BajaNomad

Spanish era military button article (link added)

David K - 4-19-2015 at 08:26 PM

Cool question... will respond more later. U.S. forces used ships and occupied or did battle in port towns in the south.
Travel back then by land was likely still on El Camino Real, which is east of Laguna Chapala near Coco's Corner as it ran between Calamajue and Santa Maria and San Fernando de Velicata.

*The OP removed his post, but the article has popped back up so I grabbed the link to share here and on my Facebook Group: https://www.academia.edu/9891437/A_Military_Button_from_Baja...

[Edited on 12-5-2021 by David K]

David K - 4-20-2015 at 07:58 AM

Quote: Originally posted by Lancesf  
I wonder if the military itinerary followed the Camino Real in some parts but not in others. Here is what I was thinking.

The mission roads are the best route to use if you want to travel north and south and feel compelled to stop at all the missions, but not necessarily the best route overall. This might be especially true of the stretch between Calmajue and Santa Maria.

The route of the highway is the best route to use traveling north to south if you have wheeled vehicles, wagons/cars.

But what was the best route for people who were travelling by horse and/or mule and didn't need to stop at all the missions?





The missions were located at good water sources. El Camino Real went from water source to water source. All people and animals need water, so the missions and springs and tinajas were needed stopping points. Remember, by foot or hoof, the typical distance covered was only 12-25 miles per day, specially when traveling in groups.

The Camino Real was a main route of travel at least to the early 1900's, as documented by Arthur North in his 1910 book, 'Camp and Camino in Lower California'. The mines of the late 1800's and 1900's caused the need for more roads and eventually truck roads that began to criss-cross the peninsula.

Are you researching Mexican troop movement or American? The Mexican resistance in southern Baja California was small and traveled between Mulegé and San José del Cabo and resisted the gringo invasion well. However, the comandante/ governor at La Paz peacefully surrendered and the American flag was raised there and the population who had been ignored by Mexico City for all of their lives, welcomed the chance to be part of the United States. When we gave Baja back to Mexico at the end of the war, many in La Paz chose to relocate to Alta California.

American forces arrived by ship and was small in size.

fdt - 4-20-2015 at 12:39 PM

Quote: Originally posted by David K  
When we gave Baja back to Mexico at the end of the war


Why thanks, that was very nice of you!

David K - 4-20-2015 at 06:22 PM

That is quite a detailed article and interesting to read! Thank you for sharing it...

It seems that the button is Spanish and not Mexican, made in the 1700's?

Maybe I didn't understand the the reason for thinking it was post 1822 (Mexican period)... but regardless, it is still an interesting find.

The location was at a spring in the Arroyo Santo Dominguito. The ranch that was there in the 1960's was called Agua de Refugio (Gerhard & Gulick, 1962). It previously was called 'El Buen Paso' (Gerhard & Gulick, 1956 & 1958).

Any place with water was important in a desert... and Indians and later Spanish then Mexicans would visit or live there.


1962 Map

Today, the arroyo where Rancho Agua de Refugio was located, is just south of the paved road to Santa Rosalillita junction.

Here is a 2006 satellite image with labels added. The square area is my guess what the rancho was located.



On the 1930 map, it has both a Santo Dominguito and an Agua de Refugio, but not at the same place (arrows)...




[Edited on 10-30-2021 by David K]

David K - 4-21-2015 at 08:52 AM

Keep on researching indeed!

The Lower California Guidebook (4 editions '56/'58/'62/'67, additional printings '64/'70) is a must have for any student of Baja history, specially of conditions in the mid 1900's. However, the authors were great in researching past history at many of the sites logged in the book. Get the '62-'70 printings as they are the same, in '67 some update notes were added to the front of the book is the only difference between the 3rd and 4th editions.



Dr. Mathes was an extremely passionate lover of Baja history (I can relate to that)... However, there were some things he wrote or passed along from others that were not so correct. At least one Baja Nomad member was on his final tour of the missions he did for CAREM, and said he was non-stop info guide as they traveled along, in English and then in Spanish. The amount of writing, books, and lectures Dr. Mathes performed would be hard to beat! Here is Dr. Mathes' final book (he was kind enough to autograph it to me):



Because the rare locations of water in central Baja, that mandated any routes of travel pass through them. Any travel west, then north from San Borja would go to Agua de Refugio. Just as all travel north from San Borja would go to Tinaja de Yubay on the second day out.

Here is the route of Padre Linck in February, 1766 seeking new mission sites beyond San Borja (numbers along the route are the dates in February, 1766 from Linck's diary):



VIMBET (San José de Vimbet) was likely the water source of this discussion, Agua de Refugio. Linck would later discover Velicatá (which would become a mission in 1769 called San Fernando) and revisit Calamajué on April 12, 1766 (first discovered by Padre Consag in 1753). More on Calamajué mission here:

http://www.discoverbaja.com/2014/08/17/the-spanish-missions-...

David K - 4-21-2015 at 04:05 PM

Quote: Originally posted by Lancesf  
Plotting the 1930 map on google earth.

1930 map
http://s1378.photobucket.com/user/ElSauz/media/Chapala1930_z...

Google earth image
http://i1378.photobucket.com/albums/ah110/ElSauz/Salado_zpsf...

It looks like the spot marked as Codornices (there sure are alot of places named Codornices) today is the same place as Salado on the 1930 map. There is a road there and apparent water/cattle use.

It would be alot easier to compare the two if the images themselves were posted instead of the links. David?


Sure, here you go...





fyi, on your Photobucket page, see where it says 'SHARE LINKS' in the top right region, next to the photo? Click on the third link, called IMG. Now it is auto-copied in your mouse... just paste that IMG link here on Nomad, as I did above.

[Edited on 4-21-2015 by David K]

4x4abc - 4-21-2015 at 04:14 PM

what is the significance of the question marks on the Padre Linck map?

David K - 4-21-2015 at 04:32 PM

You will also notice a second 'Yubay' on the map. The true Yubay is the north of San Borja one.

The Burrus (Linck) map is not accurate is some respects... the location of Chapala is too far south and the locations of Yubay, Calamajué, Agua Amarga are too far north. San Ignacio (San Ignacito today) is also wrong, as it is west of San Borja... for that matter San Borja is too far west... as it is in the center of the peninsula, slightly closer to the gulf.

David K - 4-22-2015 at 12:03 AM

Good job on posting the maps!

Where did you get the Tinaja names from?

Don't put a lot of weight on any maps drawn before Howard Gulick accurately mapped all the roads he drove in the late 1940's, 1950's and early 60's.

Agua Leon was mentioned in Howard Hale's book, 'Long Walk to Muleg�' (an adventure done in 1921) as a water hole they couldn't find (using Goldbaum's map). They did come upon a construction crew building a mine road at Leon Grande (15 kilometers south of Agua Leon, they were told). Leon Grande had plenty of cool, clear water and that was quite a relief to Hale, his companion, and their mules!

The new road was an amazing bit of construction that started and ended in nowhere, in Hale's words. He gives the distance from Leon Grande to Punta Prieta as 15 + kilometers. South of the village of Punta Prieta, the road was badly un-repaired and while it once may have offered passage to wagons, it no longer did.
[the road work likely was to connect Leon Grande mines to Bahia de los Angeles for shipment of the gold.]

Here are the sites as shown on Goldbaum's map, plus Tinaja de Yubay and Laguna Chapala.



[Edited on 10-30-2021 by David K]

elbeau - 4-22-2015 at 11:50 AM

I doubt this will be much help, but the only other thing I've noted as a route near that area comes from a map from "Journey of the Flame", an historical fiction novel. It's labeled "Arrow's Flight" on the map. I've read the book but don't have it in front of me right now.

Can anybody remember what "Arrow's Flight" referenced in the book? It looks like the narrowest point from coast-to-coast on the northern peninsula.



I little ways SSE of the place where the button was found is La Angostura. Eric Ritter's comments about his archaeological work there implies that La Angostura was a well-traveled east/west corridor before and during mission times. (http://www.xaguaro.com/MemoriasCD/page3/styled-32/styled-49/...). It seems like it would be natural for Spanish-era people to travel north from La Angostura through the area where the button was found as they pushed the mission system northward. Basically the same route the road follows today.



David K - 4-22-2015 at 12:11 PM

The peninsula is so narrow, an Indian's arrow could fly across the peninsula there. :)

David K - 4-23-2015 at 10:28 PM

Punta Prieta and Laguna Chapala are easy to see, but we need a better spot for Leon Grande, I think?

Hale was told Agua Leon to Leon Grande was 15 kms (mas o menos), he then walked from Leon Grande to Punta Prieta and said it was at least 15 kms. (9+ miles), perhaps a bit more. In any case, that still puts Leon Grande closer to the halfway point between Agua Leon and Punta Prieta, than way close to one and way far from the other, yes?

The overall distance from Punta Prieta to Agua Leon is close to 30 kms (~19 miles) per Hale's book.

This is a very interesting area of study. Leon Grande was an important town for a time, and nothing much is found on it nor any roads on maps going towards it, north from Punta Prieta...??

David K - 4-24-2015 at 08:02 AM

Keep up the historical sleuthing! Here's the 1930 map of the region. Chapala is 'Laguna Seca' on the map...



The map is way off on the location of Calamajué, and it shows the arroyo from it flowing to the bay by Punta Final instead of to the 50' (Bluffs 50' to 100'). Yubay and Agua Amarga are also too far north and west. Even with some placement errors, it is a great map because it is loaded with place names... Including Agua Leon and Leon Grande, etc.



[Edited on 4-24-2015 by David K]

güéribo - 4-26-2015 at 08:24 PM

This is how he dropped his button:

LEON GRANDE on 1971 Map

David K - 4-27-2015 at 07:14 AM

Thanks to Harald's sharp eye!



Leon Grande, Punta Prieta and Desenga�o pointed out... The distance from Punta Prieta to Leon Grande measures approx. 12 miles/ 19 kms.

[Edited on 10-30-2021 by David K]

David K - 4-27-2015 at 05:06 PM

Your distance scale bar is not on the GE image, so hard to place it exactly. I spot it as 11 miles from Punta Prieta and 14 miles from Desengaño. Desengaño is easy to spot as it has the X shape airport just NE of the mine town. Can you triangulate? I will give it a whirl...

David K - 4-27-2015 at 05:34 PM

Measure Lines:
Punta Prieta to Leon Grande: 9 miles
Desenga�o to Leon Grande: 14 miles

When I looked on the sat image of where Leon Grande is on the geo map, nothing is there. So, looks like the buildings and mine at the end of the road, north from Punta Prieta is Leon Grande (?)!






----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------





[Edited on 10-30-2021 by David K]

Aqu�!

David K - 4-27-2015 at 05:41 PM

Quote: Originally posted by Lancesf  
around here?



LEON GRANDE:




[Edited on 10-30-2021 by David K]

4x4abc - 4-27-2015 at 07:31 PM

so, we have 2 options for the Leon Grande mine:



and three for Agua Leon:



the southernmost water source is my favorite - it is in Arroyo Leon
the next one north is in Arr Leoncito
the northernmost is in Arr Cordonices

[Edited on 4-28-2015 by 4x4abc]

Leon Grande on 1962 Gulick Map

David K - 4-29-2015 at 08:26 AM

The Leon Grande mine, at the end of the road north from Punta Prieta was spotted on Google Earth. Here is an overlay of the 1962 Lower California Guidebook map #7 and zoomed in, on the Google Earth map with push pins on various known sites seen from space. The extreme accuracy of Howard Gulick's hand drawn maps is amazing.



Leon Grande is 6.2 miles west from the L.A. Bay junction (Parador Punta Prieta) on a heading of 80�, as the crows fly. The road to it goes north from Punta Prieta village from the north end of the older dirt airstrip, west of Hwy. 1, just north of the village site at the end of the paved side road.

On the Gulick map, the old main road is shown, and it is exactly 1 mile west of the highway. From Punta Prieta village to Leon Grande, it is 9 miles as the crows fly, and about 10.2 auto road miles. Howard Hale guessed the distance at 15+ kilometers (9+ miles) when he walked it in 1921. I think we are good?





Line is the auto road to Leon Grande from Punta Prieta, 10.2 miles long.

[Edited on 10-30-2021 by David K]

4x4abc - 4-29-2015 at 10:25 AM

how do you do the overlay?

David K - 4-29-2015 at 02:17 PM

Quote: Originally posted by 4x4abc  
how do you do the overlay?


I ask a knowledgeable Nomad for help!!! He has been teaching me...

LOL

I am learning right now... the one above was done for me and he is exchanging emails with me now in hopes to teach this old guy a new trick!

Once I know how, I will share with you the steps... I will make it so anyone should be able to easily do it... like I have with how to set your photo uploading size... but there are still some who don't or won't.

Transparency maps over Google Earth

David K - 4-30-2015 at 04:05 PM




I will post this separately once I word it so anyone can do it...

Bryan McKenzie has been helping me do this... poor guy didn't know I would be such a problem, lol!

1) Map you want to overlay must have url (web address, not from your PC folder)... http:// etc.

2) Open Google Earth, and drop the eye view down so you are over the area, not at an angle, looking at it. have it bigger than the area of the map you want to paste over it.

3) Click on the Image Overlay+ button (along the top of the GE page, 4th to right from the yellow push pin button). Pop up appears.

4) Give the map a name then paste the map url into the pop up box, and slide then transparency adjuster from opaque to the left, somewhere between clear and the halfway point on the slider (to see through your map and onto Google Earth).

5) Click OK, and move the pop up box over to the left side so it isn't blocking your map view, but so you can still grab it.

6) There should be green alignment tools around the map and a cross in the middle. Use these to stretch or shrink your map to align it with known points on Google Earth... If not there, right click on the map name, listed on your Google Earth left side menu, and click Properties at the bottom of the box that appears. The pop up for that map appears, and the alignment green lines are around your map. If you have multiple maps, you can only click on one at a time for adjusting.

You can grab the sides or corners of the map and change its shape and size to align with the Google Earth view below it. The diamond is for tilting the map. The center cross moves the whole map.

ENJOY!

elbeau - 5-1-2015 at 07:56 AM

Quote: Originally posted by David K  

1) Map you want to overlay must have url (web address, not from your PC folder)... http:// etc.


It works fine from your PC folder too. In the overlay popup configuration window that appears, simply browse for the image file.

David K - 5-1-2015 at 08:11 AM

OK Thanks! I was just repeating the instructions passed on to me, and then it worked that way. I didn't try browsing my files... or notice an option for that.

elbeau - 5-1-2015 at 08:26 AM

The downside of doing it from an image on your own PC is that you can't save it to a KML file and share it with others because it references a file at a specific file location on your machine, so there is an advantage to referencing online images.

David K - 5-2-2015 at 08:19 AM

Is there a button expert out there that can ID these metal buttons? The diameter is about 3/4" (13/16" is about exact). Found in the desert of northern Baja California...



[Edited on 10-30-2021 by David K]

David K - 5-3-2015 at 07:56 AM

Keep the history investigation alive! If I can help with any of my old maps or books, let me know... as sharing old, out-of-print books keeps them alive!

I still hope one of us can find something more on the Pole Line Road construction in 1942!

David K - 2-11-2021 at 06:30 PM

Still seeking Leon Grande photos... anyone?

bajaric - 2-12-2021 at 01:47 PM

Hi DK,
Looking at the symbol for Leon Grande on the geological map, it seems to be several miles north of where you "triangulated" it. Especially in relation to the oddly shaped Mesas el Leoncito and the tributary drainage just south of the Mesa. The Mesa looks like a lion with 4 legs upside down biting how cool is that I wonder if that is why they called it "Big Lion"

A dirt track departs from the BOLA junction (Parador Punta Prieta) northwest, jogs north a short distance on old Hwy 1, then goes west in a straight line several miles towards the general area just south of where the map shows Leon Grande. This is the northern of the two routes Harald posted, above. I would guess Leon Grande it is out there somewhere, though not so far east as Harald's "pin".

The road is probably impassable by now, if it was abandoned in the 1920's, but it seems like a great place to explore would be great to see some photos..


[Edited on 2-12-2021 by bajaric]

David K - 2-12-2021 at 04:40 PM

Leon Grande is on the Geology map... I missed seeing it when I was doing the triangulation... Here it is pointed out, thanks to Harald:



On Google Earth you can see the road going 9 miles to it from Punta Prieta town.





[Edited on 12-5-2021 by David K]

bajaric - 3-15-2021 at 08:57 AM

I see what you did there, DK. You identified the possible location of where Hale encountered the Mexican road building crew, at their camp site where there was a spring.

The mine symbol on the geological map is several miles to the north, in a roadless area. Apparently they never finished building the road to the mine.

Thanks for posting that, I put a description of Leon Grande in my book, Exploring the Gold Districts of Baja California Norte. (Work in progress)

David K - 3-15-2021 at 04:11 PM

Hi Ric,
Exploring Baja for our computers is an easy way when we can't be there, in person.

The road on Google Earth going northwest from beautiful downtown Punta Prieta ends in 10.2 miles at Leon Grande (or a line of 9 miles as the crow flies).

Leon Grande is also about 5 miles west of the L.A. Bay junction at Hwy. 1 (Parador Punta Prieta)... just a tad south of straight west.
The name comes from the geology map but corresponds with Hale's book for distance.

Is there a reason you believe that the mine symbol and the name Leon Grande at that symbol is in error (on the geology map)?
I don't think I was identifying the road crew location, earlier?

In the book (pages 65-69) it identifies Leon Grande as the place with a spring (page 67), 15 kms (9 mi) north of Punta Prieta and ~15 kms south of Agua Leon (page 66), a difficult to spot water hole (which they missed seeing).

They mention the road built from L.A. Bay to Punta Prieta (to haul gold ore to ships on) and the road part way done north of Punta Prieta towards Leon Grande (page 67). The road was to continue several miles to the north of Leon Grande to more gold fields (page 65).

The story is a bit hard to follow as it pops back and forth mentioning the same places.

By looking at the 1918 Goldbaum map (link on VivaBaja.com), you can see the places named in the book: Lake Chapala, Agua Leon, Leon Grande, Punta Prieta, San Andres, San Miguel, Miller's Landing, Calmallí...

Even on the 1930 map, we see Laguna Seca (Chapala), Agua Leon, Leon Grande, Punta Prieta... and lots of mine symbols and oro mentioned!>>>



1930 Agua Amarga.jpg - 253kB

[Edited on 3-15-2021 by David K]

David K - 12-4-2021 at 05:38 PM

Link to the Military Button article (removed by the OP of 6 years ago): https://www.academia.edu/9891437/A_Military_Button_from_Baja...

4x4abc - 12-4-2021 at 08:43 PM

I re-read the research paper
like many other papers I have read, it is very sloppy when it comes to the location
the site is not 7km from El Rosarito - but 7.5 miles
the authors named it Rosarito Site - but it has an established name: Santo Domiguito
Linck called it Agua de Refugio
the Arroyo running through the site is not El Becerro - but Arroyo Santo Dominguito

it has a small little cemetery (not on INEGI)

super cool site


Dominguito 800.jpg - 252kB

4x4abc - 12-4-2021 at 08:58 PM

what I found in many years exploring Baja California is that it seems that all humans are drawn to the same spots for rest, camping, settling

like I find a spot that seems comfortable for the night (next to a prominent tree, next to a protective rock face) and I notice an old camp fire.
Hanging out for a while I might even find Indigenes artifacts

some years ago I noticed a spot for the night in Cañada de Enmedio (Pole Line Road). And don't laugh - I often hear voices even though I am all alone. I feel the presence of people. Even though I am all alone.
So I settle on this spot for the night.
Not only did I find arrow heads - I found US military uniform knobs.
So, not only the soldiers building/traveling the Pole Line Road approved this spot for the night - Indigenes did too.

With that in mind - of course one would find uniform knobs at Santo Dominguito. Aside from the water source, it looks inviting for a camp.

arrow head.jpg - 205kB

David K - 12-5-2021 at 07:25 AM

Glad you commented on the article, Harald.

The kilometer distance in that paper may be way off, but the map shows the location correctly, very close to the Santa Rosalillita paved road junction (Km. 38.5). This is 13.5 kms north of Rosarito (= 8.3 miles).




David K - 12-6-2021 at 09:05 AM

Quote: Originally posted by 4x4abc  
I re-read the research paper
like many other papers I have read, it is very sloppy when it comes to the location
the site is not 7km from El Rosarito - but 7.5 miles
the authors named it Rosarito Site - but it has an established name: Santo Domiguito
Linck called it Agua de Refugio
the Arroyo running through the site is not El Becerro - but Arroyo Santo Dominguito

it has a small little cemetery (not on INEGI)

super cool site




Where are these graves in relation to the highway?

4x4abc - 12-6-2021 at 09:51 AM

28°43'28.53"N, 114° 6'13.68"W

David K - 12-6-2021 at 11:03 AM

Quote: Originally posted by 4x4abc  
28°43'28.53"N, 114° 6'13.68"W


Thanks... If I get back down there, I want to have a look.

The 1956 and 1958, Lower California Guidebook, has this place, 8.5 miles north of Rosarito, named El Buen Paso (cattle ranch on Arroyo Santo Dominguito).

The 1962 Lower California Guidebook, 8.5 miles north of Rosarito, calls it Agua de Refugio. Small cattle ranch on Arroyo Santo Dominguito..

The guidebook map was also edited with the name change.

None of the early Auto Clubs guides (1951-1962) mention it.

Here is Gulick's 1962 map, close up:




Agua de Refugio 1962.jpg.png - 297kB

4x4abc - 12-6-2021 at 11:56 AM

I still remember buildings/ruins in that spot on my first trip in 1985