewpoint. For all who know this stuff already, I apologise, so bear with me.

The concept of the Ejido was adopted in 1920 by Mexican President Alvaro Obregon, in the form of the “Ley de Ejidos” (Ejido Act). The government ceded land to local inhabitants, as a community, for use as farmland. Ejido land is not private property and cannot be bought and sold as if it were.

Around half of all Mexican real estate is classified as Ejido land. Granting of the land was initiated during a period when vast areas of Mexico were sparsely populated and there was no concept of individual land ownership. The new farming community, or “Ejido” could decide whether they wanted to hold all of the land publicly for the use of every member of the community as a collective; or it could decide whether they wanted to permanently distribute its use to individual members. This second decision did not give title, only permission to use the land.

Today, Ejidos still manage much of the collective ownership of land in Mexico and are administered by a ejido commissioner, generally elected by a voting assembly, and in most cases, a general manager is appointed to run things on a day to day basis.

Since the constitutional reforms of 1992 Ejido land can be converted into private property and sold to third parties. However, a foreigner can not buy Ejido land; it can only be sold to Mexican nationals. A Mexican wishing to purchase Ejido land must go through a privatization process that transfers the property to them by means of an escritura (a fee simple title). Until an Ejido parcel has been surveyed and transferred to private ownership, foreigners cannot acquire “ownership” of Ejido land in accordance with their understanding of the word “ownership”.

Once the property has been privatized, it can then be sold to a foreigner through a Fideicomiso, which is usually a bank trust.

Since Ejido land is much less expensive than regular land, many foreigners have elected to take the risk and attempt to buy Ejido property. This is done through a 'contract' to buy the buildings on the land and renting the land from a 'landlord'. This is fraught with danger and totally dependent on the (Mexican) landlord having clear title. However, the housebuyer should be aware that they have absolutely no rights, until they are able to legally obtain a Fideicomiso.

This situation is expected to change if the Federal Government passes the bill which is on the agenda at the moment and is expected to be voted on early in 2014. However, any bill can have amendments tabled, so it is not clear as to exactly what the eventual procedures might be on its passing and if it would give expatriates secure title.

Many would not buy property without title insurance. This is an American concept dating from when the huge land purchases happened in the early to mid 1800's. There is no confusion about land ownership in Mexico - the Ejido's know exactly who owns it - they do, despite what anyone else says, be they lawyers, banks, estate agents or whatever.

So you must deal with the relevant Ejido first and foremost and have clear written agreements as to procedure. All of these dealings must be in Spanish with English translation by a qualified translator employed by you.

I did all of this and have lived happily in Baja for 14 years without any problems and without the draconian and frequently unforeseen fixed costs of other 'developed' countries. Utility prices are based on the Mexican economy and a state pension from outside of Mexico covers everything, leaving enough to have fun.

greengoes - 12-4-2013 at 05:22 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by DENNIS
Quote:
Originally posted by BajaNomad
fwiw...

This past month I was at a local Starbucks in San Diego - and at the table next to me was a gentleman wearing a Punta Brava shirt. When he got ready to leave, I inquired as to his connection with Punta Brava - and he told me he was the general partner. His name is Brian Tucker. I told Brian I hadn't seen anything lately in the news about what was going on with the project. His response led me to believe he's still actively engaged with the project (including the conversation he was having with someone else at the Starbucks) - but was not forthcoming on any further details at all.

ttp://www.10news.com/news/man-s-quest-to-build-tiger-woods-golf-course-continues

fyi


Small world. I know "of" Brian Tucker. He leased a large house near the Punta Brava project for the purpose of accommodating investors in the project,.... and a good friend of mine sub'd it from him to run a B+B.
The B+B failed for lack of a few things, and the house is reported as sold to someone not related to any of this.

Tucker is a salesman with nothing to sell and I've never even seen one of his vintage shirts, but, Doug, if you invest, I'll bet you'll get a few for the family. :biggrin:


I don't want to hijack the ejido aspect of the thread, maybe we should start a new one. Punta Brava has been an interest of mine for a while now so please bear with me.

That article about seeing Senor Tucker in a Starbucks (business meeting?) is almost three years old. The definitive "We will commence work Oct. 2011" is in it.

Now to look for the shirt on Ebay.:light:

David K - 12-4-2013 at 05:29 PM

Doug said it was in the past month (Nov.-Dec. 2013) he met the guy. The 10 News TV link is a 2011 story.

DENNIS - 12-4-2013 at 05:30 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by cessna821
Most of the opinions passed on this topic reflect the views of expats or potential expats who wish to buy property near the coastline. Maybe it is relevant to mention how things are from a Mexican viewpoint.



Good. Glad you came forth with enlightenment.
Now.....explain the Constanzia...the interim promise of fulfillment the ejidos like to use when things arn't cut 'n dried.....the "we'll take care of it later" clause.


By the way, are you a Mexican who knows Mexico law? You present yourself as such.

DENNIS - 12-4-2013 at 05:33 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by greengoes

That article about seeing Senor Tucker in a Starbucks (business meeting?) is almost three years old. The definitive "We will commence work Oct. 2011" is in it.




It was first posted here today. I first responded to it's existence today.
I don't research dead dogs.

David K - 12-4-2013 at 05:35 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by DENNIS
Quote:
Originally posted by cessna821
Most of the opinions passed on this topic reflect the views of expats or potential expats who wish to buy property near the coastline. Maybe it is relevant to mention how things are from a Mexican viewpoint.



Good. Glad you came forth with enlightenment.
Now.....explain the Constanzia...the interim promise of fulfillment the ejidos like to use when things arn't cut 'n dried.....the "we'll take care of it later" clause.


By the way, are you a Mexican who knows Mexico law? You present yourself as such.


Dennis, read the last paragraph, a wrap up that included this line: "I did all of this and have lived happily in Baja for 14 years"

Sounds like it worked for him/her?

Eureka......found one!!

greengoes - 12-4-2013 at 05:42 PM



Haz Clic Aqui to get yours now!

DENNIS - 12-4-2013 at 05:43 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by David K


Sounds like it worked for him/her?



Thanks, Big D........sometimes I get impetuous. :lol:

Anyway, success with ejidos isn't universal or guaranteed.

DENNIS - 12-4-2013 at 05:46 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by greengoes

Eureka......found one!!



Haz Clic Aqui to get yours now!



Toooo cooool. I'm on it. Thanks.

bajadock - 12-4-2013 at 05:55 PM

David K's link is my last recollection and most recent news I can find about Flagship Group LLC, Austin Texas. Same goes for Flagship jefes Brady Oman and Red McCombs.

http://multivu.prnewswire.com/mnr/flagship/35233/docs/35233-...
...is a generic marketing doc, no date attached.

http://www.linkedin.com/pub/susan-wise/4/ab0/20a
...shows Susan Wise as Marketing/PR head of Flagship group from 2008-2010. I corresponded with her via email during those years attempting to earn sponsorship for Golf4Ninos. I was unsuccessful, most likely due to my selling talent. But, was given the "we want to keep a low profile, while working through the environmental process."(Cannot quote directly, but, that was the essential spirit of my last communication with Ms. Wise.).

Perhaps a better interweb detective can scrounge better and more recent info on Flagship Group LLC, Austin Texas.

[Edited on 12-5-2013 by bajadock]

cessna821 - 12-4-2013 at 06:14 PM

Response to Dennis

I think I have heard of the Constanzia, but have not had experience of it.

I am not Mexican, I am an expat who loves living in the Baja.

The points I have covered in all my above replies were my own actual personal experiences, and never included comments or hearsay, verifiable or otherwise, from a third party.

I don't present myself as knowing Mexican law, only the few relevant bits that I know about for certain.

The five points I raised earlier are the only way to buy property at the present time and I figured potential purchasers might find them helpful.

David K - 12-4-2013 at 06:14 PM

My link? Nope, not me... sorry!

chuckie - 12-4-2013 at 06:15 PM

Anyone who buys property in Mexico is a fool..........

bajadock - 12-4-2013 at 06:22 PM

I want one of those Punta Brava shirts. Will need a few hundred cases of Pacificos to fill in the XL.

DENNIS - 12-4-2013 at 08:33 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by bajadock
I want one of those Punta Brava shirts. Will need a few hundred cases of Pacificos to fill in the XL.



Better hustle it up, Doc. Mine's in the correo. :biggrin:

DENNIS - 12-4-2013 at 08:47 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by chuckie
Anyone who buys property in Mexico is a fool..........



Chuckie Chuckie Chuckie..............
Thank you so much for your inseam........uh.....insight. You are a Baja Gooroo, fer certain. :biggrin:

DocRey - 12-4-2013 at 10:03 PM

...call me "fool"...:P

Geeze, then, why buy?

neilm81301 - 12-5-2013 at 02:29 PM

Quote:
Quote:
I think I'll just move down & squat - Hell, I'll be dead in 10 years, anyway!

Neil


He was lucky, once someone takes possession of your property, legally or illegally, it usually takes at least 10 years to wind it's way through the Mexican judicial process, (or lack thereof).

chuckie - 12-5-2013 at 03:15 PM

I owned a home in Baja...I now lease one..Sic caveat emptor

BajaNomad - 12-5-2013 at 04:53 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by David K
Doug said it was in the past month (Nov.-Dec. 2013) he met the guy. The 10 News TV link is a 2011 story.


Correct, mid-November, 2013.

DENNIS - 12-10-2013 at 12:26 PM

It's said that the final verdict comes out Monday. It's also being said that if the final verdict favors anyone other than the ejido, there may be blood in the dirt.


Thees eeeees geettin' good.

Osprey - 12-10-2013 at 01:59 PM

honie sui que mal y pense or (close enough) "Evil to those who evil think". How about "Those who buy property in Mexico and screw that up royally so they have to lose it, quit and get bitter about it, are fools."

DENNIS - 12-10-2013 at 02:04 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Osprey
honie sui que mal y pense or (close enough)


Have you been taking those internet "Cryptography" lessons, Jorge?

Jes' kiddin, mi amigo. :lol:

"El mal de los que piensan mal"



.

[Edited on 12-10-2013 by DENNIS]

Osprey - 12-10-2013 at 03:21 PM

I use the Skeet/Cptk "You betcha Stone" tapes.

DENNIS - 12-10-2013 at 04:33 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Osprey
I use the Skeet/Cptk "You betcha Stone" tapes.



I had those. I gave them to the border control folks to round out their world view.
Nice talking to you, as always. :biggrin: