BajaNomad - Conquering Baja With BFGoodrich’s Unbelievable New KO2

Ken, losing chunks of tread of your tires says more about your driving style than the quality of the tire.
The BFG tire below after 10 years (50 days per year) on one of the most grueling off-road trails in the US - the Rubicon Trail

[Edited on 11-24-2014 by 4x4abc]

You are right - After tackling the upper Summit Road, I noticed lots of wear on my BFG AT/KO tires - particularly, the rear pair. These tires had been aired down to 15#psi and had been heavily laiden for 4-5 days. Frequent use of rear locker on steep climbs, along rough bedrock caused the tires to chip profoundly.

Palomar Canyon - Mexicali Desert

Safe and sound in Tijuana

With the BFG KM2s, I have put about 10,000 miles on the set since May 2014, and they still appear new/recently installed. The tread compound and the sidewalls are superior to that of the AT/KO.

Summer Roadtrip (on 35" BFGs) to Oklahoma 2014

Gold Mountain trail - Big Bear, CA

Near Rollover on Dead End 4x4 Trail - Big Bear, CA

[Edited on 11-28-2014 by Ken Cooke]

Palomar Canyon 4WD Baja

Ken Cooke - 11-28-2014 at 09:38 PM

I found this rogue video floating around on the Internet, so I thought I'd link the video to this thread. It shows the punishment I put my All-Terrain tires through.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XSqZv5kxfeQ

4x4abc - 11-28-2014 at 11:12 PM

I found this rogue video floating around on the Internet, so I thought I'd link the video to this thread. It shows the punishment I put my All-Terrain tires through.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XSqZv5kxfeQ

too much gas, way too much air - especially in the front. Plus you did not use the front locker. Could have walked right up

motoged - 11-28-2014 at 11:26 PM

:light:

Ken Cooke - 11-28-2014 at 11:55 PM

too much gas, way too much air - especially in the front. Plus you did not use the front locker. Could have walked right up

Throttle - I was high-centered, but could back up the crevice, just not go forward. The rear differential at the driveshaft was hung up on the ledge that wasn't visible. That's why I took the winch line.

PSI - I was running between 12-15 psi. I bent the previous set of wheels, and that was expensive.

Front Locker - Front/Rear lockers were engaged, 4LO. It didn't look like I was in 4WD, but I was being cautious since Palomar Canyon is a 1 day drive to Hwy 2.

Is it a "Jeep Thing" ?

David K - 11-29-2014 at 08:51 AM

Quote: Originally posted by lencho

Front Locker - Front/Rear lockers were engaged, 4LO.

Given that, I don't understand why your rear wheels were spinning and front not. :?:

Harald is right, and he takes that heavy Mercedes everywhere. I also have taken my heavy truck everywhere... and it doesn't have a front locker, but the remarkable A-TRAC system that matched tire rotation across the axles.

Ken, we discussed this video before... it is obvious your front locker is not engaged because all four tires would turn (or spin) the same. The transfer case locks the front and back shafts together and the lockers lock the left and right tires together by removing differential action. All 4 tires rotate together, no 'difference' as there is no 'differential' action.

Of course you are concerned not to break anything (I heard the other Jeep owners concern)... But, in low range, properly deflated tires, lockers engaged all allow slow crawling and low stress four wheeling. Didn't matter if your rear diff was hung up, if just one front tire had good contact with the ground, that should have pulled the Jeep up and out of that hole.

How did the other Rubicons get over that rut? Thank you for sharing the video again, none-the-less!

Ken Cooke - 11-29-2014 at 10:19 AM

Quote: Originally posted by lencho

Front Locker - Front/Rear lockers were engaged, 4LO.

Given that, I don't understand why your rear wheels were spinning and front not. :?:

+

Harold and you need to follow me through ruts like those, and we'll see who makes it through. Short wheelbase vehicles have a better chance than longer wheelbase pickup trucks and SUVs with moderate lifts. The other (longer wheelbase) Rubicon took the bypass - as did the similarly equipped TJ Sport, and I drove directly through it. I selected my air locker just before hitting the rut, and could have backed out - but that doesn't make for action-packed video. :!:

When the air lockers are selected, the wheels need to make a couple of complete revolutions before they engage. My friend Victor thought I was in 2WD, and after backing up the first time, and driving back into the rut, he saw that the Jeep was in 4LO, but he still couldn't tell if the lockers were engaged or not.

wessongroup - 11-29-2014 at 03:05 PM

Good stuff ... thanks for sharing ... tough sledding in a couple of those shots ...

Was just struck by this:

“In 2013, the BFGoodrich Performance Team took another Baja 1000 class victory, using not speciality racing rubber, but the same street-legal KO2 tires consumers will be able to buy for their daily drivers and weekend warriors.”

And on the Subaru's ... the 2.5 FB engine they started using .. was having more than its share of problems ... Subaru were just replacing the entire engine ... when folks brought it in for repairs

And in some cases ... even the replaced engine would not hold up

Some have had good luck with the FB 2.5, but, given the horror stories ... I'd pass on that one engine ... just saying

They went with the 2.0 FA in 2014 over the 2.5 FB ... In Japan, only the 2.0 is offered ... not the 2.5 in either FB or FA

David K - 11-29-2014 at 05:03 PM

FB, FA ??

FB= Four Banger or Flat Boxer ?? FA ?? No clue, sorry

Thanks, from a former Subaru owner (3 of them).

4x4abc - 11-29-2014 at 05:19 PM

Ken,

no locker needs a couple of tire revolutions to engage. The number of teeth on the dog clutch essembly determines how soon the locker engages. Early style Jeep Rubicon have about 30 teeth on each side - so, 60 in total. 360 degrees (for one full revolution) /60 = 6 degrees. So, it should take the Rubicon locker a maximum of 6 degrees tire rotation to fully engage.

Newer style Jeep Rubicon have about 40 opposing teeth = 9 degrees max for full engagement.

However, for a safe lockup the difference of rotations left and right should be as little as possible. No more than 1000 rpm in 1st gear low range. If more speed is chosen, engagement will take very long and the teeth will be damaged in the process.

[Edited on 11-30-2014 by 4x4abc]

wessongroup - 11-29-2014 at 05:47 PM

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Subaru_engines

David K - 11-29-2014 at 06:33 PM

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Subaru_engines

Thanks, so they are Subaru engine series numbers (letters) and not an abbreviation for two words.

mtgoat666 - 11-29-2014 at 08:05 PM

Quote: Originally posted by lencho

Front Locker - Front/Rear lockers were engaged, 4LO.

Given that, I don't understand why your rear wheels were spinning and front not. :?:

Ken,

no locker needs a couple of tire revolutions to engage. The number of teeth on the dog clutch essembly determines how soon the locker engages. Early style Jeep Rubicon have about 30 teeth on each side - so, 60 in total. 360 degrees (for one full revolution) /60 = 6 degrees. So, it should take the Rubicon locker a maximum of 6 degrees tire rotation to fully engage.

Newer style Jeep Rubicon have about 40 opposing teeth = 9 degrees max for full engagement.

However, for a safe lockup the difference of rotations left and right should be as little as possible. No more than 1000 rpm in 1st gear low range. If more speed is chosen, engagement will take very long and the teeth will be damaged in the process.

[Edited on 11-30-2014 by 4x4abc]

A 14 year old girl on a mtn bike could kick ass against any you bloviating old guys in 4wds trying to drive across an 18 inch deep ditch like in the video . And she would do it without being a pontificating gas bag.

David K - 11-29-2014 at 08:58 PM

A bicycle is easy. Two tons of steel is hard!

mtgoat666 - 11-29-2014 at 09:26 PM

A bicycle is easy. Two tons of steel is hard!

I bet $100 you could not make it 1/4 mile up a paved 6% grade on a bike with granny gears without stopping for a rest.
Nothing hard about driving a car with an open beer between your legs and a ham and cheese sandwich in your fist
:lol:

David K - 11-30-2014 at 01:02 AM

You are probably right... not at my age and shape... getting old sucks... and getting fat is hard to reverse!

4x4abc - 11-30-2014 at 06:47 AM

Quote: Originally posted by mtgoat666

A bicycle is easy. Two tons of steel is hard!

I am pretty old and I love cold wet stuff between my legs while driving (heated seats on, of course) - but I'll take you up on your bet.
Money will go to our Centenario charity, building houses for people who have lost literally everything during Odile. Do we have a bet?

[Edited on 11-30-2014 by BajaNomad]

monoloco - 11-30-2014 at 08:38 AM

Quote: Originally posted by mtgoat666

A bicycle is easy. Two tons of steel is hard!

I'll bet $100 to your charity that the goat will never put his money where his mouth is.

[Edited on 11-30-2014 by BajaNomad]

mtgoat666 - 11-30-2014 at 09:33 AM

Quote: Originally posted by mtgoat666

A bicycle is easy. Two tons of steel is hard!

No, we don't have a bet. The original comment was rhetorical for DK.

If you want to give money, then do so, and don't look for me to provide your motivation.

David K - 11-30-2014 at 09:36 AM

Why me, it was Ken Cooke who needed some help? I have never ever needed another vehicle to pull me out of a stuck. Of course I usually travel solo, so I have learned how to four wheel drive. I also pull others out of trouble because that's what good humans do.

Ken Cooke - 11-30-2014 at 09:49 PM

Why me, it was Ken Cooke who needed some help? I have never ever needed another vehicle to pull me out of a stuck. Of course I usually travel solo, so I have learned how to four wheel drive. I also pull others out of trouble because that's what good humans do.

If you're not taking difficult lines, you're not really 'wheeling. I could have backed out of the rut, but that wasn't my objective. Testing my vehicles limits with new (at the time) 35" tires was more interesting than taking the bypass. :!:

Ken Cooke - 11-30-2014 at 10:02 PM

Ken,

no locker needs a couple of tire revolutions to engage.
[Edited on 11-30-2014 by 4x4abc]

Harold - Take a look at this thread. I'll be glad to loan you my Rubicon to see how the lockers engage.

http://www.wranglerforum.com/f210/rubicon-lockers-77744.html

Thread post #2:
"Flashing means the command got to the PCM, but the locker has not engaged yet.

Engaged it will be on solid."

David K - 12-1-2014 at 03:57 PM

Ken,

no locker needs a couple of tire revolutions to engage.
[Edited on 11-30-2014 by 4x4abc]

Just read that thread Ken, and my goodness! There are many threads on Tacoma World with questions about flashing vs. solid light for the locker (or transfer case). Tacomas are the same, going from flashing when button is pushed to solid when engaged. Ours is an electric motor that locks the diff, not air lines. Ours only works in L4 as well, but there are mods to get the locker to work anytime. The 2WD Off Road TRD Prerunners have a locker, too...

So, for you... before you get into a low traction situation, be in 4WD (don't wait until you're stuck)... I pretty much go into 4WD (H4) when I leave the pavement. Toyota recommends using the 4WD monthly anyway to keep the parts 'lubed' and ready. The truck (and any vehicle) drives better in 4WD, too.

Before you get into a severe traction situation, lock your differential (at least the rear, as it has most of the work load, but both wouldn't hurt going over that rut). If your diffs were not locked (light flashing) then don't proceed into the rut until they are on solid.

Unless your friend was itching to use his winch, there was no need... What if you were solo?

For others or newbies to off road driving, here are some steps to not get stuck or to get unstuck (use any or all of these, if you have them):

1) Engage 4WD. High Range if level or dry. Low Range if steep or wet.
2) Engage Locker(s) or Traction Control.
3) Deflate Tires (more).
4) Add rocks to bottom of ditch so there is less chance of bottoming out.

wessongroup - 12-1-2014 at 04:35 PM

Would seem a good idea ... IMHO

Didn't know it worked that way ... The 86 Bronco is an "automatic" ...

But, never went where you guys go ...

Agree with "knowing" what your vehicle will do ... under various situations ... just good planning

David K - 12-1-2014 at 06:43 PM

That's for sure... and if you have options like lockers, A-TRAC, etc., then test it all out in a comfortable setting with others if you need support.

When I got my latest Tacoma, with the new traction systems (that nobody at the dealer could explain correctly), I went off road and did all sorts of testing with it to see how it worked.

Ocotillo Wells/ Anza Borrego Desert, some grove roads near here in San Marcos/Escondido we call the 'Welk Run', and then Bahia Santa Maria where it first drove on a Baja beach. I found that the A-TRAC system was superior to using the rear locker in extreme conditions since it works the front tires as well. Now Ken's Jeep Rubicon has front and rear lockers, which should turn his Jeep into a tractor, and with just one tire touching the ground, should pull his Jeep through... as A-TRAC will on a Tacoma (or FJ Cruiser, 4Runner, Tundra, etc. and some Lexus models also have A-TRAC.

TMW - 12-1-2014 at 07:33 PM

David I think Ken's PLR run in April would be a good place to show us what your Tacoma with the new traction stuff can do going up Basket Ball Hill. Also we can check out Kens locking system.

Ken Cooke - 12-1-2014 at 10:08 PM

David I think Ken's PLR run in April would be a good place to show us what your Tacoma with the new traction stuff can do going up Basket Ball Hill. Also we can check out Kens locking system.

Basketball Hill is very easy. I'm in front of Mick's Ford Ranger in this video.

David K - 12-1-2014 at 11:52 PM

The Widowmaker, the other dips, and the 3 ft. deep bog the last mile to Mission Santa Maria is about the best combo traction test one can pit against a vehicle... Cameron Steele was stopped short of the mission in his Raptor, it was too rough... but the stock Tacoma didn't hesitate when it last was in there... nor did most of the other rigs in our group.

If I can get away in April, I would like to go... but I will make Ken get through ruts without a winch, because a Rubicon can!

wessongroup - 12-2-2014 at 12:01 AM

This may help ... :biggrin:

David K - 12-2-2014 at 09:01 AM

Hilarious! Thank you... I will use that in the future! LOL

wessongroup - 12-2-2014 at 03:08 PM

Good to see something which isn't argued about ... :lol:

and under the description ..

"I am told this video is still utilized as a training aid for prospective politicians, lawyers, and spin doctors."

PaulW - 12-2-2014 at 05:37 PM

Where is Widowmaker. I never heard that name till I joined Nomads?

David K - 12-2-2014 at 06:08 PM

Where is Widowmaker. I never heard that name till I joined Nomads?

If you search Widowmaker on You Tube, you will see it has been a popular name for the extreme steep/ rocky grade, just over 1 mile west of Mission Santa Maria. You must drop down it going to the mission, only to have to climb it to return to Rancho Santa Ynez/ Cataviña.

My first time over it was on a quad in 1999, with the late Baja Mur who was on a motorcycle. Climbing back up, we were both thrown from our rides and left blood on the rocks... that's when I named it The Widowmaker!

Old time off road desert rat and Aridologist, Neal Johns advised me after that trip to get a Toyota Tacoma Off Road 4WD truck as it came from the factory with a locking differential. It was Neal's opinion that the locker would be needed to climb up the Widowmaker. I seriously wanted to return to Mission Santa Maria, after the brief visit in '99.

I have taken all three of my Tacomas to the mission as an initiation to prove my truck worthy to be called 'Baja Proven'! Other Nomads have joined me on those three trips. Neal Johns was on the last one, and it was he who needed to be pulled back to civilization when his custom locking differential shattered soon after leaving the mission. Neal was 80 years old and he was tough as the desert being pulled out of the deep canyon the mission is located in.

Ken Cooke calls it Mission Impossible (from a Baja guidebook description of the road) in his posts. It is a road much like the Rubicon Trail in that you drive on granite boulder. It takes close to three hours to drive the 14.5 miles!

Photos from my 4 trips to Mission Santa Maria:

1999 (my first web page, made in 2000, where I call it Widowmaker): http://www.vivabaja.com/missionsm/index.html (1 bike, 1 quad)

2003: http://www.vivabaja.com/403/ (2 Toyotas, 1 Jeep, Lost Dog, Rattlesnake)

2007: http://vivabaja.com/msm/ (1 Toyota, 1 Land Rover, Bighorn Sheep)

2010: http://vivabaja.com/msm2010/ (4 Toyotas, 1 Dodge, 1 4WD Motorhome)

Nomads in Low Range having fun!...

WIDOWMAKER DOWN:

THE BOG:

MISSION COMPLEX 1767-1774:

More steep grades beyond the mission to the end of the road...

Back into the BOG!

WIDOWMAKER UP:

That was a long night! All ended up well thanks to good Nomad friends, and great azzistance from Baja Cactus to get Neal running again!

[Edited on 12-3-2014 by David K]

David K - 12-3-2014 at 09:46 AM

I solved the burro auto correct by using z's in azzistance so it doesn't read assistance! LOL

PaulW - 12-3-2014 at 04:03 PM

DK, Thanks for the Widowmaker input. I had discovered your hand drawn 2007 map a while back, but was confused as usual. So after the mission what is the road like to get to Gonzaga?

I originally had it in my mind that Widow maker was the bad hill between La Turqueasa and Hwy 1 ? Your map set me straight.
Thanks

David K - 12-3-2014 at 05:33 PM

DK, Thanks for the Widowmaker input. I had discovered your hand drawn 2007 map a while back, but was confused as usual. So after the mission what is the road like to get to Gonzaga?

I originally had it in my mind that Widow maker was the bad hill between La Turqueasa and Hwy 1 ? Your map set me straight.
Thanks

Hi Paul. There is NO auto road to Gonzaga from the mission! There is only EL CAMINO REAL beyond the bulldozed roadbed from the early 1970's when construction to Punta Final was abandoned, 2 miles east of the mission.

The Fred Hampe road reached the edge of the deep Santa Maria Canyon and he either gave up, or the Highway was being built and that would speed up the drive between Santa Ynez and Punta Final (both owned by the same lady, Josefina Zuñiga).

The Franciscan constructed Camino Real goes from near the end of the Hampe road, up the north ridge of the canyon and stays along the north ridge to where the canyon ends on the desert near Gonzaga. The Jesuits had used an Indian trail in the canyon bottom to where it climbed up and hits the end of the Hampe Road (you can see all this on Google Earth). The Jesuit route was dangerous to travel over. They were removed from California only 7 months after moving to Santa Maria from Calamajué, so not enough time for them to have a better road made.

At that point, the Camino Real went to Las Palmitas oasis then east and south to Calamajué and San Borja, passing just west of Coco's Corner.

A couple of motorcycles with damage have used the Camino Real to go from Gonzaga to the mission, but it is seriously a hiking trail only. Even Graham Mackintosh tried to get his burro to Gonzaga on it, and it was a disaster.

Another trail was built by the Franciscans to supply Serra's first missions (San Fernando and then San Diego) and it goes just north of the Santa Maria mission and goes to the bay near Papa Fernandez where a warehouse was built. Baja Bucko and her son road mules on it back in 2001 and even hid a geocache along the way! You can see some of this cargo trail on GE as well.

The closest auto road from Gonzaga to Cataviña is the LA TURQUESA CANYON trail, known to some as Coco's Shortcut or the XR RIDE. Made passable with hand labor by The squarecircle, TW, and others... then Roy (The squarecircle) drove his LR3 Land Rover up it and to Hwy. 1 from Hwy. 5).

Here's that 2007 map I made, for anyone who is curious...

[Edited on 12-4-2014 by David K]

chippy - 12-3-2014 at 05:42 PM

The "bog" looks harder then the rocky hills? I wouldn´t think a rear locker would make any difference in that mud? Great going!

David K - 12-3-2014 at 05:47 PM

The bog that wet year (2010) was indeed scarier than the Widowmaker!

It had never been that deep and one year it was just wet sand.

I never used my locker in 2010, but instead used the A-TRAC, and that was better as it auto-locks the front tires too. In the bog and all of the hill climbing was in Low Range, A-TRAC... and no problem getting through, but it was tense! HB Murphy's lady recorded that trip and it's on You Tube. She screams as their Tacoma splashes in the deep water! Very funny listening to her concern over us, we were behind them.

willardguy - 12-3-2014 at 05:54 PM

I thought there was a nomad that made Gbay to the mission in a jeep, no? malcolm's boy did it, the kid next door and his pop made it (in rokon's). good tune up for erzberg eh?

David K - 12-3-2014 at 05:59 PM

It is physically impossible due to cliffs, boulders, and you are the side of a mountain with a 1,000 ft. drop in parts!

Yes, a Rokon would be possible with great care. Kevin Ward (Dust to Glory producer, Baja 1000 racer) did it on a Honda XR with great damage to it when he had to launch it across ravines by popping the clutch and picking it up on the other side! Malcolm Smith has gotten credit as well for many crazy routes in Baja!

My son and I hiked 2/3 of the way in 2003: http://vivabaja.com/1103/page2.html

[Edited on 12-4-2014 by David K]

willardguy - 12-3-2014 at 09:44 PM

soooo... supplies dropped off at the west end of bahia willard destined for santa maria mission took this route????

David K - 12-4-2014 at 08:28 AM

Quote: Originally posted by willardguy

soooo... supplies dropped off at the west end of bahia willard destined for santa maria mission took this route????

The missionary explorer Consag named the sheltered bay San Luis Gonzaga. The point by Papa Fernandez' that encloses the north end of the bay was named 'Willard' a hundred and fifty years later, then the U.S. mapped the coast of Baja and applied Willard to the bay already named Gonzaga. It's been confusing ever since, LOL!

Your photo location isn't given, but if that's Santa Maria Canyon, then NO.

Supplies for San Fernando mission and those beyond were dropped off on the west side of Gonzaga Bay, where the warehouse ruins are. The trail went west in Arroyo Alfredo or parallel to it before climbing the hills. You can see it on satellite images before it intersects with the Mission Santa Maria road, about 3-4 miles west of that mission.

Once Mission San Fernando de Velicatá was founded in 1769, Mission Santa Maria was not a full mission for long before becoming just a way-station on the Camino Real. The last documents of it as a mission were in 1774.

Here is the Camino Real route in the region, as well as the missions...

Howard Gulick Map 1955

Harry Crosby Map 1977

PaulW - 12-4-2014 at 08:43 AM

It is physically impossible due to cliffs, boulders, and you are the side of a mountain with a 1,000 ft. drop in parts!

My son and I hiked 2/3 of the way in 2003: http://vivabaja.com/1103/page2.html

[Edited on 12-4-2014 by David K]

========
on http://vivabaja.com/1103/page4.html on your GPS directions you make a note "(ECR-x)" what is that a shortcut for?
Just a WP name?
PW

David K - 12-4-2014 at 09:23 AM

========
on http://vivabaja.com/1103/page4.html on your GPS directions you make a note "(ECR-x)" what is that a shortcut for?
Just a WP name?
PW

Hi Paul,
I posted those 2003 GPS notes here for clarification. I don't have an 'ECR-x', unless you mean any or all of them (1-8)? None are short cuts, but the actual GPS on EL CAMINO REAL (at map datum NAD27 Mex). I have newer postings. Also note that the Las Palmitas access road was reported washed out where it drops down about 3 miles from Hwy. 5. Using the arroyo from the new bridge may be the only way now?

GPS Directions (map datum NAD27 Mexico)

Take Hwy. 5 south 7.4 miles from Rancho Grande, turn west: 29°41.094'/ 114°24.566'

3.2 miles west of Hwy. 5, go straight where most traffic curves left for Las Palmitas: 29°41.278'/ 114°27.639'

0.8 miles from above, park at huge boulder: 29°41.68'/ 114°28.20'

Hike to north bank of Arroyo Santa Maria to: 29°41.733'/ 114°28.175' elev. 609' (ECR-1)

Go northwest and climb out of valley, note ocotillos.

Along left side of side valley: 29°42.374'/ 114°28.566' elev. 741' (ECR-2)

On first padre built switchback up: 29°42.669'/ 114°28.937' elev. 906' (ECR-3)

On a ridge, trail continues northwest: 29°42.671'/ 114°29.425' elev. 1308' (ECR-4)

On the Camino Real: 29°42.748'/ 114°29.482' elev. 1391' (ECR-5)

Crossing ridges and little mesas: 29°43.008'/ 114°29.967' elev. 1477' (ECR-6)

Drop along side of ridge, trail narrow: 29°43.074'/ 114°30.128' elev.1610' (ECR-7)

End of today's hike just beyond this last clear sign of the old trail: 29°43.141'/ 114°30.189' elev. 1702' (ECR-8)

Junction of ECR & bulldozed road: 29°43.126'/ 114°31.753' elev.1413'

(End of bulldozed road, on canyon ridge: 29°43.033'/ 114°31.556' elev. 1,615' )

Mision Santa Maria: 29°43.891'/ 114°32.794' elev.1628'

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Here's my Mission Santa Maria road log from 2007, and note Mile 15.9 is where the Camino Real meets the road, which is the "Junction of ECR & bulldozed road" waypoint above:

ROAD LOG

0.0 Rancho Santa Ynez, take road through left gate, north of ranch.
0.9 FORK, go left/ uphill.
1.8 Deep Gully, 4WD climb out (if this scares you, go back!).
2.4 Rock pile, a road to left, go straight/ right fork.
4.7 Cement monument off to left (tracks continue past monument).
5.6 Arroyo crossing with palms.
9.9 Peninsular Divide, view of Punta Final on the gulf.
13.3 Top of the 'Widowmaker' grade.
14.4 MISION SANTA MARIA
15.4 Road enters sandy Arroyo Santa Maria, after very steep downgrade.
15.7 Turn left, out of arroyo (may be hidden by plants). Tracks ahead in arroyo end in 1/4 mile.
15.9 El Camino Real climbs to the left, up hillside. The mission trail stays out of the canyon, along the north ridge and returns to the arroyo at the east end of the canyon.
16.0 Roadbed washed out. Park and hike on to end of bulldozed grade to see petroglyphs, canyon view, Indian trail to canyon bottom.

Here is what you see at Mile 15.9 looking at the trail from the road:

El Camino Real at 29°43.126', 114°31.753' (NAD27 Mex) elev. 1,413'

NOTE: In 2010, the road was impassable about Mile 15.5 to our Toyotas due to exposed boulders (it was all sand here in 2007), so a hike to El Camino Real at the road was required.

CARGO TRAIL from Santa Maria Road

David K - 12-4-2014 at 09:51 AM

I have two photos taken where you can see the Cargo Trail from the road to the mission (which is essentially on El Camino Real)... Photos looking northward as we are driving east, about a mile east of the high point on the road (peninsular divide, which is 9.9 miles from Santa Ynez, 4.5 from the mission)...

Look for a straight line going across the photo, left to right, about midway up the photo.

About the same, but climbing a bit to the right side. See the three armed cardon cactus in the distance? The trail is just behind it, near the top of it. just past the cardon, it drops down a bit, then climbs gradually as it heads towards Gonzaga Bay.

The Geocache placed on the Cargo Trail, or near it, in 2001 by Baja Bucko: http://www.geocaching.com/geocache/GC8C7_no-wheels-need-appl...

[Edited on 12-4-2014 by David K]

TMW - 12-4-2014 at 11:17 AM

["DK wrote: Also note that the Las Palmitas access road was reported washed out where it drops down about 3 miles from Hwy. 5. Using the arroyo from the new bridge may be the only way now?"]

The normal road down to the arroyo is washed out with very deep ruts where a 4 wheeler can't use it. However there is another road down just to east. It is deep sand so a regular truck or SUV can't make it back up. A motorcycle, ATV or sand rail could. In April we had to follow the arroyo east to the hwy 5 construction area and find a place to get up on hwy 5.

David K - 12-4-2014 at 12:14 PM

Thanks for that confirm TW. It is a wild piece of Baja, even though a paved highway is only a few miles away now!

willardguy - 12-4-2014 at 12:21 PM

problem is, as of last week the whole area is fenced off with 4 strand barbed wire. if you want in don't forget the side cutters!
yup, its the new baja.

David K - 12-4-2014 at 12:27 PM

Well, since Las Palmitas is a water source and a cattle trough is there, the rancher will need to get to it from somewhere off the highway...

PaulW - 12-4-2014 at 05:33 PM

The road builders don't care. They just build fences. They evne fenced existing roads and left a steep bank so the locals just cut the fence and drive down the bank till they get to the road. What a pain.

David K - 12-4-2014 at 06:04 PM

The road builders don't care. They just build fences. They evne fenced existing roads and left a steep bank so the locals just cut the fence and drive down the bank till they get to the road. What a pain.

Seriously, what's the deal with that anyway!!??

chuckie - 12-4-2014 at 06:16 PM

Its likely their ground, and they are weary of having people leave broken Tacomas all over....Seriously David, What right do any of us to complain about what the Mexican people do with their land?

David K - 12-4-2014 at 06:55 PM

Quote: Originally posted by chuckie

Its likely their ground, and they are weary of having people leave broken Tacomas all over....Seriously David, What right do any of us to complain about what the Mexican people do with their land?

I just asked, wasn't complaining... but seriously, it isn't the Mexican people of the region deciding this, since their roads are being cut off by the new fence they are putting up... The same is true north of San Felipe. I get that they may want to keep range cattle off the pavement... but where there's an established road, it will just mean the "Mexican people" cutting the barb wire at some point.

Tioloco - 12-4-2014 at 07:54 PM

Just to add to the mix....
A well set up Rubicon Jeep makes the mission trail look like the I-5.
All due respect to the Yota guys, but that ain't extreme. A-trac....whatever!

TMW - 12-4-2014 at 08:07 PM

I'm still waiting for a Jeep to do the Turquesa mine road. Short wheel base should make it easy.

David K - 12-4-2014 at 10:07 PM

Just to add to the mix....
A well set up Rubicon Jeep makes the mission trail look like the I-5.
All due respect to the Yota guys, but that ain't extreme. A-trac....whatever!

No doubt, as Ken Cooke was in there! On my 2003 trip, there was a Jeep Wrangler with us, no locker needed to get up the Widowmaker for him.

Don't get me wrong, I am a Jeep fan... a former Jeep owner... they are made for off road... they just are not reliable or trustworthy. Although, you can get one and have no problems... just as likely as getting a Toyota that is a lemon.

A-TRAC makes the Tacoma (or any Toyota with it) a tractor on steep, rocky, rutted trails. I have never gotten stuck in my 2010... I have temporarily in my other two Tacomas.

David K - 12-5-2014 at 07:31 AM

I'm still waiting for a Jeep to do the Turquesa mine road. Short wheel base should make it easy.

The La Turquesa Grade (XR RIDE UP, COCO's SHORTCUT) as seen from the turquoise mine.

Like this Land Rover did?

"Come on Roy, you can do it!!"

The SquareCircle Does!!

4x4abc - 12-5-2014 at 07:52 AM

I'm still waiting for a Jeep to do the Turquesa mine road. Short wheel base should make it easy.

we did the Turquesa mine road earlier this year - Jeep, Mercedes, Toyota. The Jeep (locked up) had the most trouble to climb the very steep bottom of the hill grade. Long wheel base definitely an advantage there.

http://carlosnpainter.smugmug.com/Events/Manly-Men-Baja-2014...

If you ever wanted to drive the Turquesa mine trail - drive it now! It will soon be so badly damaged by bad drivers (like the Widowmaker) that it will become more and more difficult. The Rubicon Trail is another good example. It used to be an easy dirt road - now driven to schits, you better have 35"+ tires and 2 lockers.

It's not the well setup Jeep Rubicon that makes things possible - it's the well versed driver. Or does a Steinway grand piano make great music?

[Edited on 12-5-2014 by 4x4abc]

PaulW - 12-5-2014 at 10:11 AM

Curious discussion. I have lived in SW CO for many years and have never seen a Tacoma on the trails. No reason why they cannot. Never seen one at the Farmington or Aztec play area. However there are some Tacoma built rock crawlers in the area. What I have is a built 06 TJUR and it has never been back to the dealer. It did have an oem issue that I resolved with an aftermarket part which solved the issue. (OPDA)
Here in San Felipe Jeeps are about 95% of all off road rigs.

CR: No luck: The VW was much much worse than CR. The 99 Ford pickup is issue free and had tons of miles. Both Hondas were much better than CR with no issues. Mazda was close to CR with one issue. The 4Runner was much worse than CR said. Bad V6 motor. Besides it was slow and a gas hog. Not a fancy one like the new ones.
If you use CR as the only bible - be careful for bad info.
PW

wessongroup - 12-5-2014 at 11:42 AM

"It's not the well setup Jeep Rubicon that makes things possible - it's the well versed driver. Or does a Steinway grand piano make great music?"

Dittos

TMW - 12-5-2014 at 11:47 AM

My Jeep comment was meant to stir Mr. Cooke and his band of Jeepsters into action.

wessongroup - 12-5-2014 at 12:13 PM

Hey PaulW ... a little help on the 06 TJUR

Just Googled it ... and came back with this ..

Not much on speed, but, would agree with the climbing ability :biggrin:

... and "tire air pressure" wouldn't be a real concern :biggrin:

[Edited on 12-5-2014 by wessongroup]

4x4abc - 12-5-2014 at 12:15 PM

when a Toyota shows up during a Jeep event

http://youtu.be/TBXua_NKg74

PaulW - 12-5-2014 at 03:18 PM

Hey PaulW ... a little help on the 06 TJUR
= Jeep Wranler TJ Unlimited Rubicon in Jeep talk

wessongroup - 12-5-2014 at 08:52 PM

Thanks ... just looked at them on youtube ... pretty good rock crawlers

Still waiting for reports on these ...

[Edited on 12-6-2014 by wessongroup]

Tioloco - 12-5-2014 at 09:22 PM

DK-
Your love affair with the Tacoma makes me wonder about the condition of its tail pipe.... Just kidding! But really, never been stuck? I think you ought to try a little more extreme terrain before drooling over your vehicles amazing ability. Stock Tacomas are NOT impressive offroad, nor does their reliability seem above normal when owners are honest about their vehicles issues.

David K - 12-6-2014 at 08:55 AM

I'm still waiting for a Jeep to do the Turquesa mine road. Short wheel base should make it easy.

Great photos of you guys going up the Turquesa Grade! Looks like some of the trail markers put up by TW and The Squarecircle are still there?

David K - 12-6-2014 at 09:12 AM

DK-
Your love affair with the Tacoma makes me wonder about the condition of its tail pipe.... Just kidding! But really, never been stuck? I think you ought to try a little more extreme terrain before drooling over your vehicles amazing ability. Stock Tacomas are NOT impressive offroad, nor does their reliability seem above normal when owners are honest about their vehicles issues.

I try and get my Tacoma stuck and do the near-impossible, but my years of four wheeling, correct air pressure, and the fantastic A-TRAC system is really so impressive that the truck is a tractor, and only rock size in the stock set up will limit where it will go.

I was steered to Tacoma by the reviews here on the Baja Internet forums back in 2000... primarily Neal Johns... and I have always gone with the OFF ROAD TRD 4WD Tacoma, which has the largest tires, Bilstein shocks, and a locking rear differential. Since 2009, the OFF ROAD TRD has A-TRAC, and that is like an auto locker on the front and rear axles... amazing!

My third Tacoma (a 2010) is 5 years old this month, has 70,000 miles, and has not broken down or gotten stuck. The water pump had a drip they reported at the 60,000 mile service, so that was replaced. Other than fluid changes and brake pads, nothing else to report.

The truck comes with 31" BFG Rugged Trail TA tires, and I replaced them at 20,000 miles with 32" Hankook Dynapro ATM tires, and at 50,000 miles with 32" Pep Boys (Cooper) Dakota tires.

Mods: Light bar and off road lights in front, remote rear differential breather (for deep water fording, like the bog at Mission Santa Maria).

Nothing is perfect, but it's hard to find problems on a Tacoma.

What could be better? The rear suspension could be beefier. I added air bags to the 2005 and that solved the bottoming out. My 2010 is better, but at some point I may add the Ride Rite air bags to it.

4x4abc - 12-6-2014 at 10:34 AM

I have not seen any impressive 4x4 ever - and i have been in that business since 1986. I have seen some really good ones and a lot of lousy vehicles.
But I have seen a number of impressive drivers, making impossible stuff look easy. And they were not necessarily driving any of the better 4x4.
At the moment no other vehicle matches Toyota quality.

Tioloco - 12-6-2014 at 10:36 AM

4x4abc
Many of us use and abuse our vehicles off road.
Toyota isn't the only game around. Being objective is difficult for some, I guess.

4x4abc - 12-6-2014 at 11:38 AM

4x4abc
Many of us use and abuse our vehicles off road.
Toyota isn't the only game around. Being objective is difficult for some, I guess.

abusing your vehicle off-road means you are abusing nature

nobody here stated that Toyota was the only game around, but it is the most solid.

And yes, being objective is difficult. You'll get better.

Tioloco - 12-6-2014 at 11:57 AM

4x4abc-
Hugging trees is harmful to your ability to reason. I hope you are able to loosen your grip on the tree and restore your natural blood flow.

elgatoloco - 12-6-2014 at 12:23 PM

That rig would be a good one for when you get stuck in the outback. No worry about going hungry. :saint:

Hey PaulW ... a little help on the 06 TJUR

Just Googled it ... and came back with this ..

Not much on speed, but, would agree with the climbing ability :biggrin:

... and "tire air pressure" wouldn't be a real concern :biggrin:

[Edited on 12-5-2014 by wessongroup]

Tioloco - 12-6-2014 at 12:25 PM

Could try dog sledding Baja on a skateboard....

wessongroup - 12-6-2014 at 02:25 PM

Thanks for the ride ... some really tough road in a few of those pic's

Ken Cooke - 12-6-2014 at 04:00 PM

My Jeep comment was meant to stir Mr. Cooke and his band of Jeepsters into action.

Jeepers??

Mission Santa Maria 2006

[/URL]

David K - 12-6-2014 at 11:57 PM

About the same area in 2010:

Nomads Neal Johns, CG, and edm1

Neal Johns

edm1 (Art) was indeed the biggest surprise and the best off road driver any of know... driving his 'motorhome' to the mission!

wessongroup - 12-7-2014 at 01:01 AM

Yeah, that is and/or was some set up for going places ... did he sell it

David K - 12-7-2014 at 09:55 AM

Yeah, that is and/or was some set up for going places ... did he sell it

Yes, Art did and built this one, with four wheel drive and front and back ARB lockers...

July 2011, on the road to Shell Island.

MMc - 12-7-2014 at 11:18 AM

Stay tuned. This has not been about tires for a couple of pages. There are so many good tires on the market, most the good ones are about the same price. 200+ There is a Goodyear with kelvar that nobodys is talking about but it's real money.
http://www.goodyear.com/en-US/tires/wrangler-mtr-kevlar

TMW - 12-7-2014 at 01:04 PM

From everything that has been reported the new BFG AT/KO2 tires are better than the old one. So if you like BFG tires this one is for you.

I'm testing a set of ProComp Xtremes on my Tacoma. Couldn't wait any longer for the KO2 tires. I've only been to Death Valley once with them on. In the dirt only on Hunter Mtn, Hidden Valley Rd and Racetrack Valley Rd. No problems.

[Edited on 12-7-2014 by TMW]

4x4abc - 12-7-2014 at 01:59 PM

Quote: Originally posted by MMc

Stay tuned. This has not been about tires for a couple of pages. There are so many good tires on the market, most the good ones are about the same price. 200+ There is a Goodyear with kelvar that nobodys is talking about but it's real money.
http://www.goodyear.com/en-US/tires/wrangler-mtr-kevlar

the MTR is the only Goodyear tire for off-road worth considering. I have run them side by side with BFG MT for many many years. The BFG tires last 2 years longer than the MTR in equal conditions

BajaRat - 12-7-2014 at 02:11 PM