BajaNomad - water in batteries way low?

water in batteries way low?

Santiago - 10-19-2014 at 08:47 PM

On my last trip in Feb, I made sure the 4 6v golf cart batteries (Sam's Club) that comprise my battery bank were full. About 2-3 years old. I leave them connected to the charger when I'm gone. 400 watts of panels.
When I return last week, it took 2 gallons of water to fill all the cells - all of them were dry as far as I could see into the cells. However, they seemed to work just fine, never going below 80-85% in the morning.
I only run a few lights and a couple of pots of coffee so the demand is very low. Just curious if I've cooked them.

Bob and Susan - 10-20-2014 at 05:45 AM

if they work they work...

I put 7 gallons in my bank this month...batteries use water

the more water that can fit in the cells make a better battery...

with only 4-6v you should have a low replacement cost if you ever lose one

remember voltage is ONLY an indicator of the condition of the battery
only use that as a guide
and wait till they are full to check cells...otherwise you'll worry too much

willardguy - 10-20-2014 at 08:30 AM

welcome to sulfation. start budgeting for new batteries.

Bajajorge - 10-20-2014 at 08:51 AM

Yep, you're well on your way to new batteries.
For future reference you should have your batteries checked by someone at least every other month in your absence.

ncampion - 10-20-2014 at 09:06 AM

You probably damaged the batteries and they will have decreased capacity ultimately leading to failure. If you are going to leave the system unattended for that length of time I would suggest going to AGM batteries which don't required water (generally). I also agree that you might check the float voltage setting.

rts551 - 10-20-2014 at 09:14 AM

my neighbor's batteries went dry. He purchased a yellow liquid called "new battery" (or something like that) at the auto parts store in Vizcaino and those batteries are going strong 2 years later. Don't know what it is.

larryC - 10-20-2014 at 10:56 AM

Jim
I agree with ncampion for the most part, except I wouldn't lower my float voltage too much. Water consumption happens during the bulk and absorb cycles, not so much during the float cycle because that cycle is usually pretty low amps and lower voltage. I would keep an eye on the system voltage, especially after a pot of coffee or 2. Coffee makers are a pretty large draw. If voltage doesn't drop too much then you probably got lucky and didn't damage your batteries too much. If voltage drops too much then you are probably going to need batteries in the not too distant future. I also recommend AGM batteries in systems that are not looked at on a regular basis. But along with the AGM batteries you should have a good charge controller that has a battery temp sensor and has the capability to set the absorb and bulk voltages set into it. You need this capability because AGM batteries are sensitive to over charging so a good charge controller is a must. Flooded lead acid batteries are much more forgiving to being overcharged. They just loose water faster if they are over charged, but if you are not there to replace it then that becomes a problem.
Hope this helps
Larry

Santiago - 10-20-2014 at 11:16 AM

Good info; my charger is a Xantrex and does have battery temp sensor but I have not hooked it up.
By the way, each trip I also rotate the batteries so that they are in a different position; does this have any value?

bajabuddha - 10-20-2014 at 11:21 AM

A couple more questions; i'm told to only use distilled water to refill (if battery acid is unavailable), and also once refilled and put back on a charge, if one cell 'bubbles' while charging, that pretty much is it for that battery. Ideas?

Bob and Susan - 10-20-2014 at 02:08 PM

keep the charge up...they will de-sulfate
the factory settings on a charge controller is ALWAYS low
to protect the manufacturer...
know YOUR correct numbers and reset it

all batteries "boil"...the cell is dead if it doesn't

check the batteries once a month...no more...

fill only with distilled water ...never new acid

forget the "temp sensor" that is just "bs stuff" for the sale of equipment

I think rotation is a good idea but cleaning the terminals is what you want to do

BIG cables is the key to happy batteries
car battery cables are too thin

coffee makers lower the battery voltage when run a long time but that doesn't hurt a good battery...a full battery can measure low voltage when burning a lot of energy
if the coffee maker stays on too long and the voltage drops the inverter shuts off
the lower the battery voltage the harder the inverter need to work

the more "load" on the system the lower the 120v is it can drop to 106v and burn up your electrical appliances in the house

best thing you can do is "just don't worry"
if the batteries fail...they fail
and they will...all batteries fail in time

again if they work they work...don't loose sleep over it
look outside and enjoy the view

deal with a problem later

rts551 - 10-20-2014 at 02:19 PM

using a hygrometer to check individual cells is a good way of checking the condition of your battery.

Santiago - 10-20-2014 at 02:46 PM

Just to be clear, as soon as the coffee is brewed I turn it off and keep the coffee in an insulated carafe.

monoloco - 10-20-2014 at 04:01 PM

I don't agree with forgetting about the temp sensor. Heat kills batteries, the temp sensor will prevent your batteries from overcharging in hot weather.

if multiple panels

akshadow - 10-20-2014 at 04:50 PM

IF multiple panels you might try disconnecting some of them when you are going to be gone so long. There are also special battery caps that are supposed to reduce the need to water batteries.

rts551 - 10-20-2014 at 05:12 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by akshadow
IF multiple panels you might try disconnecting some of them when you are going to be gone so long. There are also special battery caps that are supposed to reduce the need to water batteries.

If the controller is working...he could have 50 panels and it would not matter :bounce:

Bob and Susan - 10-20-2014 at 05:37 PM

hydrometers are great to check the condition but remember if the voltage is down the cells are down...

the big "turkey bayster" ones are too big...a small 4 ball type ($5) from a local auto parts store is just fine...

controllers control the charge...if no current is needed it turns off

actually when its hot batteries need MORE charge...
as wires get hot they need MORE voltage

the water savers are horrible...they save water but they screw up the top of the batteries...and make a static charge along the top of the batteries

most people will remove them and reinstall the regular caps
...they just don't work correctly

willardguy - 10-20-2014 at 06:26 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Bob and Susan
hydrometers are great to check the condition but remember if the voltage is down the cells are down...

the big "turkey bayster" ones are too big...a small 4 ball type ($5) from a local auto parts store is just fine...

controllers control the charge...if no current is needed it turns off

actually when its hot batteries need MORE charge...
as wires get hot they need MORE voltage

the water savers are horrible...they save water but they screw up the top of the batteries...and make a static charge along the top of the batteries

most people will remove them and reinstall the regular caps
...they just don't work correctly

"actually when its hot batteries need MORE charge...
as wires get hot they need MORE voltage"

bob are you high on drugs :?:

Tioloco - 10-20-2014 at 07:52 PM

2-3 years is probably time to replace anyway. Unless you don't mind a trip with bad batteries. I would swap them and enjoy your vacation.

monoloco - 10-20-2014 at 08:17 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Bob and Susan

actually when its hot batteries need MORE charge...
as wires get hot they need MORE voltage

Not true, colder batteries require more voltage to fully charge them.

http://solarprofessional.com/articles/design-installation/un...

Hook - 10-20-2014 at 08:50 PM

To paraphrase the old Manny Ramirez saying..........it's just Bob being Bob. :lol:

Temp sensors are bogus?
Hot batteries need more juice?
All controllers float at the correct voltage?

Egad!!! He's the Cosmo Kramer of the Nomads board.

What's your longest time away, Santiago?

There is no doubt that a high ambient temperature will reduce the life of most any battery, especially a conv. lead/acid battery. Probably the heat and possibly a high float voltage is draining those batts of liquid. If your controller senses sulfation and has a de-sulfation cycle, there goes more liquid.

If you're floating more than 13.4, see about reducing the float voltage.

Only measuring your specific gravity will tell you if there are cells that are toast.

I'd go AGM, if you have to replace them. Assuming you are there in six months and arent powering anything significant, just top them off and don't float them. Disconnect and let them sit. Many AGM mfgrs recommend this. They only lose about 1-2% per month.

I bought a "cheap" Chinese AGM at Batteries Plus about three years ago. I topped it off with a good bulk, absorption, float cycle (at 13.2) before I left and when I returned, it read 12.85. And it had certainly sat in some 95-100 degree temps. It was off the charger almost three months.

Oh yeah, and you can bone the Giants. NFD (no plucking dynasties!!).

Go Royals!!!!

landyacht318 - 10-20-2014 at 09:16 PM

When batteries are not cycled nightly, then they do not need to be held at absorption Voltage each day for any amount of time. At absorption voltageor higher. And especially when hot ambients exist is when they use the most water.

When you leave and no longer cycle the batteres, Reprogram absorption voltage down to float voltage. Or if you have a duration option. Set 14.2v for no more than 15 minutes.

When you return and start cycling the batts. Return absv to normal for about 2 hours.

Paulina - 10-20-2014 at 09:41 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Santiago
Just to be clear, as soon as the coffee is brewed I turn it off and keep the coffee in an insulated carafe.

So, what time is coffee usually ready?

P>*)))>{

Hook - 10-20-2014 at 10:19 PM

Please tell me you off-the-grid guys aren't REALLy using elec. to make coffee?

batts...omg !!

captkw - 10-20-2014 at 11:38 PM

one of the MOST understood things around !! lets deal with the most common type : flooded lead cell...a float charge is normaly 13.2 V (mantanice)...charging is up to about 15 V and gassing will occurs (sulpher) on leads plates hopefully be removed (not guaranteed) and NEVER let you batts get below 12.6 V BTW heat is a big killer of this type of batt and a temp sensor is a very GOOD thing...not a BS gig at all.....I deal with batts daily in my biz and the stuff I see is.....f,ing nuts !! there is NO outboard mad
e to run a deep cycle...FACT !!! last month I replaced 4 stators due to the most common marine misconception !!! I know someone will TRY and argue with this simple FACT!!! :cool:

Santiago - 10-21-2014 at 05:43 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Hook
Please tell me you off-the-grid guys aren't REALLy using elec. to make coffee?

heh, I know, but I have lots of excess right now. If I ever get another freezer then that will have to go and I'm back to stove-top.

Very strange WS for sure - I would have bet on a So Cal freeway series.....can anyone explain the Dodgers????

rts551 - 10-21-2014 at 08:20 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by captkw
one of the MOST understood things around !! lets deal with the most common type : flooded lead cell...a float charge is normaly 13.2 V (mantanice)...charging is up to about 15 V and gassing will occurs (sulpher) on leads plates hopefully be removed (not guaranteed) and NEVER let you batts get below 12.6 V BTW heat is a big killer of this type of batt and a temp sensor is a very GOOD thing...not a BS gig at all.....I deal with batts daily in my biz and the stuff I see is.....f,ing nuts !! there is NO outboard mad
e to run a deep cycle...FACT !!! last month I replaced 4 stators due to the most common marine misconception !!! I know someone will TRY and argue with this simple FACT!!! :cool:

I have no choice but let my batteries go below 12.6 when they are under a heavy load...especially at night. but they are not in my boat either.

ncampion - 10-21-2014 at 08:50 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Hook
Please tell me you off-the-grid guys aren't REALLy using elec. to make coffee?

It all depends on how much capacity your system has. I make coffee with electricity, I also run a 1 ton mini split AC unit in the summer time at night. I also have 7000 watts of panels, 7200 watts of inverter power(Outback) and 1160 ah of 48 volt HUP battery. Next I'm going to try to power an RO system to make my own fresh water. That will need another 2 kw of panels.

larryC - 10-21-2014 at 09:01 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by ncampion

Quote:

Originally posted by Hook
Please tell me you off-the-grid guys aren't REALLy using elec. to make coffee?

ncampion
That is a huge battery bank! That is also a huge array. Good for you. Love to see your system sometime. Are you going to try the RO system just to see if you can do it or is drinking water that expensive down there that it will cheaper to make your own?
Larry

Hook
I also use an elec coffee maker, usually just one pot in the morning.

[Edited on 10-21-2014 by larryC]

rts551 - 10-21-2014 at 09:03 AM

OK.. I'll admit it. I use an electric coffee pot as well... Maybe thats why my batteries dip below 12.6v sometimes. :lol:

ncampion - 10-21-2014 at 09:17 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by larryC

ncampion
That is a huge battery bank! That is also a huge array. Good for you. Love to see your system sometime. Are you going to try the RO system just to see if you can do it or is drinking water that expensive down there that it will cheaper to make your own?
Larry

Hook
I also use an elec coffee maker, usually just one pot in the morning.

[Edited on 10-21-2014 by larryC]

Larry, come on down our way any time to see the system. We get our water by pipa (water truck) and they are easily the most unreliable people in town. It's not expensive but it is the source of much frustration trying to guess if the truck will show up or not. I like being self sufficient and water is the remaining tie with outside service. Oh, I take that back, we also get propane delivered but they are totally reliable and we only need it about every 3 - 4 months.

.

larryC - 10-21-2014 at 09:57 AM

You guys have it so easy down there. If we want water, pila water, we either have to go get it ourselves or pay a $100 US to have it delivered. Propane is delivered but not very reliably. Sometimes they don't show up for 2 or 3 months. People using small tanks can exchange them in town but those of us with the stationary tanks need the truck. Anyway someday I just may show up down there and see your stuff on my way to Agua Verde.
Larry