BajaNomad

Today's Photo - "A Horse, of Course.."

Pompano - 2-22-2014 at 10:24 AM

Note: No more 'Oats & Honey' cereal on elk hunts.



[Edited on 2-23-2014 by Pompano]

Cypress - 2-22-2014 at 01:43 PM

That looks familiar!:biggrin:

Pompano - 2-22-2014 at 01:52 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Cypress
That looks familiar!:biggrin:


Really? Sorry about that...nothing like a well-trained horse. ;D

Some being better than others.



[Edited on 2-22-2014 by Pompano]

Cliffy - 3-7-2014 at 04:55 PM

I notice all the "luxury" in camp?

You ever thought of taking a real safari to Namibia or South Africa?

You get a hot shower every day, your laundry done and ironed every day, sleep on a real queen sized bed, 3 hots a day done by a real chef and all the hunting you would ever want for 5 different animals in a week for less than a Canadian sheep hunt eating cold beans while sitting on a log in a snow storm:-)

U2U me if you need info :-) I gave up that hard stuff a long time ago!

chuckie - 3-7-2014 at 05:14 PM

Botswana is my favorite....

Cliffy - 3-7-2014 at 06:14 PM

They just closed most of Botswana to safaris.

bajabuddha - 3-7-2014 at 07:00 PM

Gawd-a-mighty... jest lookit them harse's arses!!

Cardon - 3-7-2014 at 07:10 PM

I took this photo a few years ago- a real Cowboy Limousine.



chuckie - 3-7-2014 at 07:12 PM

Really old pictures...RE Bottswana ? Who cares? Did it already...

"Just Horsing Around"

Pompano - 3-7-2014 at 07:51 PM


"Up in Smoke"





"Foggy Bottom Boys"




[Edited on 3-8-2014 by Pompano]

[Edited on 3-10-2014 by Pompano]

Pompano - 3-7-2014 at 08:00 PM

Horses are not for everywhere.




Still Horsing Around...

Pompano - 3-8-2014 at 10:31 AM

"They think they can make fuel from horse manure - now, I don't know if your car will be able to get 30 miles to the gallon, but it's sure gonna put a stop to siphoning."

-Billie Holiday



A pleasant way to see Victoria, B.C., Canada (The carriage horse was named...'Rose'.)










[Edited on 3-10-2014 by Pompano]

Cliffy - 3-8-2014 at 04:16 PM

Victoria is nice Had High Tea at the Empress Hotel!

Zapotec - 3-8-2014 at 05:56 PM

Adore horses. Thank you for all the beautiful pictures.

Pompano - 3-8-2014 at 06:04 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Zapotec
Adore horses. Thank you for all the beautiful pictures.


Thanks Zapotec, (interesting forum name ...with some history)

I like them, too...so stay tuned to more here.

Pompano - 3-9-2014 at 12:28 PM

Southwestern Colorado...Durango -Silverton. A good biking experience was competing in the Iron Horse Race. I took this photo of the 'Iron Horse' just as Co-pilot pulled her car in front of me....opps...but I got the impressive smoke that I wanted. Great fun place and event with about 3500 bikers in 2011.


Chief Crazy Horse - South Dakota Black Hills

Pompano - 3-10-2014 at 10:24 AM

Ta-sunko-witko - Sioux chief of the Oglala tribe who was an able tactician and determined warrior in the Sioux resistance to the white man’s invasion of the northern Great Plains.

This is an impressive monument to a brave Oglala Souix warrior chief. It is an ongoing project and is located in the same area as the Mt. Rushmore statues.

In 1939, his tribe asked an artist to make a statue of Crazy Horse. The Indians wanted a huge statue cut into the side of a mountain. It would show Crazy Horse riding a running horse, pointing his arm to where the Earth meets the sky -- to the lands of the Lakota people. The tribe told the artist: "We would like the white man to know the red man had great heroes, too."


SHETLANDS

Pompano - 3-12-2014 at 12:15 PM

Always a favorite in many ways, these Shetland Ponies in mid-photo are my grandchildren's delight. Any farmer or rancher with children will know why. (From the experience of my own childhood, Shetlands beat sheep or calves for riding any day!) Very trainable and a great disposition.




They have their own unique history, which I very much like. The small Shetland ponies have existed in the northern Shetland Isles of Great Britain for over 2000 years and probably much longer. Various excavations on the islands have revealed the bones of small ponies that existed during the Bronze Age and it is thought that ponies have been in domestic use there since this time. Their small size was a matter of adaption to the climate and forage...tenacious survivors.





Various stories about the ponies strength are legendary - for their size they are the strongest of all the horse breeds. For centuries the pony cultivated the land, carried the peat from the scatholds and seaweed for the fields, (see photo) and was used to transport his owner. The pony was never a draught animal until the mid 19th century as there were no proper roads until then. Of particular interest to me is the fact that the horse owning fisherman was able to use hair from the ponies tails for his lines.




When British law in 1847 finally banned children from entering the coal mines, the Shetland pony colts became in great demand and many had to exchange the freedom of the hills for the darkness of the mines. In fact their docile and willing nature enabled them to adapt very well to their underground environment and they were treated with much affection by their handlers and every so often they were returned to above ground for a period of time. At this time several studs were formed in an attempt to improve the stock by the use of the best stallions available that would breed ponies with the bone and substance necessary for the pit trade.

The breed also attracted much interest for children to ride and for driving and many people including Queen Victoria owned several pairs of Shetlands for drawing their smart phaetons. In the last twenty years of the nineteenth century thousands of ponies left the islands, reports of over one thousand a year, and many were exported across the Atlantic.

And so that's how this unique breed of small horse became popular throughout America and the world.

wessongroup - 3-12-2014 at 12:31 PM

Thanks for sharing ... Great stuff :):)

Pompano - 3-12-2014 at 05:16 PM

I don't know if many will remember Pierre, a French Algerian by way of Toronto, Canada, who came to Mulege to rent and run the Casablanca Bar in the old Hotel Hacienda. Quite a character here for a few seasons. Loved horses and women, not necessarily in that order...

Here's Pierre and his riding companion along the Mulege river.
Sure miss those old characters...they gave the place character. :rolleyes:



And here's the last of these boring horse pics. A set of statues made to commemorate the Souix pony warriors who ruled the Plains until the white man broke enough treaties to annihilate them. Prairie Knights.



Okay, horse show is over. (Thank God, eh?) ;)

[Edited on 3-13-2014 by Pompano]

LancairDriver - 3-12-2014 at 08:40 PM

Great pictures and history Pompano. I just finished reading General George Custers, "My life on the Plains". Lots of interesting information on the Indian Ponys and he gives the Indians credit as having been the best horsemen in the world. Do you have any information on the history of these Indian horses? There must be some left around those parts.

Zapotec - 3-12-2014 at 09:45 PM

Finally had some free time to sit and enjoy this horse show..just beautiful. I Lived in Durango, Colorado for a few months, and enjoyed the beautiful horses in that area. Had to move, Durango was too cold for my liking.

Skipjack Joe - 3-13-2014 at 07:34 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Pompano

Okay, horse show is over. (Thank God, eh?) ;)



No, I liked your expose on horses and appreciate your contributions and efforts here.

About a year ago I saw a program on PBS titled "The Art of War" or some such thing. They made the point that horses defined war for about 2000 years of man's history. Up until WWI they claimed that horses were the main instrument of war (I don't believe the Romans used them). That's pretty impressive for a barnyard animal.

PS if Custer had seen Mongolia he would have better understood who the best horsemen were (and still are) on this planet.

LancairDriver - 3-13-2014 at 12:01 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Skipjack Joe
Quote:
Originally posted by Pompano

Okay, horse show is over. (Thank God, eh?) ;)



No, I liked your expose on horses and appreciate your contributions and efforts here.

About a year ago I saw a program on PBS titled "The Art of War" or some such thing. They made the point that horses defined war for about 2000 years of man's history. Up until WWI they claimed that horses were the main instrument of war (I don't believe the Romans used them). That's pretty impressive for a barnyard animal.

PS if Custer had seen Mongolia he would have better understood who the best horsemen were (and still are) on this planet.


Horses have been used in warfare throughout history up to and including the ongoing Afghan war. A read of Custers book "My life on the Plains" reinforces the essential role of the horse on both sides during the latter half of the nineteenth century.
I'm sure Custer was well aware of the Mongolians horsemanship as history of warfare involving horses was an important part of the Army's Westpoint curriculum during the period he was there. He had a firsthand look at the capabilities of the Indians and formed his firsthand opinion on that experience. Our opinions are confined to what the various history books tell us. The Indians were introduced to horses much later than the Mongolians but they progressed in the care and taming of the horse very rapidly. Unlike the Mongolians, they more than held their own under fire from modern weapons, which the Mongolians didn't have to face.

Skipjack Joe - 3-13-2014 at 11:03 PM

Well, I guess I have to stand up for the Mongolians on this one.

Unlike Native Americans Mongolians actually won battles. In fact they sacked China several times. That's a 5000 year old civilization. The european knights with all of their armor and castles could not stand up to Mongols with primitive weapons on horseback. They held virtually all of asia from the pacific to Poland for hundreds of years. Historically speaking they had one of the greatest empires on this planet ... primarily due to their horsemanship.

I'm no expert on Mongolia but from what I know their lives are totally integrated with horses. They ride them, they eat them, they clothe themselves with them, they heat their homes with their dung. It's like a symbiotic relationship. Their culture is centered around the horse. Their people move with their horses to provide optimal grazing lands.

And why are we quoting Custer anyway? The man was a vainglorious loser. He was dead last in his class at West Point as I recall. He had a history of serious blunders in the army that resulted in demotions. His men didn't trust him. He was basically a prima donna who rose through the ranks due to his reckless courage. Poor judgement and recklessness - a bad combination that doomed his men at the Little Big Horn.

Pompano - 3-14-2014 at 08:03 AM

Hey, good to see some further interest in horses, plus how they affected mankind's advancement.

Got to run to get a new muffler installed on my deafening diesel (so Co-pilot says), but will return to post some more on this subject later.

In going, here's some Gen. George Armstrong Custer info:

In the 70's we had a governor with a good sense of humor. He had this tourism billboard erected on I-94 at the border of ND and Montana.

It read:

"Thinking of Leaving North Dakota? Custer Did."

Skipjack Joe - 3-14-2014 at 09:16 AM

What I've admire most about Custer was his hair. I've even secretly tried to grow mine that way. But the Sioux took care of that. At the end you could say he was prematurely bald without having male pattern baldness.

Pompano - 3-14-2014 at 04:07 PM

Glad to see some further interest in horses. After all, haven’t nomads been using them for centuries?


Quote:
Originally posted by LancairDriver

Horses have been used in warfare throughout history up to and including the ongoing Afghan war. A read of Custers book "My life on the Plains" reinforces the essential role of the horse on both sides during the latter half of the nineteenth century.
I'm sure Custer was well aware of the Mongolians horsemanship as history of warfare involving horses was an important part of the Army's Westpoint curriculum during the period he was there. He had a firsthand look at the capabilities of the Indians and formed his firsthand opinion on that experience. Our opinions are confined to what the various history books tell us. The Indians were introduced to horses much later than the Mongolians but they progressed in the care and taming of the horse very rapidly. Unlike the Mongolians, they more than held their own under fire from modern weapons, which the Mongolians didn't have to face.


Indeed, the American natives (Indians) did not learn horsemanship until after the Spanish had left horses behind in the 15th & 16th Centuries. Early in the exploration of the Americas (beginning with Columbus' voyage in 1493), Iberian horses arrived on Spanish galleons. Horse warfare in early colonization of the Americas was formidable. In 1532, 168 Spanish soldiers—including 62 on horseback—won the battle against 80,000 Inca foot soldiers by attacking the crowd on horseback and slicing through their quilted armor with steel weapons. Some of these horses escaped or were abandoned and became feral. Today's relatives of these escapees are the mustangs found in the western United States.

Wild Mustangs I photographed in Teddy Roosevelt Natl Park in ND. This park contains one of the largest concentrations of mustangs left running wild.




More typical mustangs..



So much has been written & sterotyped about the Spanish invasion, cowboys, & Indians that it is often forgotten that the Americas are the home of the modern, single-hoofed horse, ‘Equus’. Having evolved from the tiny, one-foot-tall and three-toed Hyracotherium some two million years ago, the modern horse migrated from North America to Asia over the Bering Strait land bridge. When the first humans crossed the strait in the opposite direction after about 20,000 B.C., they found the Great Plains teeming with horses, which for several millennia were among the many species of megafauna hunted by the first Plains peoples. Then, some 8,000 to 10,000 years ago, the horse followed the mammoth, camel, and other large American mammals into extinction, apparently as the victim of overhunting and a changing climate.


The horse that the Spanish brought to the Americas was the famed barb horse, a mix of Arab and Spanish stock. Bred to survive in the North African deserts, these small but sturdy animals found a fitting ecological niche in the dry, grass-covered Southern Plains.

Barb Horse



The impact of the horse was most dramatic on the Southern Plains, where a true equestrian culture emerged. Comanches, Kiowas, Arapahos, and Cheyennes, who became specialized horse raiders and herders, maintained large herds of surplus animals for trade with other Native groups and European Americans.



So attractive was this new horse culture that many groups–most notably Comanches, Lakotas, and Cheyennes–abandoned their traditional homelands for an equestrian existence in the Plains. In doing so, they became some of the most refined and celebrated equestrian societies in history, matched only by the great horse cultures of Asia. It is also possible that horses triggered a decline in women's status because the bison hunt became more the domain of the mounted male hunter rather than of the society at large. Little did these gals know that Women’s Lib was just around the corner…



The beginning of the reservation period after 1850 marked the end of the Plains horse cultures, but it did not end the association between Indians and horses. Rodeo has offered another important way to maintain the connection with horses and break some bones while having fun. On a more abstract level, most people still link Plains Indians and horses almost automatically, and the Hollywood film industry has sold the visual image of the mounted Plains warrior as the stereotype for all North American Indians. To many Indians the horse continues to symbolize their traditional cultures and lifeways as they existed before the European American takeover. From celebration parades and art to actual herds on reservation fields, horses are still integral to Plains Indians.


As said, the American natives adapted quickly to this new horse lifestyle and it changed their whole culture dramatically. Since travel is one of the defining features of human development, so the history of the horse is the history of civilization itself. Imagine riding versus walking the long distances of the Great Plains. They also became more nomadic because of the need for grazing areas.


Quote:
Originally posted by Skipjack Joe

Well, I guess I have to stand up for the Mongolians on this one.

Unlike Native Americans Mongolians actually won battles. In fact they sacked China several times. That's a 5000 year old civilization. The european knights with all of their armor and castles could not stand up to Mongols with primitive weapons on horseback. They held virtually all of asia from the pacific to Poland for hundreds of years. Historically speaking they had one of the greatest empires on this planet ... primarily due to their horsemanship.

I'm no expert on Mongolia but from what I know their lives are totally integrated with horses. They ride them, they eat them, they clothe themselves with them, they heat their homes with their dung. It's like a symbiotic relationship. Their culture is centered around the horse. Their people move with their horses to provide optimal grazing lands.

And why are we quoting Custer anyway? The man was a vainglorious loser. He was dead last in his class at West Point as I recall. He had a history of serious blunders in the army that resulted in demotions. His men didn't trust him. He was basically a prima donna who rose through the ranks due to his reckless courage. Poor judgement and recklessness - a bad combination that doomed his men at the Little Big Horn.


You are certainly correct, Igor. For at least 6000 years the horse has been an ever-present ally in war and peace. Civilizations have risen and fallen on their backs and evidence of the horse’s use is everywhere to be seen. Unverified by other experts, archaeologists in Saudi Arabia reported finding traces of a civilization that had domesticated horses nearly 9,000 years ago. Then again, other research places the first domestication of wild horses as happening in Mongol territory, namely on the ‘western Eurasian steppe’ - an area now shared by Kazhakstan, southwest Russia and Ukraine. This species, the so called “Mongolian wild horse” is thought to be the ancestor of all domesticated horses. Known today as “Przewalski’s Horse” (see photo below) the breed was named after the Russian explorer who discovered them. The horse quickly spread to the west and became domesticated there also. A stone drawing was unearthed showing horse drawn chariots around 2500 BC in what is now Iran. Presently, the oldest undisputed evidence of horse domestication date back to 2,000 B.C., when horses were buried with parts of harnesses and chariots. A report published March 2009 suggested the Botai culture of Kazakhstan had domesticated horses as beasts of burden and to use their milk as a food source around 3500 B.C.



The Mongols & Horses

On warfare and conquest, I would think that many things helped to make Genghis Khan’s armies so successful. First, he had a huge army, some historians figuring to over 250,000 standing deployment with that many in reserve back home. Second, they were highly mobile and excellent horsemen. Their tough little horses could gallop at speed for 6 hours. Third, their weapons were superior…named the short composite bow, a remarkable powerful weapon for both long and short range, using armor-piercing arrows. The riders could hit a target while at a full gallop. Truly invincible and conquered most the Far East and Eastern Europe. The design of that bow to use with horse warfare put his army as the most dangerous among all combatants. They were the ‘tanks’ of the day. Here’s what they looked like mounted and the design of the re-curve bows. The pull on most of these bows was about 165lbs…strong even for today. Each archer carried 60 arrows and could easily draw and fire them rapidly with accuracy. Add to that the long swords and spears and it’s easy to see how they decimated their opponents.

There is a traditional saying in Mongolian: "A Mongol without a horse is like a Bird without the wings".




Said by some to have been the best horsemen ever were the Jurchens or Jurcheds, a Tungusic people who inhabited the region of Manchuria (present-day Northeast China) until the 17th century, when they adopted the name Manchu.
Other great horse cultures of ancient times were: Scythians, Huns, Turks, and Parthians

But from all the verifiable evidence so far, we know that humans have hunted horses across the Eurasian steppe for at least 100,000 years. Analysis of bones found at two sites near Astana, the capital of Kazakhstan, suggests that 6,000 years ago, the Botai people were the first to turn their prey into a means of transport.



In case you’re interested, here is a timeline showing domestication of other animals.

Tamed Kingdom

Humans have domesticated numerous animal species over the past 12 millennia, beginning with man's best friend, the dog. Here is a sampling of roughly when and where the taming of some familiar critters occurred.


10,000 B.C. • Dog: Israel/Iraq
7000 B.C. • Goat: Iran • Sheep: northeast Syria/southeast Turkey • Pig: northeast Syria/southeast Turkey

6000 B.C. • Cat: northeast Africa • Cattle: Turkey • Chicken: southeast Asia 4000 B.C. • Horse: Eurasian steppe

3500 B.C. • Donkey: North Africa • Dromedary camel: southern Arabia • Bactrian camel: south Asia

3000 B.C. • Duck: southeast Asia

2500 B.C. • Guinea pig: Andes

A.D. 100 • Turkey: Mexico

A.D. 500 • Honeybee: Europe

A.D. 1000 • Goldfish: China

A.D. 1500 • Rabbit: Europe

A.D. 2014 • POMPANO: rambling but housebroken.



Now here’s some gossip about The Golden-Haired One….Custer.



Here’s a great mouth-to-mouth legend about Custer’s Last Stand and the remains of the General….During the 1920s, two elderly Cheyenne women spoke briefly with oral historians about their having recognized Custer's body on the battlefield, and had stopped a Sioux warrior from desecrating the body. The women were relatives of Mo-nah-se-tah, who was alleged to have been Custer's one-time lover. In the Cheyenne culture of the time, such a relationship was considered a marriage. (Which is much like holding hands and jumping over a log together like I did once in the Cree country of Far North Canada.) The women allegedly told the warrior to "Stop, he is a relative of ours," and then shooed him away. The two women then shoved their sewing awls into his ears, to permit Custer's corpse to 'hear better in the afterlife' because he had broken his promise to Chief Stone Forehead never to fight against Native Americans again. So it appears he was never scalped, a hideous mutilation first started by the white man.

When the main column under General Terry arrived two days later, the army found most of the soldiers' corpses stripped, scalped, and mutilated. Custer's body had two bullet holes, one in the left temple and one just above the heart. Capt. Benteen, who inspected the body, stated that in his opinion the fatal injuries had not been the result of .45 caliber ammunition, which implies the bullet holes had been caused by ranged rifle fire.



And that’s history for you…..as told by the survivors. :rolleyes:

Skipjack Joe - 3-14-2014 at 10:38 PM

Thanks, Pompano.

What I found interesting with this, my first reading is that 8,000 years ago native americans drove the animal to extinction. Yet when the spaniards returned with horses they learned to ride them and use them. I guess they had no understanding of these possibilities when they first encountered the animal and had to be taught.

BTW, there was interesting book I read a couple of years ago "Guns, germs, and steel" which argued that the domestication of those same barnyard animals in each culture were fundamental to it's development. I believe it had to do with a stable reliable source of protein which these animals provided that allowed stable communities to develop.

Pompano - 3-15-2014 at 07:44 AM


Quote:
Originally posted by Skipjack Joe
Thanks, Pompano.

What I found interesting with this, my first reading is that 8,000 years ago native americans drove the animal to extinction. Yet when the spaniards returned with horses they learned to ride them and use them. I guess they had no understanding of these possibilities when they first encountered the animal and had to be taught.

BTW, there was interesting book I read a couple of years ago "Guns, germs, and steel" which argued that the domestication of those same barnyard animals in each culture were fundamental to it's development. I believe it had to do with a stable reliable source of protein which these animals provided that allowed stable communities to develop.


Hola Igor, I’m guessing that the first ‘horses’ that the natives had experience with (before the arrival of the Spaniards) were the tiny, one-foot-tall, three-toed Hyracotheriums types. About the size of a fox-terrier, these guys were a mite too small to ride…and probably easy to hunt and eat. So easy to eat that they ate them to extinction. So much for conservation, huh?
Here an example of what the that ‘fast food’ looked like. The Hyracotherium



When the Spaniards appeared as ‘super-humans’ on their horses with armor, swords, and guns I would have imagined it fairly overwhelmed the natives….who were afoot and easy prey. So after finding horses breeding and grazing everywhere after the soldiers left, it was “ I can do that!” time for the natives, who quickly adapted to capturing and riding the European horses. As an aside, I am always a little amazed a the very short time in history that the American natives were a horse culture…from about 1550 to 1850 was the time period…a relatively short time period. Hollywood had made us think they had been on horseback for thousands of years. I guess it’s all about advertising.

On that book, ‘Guns, Germs, & Steel’, by Jared Diamond…coincidentally I’ve read it too, and it sits in my Baja library today. I can recall buying it in San Diego while on a shopping trip for Baja supplies in 2001…it sticks in my mind, because I got very engrossed in reading it while an impatient Co-pilot did the majority of the shopping. As I recall Diamond puts forth an unbiased and scientific reasoning that European advancement far exceeded the rest of the world due to farming, livestock domestication, communities & governments, and innovations which led to better standards of living, a more free flow of information, population density, etc. Recall also that the use of gunpowder invented by the Chinese was used by Europeans in developing firearms, which in turn led to the subjugation of the New World and other places. I liked it as a good global history of man, although it was a little intense and overwhelming at times...but I was being distracted. Co-pilot complained until I drove her to the mall.




Pompano - 3-15-2014 at 09:14 AM



Quiz:

"You're riding a horse full speed, there's a giraffe beside you, and you're being chase by a lion. What do you do?

- Get your drunk azz off the carousel."



BIG & SMALL

World’s Largest Horse

Sampson, a Shire horse gelding foaled in 1846 in Toddington Mills, Bedfordshire, England, is the tallest horse ever recorded. Sampson, owned by Mr Thomas Cleaver, stood 7 ft 2½in at his withers by the time he was a four year old, when he was re-named Mammoth. His peak weight was estimated at 3,360 lbs.




World's Smallest Horse


Thumbelina, the world’s smallest horse weighs 60 pounds. The height of this dwarf horse is only 17 inches.





A Fractured Fable...


A poorly-looking horse limps into a saloon with a bandage round his head.

He orders a glass of champagne, a vintage brandy and two mugs of beer.

He downs the lot and says to the barman: “I shouldn’t really be drinking this with what I’ve got?”

“Why, what have you got?”

“About 50 cents and a carrot.”


Worlds smartest horse

BeemerDan - 3-15-2014 at 10:17 AM

Interesting, Never knew horses were here before spaniards, or camels either. Thanks Pompano
[img][/img]

4 HORSEMEN OF THE APOCALYPSE

Pompano - 3-16-2014 at 10:08 AM

Fabled Horses of Historical Times as revealed to me from....









...an 1887 painting by Victor Vasnetsov.


The Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse
are described in the last book of the New Testament of the Bible, Book of Revelations. It describes the Lamb of God, (Jesus Christ), shown at the top, summoning four beings that ride out on white, red, black, and pale horses. In most accounts, the four riders are seen as symbolizing Conquest, War, Famine, and Death , respectively.

The Christian apocalyptic vision is that the four horsemen are to set a divine apocalypse upon the world as harbingers of the Last Judgment. Fans of Clint Eastwood will recognize that theme from his movie featuring him as Death in 'Pale Rider'. As always, Hollywood knows how to make the most money on Biblical themes.:rolleyes:


WARNING: I cannot be held responsible for the above, as apparently my parrot has learned how to type.

schwlind - 4-5-2014 at 12:45 PM

Pompano...

I loved this thread... thanks for all the contributions you make to Nomads!

Pompano - 4-5-2014 at 01:43 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by schwlind
Pompano...

I loved this thread... thanks for all the contributions you make to Nomads!


Thank you, schwlind,

I appreciate that very much.

durrelllrobert - 4-5-2014 at 06:51 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by LancairDriver




Horses have been used in warfare throughout history up to and including the ongoing Afghan war. A read of Custers book "My life on the Plains" reinforces the essential role of the horse on both sides during the latter half of the nineteenth century.
I'm sure Custer was well aware of the Mongolians horsemanship as history of warfare involving horses was an important part of the Army's Westpoint curriculum during the period he was there. He had a firsthand look at the capabilities of the Indians and formed his firsthand opinion on that experience. Our opinions are confined to what the various history books tell us. The Indians were introduced to horses much later than the Mongolians but they progressed in the care and taming of the horse very rapidly. Unlike the Mongolians, they more than held their own under fire from modern weapons, which the Mongolians didn't have to face.


US Army Calvary without horses

The U.S. Cavalry branch was absorbed into the Armor branch as part of the Army Reorganization Act of 1950. The Vietnam War saw the introduction of helicopters and operations as an airborne force with the designation of Air Cavalry, while mechanized cavalry received the designation of Armored Cavalry.

durrelllrobert - 4-5-2014 at 07:05 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Pompano
Glad to see some further interest in horses. After all, haven’t nomads been using them for centuries?


Quote:
Originally posted by LancairDriver

Horses have been used in warfare throughout history up to and including the ongoing Afghan war. A read of Custers book "My life on the Plains" reinforces the essential role of the horse on both sides during the latter half of the nineteenth century.
I'm sure Custer was well aware of the Mongolians horsemanship as history of warfare involving horses was an important part of the Army's Westpoint curriculum during the period he was there. He had a firsthand look at the capabilities of the Indians and formed his firsthand opinion on that experience. Our opinions are confined to what the various history books tell us. The Indians were introduced to horses much later than the Mongolians but they progressed in the care and taming of the horse very rapidly. Unlike the Mongolians, they more than held their own under fire from modern weapons, which the Mongolians didn't have to face.


Indeed, the American natives (Indians) did not learn horsemanship until after the Spanish had left horses behind in the 15th & 16th Centuries. Early in the exploration of the Americas (beginning with Columbus' voyage in 1493), Iberian horses arrived on Spanish galleons. Horse warfare in early colonization of the Americas was formidable. In 1532, 168 Spanish soldiers—including 62 on horseback—won the battle against 80,000 Inca foot soldiers by attacking the crowd on horseback and slicing through their quilted armor with steel weapons. Some of these horses escaped or were abandoned and became feral. Today's relatives of these escapees are the mustangs found in the western United States.

Wild Mustangs I photographed in Teddy Roosevelt Natl Park in ND. This park contains one of the largest concentrations of mustangs left running wild.




More typical mustangs..



So much has been written & sterotyped about the Spanish invasion, cowboys, & Indians that it is often forgotten that the Americas are the home of the modern, single-hoofed horse, ‘Equus’. Having evolved from the tiny, one-foot-tall and three-toed Hyracotherium some two million years ago, the modern horse migrated from North America to Asia over the Bering Strait land bridge. When the first humans crossed the strait in the opposite direction after about 20,000 B.C., they found the Great Plains teeming with horses, which for several millennia were among the many species of megafauna hunted by the first Plains peoples. Then, some 8,000 to 10,000 years ago, the horse followed the mammoth, camel, and other large American mammals into extinction, apparently as the victim of overhunting and a changing climate.


The horse that the Spanish brought to the Americas was the famed barb horse, a mix of Arab and Spanish stock. Bred to survive in the North African deserts, these small but sturdy animals found a fitting ecological niche in the dry, grass-covered Southern Plains.

Barb Horse



The impact of the horse was most dramatic on the Southern Plains, where a true equestrian culture emerged. Comanches, Kiowas, Arapahos, and Cheyennes, who became specialized horse raiders and herders, maintained large herds of surplus animals for trade with other Native groups and European Americans.



So attractive was this new horse culture that many groups–most notably Comanches, Lakotas, and Cheyennes–abandoned their traditional homelands for an equestrian existence in the Plains. In doing so, they became some of the most refined and celebrated equestrian societies in history, matched only by the great horse cultures of Asia. It is also possible that horses triggered a decline in women's status because the bison hunt became more the domain of the mounted male hunter rather than of the society at large. Little did these gals know that Women’s Lib was just around the corner…



The beginning of the reservation period after 1850 marked the end of the Plains horse cultures, but it did not end the association between Indians and horses. Rodeo has offered another important way to maintain the connection with horses and break some bones while having fun. On a more abstract level, most people still link Plains Indians and horses almost automatically, and the Hollywood film industry has sold the visual image of the mounted Plains warrior as the stereotype for all North American Indians. To many Indians the horse continues to symbolize their traditional cultures and lifeways as they existed before the European American takeover. From celebration parades and art to actual herds on reservation fields, horses are still integral to Plains Indians.


As said, the American natives adapted quickly to this new horse lifestyle and it changed their whole culture dramatically. Since travel is one of the defining features of human development, so the history of the horse is the history of civilization itself. Imagine riding versus walking the long distances of the Great Plains. They also became more nomadic because of the need for grazing areas.


Quote:
Originally posted by Skipjack Joe

Well, I guess I have to stand up for the Mongolians on this one.

Unlike Native Americans Mongolians actually won battles. In fact they sacked China several times. That's a 5000 year old civilization. The european knights with all of their armor and castles could not stand up to Mongols with primitive weapons on horseback. They held virtually all of asia from the pacific to Poland for hundreds of years. Historically speaking they had one of the greatest empires on this planet ... primarily due to their horsemanship.

I'm no expert on Mongolia but from what I know their lives are totally integrated with horses. They ride them, they eat them, they clothe themselves with them, they heat their homes with their dung. It's like a symbiotic relationship. Their culture is centered around the horse. Their people move with their horses to provide optimal grazing lands.

And why are we quoting Custer anyway? The man was a vainglorious loser. He was dead last in his class at West Point as I recall. He had a history of serious blunders in the army that resulted in demotions. His men didn't trust him. He was basically a prima donna who rose through the ranks due to his reckless courage. Poor judgement and recklessness - a bad combination that doomed his men at the Little Big Horn.


You are certainly correct, Igor. For at least 6000 years the horse has been an ever-present ally in war and peace. Civilizations have risen and fallen on their backs and evidence of the horse’s use is everywhere to be seen. Unverified by other experts, archaeologists in Saudi Arabia reported finding traces of a civilization that had domesticated horses nearly 9,000 years ago. Then again, other research places the first domestication of wild horses as happening in Mongol territory, namely on the ‘western Eurasian steppe’ - an area now shared by Kazhakstan, southwest Russia and Ukraine. This species, the so called “Mongolian wild horse” is thought to be the ancestor of all domesticated horses. Known today as “Przewalski’s Horse” (see photo below) the breed was named after the Russian explorer who discovered them. The horse quickly spread to the west and became domesticated there also. A stone drawing was unearthed showing horse drawn chariots around 2500 BC in what is now Iran. Presently, the oldest undisputed evidence of horse domestication date back to 2,000 B.C., when horses were buried with parts of harnesses and chariots. A report published March 2009 suggested the Botai culture of Kazakhstan had domesticated horses as beasts of burden and to use their milk as a food source around 3500 B.C.



The Mongols & Horses

On warfare and conquest, I would think that many things helped to make Genghis Khan’s armies so successful. First, he had a huge army, some historians figuring to over 250,000 standing deployment with that many in reserve back home. Second, they were highly mobile and excellent horsemen. Their tough little horses could gallop at speed for 6 hours. Third, their weapons were superior…named the short composite bow, a remarkable powerful weapon for both long and short range, using armor-piercing arrows. The riders could hit a target while at a full gallop. Truly invincible and conquered most the Far East and Eastern Europe. The design of that bow to use with horse warfare put his army as the most dangerous among all combatants. They were the ‘tanks’ of the day. Here’s what they looked like mounted and the design of the re-curve bows. The pull on most of these bows was about 165lbs…strong even for today. Each archer carried 60 arrows and could easily draw and fire them rapidly with accuracy. Add to that the long swords and spears and it’s easy to see how they decimated their opponents.

There is a traditional saying in Mongolian: "A Mongol without a horse is like a Bird without the wings".




Said by some to have been the best horsemen ever were the Jurchens or Jurcheds, a Tungusic people who inhabited the region of Manchuria (present-day Northeast China) until the 17th century, when they adopted the name Manchu.
Other great horse cultures of ancient times were: Scythians, Huns, Turks, and Parthians

But from all the verifiable evidence so far, we know that humans have hunted horses across the Eurasian steppe for at least 100,000 years. Analysis of bones found at two sites near Astana, the capital of Kazakhstan, suggests that 6,000 years ago, the Botai people were the first to turn their prey into a means of transport.



In case you’re interested, here is a timeline showing domestication of other animals.

Tamed Kingdom

Humans have domesticated numerous animal species over the past 12 millennia, beginning with man's best friend, the dog. Here is a sampling of roughly when and where the taming of some familiar critters occurred.


10,000 B.C. • Dog: Israel/Iraq
7000 B.C. • Goat: Iran • Sheep: northeast Syria/southeast Turkey • Pig: northeast Syria/southeast Turkey

6000 B.C. • Cat: northeast Africa • Cattle: Turkey • Chicken: southeast Asia 4000 B.C. • Horse: Eurasian steppe

3500 B.C. • Donkey: North Africa • Dromedary camel: southern Arabia • Bactrian camel: south Asia

3000 B.C. • Duck: southeast Asia

2500 B.C. • Guinea pig: Andes

A.D. 100 • Turkey: Mexico

A.D. 500 • Honeybee: Europe

A.D. 1000 • Goldfish: China

A.D. 1500 • Rabbit: Europe

A.D. 2014 • POMPANO: rambling but housebroken.



Now here’s some gossip about The Golden-Haired One….Custer.



Here’s a great mouth-to-mouth legend about Custer’s Last Stand and the remains of the General….During the 1920s, two elderly Cheyenne women spoke briefly with oral historians about their having recognized Custer's body on the battlefield, and had stopped a Sioux warrior from desecrating the body. The women were relatives of Mo-nah-se-tah, who was alleged to have been Custer's one-time lover. In the Cheyenne culture of the time, such a relationship was considered a marriage. (Which is much like holding hands and jumping over a log together like I did once in the Cree country of Far North Canada.) The women allegedly told the warrior to "Stop, he is a relative of ours," and then shooed him away. The two women then shoved their sewing awls into his ears, to permit Custer's corpse to 'hear better in the afterlife' because he had broken his promise to Chief Stone Forehead never to fight against Native Americans again. So it appears he was never scalped, a hideous mutilation first started by the white man.

When the main column under General Terry arrived two days later, the army found most of the soldiers' corpses stripped, scalped, and mutilated. Custer's body had two bullet holes, one in the left temple and one just above the heart. Capt. Benteen, who inspected the body, stated that in his opinion the fatal injuries had not been the result of .45 caliber ammunition, which implies the bullet holes had been caused by ranged rifle fire.



And that’s history for you…..as told by the survivors. :rolleyes:

Stil llots of wild mustangs at China Lake

durrelllrobert - 4-5-2014 at 07:09 PM

Used to have to scare them off the supersonic rocket sled test range when I worked there

http://www.google.com.mx/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=...

The number of wild horses and burros held in federals corrals exceeds the estimated 35,500 that roam free. Caring for the captives consumes 61 percent of the BLM's $75.7 million wild horse and burro budget.

The federal corrals in Ridgecrest, the closest to the Inland area, hold about 650 horses and 350 burros rounded up in California, Arizona and Nevada, said Art DiGrazia, who oversees the corral.

In Southern California, horses and burros are sometimes gathered on or near China Lake Naval Weapons Center near Ridgecrest, Fort Irwin north of Barstow and public land west of Death Valley and near the Colorado River in Imperial County, DiGrazia said.

Barry A. - 4-6-2014 at 09:59 AM

This thread has been simply EXCELLENT!!! Thanks so much to Pompano, SkipJack, and all that have contributed. Fascinating stuff, for sure!!!

Roger, I continue to be amazed at your knowledge and organizational skills of so many things. I salute you!!! :yes:

Barry

Speaking of Mt. Rushmore...

durrelllrobert - 4-6-2014 at 10:54 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Pompano
Ta-sunko-witko - Sioux chief of the Oglala tribe who was an able tactician and determined warrior in the Sioux resistance to the white man’s invasion of the northern Great Plains.

This is an impressive monument to a brave Oglala Souix warrior chief. It is an ongoing project and is located in the same area as the Mt. Rushmore statues.





..the photo you posted just shows what can be seen from South Dakota. Here's what you guys from North Dakota actually see: