BajaNomad

This proposed seabed mining offshore mag bay looks alarming

mtgoat666 - 7-30-2014 at 09:42 AM

This proposed seabed mining offshore mag bay looks alarming!

:!::!::!::!::!::!:

http://seekingalpha.com/article/2357095-oceanica-did-not-hav...

http://www.bcsnoticias.mx/oceanica-realizo-360-perforaciones...

http://money.cnn.com/news/newsfeeds/articles/globenewswire/1...

wilderone - 7-30-2014 at 11:33 AM

I don't think it will happen. Also, they have no money.

http://seekingalpha.com/article/2345235-oceanica-dying-fast-...

David K - 7-30-2014 at 06:55 PM

If you don't like mining on the land, and have an issue with mining the sea, just where are you going to get the materials you all are buying? Until we can mine the moon and asteroids, there aren't options.

mtgoat666 - 7-30-2014 at 07:23 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by David K
If you don't like mining on the land, and have an issue with mining the sea, just where are you going to get the materials you all are buying? Until we can mine the moon and asteroids, there aren't options.


I support wilderness preservation, and I think people consume too much for stupid reasons - people should consume less, and replace consumerism with more sustainable pasttimes.

There are always options.

[Edited on 7-31-2014 by mtgoat666]

Lobsterman - 7-30-2014 at 08:51 PM

I suppose you live in a cave, grow your own fruits and vegetables, have no electronic devices or electricity in your cave and walk to work. If not you are only fooling yourself with your self-righteousness.

Tioloco - 7-30-2014 at 09:10 PM

Well put. Time for a refrigerated beverage.... I mean cool stream water.

Pablito1 - 7-31-2014 at 07:39 AM

Lobsterman,
You said it well. People don't understand that the things that they use everyday have to come from somewhere. Also for sure they don't want "FRACKING" because they don't get their gasoline from a dirty oil well theirs comes from a clean service station.

Regards, Pablo

bajabuddha - 7-31-2014 at 07:51 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Pablito1
Lobsterman,
You said it well. People don't understand that the things that they use everyday have to come from somewhere. Also for sure they don't want "FRACKING" because they don't get their gasoline from a dirty oil well theirs comes from a clean service station.

Regards, Pablo

Pablito, I agree with both you and Lobsterman. However, fracking has nothing to do with gasoline. You're manzanas y naranjas here. And yes, we need natural gas from somewhere also, but oil drillers have been leashed enough over the last 100 years of drilling to slow their unabashed rape of the environment, to get the product responsibly. The gas-getters and their methods are new, and completely un-fettered from the last Administration. They have virtually no controls governing their exploits once the land-leases have been signed. It ain't a matter of what we need or where we get it as much as HOW we get it, and what we do to people in the process. Common sense should prevail, but the dollar sign beats it down every time.

David K - 7-31-2014 at 08:36 AM

What oil companies did 100 years ago has ZERO to do with how oil is extracted today.

It is FAR safer for the environment to get our needed oil from under our nation then to buy it from less environmentally minded places and ship it across the ocean in tankers.

Pablito1 - 7-31-2014 at 08:45 AM

Buda,
I suppose that I don't understand your point. Basically the only real changes that has been made in drilling and production is horizontal drilling. That's how your state, New Mexico, is benefiting from this latest production increase.

They have been doing "frack jobs" since the 1930s.

Regards, Pablo

dtbushpilot - 7-31-2014 at 08:52 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by bajabuddha
Quote:
Originally posted by Pablito1
Lobsterman,
You said it well. People don't understand that the things that they use everyday have to come from somewhere. Also for sure they don't want "FRACKING" because they don't get their gasoline from a dirty oil well theirs comes from a clean service station.

Regards, Pablo

Pablito, I agree with both you and Lobsterman. However, fracking has nothing to do with gasoline. You're manzanas y naranjas here. And yes, we need natural gas from somewhere also, but oil drillers have been leashed enough over the last 100 years of drilling to slow their unabashed rape of the environment, to get the product responsibly. The gas-getters and their methods are new, and completely un-fettered from the last Administration. They have virtually no controls governing their exploits once the land-leases have been signed. It ain't a matter of what we need or where we get it as much as HOW we get it, and what we do to people in the process. Common sense should prevail, but the dollar sign beats it down every time.


I've been in the oil and gas business for 40 years buddah. I have hands on knowledge of the industry from exploration, drilling, production and delivery of both oil and natural gas. I have witnessed many changes over the years in the energy industry. I don't arrive at a conclusion about this industry from my couch watching msn or surfing the left wing internet sights.

I can say from real world experience that your representation of the oil and gas industry is pure BS.

bajabuddha - 7-31-2014 at 08:55 AM

"Also for sure they don't want "FRACKING" because they don't get their gasoline from a dirty oil well..."
Pablito, what I meant (with the 'apples and oranges') was gasoline/crude oil doesn't come from fracking. The fracking debacle is from going after natural gas. That was my only point with you; otherwise, I was agreeing with you.

I do know about horizontal drilling; I lived on the edge of the Aneth oil field for 8 years, and a close friend is one of the leading petroleum-geologists of the area. Had many a discussion about the subjects... both crude and gas drilling.
Fracking is taking horizontal drilling and then 'fracturing' the shales to make impermeable levels of rock permeable, and then pressuring it to force gasses to other drill vents over a large area; so's oil mining now with salt slurries.

New Mexico is part of that find, but all the 'benefits' go to the Navajo Nation more than the State. New Mexico gets far more revenue from the Feds in research/development areas now, both from Sandia Labs and Los Alamos. Otherwise, we're at the bottom of the heap money-wise in the Nation.

bajabuddha - 7-31-2014 at 09:00 AM

DT, you used to be such a nice person. I'm not a "couch watching msn or surfing the left wing internet sights" guy. Guess we all have a little BS in us.

mtgoat666 - 7-31-2014 at 09:57 AM

full-scale seabed mining of phosphate has NEVER been done before. you want mag bay and san ignacio offshore shelf to be the guinea pig? you want a permanent turbidity cloud from dredging in these commercial fishing waters? it will be permanent in your time frame, many decades of dredging,... millions of tons per year.

peace out!

mtgoat666 - 7-31-2014 at 09:59 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by David K
What oil companies did 100 years ago has ZERO to do with how oil is extracted today.


it must have something to do with how oil is extracted today. heck, the same companies extracting 100 years ago are the same companies doing so today!

dtbushpilot - 7-31-2014 at 10:28 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by bajabuddha
DT, you used to be such a nice person. I'm not a "couch watching msn or surfing the left wing internet sights" guy. Guess we all have a little BS in us.


I can assure you Buddha that I am the same person I've always been.

I seldom get involved in this type of discussion on Nomads because they usually degrade to arguments over talking points provided by ones favorite news source rather than real life knowledge or experience.

Interesting to know that you lived near the Aneth area, a good amount of my early work was in that area as well (did I mention that my company's main office is in Farmington NM?). The Aneth field was explored and produced by a number of resource companies, many of them small producers. The governing body was, as you mentioned the Navajo Tribe. The tribal government wasn't as interested in safety and cleanliness as most government or other controlling entities, the dollar was king. There was (is) a good deal of corruption in the tribal government and as a result the Aneth field was a dirty, polluted, unsafe place where we didn't particularly like to work, besides, the gnats were oppressive. They were referred to as "no seeums" but they were so big that you could seeum :lol::lol:.

That was a long time ago, I haven't been out that way in 20 years or so. I hope they have cleaned up their act up there.

The San Juan Basin (northern New Mexico) is one of the largest natural gas fields in the country. The oil and gas industry is what fuels the economy of the area as well as the rest of the state. It has been the dominate job and income producing industry for about 70 years. Farmington has an excellent oil and gas history museum, you should check it out if you are ever in the area. It is interesting and informative regardless of your feelings about the energy industry.

I have no doubt that your friend is an expert in his field. If he has been around for a while (40 years or so) I'm sure he can tell you stories about how it was "back in the day" as opposed to how the industry in general is now. There have been lots of changes in how things are done with safety being at the forefront. When there is an accident or pollution causing spill everyone loses and the oil companies go to great expense to prevent such incidents.

There are hundreds of thousands of people working daily on oil and gas sites and related industries throughout the country, the vast majority of them are well paid and do their job in a safe, efficient manner. Their employers provide more benefit than you can imagine for our country in jobs, inexpensive energy, and trillions of dollars in tax revenue for local and federal governments.

I know what you are probably thinking "oil and gas corporations don't pay taxes, they get huge handouts from the government". It is after all a popular left wing talking point that is of course total nonsense. The tax dollars that the energy companies pay are substantial but the real money is represented in taxes that the employees are able to pay because they have a good job, the taxes that the car dealers, grocery stores, and restaurants pay because they have customers with good jobs. Let's not forget all of the small companies (I can think of one) that provide equipment and services to the energy industry that employ thousands of people in generally well paying jobs and pay somewhere in the neighborhood of 40% of their income in taxes. Apparently our company isn't owned by one of those "political cronies" that we hear so much about that pay no taxes and get huge government handouts. Come to think of it I don't know of anybody in our industry that meets that description, surely they exist, msn wouldn't make that up.

I guess you can see why I don't usually get involved in this type of discussion, it's too much work and I won't change anybody's mind with my seemingly endless drivel. I just thought perhaps someone would enjoy an observation from one who has and does walk the walk.

I think I see roosters chasing bait on the beach, better grab my rod and join in.....

dtbushpilot - 7-31-2014 at 10:34 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by mtgoat666
Quote:
Originally posted by David K
What oil companies did 100 years ago has ZERO to do with how oil is extracted today.


it must have something to do with how oil is extracted today. heck, the same companies extracting 100 years ago are the same companies doing so today!


goat, don't try to beat DK in the "stupid comment" division, he is a pro. I must admit though, with this last comment of yours you may be taking the lead....

micah202 - 7-31-2014 at 10:44 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by dtbushpilot

Interesting to know that you lived near the Aneth area, a good amount of my early work was in that area as well (did I mention that my company's main office is in Farmington NM?). The Aneth field was explored and produced by a number of resource companies, many of them small producers. The governing body was, as you mentioned the Navajo Tribe. The tribal government wasn't as interested in safety and cleanliness as most government or other controlling entities, the dollar was king. There was (is) a good deal of corruption in the tribal government and as a result the Aneth field was a dirty, polluted, unsafe place where we didn't particularly like to work, besides, the gnats were oppressive. They were referred to as "no seeums" but they were so big that you could seeum :lol::lol:.



....so your company knew that enforcement of laws wouldn't be an issue,,,took advantage of it!!?....I can picture those frackers in mexico doing the same thing....that attitude,,on any scale is something that is well beyond what we can afford.

...in a world where population and consumption graphs are on an exponential -explosion-,,,it's time that we realize that it DOES matter what we do when 'nobody's looking'.......the retort of 'how you going to consume the same' is nothing but sadly laughable....we simply cannot continue as we were...period.

...have at it:wow:

bajabuddha - 7-31-2014 at 10:49 AM

DT, was in Montezuma Creek and Aneth just 4 weeks ago. The stench of crude in the bottoms along the river is still unbearable, and the Local no-see-ums still have horrible congenital health problems from years of living in it. My geo-bud still works the fields around there monitoring new wells for the Bad Gas stages in the upper Pennsylvanian layers. You probably know him; he's been there 40 years and still working it. His initials are G. S. , lives in Bluff. Grouchy old curmudgeon, unlike the rest of us. I also battled a few oil well fires in that area when I was a VFF.

dtbushpilot - 7-31-2014 at 12:06 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by micah202
Quote:
Originally posted by dtbushpilot

Interesting to know that you lived near the Aneth area, a good amount of my early work was in that area as well (did I mention that my company's main office is in Farmington NM?). The Aneth field was explored and produced by a number of resource companies, many of them small producers. The governing body was, as you mentioned the Navajo Tribe. The tribal government wasn't as interested in safety and cleanliness as most government or other controlling entities, the dollar was king. There was (is) a good deal of corruption in the tribal government and as a result the Aneth field was a dirty, polluted, unsafe place where we didn't particularly like to work, besides, the gnats were oppressive. They were referred to as "no seeums" but they were so big that you could seeum :lol::lol:.



....so your company knew that enforcement of laws wouldn't be an issue,,,took advantage of it!!?....I can picture those frackers in mexico doing the same thing....that attitude,,on any scale is something that is well beyond what we can afford.

...in a world where population and consumption graphs are on an exponential -explosion-,,,it's time that we realize that it DOES matter what we do when 'nobody's looking'.......the retort of 'how you going to consume the same' is nothing but sadly laughable....we simply cannot continue as we were...period.

...have at it:wow:


Well, unfortunately by the time I got to the beach with my rod the roosters were too far down the beach for me to catch up with them...oh well, maybe next time.

You make an interesting, if not predictable observation micah, as it is really hot today and I'm sitting in the shade I'd be happy to take a moment to "have at it".

I was working in the Aneth field in the early 1980's, at the time my company consisted of me and a welding truck. Back then I didn't have a shop, most of my work consisted of field work mostly for small producers. One of my customers bought a group of existing oil wells in the Aneth field, one of their programs for the leases was to clean up the sites and install safety equipment on the pump jacks on the newly acquired leases. The pump jacks were mostly older equipment oozing fluids here and there, most had no belt or weight guards in place. My job was to build and install belt and weight guards and install spill containment rails and pans under the equipment. They also removed contaminated soil and other reclamation projects in the newly acquired leases. even back then responsible companies were starting to clean up their act.

I know you were hoping for a home run with your assertion that my company was reaping huge profits at the expense of the environment but in reality you only fouled one off, sorry to disappoint.

It seems that I have gotten off the topic of the original thread (how often does that happen?:lol:). I can't really take an informed stand on either side of the issue but just speaking from a historical point Mexico doesn't exactly have the best track record of protecting the environment where resource extraction projects are concerned.

I have never been to a Pemex oil field location or hydrocarbon processing plant, I have a picture in my mind of the old days in Aneth but don't know for sure. I believe that Mexico has and will continue to step up their safety practices in these projects just like we have in the US. It seems as though they are a generation behind us in environmental awareness but they are making progress....time will tell.

BTW: for the record, I think sea bed mining in Mag Bay is a really bad idea....

[Edited on 7-31-2014 by dtbushpilot]

dtbushpilot - 7-31-2014 at 12:22 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by bajabuddha
DT, was in Montezuma Creek and Aneth just 4 weeks ago. The stench of crude in the bottoms along the river is still unbearable, and the Local no-see-ums still have horrible congenital health problems from years of living in it. My geo-bud still works the fields around there monitoring new wells for the Bad Gas stages in the upper Pennsylvanian layers. You probably know him; he's been there 40 years and still working it. His initials are G. S. , lives in Bluff. Grouchy old curmudgeon, unlike the rest of us. I also battled a few oil well fires in that area when I was a VFF.


Sorry to hear that the area still stinks, I can still remember that smell.

I would say that that field is the perfect example of what can happen when there is no effective oversight or concern for the environment. A lot of the wells in that area were drilled a long time ago before protecting the environment was a big concern. Where do you place the blame, on the producers or the Navajo tribe? I think they both share the blame equally. That being said I'm encouraged to see how far we in the US have come as it pertains to protecting the environment. We still have a way to go, we always will. The Navajo tribe is a sovereign nation, they can do as they please with their country, much like Mexico.

[Edited on 7-31-2014 by dtbushpilot]

micah202 - 7-31-2014 at 12:25 PM

.
....no worries DT,,,I was trying to make a point in general,,,voicing from a place of frustration........I kinda feel that we'd all be doing better if the big picture was kept in mind.

wilderone - 8-2-2014 at 08:24 AM

"The Navajo tribe is a sovereign nation, they can do as they please with their country, much like Mexico."
The Earth is one planet - we humans' home. Ignorance in industry, when surrounded by facts, past history (huge irreversible scars), governmental laws, moral decency, and respect for all life, for the sake of making a buck for a relative few is unconscionable and irresponsible - no matter what spot on the planet it is happening. And neither Navajos nor Mexicans have a right to damage Earth - our home.
Has mankind learned nothing - does greed still prevail in spite?

bajabuddha - 8-2-2014 at 08:28 AM

yup.

solosancarlos - 8-2-2014 at 08:38 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Lobsterman
I suppose you live in a cave, grow your own fruits and vegetables, have no electronic devices or electricity in your cave and walk to work. If not you are only fooling yourself with your self-righteousness.


agreed
some people just love to complain
if they were eating nuts and berries and living in a cave their life expectancy may crest 40
there may be a solution here
let them go off the grid and eat bark and maggots
off the grid means no internet complaining

BajaGringo - 8-2-2014 at 08:45 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by solosancarlos
...off the grid means no internet complaining


We have lived here for years off-grid and I still am able to enjoy my daily dose of "internet complaining", quite well, thank you...

:lol::lol::lol:

wilderone - 8-2-2014 at 09:19 AM

http://www.floridatrend.com/article/7700/one-last-big-push-f...

This is what it will look like.

And the phosphate mining project in Namibia was shelved for 1 1/2 years due to EIA concerns. Thousands of pages of research online - none of it portends a beneficial outcome for the Don Diego project.

solosancarlos - 8-2-2014 at 09:26 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by wilderone
http://www.floridatrend.com/article/7700/one-last-big-push-f...

This is what it will look like.

And the phosphate mining project in Namibia was shelved for 1 1/2 years due to EIA concerns. Thousands of pages of research online - none of it portends a beneficial outcome for the Don Diego project.


you should just shoot yourself now and avoid all the future suffering

David K - 8-2-2014 at 09:28 AM

Can I get a Baja Fog please!:light:

SFandH - 8-2-2014 at 09:39 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by wilderone
http://www.floridatrend.com/article/7700/one-last-big-push-f...

This is what it will look like.

And the phosphate mining project in Namibia was shelved for 1 1/2 years due to EIA concerns. Thousands of pages of research online - none of it portends a beneficial outcome for the Don Diego project.


Marine phosphate mining has never been done before. The Namibia proposed project has been stopped because of environmental concerns, as has a proposed project in New Zealand.

Read More

Where is this proposed Mexican project? In the bay or offshore?


[Edited on 8-2-2014 by SFandH]