BajaNomad

Bad diesel fuel in El Rosario

divemulege - 8-17-2014 at 12:07 PM

Hey guys, I just filled up in El Rosario and the diesel is full of water! I made it about 500 meters and the truck said Ouch. I have never had a bad experience with this station before but stay away for now. Other bad place is Guerro Negro. Never fill up there!

rts551 - 8-17-2014 at 12:18 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by divemulege
Hey guys, I just filled up in El Rosario and the diesel is full of water! I made it about 500 meters and the truck said Ouch. I have never had a bad experience with this station before but stay away for now. Other bad place is Guerro Negro. Never fill up there!


wow, that is too bad...does your truck have a water separator?
did you have a spare filter?

willardguy - 8-17-2014 at 12:24 PM

that damn antonio! anything to make a quick buck! :lol: get ready!

bajaguy - 8-17-2014 at 12:43 PM

Did you go back and tell them??? Antonio will make it good

Ateo - 8-17-2014 at 12:55 PM

Were others having the same issue? Tell us more. They can stick the tank with water finding paste to confirm or check the in tank probe on the Veeder Root for a water reading.

mtgoat666 - 8-17-2014 at 02:51 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by divemulege
Hey guys, I just filled up in El Rosario and the diesel is full of water! I made it about 500 meters and the truck said Ouch. I have never had a bad experience with this station before but stay away for now. Other bad place is Guerro Negro. Never fill up there!


what is the price per liter for water water at baja pemexes this month?? are the pumps dispensing full liters of water?
i hate it when they short me on water fillups at pemex! :fire::fire:

chuckie - 8-17-2014 at 03:02 PM

Doesn't sound right to me...It would have to be almost pure water to cause a problem within 500 meters.....doubtful if the feed line would even be drained in that distance.....Fishy....

durrelllrobert - 8-17-2014 at 03:27 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by chuckie
Doesn't sound right to me...It would have to be almost pure water to cause a problem within 500 meters.....doubtful if the feed line would even be drained in that distance.....Fishy....

I saw that happen to a diesel boat that just filled up at the Coral Marina in Ensenada. Didn't even make it out of the harbor before the filter had to be changed. After changing it ran OK so must have just been a little water near the fuel pick up..

Bob and Susan - 8-17-2014 at 03:40 PM

you can't just say..."the diesel has water in it at el Rosario"

was the diesel at the station checked?

until then it's ok

the truck is probably old and had water in the tank already
it's pretty humid where he lives and if
he leaves the tank empty all the time it'll fill with water
pretty quick

basautter - 8-17-2014 at 04:02 PM

If it's a Ford, there is a water trap in the fuel line. It's a good idea to check it once in a while.

divemulege - 8-17-2014 at 04:28 PM

This is the third time it has happened to me in Mexico in three years. I drive back and forth to the states every three weeks or so. It happened one time in Guerro Negro and I made it as far as 300 meters. Had to turn around and go to a auto mechanic there. He pulled the filter and there was a water. Drained out as much as I could and made it as far a Vizcaino. There the drained the tank completed and there was 12 gallons of water in it!

My tank was at 1/8 tank last night when I pulled in to Baja Cactus. I then went and filled it this morning and got as far as the bus station and it started running bad. Drained the filter and it had water in it. Went back to the hotel and drained it into a clear cup and yes there is water in it. There is not any diesel mechanics here until Tuesday.

I posted this because I was trying to help anyone else traveling this week so they did not have the same thing happen to them. I am not going to bother posting on this forum to help anyone because you always get some stupid responses. Hopefully this helps someone and for you nay sayers don't you have something better to do than sit on here and post 3000 times?

Ateo - 8-17-2014 at 04:33 PM

Did you alert the station? Have they checked their tank? Just trying to figure out if it's the station's fault or not. If it is their fault they may pay for your time and mechanical expenses. :light::light:

I think most here are just trying to figure out if the problem is truly with Baja Cactus' Diesel. One would think if there was a problem, that every truck that was fueling up the last 5 hours would be having the same issue.

I've seen this happen in person. 2 years ago a MAJOR oil company delivered water into the storage tanks at numerous (rumor was over 100) stations throughout Southern California. 4 of my customers were affected and at those stations, cars were not making it off the lot. Tanks had to be emptied, piping had to be purged - it was a mess.

Just my $.02. And I have 4362 posts BTW. :LOL::lol::lol:

I hope you get going quick and continue on your journey. Good luck!

[Edited on 8-17-2014 by Ateo]

chuckie - 8-17-2014 at 04:51 PM

Get the big chip off your shoulder, your usual reaction when everyone doesn't agree with you. People are trying to find out whats up...

divemulege - 8-17-2014 at 05:07 PM

No Chuckie,
I tried to post something to help others and right away my integrity is always questioned. On the way to the USA I filled up in Santa Rosalia. I then filled up again in El Rosario. On the way back I filled up in El Rosario again. Water has never been present in the fuel in Santa Rosalia and talking to other racers today, they have had problems in the past with El Rosario. Being that I have hit this station two times in a row this trip and then had the problems immediately, it is a process of elimination. I have driven the peninsula and mainland over 150k miles since 1984 and I have plenty experience with it.

I went to the station to tell them immediately and there response was bummer! I went back and checked back into Baja Cactus and told them about the problem. I asked them to call Antonio to see if he knew a mechanic and they said they could not bug him in TJ. I still checked in anyways because it is my favorite hotel on the drive and the rooms are first class.

Adios, last time you will see me on this forum. What a joke!

chuckie - 8-17-2014 at 05:23 PM

It appears that you have little integrity to question. I doubt you will be missed...

Tioloco - 8-17-2014 at 05:28 PM

Divemulege,
Thanks for the info.
I don't see an integrity problem with you. I appreciate the info. That is Really the whole point of this forum.
:)

David K - 8-17-2014 at 05:39 PM

Posted just 2 weeks ago:

Diesel at BajaCactus in El Rosario...



At BajaCactus, in El Rosario, we have had a continuous supply of diesel for the past 14 years. Also, about two years ago, we installed a "Viking 1 Diesel Filter" at our main diesel tank, capable of water detection and particulate removal. An extra layer of protection for our customers that almost no gas station has, mainly because is an investment of over $3,000 USD to get that installed here in Mexico. Nevertheless, I believe in providing our customers with the best service possible.

Antonio Muņoz
BajaCactus

LancairDriver - 8-17-2014 at 10:42 PM

Thanks for the heads up divemulege. Some of us are able to evaluate information and make our own decisions without sarcastic commentary. It is a shame the number of legitimate contributors to this forum who have given up in disgust and went away because of the continuous sniping from the same old fossils who have no life other than contributing sarcasm and worthless comments. You would get the same reactions from the same suspects if you had reported the diesel at Cactus was the best you have ever run in your rig.

BajaCactus Diesel...

BajaCactus - 8-18-2014 at 01:15 AM

Divemulege... I am sorry for what happened with your vehicle on your past trip. I would have really liked to know about your problem when it happened in order to help you out. There is indeed a great honest mechanic in El Rosario.

Regarding our diesel, I do not now what happened with your truck, but I can assured you it WAS NOT our fuel and that we DO NOT HAVE WATER in our tanks. How can I be so sure, well, by regulation all Pemex gas stations must have a series of electronic sensors, with alarms, all along the fuel lines, starting in the tanks, and Pemex makes sure they are continuously working with scheduled inspections every four months (the "Veeder Root" mentioned by Ateo is part of this system). These sensors are always checking for fuel leaks, pressure of lines and of course water, in real time.

In our case at BajaCactus our diesel tank has an extra one not required by Pemex that I had installed for an extra layer of protection, specifically for water, plus an extra filter at the main distribution line to separate any particles and water, just in case.

Now, besides all these, every three months or so, all Pemex gas station receive the visit of a mobile laboratory which main job is to take samples of the fuel we sell and chemically analyze it, on site. They test the quality of fuel, contamination, particles, water, everything. Well, it so happens that we just had our visit around 3 weeks ago and we got a clean result. In fact, the lab technician told me he always finds the cleanest fuel all over Baja at BajaCactus, he even asked to see our additional diesel filter since it is something not required by Pemex. I do not have the report with me right now because I am in Tijuana, but I will upload it here as soon as I go back to my office in El Rosario, in about a week.

And finally, all Pemex gas station tanks, when installed underground, must have an inclination to the back. Pumps suction from the front, which creates a volume of fuel in the back that cannot be extracted into the fuel lines, in spanish this is called "volumen de fondaje". In our case, our tanks have around 1,800 lts of liquid in the back of each tank that simply cannot be pumped out. Which means we must have over 1,800 lts of water in the tanks in order for that water to make it into the fuel lines. And the water sensor alarms get triggered around 200 lts.

Now, remember all those sensors I mentioned before, well, they are continuously gathering data and create real time reports. I just got the report for our tanks (August 18th, 2014/12:00am) which I am uploading with this post.

As you can clearly see it indicates the ""volumen de fondaje" at 1,800 lts, the status of our sensors on the far right as "en linea" (on line) and that we have zero liters of water in all tanks. This because about a month ago we drained all the water created by condensation in our tanks (we do this kind of maintenance in our tanks every six months). From the diesel tank we extracted around 90 liters of water, this water was in the back, at the bottom, where it cannot be pumped out by our fuel pumps.

As I said in the beginning, I do not know what happened to your vehicle or where you got contaminated diesel but it was not with us and I can prove it. From my point of view, and forgive me if I am wrong, you only have assumptions and the title of your post is not only aggressive but it also harms business like ours that are always making our best effort to provide a reliable and honest service.

I apologize for my candidness but it does not seem fair to me that you damage our integrity and image only in assumptions. I can prove to you, anytime, that our fuel is always as clean as possible. Perhaps even cleaner than the one we receive.

Nevertheless, if you have any real proof that it was indeed our diesel the responsible for the damage to your truck I would be most interested to know how it happened, what we are missing or what is failing in order to fix it as soon as possible and you have my word BajaCactus will cover all the costs pertinent to the repairs of your truck and the time you lost. Otherwise I would politely ask you to rephrase the title of this thread you posted to something less harmful.

Divemulege, I appreciate your business and preference in the past and I would be more than happy to meet you in your next trip to Baja and personally show you all the sensors, reports and equipment I am mentioning here and if you or anyone ever need help or assistance I am always at your disposal and happy to be of service at info*at*bajacactus.com (also if you ask for the shift manager at BajaCactus or "encargado de turno in Spanish", they have a direct line to me).

Antonio Munoz
BajaCactus

[Edited on 8-18-2014 by BajaCactus]

BajaCactus Tank Inventory_August 18th, 2014.jpg - 49kB

chuckie - 8-18-2014 at 04:36 AM

Like I said...FISHY

woody with a view - 8-18-2014 at 06:41 AM

Antonio, thanks for the response.

Pescador - 8-18-2014 at 07:08 AM

Is it possible someone whizzed in his tank while parked?

water in diesel

J.P. - 8-18-2014 at 08:23 AM

It's commendable that Antonio goes the extra mile to keep water out of the diesel , but there is no bullet proof method to accomplish this, Having owned and operated several 18 wheel rigs Water in the fuel is just one of the Hazards I always carried a extra fuel filter but most times just removing the filter and dumping the water out then reinstalling the filter would suffice.
Everyone that operates a diesel rig should familiarize themselves with changing a filter on the road. its something that can be done by you.

micah202 - 8-18-2014 at 08:23 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by chuckie
Like I said...FISHY


...no chuckie-you're wayyy off the mark.......the inventory shows no water,,,and -definitely- no fish!:yes:

chuckie - 8-18-2014 at 08:52 AM

Corrected, I stand....

shari - 8-18-2014 at 08:55 AM

which gas station in GN were you referring to has bad diesel too....there are 3. The big one at the entrance to town..after you turn into town is where all the buses fill up...cant imagine they would want bad deisel.

thank you for your response Antonio.

Cliffy - 8-18-2014 at 09:26 AM

I have never seen a more honest and straight forward customer response than this one from Baja Cactus!
I also agree with DM on the snipping and I agree on changing the title of this thread even though I don't believe that DM had any ax to grind only wanted to inform.
It's easy to take offence with a written word when a disparaging comment was not intended by that written word whether by misinterpretation or wrong definition or poor phraseology on the writers part.
Obviously harm was not intended but harm was inferred and it looks as if all can be settled with a little calm exchange of commentary.
I used Baja Cactus on my last trip and will do so again if only because of this response.

BajaGringo - 8-18-2014 at 12:10 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by lencho
Here's a mildly related technical question; when tankers dump new fuel into your underground storage, does that stir up the water in the area de fondaje?


Diesel and water have a long history. Over the years, many have accused stations of cheating by selling watered down diesel. In times gone by that was true on occasion as some shady independent fuel suppliers would buy the "bottom of the barrel" diesel from the refineries at greatly reduced prices. Back at their yards they would attempt to clean it up and sell it just a few pennies cheaper than the rest and so such problems ensued.

As owner of state certified laboratories I got involved in some of these investigations and gave depositions over the years to explain our lab reports in such cases. I have been out of the business for awhile but in spite of the fact that stations can go to great extremes to ensure they only fill their tanks with water free diesel, it is still possible to end up dispensing water in the diesel.

How?

The new low sulfur diesel, because of its additives has a much higher affinity for absorbing water. Moisture via humidity can be absorbed into the diesel tanks through the tank vents as the diesel level drops and accumulate at the tank bottom. When the tank is nearly empty it is not uncommon then for even a small volume of water accumulated at the tank bottom to be drawn into the pump suction.

It happens, even with honest, conscientious station owners.

Although you would think El Rosario has lower humidity levels than other places, if they don't routinely pump out their diesel tank bottoms, the problem could accumulate. Does Antonio have moisture traps on his diesel tank vents and does he regularly inspect and suck out the tank bottoms?

I don't drive diesels down here, largely for this very reason although Reyes does. I have been with him several dozens of times when we filled up his truck at BajaCactus and never had a problem to date.

Lots of possibilities in this scenario and it is hard to point a finger without a more in depth investigation IMHO.

Also there is an anaerobic biofilm that can build up inside the tank. That biofilm holds water and sometimes when you fill up an empty tank it can cause that biofilm to break off and clog the filter...



Edit to add - I just read Antonio's post and with the slope bottom tank capacity he quoted and water sensors at 200 liters, it would be difficult, even with low diesel volume, to agitate the water phase enough to reach the pump suction.

With that info I am leaning more towards the biofilm buildup in the truck's tank scenario.

Just my dos centavos...


[Edited on 8-18-2014 by BajaGringo]

Cliffy - 8-18-2014 at 12:31 PM

In reading Antonio's response he says he sucks the water sump clean every 6 months and just did it a few weeks ago and got 90 ltrs form an 1800 ltr sump. Not much. also the 1800 ltrs is un-pumpable because the suction tube doesn't reach there.
I've run airport fuel farms and we have the same water issues with Jet A fuel. BajaCactus seems to have a good well run system from what I can read.

BajaGringo - 8-18-2014 at 12:33 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Cliffy
In reading Antonio's response he says he sucks the water sump clean every 6 months and just did it a few weeks ago and got 90 ltrs form an 1800 ltr sump. Not much. also the 1800 ltrs is un-pumpable because the suction tube doesn't reach there.
I've run airport fuel farms and we have the same water issues with Jet A fuel. BajaCactus seems to have a good well run system from what I can read.



I edited my post while you were posting amigo. Hadn't read down to Antonio's post and after doing so, I agree with you...

micah202 - 8-18-2014 at 12:37 PM

.
...interesting.........it seems 'water-free tanks' is much more of an active verb than a noun!..........helps to understand issues throughout Baja and the industry as a whole

...edited as with above posts--3x simultaneous thought-addition!:lol:

[Edited on 8-18-2014 by micah202]

BajaGringo - 8-18-2014 at 01:31 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by micah202
...edited as with above posts--3x simultaneous thought-addition!:lol:

[Edited on 8-18-2014 by micah202]



We're always learning amigo. Ain't life great???

:tumble:

micah202 - 8-18-2014 at 01:58 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by BajaGringo
Quote:
Originally posted by micah202
...edited as with above posts--3x simultaneous thought-addition!:lol:

[Edited on 8-18-2014 by micah202]



We're always learning amigo. Ain't life great???

:tumble:


....uhhhn,,there you go again being much more trusting and hopeful than reality often allows.....will you -ever- learn!?!?:(:(

David K - 8-19-2014 at 07:59 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by BajaCactus
Divemulege... I am sorry for what happened with your vehicle on your past trip. I would have really liked to know about your problem when it happened in order to help you out. There is indeed a great honest mechanic in El Rosario.

Regarding our diesel, I do not now what happened with your truck, but I can assured you it WAS NOT our fuel and that we DO NOT HAVE WATER in our tanks. How can I be so sure, well, by regulation all Pemex gas stations must have a series of electronic sensors, with alarms, all along the fuel lines, starting in the tanks, and Pemex makes sure they are continuously working with scheduled inspections every four months (the "Veeder Root" mentioned by Ateo is part of this system). These sensors are always checking for fuel leaks, pressure of lines and of course water, in real time.

In our case at BajaCactus our diesel tank has an extra one not required by Pemex that I had installed for an extra layer of protection, specifically for water, plus an extra filter at the main distribution line to separate any particles and water, just in case.

Now, besides all these, every three months or so, all Pemex gas station receive the visit of a mobile laboratory which main job is to take samples of the fuel we sell and chemically analyze it, on site. They test the quality of fuel, contamination, particles, water, everything. Well, it so happens that we just had our visit around 3 weeks ago and we got a clean result. In fact, the lab technician told me he always finds the cleanest fuel all over Baja at BajaCactus, he even asked to see our additional diesel filter since it is something not required by Pemex. I do not have the report with me right now because I am in Tijuana, but I will upload it here as soon as I go back to my office in El Rosario, in about a week.

And finally, all Pemex gas station tanks, when installed underground, must have an inclination to the back. Pumps suction from the front, which creates a volume of fuel in the back that cannot be extracted into the fuel lines, in spanish this is called "volumen de fondaje". In our case, our tanks have around 1,800 lts of liquid in the back of each tank that simply cannot be pumped out. Which means we must have over 1,800 lts of water in the tanks in order for that water to make it into the fuel lines. And the water sensor alarms get triggered around 200 lts.

Now, remember all those sensors I mentioned before, well, they are continuously gathering data and create real time reports. I just got the report for our tanks (August 18th, 2014/12:00am) which I am uploading with this post.

As you can clearly see it indicates the ""volumen de fondaje" at 1,800 lts, the status of our sensors on the far right as "en linea" (on line) and that we have zero liters of water in all tanks. This because about a month ago we drained all the water created by condensation in our tanks (we do this kind of maintenance in our tanks every six months). From the diesel tank we extracted around 90 liters of water, this water was in the back, at the bottom, where it cannot be pumped out by our fuel pumps.

As I said in the beginning, I do not know what happened to your vehicle or where you got contaminated diesel but it was not with us and I can prove it. From my point of view, and forgive me if I am wrong, you only have assumptions and the title of your post is not only aggressive but it also harms business like ours that are always making our best effort to provide a reliable and honest service.

I apologize for my candidness but it does not seem fair to me that you damage our integrity and image only in assumptions. I can prove to you, anytime, that our fuel is always as clean as possible. Perhaps even cleaner than the one we receive.

Nevertheless, if you have any real proof that it was indeed our diesel the responsible for the damage to your truck I would be most interested to know how it happened, what we are missing or what is failing in order to fix it as soon as possible and you have my word BajaCactus will cover all the costs pertinent to the repairs of your truck and the time you lost. Otherwise I would politely ask you to rephrase the title of this thread you posted to something less harmful.

Divemulege, I appreciate your business and preference in the past and I would be more than happy to meet you in your next trip to Baja and personally show you all the sensors, reports and equipment I am mentioning here and if you or anyone ever need help or assistance I am always at your disposal and happy to be of service at info*at*bajacactus.com (also if you ask for the shift manager at BajaCactus or "encargado de turno in Spanish", they have a direct line to me).

Antonio Munoz
BajaCactus




Here is the image that Antonio posted, for those who could not see it:


vacaenbaja - 8-21-2014 at 09:03 PM

I have run diesels in Baja exclusively since 1980. I NEVER had to drain water out of my separator/filter. All of my vehicles had sensors that went to idiot lights that would light up on two occasions, On start up as a system check along with all the other system lights and when there is water
in the system. Did your light come on before your rig died? How often
do you check / drain or change your filter? El Rosario is a very busy diesel
stop. There should have been a line of truckers with crow bars heading toward Baja Catus if the fuel was that bad.

[Edited on 9-8-2014 by vacaenbaja]

chuckie - 8-22-2014 at 02:19 AM

Yup.....

mtnpop - 8-22-2014 at 12:40 PM

Even tho most Pemex station have the diesel pumps a ways from the gas pumps some don't...
So i am always thinking of the folks pullin in and usin the green nozzle like in the states....
Green is diesel in the USofA and low test in Mexico...
Black is gas in the USofA and Diesel in Mexico
But of course no one would make that mistake would they???? All nomads are smarter that.. Then again all us old codgers could have a brain fart moment....
Now this should give some something to rattle on about for awhile longer.

htnfool - 8-23-2014 at 07:22 PM

Hola amigo's,

I just fueled up with diesel in El Rosario 2 days ago, no issues and no water in my tank. Nothing against Divemulege. The pemex and it's employees have always been very nice and honest. Can't wait to fuel up there on my way back down in October.


Let's keep this as positive and open minded a forum as possible, it's works out best for ALL of us...

[Edited on 8-24-2014 by htnfool]

Timinator - 8-25-2014 at 05:17 AM

I wouldn't accept a "report" from Mexican gas station log or sensor readout as proof of the sky being blue. In a perfect world, maybe, in Baja, never. This forum exists to help wade through the imperfections, irregularities, and flat out criminality that is Baja.

chuckie - 8-25-2014 at 05:27 AM

Hogwash..you know that how?

David K - 8-25-2014 at 07:37 AM

Tim we just know the kind of human that BajaCactus is and trust him.