BajaNomad - BCS against mining

Quote: Originally posted by mtgoat666

money makes people do terrible things

that includes all of us - and I agree

I am against gold mining too.....I have already my iphone, ipad and all the other electronics with the gold plated parts.
Let's close 'em down!

Osprey - 4-19-2015 at 06:06 PM

Windgrl, thanks so much for trying to help. Nobody else seems interested. One of the links won't open for me and the other two are advertising for the company that buys mining projects. Neither speaks to how the land was acquired. The proposal, the project has been aggressively contested and for very good reasons. I just wonder how this part of Mexico could allow these people to buy property in such a sensitive eco area and then stand back to watch them raping of the Lagunas.

windgrrl - 4-19-2015 at 06:09 PM

Greed.

Everything is for sale and we never learn the lesson.

4x4abc - 4-19-2015 at 09:37 PM

so, help me out here - what is so bad about a mine in Baja Sur?

pauldavidmena - 4-20-2015 at 06:01 AM

The locals are all for it.

http://www.extraspecialbitter.com/images/flock_the_minas.jpg

pauldavidmena - 4-20-2015 at 07:36 AM

My understanding is that this type of mining requires use of a very scarce resource: water. Here is an article I found about it. It's clearly biased, but it's tough to locate purely objective science about it.

David K - 4-20-2015 at 07:40 AM

It rains every day in the summer in those mountains, however... did you see this from the site you linked?:

"...the company proposes to construct a desalinization plant and pump water 45 km from the ocean to the mine site."

mtgoat666 - 4-20-2015 at 07:43 AM

so, help me out here - what is so bad about a mine in Baja Sur?

Standard 'Green' Answer: Because mines are operated by EVIL corporations who only want to profit from destroying the earth and killing people.

Historic Reality:
If it wasn't for mines, Baja California would not have attracted people to move there from their homes on the mainland. The mines of 100-250 years ago are tourist attractions today, which is a whole new source of income to the people of Baja California Sur. Santa Rosalia, San Antonio, El Triunfo, and other sites are not void of life from the poisons used (cyanide and mercury, etc.) Today's modern mines are not anything close to the old mining methods in 'harming' the environment, even though the earth is but temporary damaged. The earth (Nature) is FAR greater than man, and will always win.

But, that is just fact based on observations of life today in Baja California... and we know that 'some folks' never lets facts get in the way of a good emotional rant!

DK:
If the story is true, in this case it is reported that the miner is using violence to take control of land the miner has no rights to.
You don't have to be green or a fat pig to think that is wrong.

Have you ever been to an unregulated mine in the developing world? Yes, some large corporations can be evil.

chuckie - 4-20-2015 at 07:46 AM

NOT through DK's rose colored glasses, looking down from his high horse.....

MMc - 4-20-2015 at 08:01 AM

Open pit mine are pretty :lol:

Check some of them out:
https://www.google.com/search?q=anaconda+mine&tbm=isch&a...

David K - 4-20-2015 at 08:05 AM

I don't condone illegal activity or violence against land owners. I was offering an answer to Harald's question.

Please read the words I type and not add any emotional reaction into it. No high horse, no glasses... just facts.

Question to you: Are Canadians that ruthless and violent towards Mexicans...? Do you believe that? There are many Canadians who visit or live in Baja... why can't they contact their company or government and demand a halt to the criminal behavior, if true?

chuckie - 4-20-2015 at 08:15 AM

Likely for the same reason that you cant demand changes to US policy. You can demand, but to no effect....There is a process.....usually taught in Civics 101....

4x4abc - 4-20-2015 at 08:17 AM

when this particular protest started a few years back, I got mail from local friends urging me to sign up to be against that mine
- but I don't know anything about it, how can I just be against it?
mines are bad
- how is this one bad?
they pollute the environment
- but they are not even working yet
they will put poison in the ground
- aren't there regulations?
they are criminals ignoring the laws
etc etc etc

so I started informing myself about that mine and geology in BCS
reading the bible is easier
but in order to be for or against something, one has to get informed
not just listen to the preachers on either side

bottom line is that the mining operators appear on paper that they follow all rules and regulations
the protesters appear very emotional, blessed with ignorance and what's really bad, outright lying about the impact of that mine

if people lie to me, I will not listen very long - they lose all credibility

maybe those poor protesters have been breathing the air of La Paz for too long. It is home to the dirtiest power plant in all of Mexico. Inhalers are the hottest selling item in pharmacies - La Paz has the highest mortality for respiratory illnesses in the country.
Worth protesting against? Hell no - how would the affluent protesters power all their gadgets, running their AC while designing a new protest poster.

David K - 4-20-2015 at 08:20 AM

Excellent reply Harald! :light:

4x4abc - 4-20-2015 at 08:23 AM

so, if there is criminal activity - isn't the police your next resource?

danaeb - 4-20-2015 at 08:49 AM

Would you share your sources with us?

maybe those poor protesters have been breathing the air of La Paz for too long. It is home to the dirtiest power plant in all of Mexico. Inhalers are the hottest selling item in pharmacies - La Paz has the highest mortality for respiratory illnesses in the country.

4x4abc - 4-20-2015 at 10:20 AM

danaeb, ever hear of Google?

4x4abc - 4-20-2015 at 10:31 AM

I want to make one thing clear - I am not a supporter of the mining industry (or any other business). Companies in collusion with the government have too much blood on their hands.

Society is a living organism with with many competing sections. It has improved over the last few thousand years - but it is far away from fair or balanced (is that even possible in nature?).
Some societies (usually the older ones) are a bit more advanced - some are a few hundred years behind. Mexico is definitely not on the cutting edge.

Things seem like Europe 200 years ago, or the US 100 years ago.

See this and you'll get an idea:
http://www.upworthy.com/have-you-ever-heard-of-the-ludlow-ma...

Unless we want to start a revolution, we have to follow the existing pathways and laws that we currently have to advance. Otherwise all this has no more value than bar talk.

TMW - 4-20-2015 at 11:21 AM

My dad worked for Peabody coal mine in western Kentucky in the early 30s as did many of his family. The part about the company store is right on. The company paid in company script and it was only good at the company store where items were more ecpensive than in town.

David K - 4-20-2015 at 12:17 PM

Quote: Originally posted by TMW

My dad worked for Peabody coal mine in western Kentucky in the early 30s as did many of his family. The part about the company store is right on. The company paid in company script and it was only good at the company store where items were more ecpensive than in town.

Is that the case now, 85 years later? Is the economy still that depressed that people must accept script for pay?

chuckie - 4-20-2015 at 12:32 PM

No

Bajaboy - 4-20-2015 at 01:16 PM

Quote: Originally posted by TMW

Is that the case now, 85 years later? Is the economy still that depressed that people must accept script for pay?

No, thanks to government regulation!

wessongroup - 4-27-2015 at 04:06 PM

This one kept going through my mind ...

Seemed this had been gone over before ... perhaps not the same exact location, but, basically the same situation and the same responses to mining operations and/or operators ... in Baja

Quote: Originally posted by wessongroup

Quote:

Originally posted by David K
Yes... the need is for the resources and jobs.

It is Mexico, we Norteamericanos don't really want to sound like we are telling them what they can do in their country, do we? :light:

There would be no Santa Rosalia if not for the copper and the French... It already is a mine. :light:

Believe the thrust of the query was the accuracy of the (Press Release) from an entity and their stated “projections” and “research” conducted by their paid consultant.

The people of Mexico most certainly have "their" right to do anything they wish with their Country.

And I do not recall statements of anyone that the Mexican people should be denied work of any type.

The point raised, was directed towards the "press release" which was posted here on Baja Nomads

Would add I have serious doubt that the Government of Mexico will be making any decisions on this issue based on what was/is posted here.

This was merely a cursory "review" of information posted, and the apparent shortcomings of same.

Mining is and will continue, in Mexico, as one of the largest operators is found in Mexico “Grupo México”. Who is the parent of ASARCO LLC, currently in chapter 11 in the States, and has left a total of 20 superfund sites around the Nation. Which the people of the United States will be cleaning up some day.

Would just hope to see a business approach which includes all factors for the benefit of Mexican People and their Country, both short and long term.

We in the United States have a legacy of mining operations which have left serious environmental and health problems for the people of the United States to deal with.

The sharing of our knowledge and experiences I would hope could be viewed as helpful not negative and/or hurtful to the Mexican people, as that would be the intent.

This is from 2010 ...

http://forums.bajanomad.com/viewthread.php?tid=43644

Some REAL progress ... HUH :biggrin:

[Edited on 4-27-2015 by wessongroup]

monoloco - 4-27-2015 at 06:16 PM

The area of this mine has the most surface water in Baja Sur, they are planning to have pond to contain the contaminates from a cyanide leaching operation. I question the wisdom of such an operation in an area that periodically gets inundated by hurricanes that have dumped over 24" of rain in 24 hours. How can they possibly keep their leach ponds from overflowing and contaminating the surface water when we have another event like that? The ground water in that area is already highly contaminated from previous mining operations. This is the watershed that charges many of the aquifers in the cape region that provide irrigation and drinking water. Mining is a necessary industry, but I have no confidence that the corrupt government of BCS will effectively regulate this mine any better than they do anything else.

[Edited on 4-28-2015 by monoloco]

rts551 - 4-28-2015 at 07:50 AM

Quote: Originally posted by monoloco

The area of this mine has the most surface water in Baja Sur, they are planning to have pond to contain the contaminates from a cyanide leaching operation. I question the wisdom of such an operation in an area that periodically gets inundated by hurricanes that have dumped over 24" of rain in 24 hours. How can they possibly keep their leach ponds from overflowing and contaminating the surface water when we have another event like that? The ground water in that area is already highly contaminated from previous mining operations. This is the watershed that charges many of the aquifers in the cape region that provide irrigation and drinking water. Mining is a necessary industry, but I have no confidence that the corrupt government of BCS will effectively regulate this mine any better than they do anything else.

[Edited on 4-28-2015 by monoloco]

Good point indeed. Are you certain that the Canadian mine company will not 'self regulate' their activities and run a clean operation in order to preserve their ability to mine in the future?

Maybe that is the point. No one is certain. The track record fr mining industries in Mexico is not very good. Do we wait until their is another disaster and then say "we shoulda"?

4x4abc - 4-28-2015 at 08:28 AM

you can lament over mines or no mines - or where they should be (never close to your house), one thing is certain: governments/money will always have the upper hand. Don't fool yourself with democracy. The "always" rule will still apply.

Interesting though - where was the protest when places like Cabo or Todos Santos were destroyed be real estate developers? Public beaches were taken off the map in La Paz by investors?

Interesting that the Canadian/American yoga/organic crowd after leaving their dirty places NOB (places they helped to get effed up) wants to teach their hosts how to keep their place clean.

rts551 - 4-28-2015 at 09:22 AM

Maybe they learned...or maybe its the NIMBY attitude. Either way, your right, money will likely win out.

monoloco - 4-28-2015 at 09:22 AM

I'm not worried about a mine close to my house, but based on their previous track records, I worry very much about them being close to my water source. It's not just "the Canadian/American yoga/organic crowd" who is against this mine, a very high percentage of local people oppose it and the protests are being organized by Mexicans from BCS. It's true that their are residents of the San Antonio area who favor the mine for the perceived economic benefits, but that support doesn't exist among residents of BCS in general. I was in Todos Santos during one of the protests, and I would estimate that the participants were over 90% Mexican citizens.

rts551 - 4-28-2015 at 09:25 AM

One time money did not win out. The citizens fought the Mitsubishi salt industry and won when Mitsubishi wanted the worlds largest salt works between San Ignacio and Punta Abreojos. It can happen.

monoloco - 4-28-2015 at 09:28 AM

so, if there is criminal activity - isn't the police your next resource?

Not for most Mexicans. Statistically, most Mexicans don't even bother to file a police report when they are the victim of a crime because they have absolutely zero confidence in law enforcement.

wessongroup - 4-28-2015 at 02:49 PM

Perhaps this approach to "our" impact on the planet can help ... nothing thus far has ... :biggrin:

“Climate change is a defining issue of our time,” United Nations Secretary-General Ban Ki-Moon told attendees at the Vatican conference. “It is a moral issue, it is an issue of social justice, human rights and fundamental ethics.”

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2015-04-27/pope-summo...

Dittos on "enforcement" and/or Government Laws and Regulations ... Look at the BP ... Spill/Release :biggrin:

[Edited on 4-28-2015 by wessongroup]

4x4abc - 4-28-2015 at 03:41 PM

One time money did not win out. The citizens fought the Mitsubishi salt industry and won when Mitsubishi wanted the worlds largest salt works between San Ignacio and Punta Abreojos. It can happen.

glad you brought it up
it's a shameful example of how little you can trust green activists

the same company that runs the Guerrero Negro salt works wanted to expand operations to the area you mentioned
the citizens were looking forward to new jobs
they had no intention to fight this
but the whale kissers started a campaign to derail that project
lies and misinformation were just the right tools
the dirty, polluting, nature harming big mining operation needed to be stopped
the poor whales needed to be protected

but all the company wanted to do was evaporate water
no harm to mother nature or the whales

but by carefully selecting the word "salt mine", scaring deep holes in the ground were implied. Spilled oil and toxins included. Gigantic machines muddying the water for the whale babies. An environmental disaster.
of course none of the tree huggers informed themselves or visited the site - they just believed their (religious) leaders

thousands and thousands of activists worldwide, including Hollywood celebs, sent angry mails to Mitsubishi, one of the partners involved
organized fern fondlers worldwide wowed to never buy Mitsubishi products again

now, how can you get the facts out to an angry crowd?
have you ever tried to argue with someone who is very emotional?
someone who doesn't want to be confused by facts?
right - it doesn't work

so, like most traditional Japanese companies, saving face was more important than arguing over evaporating water - they pulled the plug
big victory for the ignorant crowd
no jobs for people who really needed them

please understand me right - I am the #1 fern fondler and tree hugger (not a member of any "save us!" organization)
and I am very religious (not a member of any "save us!" church though)
because I despise lying, manipulating organizations

mtgoat666 - 4-28-2015 at 04:07 PM

re mitsubishi and japan,...

this a country that continues whaling and does so under a charade of science.
and have you ever seen the movie "The Cove"?

anywho, it's all apples and oranges, but makes for lively discussion, eh?

some of my favorite places are protected wildernesses, protected open lands. i can't think of any former mines that i would want to visit on vacation.
the world is a better place when we preserve the natural environment.
life will continue on if we have one less mine, one less dam, one fewer road, one less housing development.

wessongroup - 4-28-2015 at 04:09 PM

Connect the "dots" ... others have ...

and that would be a LOT of people with the responsibility of providing an environment which can support an ever increasing population of humans ... with little control over same

That one could conclude that the Pope and many others are being "fooled" by science is not a valid statement ... IMHO

Military conflits since the end of WWII might be a candidate ... but, NOT science ...

Science was a reason they® banned above ground testing of nuclear weapons in the 50s ...

Even non-scientists understood the "impact" of ever increasing amounts of radiation being introduced by MAN would have on "living" organisms ...

Hopefully, this can happen again ... as it relates to other "substances" which are introduced into a closed environmental system at higher and higher levels, minute by minute, hour by hour, day by day ...

After all It's called "Spaceship Earth" for a good reason ..

Maybe they will get Mars nailed down as place to go ... :biggrin:

[Edited on 4-28-2015 by wessongroup]

chuckie - 4-28-2015 at 04:24 PM

Poor Harald....

wessongroup - 4-28-2015 at 04:34 PM

For some ... :biggrin:

David K - 4-28-2015 at 04:41 PM

One of my favorite fun movies... with the "what is Posi-Traction?" part.

rts551 - 4-28-2015 at 04:46 PM

One time money did not win out. The citizens fought the Mitsubishi salt industry and won when Mitsubishi wanted the worlds largest salt works between San Ignacio and Punta Abreojos. It can happen.

You just lost all credibility. I live in Punta Abreojos. The town that is closest to where the salt works would have been. I was there when then salt works was proposed. The jetty/Marina would ave been in front of my house. One of the leaders of the fight to keep them out was the COOP. The President of Mexico finally disapproved the project at the instance of local residents. There was very little "green" organization..what little there was, was world wide. Citizens looking forward to new obs? Give me a break..you know nothing of this town. The majority make better than 50-60K US dollars a year...some close to 100K. They do not want new jobs. They work hard to protect the jobs they have. The workers would have to have been brought in... Go to Guerrero Negro take a look at the housing there. Laborers who live in low income housing. The white collar workers live in Company owned houses that are nice. Guess who are in the majority. Before you pop-off about certain subjects. get your facts straight.

rts551 - 4-28-2015 at 04:55 PM

Wow Harald, are you my long lost brother?

I think I have the same feelings for nature and the outdoors as you, but cannot stomach the bs fed to the emotional masses who reject facts or their own eyes when the sea level is pointed out being unchanged over the past 50 years.

There could be ONE item that was anti-whale on the San Ignacio salt flat project, and that was a 5 mile long pier proposed to load the salt directly onto deep sea freighters. The greenies felt the whales were not capable of swimming around the new pier if it was in their way.

As you know salt from Guerrero Negro is barged out to Cedros Island and then transferred there onto deep sea ships. The funny part is the salt evaporation and barge port is in Scammon's Lagoon (Ojo de Liebre), and the whales don't mind one bit and continue to grow! Barging is halted during whale season, but not the evaporating of sea water to make new salt.

Just the facts David. Your another one that's guessing. read closely at the reason it was disapproved.

http://articles.latimes.com/2000/apr/23/news/mn-22581

rts551 - 4-28-2015 at 05:03 PM

Sorry for the Hijack.

rts551 - 4-28-2015 at 05:40 PM

So the 5 mile long pier wasn't a problem after all Ralph?

The one in front of my house that was not built? No one knows...It was never built. It was not the reason given by the Mexican Government and ESSO. Read the material I put up and you will see what the studies that were accomplished said.

danaeb - 4-28-2015 at 05:56 PM

It's funny (to me) to read these that people can be fooled into thinking that man has the ability to change what Nature is going to do... or to even know what Nature will do, in the future.

It's reassuring (to me) to know that people can be convinced that we have the ability to change what we are doing to Nature, now and in the future.

David K - 4-28-2015 at 06:09 PM

So the 5 mile long pier wasn't a problem after all Ralph?

I am saying that the 5 mile pier was a big deal from what I read back when this thing was alive... the green peace group said it would interfere with whale migration. Harald didn't mention that, and I thought it was a big deal breaker. I get the local co-op membership was rich enough and didn't care to add new jobs for their fellow citizens.

David K - 4-28-2015 at 06:11 PM

Quote: Originally posted by danaeb

It's funny (to me) to read these that people can be fooled into thinking that man has the ability to change what Nature is going to do... or to even know what Nature will do, in the future.

It's reassuring (to me) to know that people can be convinced that we have the ability to change what we are doing to Nature, now and in the future.

Exactly! Man can change what man does, but man cannot change what Nature does... oh he can dirty her up a bit, but Mother Nature always wins in the end!

rts551 - 4-28-2015 at 06:16 PM

So the 5 mile long pier wasn't a problem after all Ralph?

You don't get it... What fellow citizens were there to take one of the 200 jobs being created. Before you pop-off, know what you are talking about. Dumbsheet.. 99% of the towns 900 population supports the coop.

Yes some said the 5 mile pier, along with pumps, brine discharge and other things, would disrupt the whales. he locals were more concerned about the effect the pier would have on abalone and lobster. The possible pier locations all went over prime reef areas.

Read the material I put up, and it will explain it all to you. Facts remember?

4x4abc - 4-28-2015 at 06:20 PM

It's funny (to me) to read these that people can be fooled into thinking that man has the ability to change what Nature is going to do... or to even know what Nature will do, in the future.

We can reverse climate change about as easy as we can stop a volcano from erupting or halt an earthquake from shaking.

Someday maybe man might be mightier, and stop volcanoes, like on Star Trek, but no amount of sapping money from people by government will reverse the change (and we are not factually certain if it is warming or cooling, as man has not enough data, we are here for short a time, geologically speaking).

Climate is a condition we adjust to, not change. Solar activity, the earth's orbit location and axis, volcanic eruptions, plate tectonics all play a part in the change of climate.

Read Chicken Little for a comparison to the medicine shows put on by global alarmists.

love your clear mind, David!

monoloco - 4-28-2015 at 06:37 PM

Yeah, he also stepped on his pito when he claimed that it is the " Canadian/American yoga/organic crowd" who are leading the opposition to the mine in the Sierra La Laguna. Nothing can be further from the truth, although most of the foreign residents oppose the mine, the opposition to it was organized by a MEXICAN group, run by authentic MEXICANS, that has the wide spread support of the local MEXICANS who largely depend on water from the Sierra La Laguna for their livelihoods, and are not content to let a foreign corporation come in and risk contaminating it for the promise of a few jobs. Most everyone who does even the most basic research will find that the track record of mining companies in protecting the environment and cleaning up their messes, is beyond dismal. Canadian companies in particular have a very poor record of environmental safety, just look up some of the Canadian mining operations in Mexico, Chile, and Peru, it is a litany of environmental abuse and there is absolutely ZERO reason to believe that they will be anymore careful in BCS.

rts551 - 4-28-2015 at 06:37 PM

Again, we don't communicate because you like to name call. That's okay Ralph, it is what you do. I am not interested in debating a project that long ago was terminated. Spilled milk as they say...

I simply brought up the pier to let Harald know there was a possible whale harming issue (you know all the facts, etc.). It was a big reason of protest back then in the green peace stuff, all coast stuff, etc. I was just surprised you didn't know it was an issue... maybe not as big as other issues, after all?

Glad you are not interested because your lame shot at the coop was.. well lame.
There were a lot of issues.. Again check it out before mouthing off.

wessongroup - 4-28-2015 at 07:02 PM

"Solar activity, the earth's orbit location and axis, volcanic eruptions, plate tectonics all play a part in the change of climate."

Ya forgot "humans" .... they too are part of the "environment" as are the other factors which were noted above ...

The environment is ... taken as a whole, everything

It is all related ... and things change, it's the nature of evolution

Just that somethings have more immediate and far reaching impact than other factors .... like say an Impact Event :biggrin:

And yes that is one funny movie and the part where she testifies about "cars" is outstanding

Just cut that clip out of the movie ... think I will watch it ... need a yuck or two ...

[Edited on 4-29-2015 by wessongroup]

4x4abc - 4-28-2015 at 08:21 PM

why is it that we can't "talk" about things - I might be completely wrong with what I know. But throwing eggs at me won't really help a dialog.

rts551 - 4-28-2015 at 08:32 PM

why is it that we can't "talk" about things - I might be completely wrong with what I know. But throwing eggs at me won't really help a dialog.

Because Harald, you did not just talk. You emoted in a way that was sure to bring about a reaction. Look at our choice of words, taking about throwing eggs. While none of those eggs landed on me (I am not a strict whale kisser or fern fondler), your "facts" were way off base. Had your oration been less emotional...a toned down response might have ensued.

Bajaboy - 4-28-2015 at 08:41 PM

love your clear mind, David!

The two of you make a cute couple

danaeb - 4-28-2015 at 08:41 PM

Harald, I was looking for a "dialog" with you. I spend a fair amount of time in La Paz and can see the pollution from that power plant from my house. I was interested in your research. The worst pollution I have seen recently was in Manzanillo. Not only can you see it, you can smell the stench from the diesel plants, so your proclamation that the La Paz plant was the worst in Mexico had me curious, as well as your statement about inhalers.

Quote: Originally posted by danaeb

Would you share your sources with us?

And your reponse was:

danaeb, ever hear of Google?

So much for dialog.

4x4abc - 4-28-2015 at 09:18 PM

sorry for my Google comment
some of us here dig through archives and sweat over maps and present endless food for thought
most consume what we present - almost like TV
on occasion it would be great if some of you with questions start searching for answers as well

I'll dig through my computer to get you the files you need

4x4abc - 4-28-2015 at 09:24 PM

here is one for starters:
La Paz pollution

4x4abc - 4-28-2015 at 09:27 PM

main cause of death in La Paz

death in La Paz

David K - 4-28-2015 at 09:44 PM

No jab at the co-op... I met the presidente of the Abreojos co-op and others at their 'away home' in Ensenada... we had a nice visit and it was fun talking to them (as best my Spanish permitted) about the lost mission in the Sierra Santa Clara mountains. The only smart remark I thought, was yours, Ralph when you implied they were just too wealthy to want more jobs (seriously, that was a reason?). This was back in 2001 when Glenn came by and picked me up for the ride down to Ensenada for the day, he had some things to give them.

rts551 - 4-29-2015 at 06:44 AM