BajaNomad

Fidecomiso - whats involved how long does it take

wetto - 1-25-2015 at 02:09 PM

I am considering purchasing a titled property in the Mulege area of BCS.
I understand I need a Fidecomiso to go along with this purchase.

What is the procedure, what paperwork will I need, how long should this take to accomplish.

Any suggestions on "agents" that may be needed to smooth this request.

will be staying in Mulege Feb 1st to 5th.

bajajudy - 1-25-2015 at 02:22 PM

Fidecomiso is the trust that the bank holds for you for your property. So you need a bank first. They will tell you exactly what you need.

wetto - 1-25-2015 at 02:49 PM

Is there more than one bank in Mulege to choose from?
What might it cost to establish and then, yearly fees?

Thanks

DianaT - 1-25-2015 at 03:01 PM

Find a Notario --- you need one for all the paperwork. Not all banks handle fidecomisos, but the notario will know and a good one will direct you toward one that is a bit cheaper. Our's was a few years back, but it cost a few thousand dollars, in 2007, but I know that the overall cost has gone up. It is something some people forget to tell one when they buy a piece of property. The buying costs are expensive!

Our annual fee went up every year and last year it was approx. $430.00 dollars. Oh, and when we sold, the buyer obtained a new Fideocamiso and we had to pay a couple of thousand dollars to end our's.

Our set up time was about 4 months which was considered quick fast.

Good luck and enjoy your purchase!

On edit --- there are also agents who will handle everything -- talk to others in Mulege and get one you can trust.





[Edited on 1-25-2015 by DianaT]

CortezBlue - 1-25-2015 at 03:06 PM

Yes, deal with a reputable notario
Also make sure the value is what you are paying and not what they say it appraises for. If not you will pay taxes on the profit from what the documents describe

Yes they go up, however mine shows EVA at 16% which went up from last year by 6%

DianaT - 1-25-2015 at 03:11 PM

Quote: Originally posted by CortezBlue  
Yes, deal with a reputable notario
Also make sure the value is what you are paying and not what they say it appraises for. If not you will pay taxes on the profit from what the documents describe



GREAT advice. I have seen that happen to a few people.

In addition, be sure to get everything in writing, especially receipts for any money. Don't let anyone tell you that they like to do business on a casual friendly basis and trust them. We dealt with a person we thought we could trust so we did not get receipts and an attempt to rip us off was made as it has been done with others we know. It is just better to have it ALL in writing so there is no fuzzy math or feigned misunderstandings.





[Edited on 1-26-2015 by DianaT]

Cliffy - 1-25-2015 at 03:31 PM

Do you speak the local lingo? Can you read Spanish? Might help

wetto - 1-25-2015 at 05:48 PM

Alas...Im working on speaking Spanish, however my reading skills are a bit better. I would still not trust either in a business dealing with money involved.


Can the actual cash transaction happen in the US and then take receipts and signed docs down at a later date after the fidecomiso is established?

Keep it coming....I appreciate any insight.

anyone in Mulege I should see for a Notorio?

DianaT - 1-25-2015 at 06:00 PM

Quote: Originally posted by wetto  
Alas...Im working on speaking Spanish, however my reading skills are a bit better. I would still not trust either in a business dealing with money involved.


Can the actual cash transaction happen in the US and then take receipts and signed docs down at a later date after the fidecomiso is established?

Keep it coming....I appreciate any insight.

anyone in Mulege I should see for a Notorio?


Since we bought from a Mexican, we wired money to his account and we actually wired the money before the fideo was complete.

When we sold, since we were both US citizens, money was wired into our account in the US. We first had a deposit and then the final amount was wired right before the closing. Some people chose to be there at the closing, but we let our agent be there with our power of attorney/

There are some documents you can sign and Fedex down, and others you can e-mail, but some you cannot.

Both buying and selling we signed a power of attorney over to our agent. When we bought, we did that in the US, but it was a giant hassle --- signature by a notary, confirmation from the county that the notary was for real and the official document from the State of California --- I forget the name of that---big fancy gold seals. Then we sent it Fedex to La Paz.

Selling, we signed the power of attorney while we were in Mexico and that was a lot easier.

The agent we and several others have used is based in La Paz, but works all over. Alonso Lopez and I think the current e-mail he is using is alonsobaja@gmail.com.

For the most part, he is one I trust and he will get the job done. Unlike the outrageous commissions some want to charge, his fees are quite reasonable.

Spanish legal documents are not easy to read even for a native speaker.


BTW-- Alonso also took care of all the papers the seller needed provide like proof of taxes being paid, title, etc.,





[Edited on 1-26-2015 by DianaT]

wetto - 1-26-2015 at 09:03 AM

Thanks to all and Shari's u2u too!

This is a good start. Recommendations are noted.

Lee

DianaT - 1-26-2015 at 09:17 AM

Good --- please just remember to keep EVERYTHING in writing and be very careful as to who you trust! Not everyone who seems helpful can be trusted.

[Edited on 1-26-2015 by DianaT]

rhintransit - 1-26-2015 at 09:27 AM

be sure that the bank you use is somewhat accessible. my fidecomiso was set up by y realtor, the seller's one was in Mexico City, and she chose another one, also in Mexico City, for mine. what a headache trying to get the fees paid every year. I'm paying an agent another 50 bucks just to do it. at 600 for the fide. and 16% IVA (where they add the value I don't know) it adds up. agent said it was one of the cheaper banks. I suspect it was a combination of ease of transfer and kickback to agent...

mtnpop - 1-26-2015 at 09:39 AM

Always... "DUE DILIGENCE"....
If there is already a Fideicomiso on the property you should be able to transfer it at somewhat of a reduced cost... If no then a new one is more costly..
We got caught by the you know what the first time... Looked simple,, easy peasy.... didn't happen that way... We have done mucho real estate in the states but this is not even close....
A lot of folks around Mulege use Notario #20 in Santa Rosalia... there are 2 ladies that can help,, one in Mulege, Nadia a local attorney and the other in Santa Rosalia,, Julietta,, both speak pretty good English,, The Notario does not......
Most banks will hold the trust... Bancomer, etc..... Interacconies (sp) in LaPaz also does.. Good and horror stories about all of them if you talk to many folks... Our experience with Interacconies was a total nightmare... and cost us boocoo bucks in the end... totally uncalled for in our mind..
If you buy one with a current Fideicomiso make sure it is current, and if the seller extinguishes it upon the sale you become responsible immediately.... as we were... not knowing...
We were uninformed and dumb to the process... We paid the sellers taxes, many other fees we were not aware of... until too late...
I feel that we should write a book using our details and others we have talked with over the years... Some good and some bad....
Have a good well written contract, and get all the fees in writing and translated.... so you understand... All fees can usually be wired from the US to the Notario and others... keep copies as mentioned by others.
On a good day,, 3 to 4 months depending... Lots of signing of papers also...
Here's hoping that all goes well for you, as I said "DUE DILIGENCE"
Some go like a breeze...
good luck...

BajaUtah - 1-26-2015 at 10:28 AM

Here is the list of docs I needed to get my fide done in 2013. A lot of it is specific to my location but I'd think most of it applies.

LIST OF DOCUMENTS REQUIRED TO CREATE A FIDECOMISS0 AND THE APPROXIMATE COST
1) Letter of authorization from Developer to be removed from the Major Lighthouse Trust, Fidecomisso Banorte. No Cost, take about a month to get it.
2) Payment of $555.00. us to Banorte bank to be released from the Major Trust
3) Permission from the Foreigner Secretary Office to apply for a Fidecomisso. Cost $17,038 pesos, about $ 1,420.00 us
4) four different documents to sign to the bank where the new fidecomisso will be created. I work with Scotiabank. As far cost fees goes it is in between, not the cheaper but not the most expensive. Plus documents like copy of passport ,proof of address in the states,etc.
5) Pay Scotiabank a fee for acceptance $444.00us and 1st and 2nd year $ 888.00 us
6) Pay an evaluator to appraise the property. Cost his/her fees are $3,000.00 pesos approx $250.00 us plus the registration fees of the appraisal, which cost depends on the cost of the property, around $30/45 us.
7) Certification of no lean $421.00 pesos about $35.00 us and certification of no back taxes ,$85 pesos about $ 7.00us
8) The Notary fees are according to the price paid for the lot. Because I do not know the price I can say that for up to $80,000.00 us the cost is 11,800.00 pesos which is about $983.00 us.
9) Acquisition taxes 2% of the price of the lot .Again I do not know how much you paid so you do the math $40,000 x .02 = $800
10) last but not least my fee for running around between bank, notary, land office etc. $1,000.00 us.
It takes about 6 months for the completion of all requirement .
Total $6,500 paid.

I can tell you that all of this stuff is not all that easy to generate. There a lot of signatures required from many different people and if one of those people sits on it or looses it or ignores it you are screwed. I had the help of a local and friend who pushed all the paperwork through and if not for her "take no ch1t" demeanor I'd still be trying to get this done. Sometimes a gentle hand is required and sometimes a swift kick in the balls is required. It would have been impossible for me to do this remotely and by myself.

The 6 months was pretty accurate

DianaT - 1-26-2015 at 03:09 PM

Quote: Originally posted by mtnpop  
Always... "DUE DILIGENCE"....
If there is already a Fideicomiso on the property you should be able to transfer it at somewhat of a reduced cost... If no then a new one is more costly..
We got caught by the you know what the first time... Looked simple,, easy peasy.... didn't happen that way... We have done mucho real estate in the states but this is not even close....
A lot of folks around Mulege use Notario #20 in Santa Rosalia... there are 2 ladies that can help,, one in Mulege, Nadia a local attorney and the other in Santa Rosalia,, Julietta,, both speak pretty good English,, The Notario does not......
Most banks will hold the trust... Bancomer, etc..... Interacconies (sp) in LaPaz also does.. Good and horror stories about all of them if you talk to many folks... Our experience with Interacconies was a total nightmare... and cost us boocoo bucks in the end... totally uncalled for in our mind..
If you buy one with a current Fideicomiso make sure it is current, and if the seller extinguishes it upon the sale you become responsible immediately.... as we were... not knowing...
We were uninformed and dumb to the process... We paid the sellers taxes, many other fees we were not aware of... until too late...
I feel that we should write a book using our details and others we have talked with over the years... Some good and some bad....
Have a good well written contract, and get all the fees in writing and translated.... so you understand... All fees can usually be wired from the US to the Notario and others... keep copies as mentioned by others.
On a good day,, 3 to 4 months depending... Lots of signing of papers also...
Here's hoping that all goes well for you, as I said "DUE DILIGENCE"
Some go like a breeze...
good luck...


I have heard lots of great things about Julietta from people who have used her services. But I thought I heard that she was not there anymore and was on the mainland? Maybe she was just visiting??? For informational purposes, I would like to know if she is still in Santa Rosalia?

Thanks.

MitchMan - 1-26-2015 at 04:15 PM

It is really hard and next to impossible to get people in Mexico to do what they are supposed to do when they are supposed to do it. Doesn't matter who they are, be it an attorney, an accountant, a real estate agent, bank personnel or government officials. I do not believe that I have even seen any of them actually be on time for an appointment, ever.

Here are just some examples. The property I was buying was not secured, doors to the gates to the property were not locked and the door to the house was not locked. I complained about that to the selling agent (an American laggard) who said he couldn't do anything because his Spanish speaking ability was limited. My buying agent never ever was on time to any of our appointments.

The high ranking guy at the Bank in La Paz where I had the fideicomiso prepared never did what he was supposed to do when he was supposed to do it. In fact, he lost the $1,200 USD check and paper work for a required filing. He didn't say anything, after 3 months (supposed to be completed in 1-1/2 months) I called him and then he discovered that he had misplaced everything and that I needed to give him another check and filings. No one at the bank nor any of the branches in La Paz could do anything with regard to the fideicomiso, only him. He had no regular hours, no one ever knew where he was, if he was coming in nor if and when he would get back to me.

The notario took three months to provide me my copies of the Fido and his filing of them. During the closing at the Notario's office, he couldn't give me any copies of anything as his photo copier was in disrepair. Prior to the closing, the Notario misplaced documents and delayed everything by over a month until such time as they could locate things.

At the closing, neither the selling agent nor my buying agent had the keys to get into the property. I got so dam mad I said the deal is off unless and until someone came up with the keys to get into the property.

I paid an attorney to assist in the entire process and she was specifically instructed to make sure every party to the transaction did what they were supposed to do when they were supposed to do it. She never did that, I did that as I was the only one actually following up on things.

In my opinion, the attorney, the real estate agents, and the notario would easily have lost their licenses in the USA for that kind of lax unprofessional negligence. What is accepted as normal performance in Mexico across the board would often constitute criminal negligence in the USA across the board.

Now, except for government agency type fees, I do not pay in advance for anything, particularly legal fees. If a service provider doesn't want to do business that way, I move on to someone who will and that is that. In my observation over many instances for a wide variety of things, if, in Mexico, you pay a service provider in advance for something, they immediately loose all incentive to perform.

Also, the concept of being proactive is entirely foreign to all of them, even to Mexican licensed public accountants. Accountancy is an area I have some experience with and not being proactive, not maintaining vigilance with a comprehensive, exhaustive, and ever constantly reviewed dated hit list is a crime and would lead to immediate malpractice and loss of one's license in the USA. The same goes for attorneys; they too must maintain absolute vigilance to time sensitive responsibility and action items and they do it with dated sorted action item hit lists and check lists. Not rocket science.

That's been my observation and the above is just scratching the surface of my many experiences.

[Edited on 1-26-2015 by MitchMan]

mtnpop - 1-27-2015 at 09:28 AM

When we sat down and actually went through our Fideicomiso we discovered several pages of someone else's Fideicomiso mixed in with ours... Always a new challenge to work with...
One thing to think about also,,, unless something has changed, Realtor's in Baja do not have to take a test, or go to training or get a license to open an office... Although most are probably ex realtors from the states.... but everything is done thru the Notario not a title company like we use in the states..
The Fideicomiso reminds me of the old Abstract system not title insurance like we mostly use in these parts...
Big book of papers....
It will probably cost you upwards of $1K to have someone close to facilitate the process.... maybe some are negotiable on that..
and I repeat myself,,,,,,, "DUE DILIGENCE"

MitchMan - 1-27-2015 at 10:04 AM

DUE Diligence, you're spot on, mtnpop, but you should also do your own vigorous monitoring. I have found that paying someone, (in my case, an attorney) to do the expediting, review, and monitoring doesn't work. The reason? They only operate by lax type of "management by exception" wherein they only deal with what comes to their attention on its own because of some obvious obstruction, malfunction, or visible problem. They really don't actively monitor and review things on a ongoing basis. They only deal with problems that have surfaced on their own and only if they are vigorously prompted to do so.

The lack of performance is astounding, mind blowing, egregious and most often results in costing you more time and money, one way or another.

mtnpop - 1-27-2015 at 10:15 AM

Mitchman,
Sad but so true.... Our first one went on for a year.,,, always being told that its ready, just waiting on some signatures,, etc, etc, etc,,
It got finished when we actually walked into the Notario's office and put a face to the name and the paperwork laying on a table in the backroom... took only a couple of weeks after that...
I know of many that have had better luck,,, but most were there to push the process....
Best to do the process while you are close so you can take an active approach, thumping heads so to speak.
It would be great if a gringo real estate agent would do this for his or her sale but I think most use the same attorneys or agents to do the job just like we would...

DianaT - 1-27-2015 at 11:06 AM

Quote: Originally posted by mtnpop  



One thing to think about also,,, unless something has changed, Realtor's in Baja do not have to take a test, or go to training or get a license to open an office... Although most are probably ex realtors from the states.... "DUE DILIGENCE"


There has been talk of having a license requirement for those who call themselves real estate agents; it could help as some have never done real estate anywhere and just form a corporation and bingo, call themselves a real estate agent. And many are clueless as to the process.

Quote: Originally posted by mtnpop  
Mitchman,

It would be great if a gringo real estate agent would do this for his or her sale but I think most use the same attorneys or agents to do the job just like we would...



I believe what you say is pretty accurate for some of the so called real estate agents. They make the deal, and turn everything over to someone else and do nothing after that, except collect a commission. So it is a good idea to know the person who is really doing the work.

I know there are some good agents out there and for their sake it would be good to have some kind of licensing process to maybe at least have a bottom standard.

Being there is always better --- it is easier to ignore e-mails than it is to ignore a person standing there. But, it can work not being there.

We were lucky the first time around, but when we sold, the original papers had serious errors that were caught by the buyer --- wrong names and legal descriptions. DUE DILIGENCE --- yes indeed.