BajaNomad - Want to buy inverter

Want to buy inverter

brewer - 12-4-2013 at 11:33 PM

Looking for a good used inverter. Something like a Trace 40/24. Thought I'd put it out there. Thanks.

Bob and Susan - 12-5-2013 at 06:47 AM

I've had 2 of three fail...
they no longer make them...no support

outback is the unit to look at now
1/4 the size and weight

go 12v
batteries fail and if you get a bad one you lose more batteries
they are all the same inside now...electrical

monoloco - 12-5-2013 at 07:21 AM

I know someone on the east cape who has 2 xantrex 4024 inverters with disconnect box for sale for $2500. He had them bridged for 4000 watts @ 220v. I don't know if he would separate them. They are in good shape, he's moving to a larger 48v system. u2u me if you are interested.

[Edited on 12-5-2013 by monoloco]

mtnpop - 12-5-2013 at 08:29 AM

Bob,
Your last comment, are you saying to use 12v or are you actually saying no 12v due to the battery problem.??
just trying to work on a new system to use at Chivato..
and am looking at mostly 12v lightrs, etc...
thanks.

Quote:

Originally posted by Bob and Susan
I've had 2 of three fail...
they no longer make them...no support

outback is the unit to look at now
1/4 the size and weight

go 12v
batteries fail and if you get a bad one you lose more batteries
they are all the same inside now...electrical

monoloco - 12-5-2013 at 08:35 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by mtnpop
Bob,
Your last comment, are you saying to use 12v or are you actually saying no 12v due to the battery problem.??
just trying to work on a new system to use at Chivato..
and am looking at mostly 12v lightrs, etc...
thanks.

Quote:

I would recommend at least 24 volts for a whole house system and design the system to use one string of batteries instead of parallel strings.

Bob and Susan - 12-5-2013 at 12:33 PM

old thinking...
a 24 v system is what "old people" told me too...
they were WRONG

inside the inverter its all the same
the conversions are done with circuit boards...not windings

go 12v...use BIG wires to connect the batteries (not car or truck size)
when I say BIG wires they should be 4 times the thickness of a car battery

Use BIG wires from the batteries to the inverter too
keep the inverter close to the batteries

batteries stink...charge controlers and inverters make noise
keep them all in the garage and you'll sleep better

cells in batteries die...that's just a fact

in a 48v system if you lose 1-12v battery you actually lose 4
in a 12v system if you lose 1-12v battery you actually lose 1
if you use 6v batteries double that

the ONLY time to think about voltage is from the batteries to the inverter
that distance is short...you never need 48v or 24v...
12v is fine

once you invert the energy to 120v...the electricty can go a long distance

run #2 stranded wire from the roof at 72v and let the controller reduce the voltage to the batteries (outback is the best controller right now)
when it gets hot outside resistance builds in the wire from the solar panels and they loose power that's why the higher voltage from the roof

never buy an old system...unless its a backup
remember you are making your own electricty and yo will depend on it

when it goes out...it sure as hell will be dark outside

Wireing circa del mar

captkw - 12-5-2013 at 01:36 PM

Beside BIG wire if you use Anchor brand wire and connectors and "Blue Sea " Swiches,, Fuses,, buss strips and posts...your be Waaay ahead in the long run !! for a proinstall that will do its job that you want....My large cable crimpers is two feet long and looks and works like a bolt cutter....hard to find tooll$$$ PS.. besides forementioned problems I see in Baja installs is lack of good ventaletion ...only gell cell batts don't gas !!

[Edited on 12-5-2013 by captkw]

[Edited on 12-5-2013 by captkw]

[Edited on 12-5-2013 by captkw]

monoloco - 12-5-2013 at 02:02 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Bob and Susan
old thinking...
a 24 v system is what "old people" told me too...
they were WRONG

inside the inverter its all the same
the conversions are done with circuit boards...not windings

go 12v...use BIG wires to connect the batteries (not car or truck size)
when I say BIG wires they should be 4 times the thickness of a car battery

Use BIG wires from the batteries to the inverter too
keep the inverter close to the batteries

batteries stink...charge controlers and inverters make noise
keep them all in the garage and you'll sleep better

cells in batteries die...that's just a fact

in a 48v system if you lose 1-12v battery you actually lose 4
in a 12v system if you lose 1-12v battery you actually lose 1
if you use 6v batteries double that

the ONLY time to think about voltage is from the batteries to the inverter
that distance is short...you never need 48v or 24v...
12v is fine

once you invert the energy to 120v...the electricty can go a long distance

run #2 stranded wire from the roof at 72v and let the controller reduce the voltage to the batteries (outback is the best controller right now)
when it gets hot outside resistance builds in the wire from the solar panels and they loose power that's why the higher voltage from the roof

never buy an old system...unless its a backup
remember you are making your own electricty and yo will depend on it

when it goes out...it sure as hell will be dark outside

The optimum system will never have over one string of batteries, parallel strings of batteries are always a bad idea. Ideally, you should match the batteries to the system to have all of them in series, for example, in a 24 volt system you would have 2-12volt batteries, 4-6volt batteries, or 8-2volt batteries. The resistance in the parallel strings is the major cause of battery failures because the batteries will never all get equal charging.

Exactly !!

captkw - 12-5-2013 at 02:22 PM

damn guy fishes and electrical !! (monoloco) BTW the fastest way to kill a batt is undercharged...allows the plates to "sulfate" PPS..To be crystal clear :: batts in series will never charge correctly and can discharge to the weaker (bad battery) most unit's that I work with are for Three (3) battery banks...very important to use all the same batterys and deep clycle is not to only way to go in some apps !!!

[Edited on 12-5-2013 by captkw]

brewer - 12-5-2013 at 10:27 PM

Quote:

So are saying to avoid the older Trace 40/24? And go with the Outback inverter for about $1900.00? Big bucks man. What is everyones opinion on that?

Maybe LarryC will chime in. Thanks all.

well !!

captkw - 12-5-2013 at 10:54 PM

ITs Late for me..But this is what I DO for a living....I can you help you....But,,,you need to get BOB with a "el FARO" permission.......LOL,,,,LOL :lol:

well !!

captkw - 12-5-2013 at 10:54 PM

ITs Late for me..But this is what I DO for a living....I can you help you....But,,,you need to get BOB with a "el FARO" permission.......LOL,,,,LOL :lol:

brewer - 12-5-2013 at 11:00 PM

What's with the double posting again?...LOL. Just joking. But what do have to offer?

Bob and Susan - 12-6-2013 at 05:12 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by captkw
ITs Late for me..But this is what I DO for a living....I can you help you....But,,,you need to get BOB with a "el FARO" permission.......LOL,,,,LOL :lol:

if THIS is what you do for a living...

give us your business name and address and...

i'll PAY you to repair two 4024 trace inverters I have here

and i'm not afraid to travel

pretty simple...

monoloco - 12-6-2013 at 07:10 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by brewer

Quote:

So are saying to avoid the older Trace 40/24? And go with the Outback inverter for about $1900.00? Big bucks man. What is everyones opinion on that?

Maybe LarryC will chime in. Thanks all.

I have no experience with Trace, but my Outback inverter has been running continuously for over 3 years with no problems. I believe that Trace/Xantrex and Outback are similarly priced, if it was me, I'd get the Outback because of their field repairability and stellar technical support.

larryC - 12-6-2013 at 08:27 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by monoloco

Quote:

Originally posted by brewer

Quote:

So are saying to avoid the older Trace 40/24? And go with the Outback inverter for about $1900.00? Big bucks man. What is everyones opinion on that?

Maybe LarryC will chime in. Thanks all.

I haven't chimed in before 'cause this subject is like talking to a wall. I agree with monoloco on this subject. I have a 12v system but if I had it to do over again I'd go at least 24v and probably 48v. I have had my Outback inverters for 9 years now and have not had one problem. The master inverter has not been turned off for over 5 years except for routine battery maintenance. I think Captkw misspoke when he said batteries in series will not charge properly, batteries in series will charge properly and batteries in parallel will not charge as well and some will get undercharged and die prematurely.

Brewer,
If it was me I would go with the big bucks system. It all depends on what is important to you. If power is important then do it right. The old Trace 4024 is an old workhorse inverter, but as Bob knows there are no parts and very little support for those inverters so when it breaks it stays broke. Outback is hard to beat as far as customer service goes, and it comes with ( I think) a 2 year warranty which for an extra fee you can extend to 5 years. I don't think it is necessary though because their products are so reliable. I have seen the Outback inverters sell for $1600, then you need the mate so you can program the inverter and that is another $250. Then you might as well get their charge controller and a hub so all the parts can talk to each other. So by the time you are done you are looking at $2700 bucks plus batteries, solar panels and stuff to hook everything together. $4000 or more after all is said and done but you will have a system that will last for many years of trouble free service and run an elec refer, all your power tools, TV's and internet. Let the arguments begin.
Larry

LancairDriver - 12-6-2013 at 09:57 AM

Here is some good information on battery systems.

http://www.marxrv.com/12volt/12volt.htm

wessongroup - 12-6-2013 at 10:04 AM

Thanks Larry .... some great information in "bullet" fashion and "some" system

brewer - 12-6-2013 at 11:23 AM

Well I already have an Outback controller and batteries and panels. I am borrowing a Trace inverter. With LarryC's info, I'd be better off just going with the Outback inverter.

Better do it soon before the Trace quits working on me!

Thanks for the info.

Now, anyone have an Outback inverter for sale?

wessongroup - 12-6-2013 at 11:46 AM

:lol:

The Engineer !!

captkw - 12-6-2013 at 01:20 PM

Their was this engineer that was putting sea water in his BATTERIES without the boss knowing it. he was arrested for SALT-IN-BATTERY, but the CHARGE wouldn't HOLD.. he is sitting in his CELL serving two CURRENT sentences........there is so many varibles on this subject it e a few books to write...But I DO NOT use amp gauges with shunts in my designs and I prefer 12 volt (13.8) as its the easy to get parts and related gear..and dont forget isolator's with Zener diodes lose 1.0 volts from the charge (bad) I like COMPINERS and/or Blue Sea System's ACR'S f-ng work Great..you can also Series/parallel batteries.....Last night I stopped by my old house and there was a packge for me...A FLUKE 88..no s--t !! with a temp probe and rpm inductive pickup !!! K&T :cool:

Xmas early !!

Bob and Susan - 12-6-2013 at 01:33 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by brewer
Well I already have an Outback controller and batteries and panels. I am borrowing a Trace inverter. With LarryC's info, I'd be better off just going with the Outback inverter.

Better do it soon before the Trace quits working on me!

Thanks for the info.

Now, anyone have an Outback inverter for sale?

if you already have the outback controller you really don't need a "mate"
the controller has all the programs to charge the batteries
and equalize them

now if you want the inverter to correctly charge the batteries when it cloudy then you need the mate
the charger in the outback is really good and powerful

Bob and Susan - 12-6-2013 at 01:37 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by captkw
Their was this engineer that was putting sea water in his BATTERIES without the boss knowing it. he was arrested for SALT-IN-BATTERY, but the CHARGE wouldn't HOLD.. he is sitting in his CELL serving two CURRENT sentences........there is so many varibles on this subject it e a few books to write...But I DO NOT use amp gauges with shunts in my designs and I prefer 12 volt (13.8) as its the easy to get parts and related gear..and dont forget isolator's with Zener diodes lose 1.0 volts from the charge (bad) I like COMPINERS and/or Blue Sea System's ACR'S f-ng work Great..you can also Series/parallel batteries.....Last night I stopped by my old house and there was a packge for me...A FLUKE 88..no s--t !! with a temp probe and rpm inductive pickup !!! K&T :cool:

Xmas early !!

i'm sure this is interesting to someone but what does ithave to do with replacing an inverter in a solar house?

brewer - 12-6-2013 at 03:45 PM

Quote:

I have AGM's. I thought you don't equalize those? I do want the charger to properly charge the batteries when it's cloudy. I'm in BCN.

Just a question, how does the inverter charge the batteries? I thought it just inverted the power. I'm new to this and really want to understand it.

Thanks.

monoloco - 12-6-2013 at 03:50 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by brewer
if you already have the outback controller you really don't need a "mate"
the controller has all the programs to charge the batteries
and equalize them

now if you want the inverter to correctly charge the batteries when it cloudy then you need the mate
the charger in the outback is really good and powerful

The inverter has an AC charger for charging with a generator. You need the mate so everything will play nice together.

LancairDriver - 12-6-2013 at 03:58 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by LancairDriver
Here is some good information on battery systems.

http://www.marxrv.com/12volt/12volt.htm

Brewer- Really, check out this link. It virtually covers everything you need to know about DC power and inverters. There is probably even more information than you can get from CaptKW. :lol:

brewer - 12-6-2013 at 05:58 PM

That was helpful. Thanks a lot.

[Edited on 12-7-2013 by brewer]

Give me a FRiking Break !!

captkw - 12-7-2013 at 12:42 AM

Laincardriver--- As a Fuel injection and Electrical specialist that works on boats/yachts the LINK you gave is childs play !!I could have wrote that 30 years ago......When the Coast Guard AUX PATROL is out looking for a vessel in a PAN_PAN..MAY DAY....SACURTY !! Call,,I'm the guy that makes it happen...I learned at the age of 20 something ALL Guys think that they know how to fix stuff,,,and are mechanics..HA,,HA.......I NOW VOW NOT TO HELP ANYMORE ON THIS SITE !!! At 95 A hr and booked out I have better things to do.....BTW...ALL MY WORK IS DONE TO,,,,,ABYC,,NEMA,,CFR standards.....SO flock OFF!!

chuckie - 12-7-2013 at 02:44 AM

WOW! Thats a good thing....BYE BYE Dont let the door hit you in the burro...

Bob and Susan - 12-7-2013 at 07:23 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by captkw
Laincardriver--- As a Fuel injection and Electrical specialist that works on boats/yachts the LINK you gave is childs play !!I could have wrote that 30 years ago......When the Coast Guard AUX PATROL is out looking for a vessel in a PAN_PAN..MAY DAY....SACURTY !! Call,,I'm the guy that makes it happen...I learned at the age of 20 something ALL Guys think that they know how to fix stuff,,,and are mechanics..HA,,HA.......I NOW VOW NOT TO HELP ANYMORE ON THIS SITE !!! At 95 A hr and booked out I have better things to do.....BTW...ALL MY WORK IS DONE TO,,,,,ABYC,,NEMA,,CFR standards.....SO flock OFF!!

I guess now you wont fix my 2 failed trace 4024 inverters...damn

larryC - 12-7-2013 at 07:48 AM

Quote:

Kevin
The outback inverter/charger (and probably most other inverter/chargers) has an AC input. You attach your generator there and the AC output of the inverter goes to you elec service panel to your house. Now when you start your generator the inverter senses the power on its AC input and once it determines that the power meets the volt and cycle specs it will let that power from the generator pass through to your elec panel and power your house. It also uses some of that generator power and charges the batteries. The inverter is programmable and you tell it how much power to pass through and how much to use to charge your batteries. That way you don't use more power than your generator can produce. No external transfer switches are necessary, this all happens automatically when you start the generator. When the gen is shut off the inverter automatically switches back to inverter mode.
Hope this helps
Larry

Bob and Susan - 12-7-2013 at 08:52 AM

larry c has a great system...I like it...good job

but if you use agm batteries why 2v

I understand wet batteries are better if there is more room between the plates
thus 6v versus 12v
but agm are sealed aren't they
so why would you use 2v and not BIG 12v
as the voltage drops the larger cables you need
you MUST have HUGE cables

and if you lose one cell in any of the 6 batteries your system is down

I agree wth the small diesel generator as long as
it spins at 1800rpm and not 3600 like the smaller ones
you probably get great "gas mileage"

for a home generator to work correctly for a long time
you cant use more than half its rated power
...too bad for me...its a little too small

wessongroup - 12-7-2013 at 08:58 AM

"FLUKE 88" ... now that is a nice present ... anytime ... great tool

Bob and Susan - 12-7-2013 at 09:10 AM

I got the china knock off at harbor freight...
...on sale for 2 bucks :lol:

this is all an off grid homeowner needs :light:

brewer - 12-7-2013 at 09:24 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Bob and Susan
larry c has a great system...I like it...good job

but if you use agm batteries why 2v

I understand wet batteries are better if there is more room between the plates
thus 6v versus 12v
but agm are sealed aren't they
so why would you use 2v and not BIG 12v
as the voltage drops the larger cables you need
you MUST have HUGE cables

and if you lose one cell in any of the 6 batteries your system is down

I agree wth the small diesel generator as long as
it spins at 1800rpm and not 3600 like the smaller ones
you probably get great "gas mileage"

for a home generator to work correctly for a long time
you cant use more than half its rated power
...too bad for me...its a little too small

Where did 2V come from? I'm running it 12V. So I guess I need the mate to program the inverter for generator use. Right?

Hola, Brewer

captkw - 12-7-2013 at 09:41 AM

over the years, I have found "tech support" guys from that make/sell a product to be Very helpful.....You might lookup outback's phone number and get advice from "the horses mouth" Rather easy......

larryC - 12-7-2013 at 09:54 AM

Bob
I get my batteries from a company that changes out battery systems for large industrial complexes. They had these large 2v batteries that were never installed, had some shipping damage, and were only one year old. I got them for $200 each, so $1200 for the bank. Each battery retails for well over $1000 each. I use 2v batteries because I don't want to have any parallel strings. I also have observed that most large companies that set up back-up battery systems use 2v batteries in series with no parallel strings. No need for me to reinvent the wheel.
I have 2 inverters, so from my battery bank to the inverters I use 4/0 cable to each inverter through 2 250 amp circuit breakers.
I don't understand your statement "I understand wet batteries are better if there is more room between the plates
thus 6v versus 12v"
I didn't use a 12v battery because I didn't find one large enough. My 2v batteries are 320# each, a 12v battery equal to my 2v's in amp hour capacity would weigh almost 2000# and be impossible for me to move around. Using more than one 12v battery would be a parallel bank and I don't want that.
I haven't had a problem with losing batteries in a series string, these large industrial batteries are reliable.
Some day I would love to stop by and see your system, I understand you run a resort off grid, no easy task.
Larry

wessongroup - 12-7-2013 at 09:57 AM

Great stuff ... thanks

"4/0 cable" ... we're talking copper

would love to "see" pictures ... of some of the setup's

[Edited on 12-7-2013 by wessongroup]

monoloco - 12-7-2013 at 03:07 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by larryC
Bob
I get my batteries from a company that changes out battery systems for large industrial complexes. They had these large 2v batteries that were never installed, had some shipping damage, and were only one year old. I got them for $200 each, so $1200 for the bank. Each battery retails for well over $1000 each. I use 2v batteries because I don't want to have any parallel strings. I also have observed that most large companies that set up back-up battery systems use 2v batteries in series with no parallel strings. No need for me to reinvent the wheel.
I have 2 inverters, so from my battery bank to the inverters I use 4/0 cable to each inverter through 2 250 amp circuit breakers.
I don't understand your statement "I understand wet batteries are better if there is more room between the plates
thus 6v versus 12v"
I didn't use a 12v battery because I didn't find one large enough. My 2v batteries are 320# each, a 12v battery equal to my 2v's in amp hour capacity would weigh almost 2000# and be impossible for me to move around. Using more than one 12v battery would be a parallel bank and I don't want that.
I haven't had a problem with losing batteries in a series string, these large industrial batteries are reliable.
Some day I would love to stop by and see your system, I understand you run a resort off grid, no easy task.
Larry

Listen to this advice if you want your batteries to last.