BajaNomad - Battery watering

Battery watering

El Jefe - 5-7-2015 at 04:13 PM

I bought one of these a few months ago;
http://www.powrparts.com/deionizersystem.aspx

It runs your house water through a filter that makes it good for filling your off grid batteries. This is a game changer. No more trips to Formula Uno to buy expensive distilled water by the gallon. And with the pistol grip you fill until it shuts off by itself. No more flashlight needed to see if you got enough in there. So easy. I just filled all my batteries with a big smile on my face.

Everyone in my little neighborhood wants one. Several have gotten them. I guess this is what the golf courses use for cart batteries. I hook mine up to the garden hose as I need to. EZ and fast.

Check it out.

Alm - 5-8-2015 at 08:05 PM

Golf courses use a garden hose right from the tap, what filters... :biggrin:

Btw, you don't have to water batteries with distilled water. Reverse Osmosis system (agua purificada that they fill garafones with) is good enough. Filters of any kind are inferior to RO.

Another alternative is to use more expensive AGM batts, they don't need watering. This is what I have, though my system is small, an equivalent of 3 golf-cart batts. Don't need more with my low loads. What people often don't realize is that you need to feed energy to batteries to prevent self-discharge even when you don't run any loads. The more batts you have, the higher is self-discharge current. You don't want to keep more batts than you really need.

[Edited on 5-9-2015 by Alm]

rts551 - 5-8-2015 at 08:25 PM

Jefe. nice product, but I can buy a lot of water for 230 dollars. 14 batteries and I use about 8 gallons per year.

Alm - 5-8-2015 at 11:42 PM

14 batteries is pretty big bank. Even then, 8 gal of agua purificada @2 peso/gal is less than 2 dollars a year.

Bob and Susan - 5-9-2015 at 06:09 AM

I use 6 gallons a month...

you CANT use purified water here...still "junky"

I like this...and I agree...golf course guys don't care...the hose is fine
the course leases carts and they are gone in 3 years anyway

I like this idea...i'll do some research

i'd like to see a report in a year
"how the batteries are holding up"

at $1000 a battery I need to be careful

Alm - 5-9-2015 at 12:15 PM

Bob and Susan,
One golf cart battery costs way less than $1,000, unless you're talking pesos. Your battery bank that needs 6 gal/month is probably bigger than a dozen of golf cart batts. It's counter-productive keeping more batts than you need. Maybe you really need that big bank or maybe you don't, depends on your situation. Many households can do with as little as 6 GC batts or 4*L16.

Also, the amount of watering depends on what you do with them. More charging, or overcharging - more water. A battery in average-good shape doesn't need to be boiled for more than 60-80 minutes after it's reached 14-something volt Absorption stage.

RO water comes same clean as distilled. Contamination is introduced later, in hoses and taps they use to fill garafones. Yes, they don't care about keeping it clean.

Filtered water will never be as clean as RO, and again, there will be a contamination added with garden hose and pistol.

rts551 - 5-9-2015 at 12:25 PM

Quote: Originally posted by Bob and Susan

I use 6 gallons a month...

you CANT use purified water here...still "junky"

I like this...and I agree...golf course guys don't care...the hose is fine
the course leases carts and they are gone in 3 years anyway

I like this idea...i'll do some research

i'd like to see a report in a year
"how the batteries are holding up"

at $1000 a battery I need to be careful

I know you guys know what you are doing and have a large system...but man, 6 gallons a month is a lot.

Alm - 5-9-2015 at 12:46 PM

Quote: Originally posted by rts551

you guys know what you are doing

Some of them do, yes

Quote: Originally posted by rts551

and have a large system

Often, yes.

Quote: Originally posted by rts551

...but man, 6 gallons a month is a lot.

I would say, for retiree homes in this area this is abnormally high. Sounds more like commercial operation, a hotel or something.

rts551 - 5-9-2015 at 01:28 PM

Quote: Originally posted by Alm

Quote: Originally posted by rts551

you guys know what you are doing

Some of them do, yes

Quote: Originally posted by rts551

and have a large system

Often, yes.

Quote: Originally posted by rts551

...but man, 6 gallons a month is a lot.

I would say, for retiree homes in this area this is abnormally high. Sounds more like commercial operation, a hotel or something.

They can explain it ...but yes. from their post at the bottom.

http://www.mulege.org/

Bob and Susan - 5-9-2015 at 02:16 PM

we have golf cart batteries...but...we use them in the golf cart

it's solar powered too...

I been given lots of BAD info in the past...
with the golf cart "they" told me I couldn't "solar power" it without spending $2000usa...wrong...$200usa and the batteries are always charged

gc.JPG - 46kB

Bob and Susan - 5-9-2015 at 02:21 PM

now for reverse osmosis water in the batteries...
I think i'll pass...

there are still minerals in reverse osmosis water
distilled water has NO minerals

here is what happens when electricity and water mix...
imagine these are your battery plates

reverse osmosis water may work for awhile but it WILL catch up to you...then...$$$replace$$$ those batteries

minerals.jpg - 35kB

Robertofox - 5-9-2015 at 05:07 PM

Hey, the vent caps work great too. I've been using them for years on US 6volt Batteries. Don't have to water as much!! I like that!! Worth a try for the money. Can't go wrong....

Robertofox - 5-9-2015 at 05:22 PM

Its the water miser vent cap. Sorry. They have 8 kinds.

Bob and Susan - 5-9-2015 at 05:22 PM

vent caps...the people here are taking them off

they make the top of the batteries kinda wet (like humidity)
and the cables corrode

I never bought them because they cost a lot and I have a lot of batteries $$$
I figured water was cheaper and i'm here all year to watch the levels

[Edited on 5-10-2015 by Bob and Susan]

Alm - 5-9-2015 at 05:40 PM

Quote: Originally posted by Bob and Susan

we have golf cart batteries...but...we use them in the golf cart

it's solar powered too...

I been given lots of BAD info in the past...
with the golf cart "they" told me I couldn't "solar power" it without spending $2000usa...wrong...$200usa and the batteries are always charged

Not necessarily "bad info", just too many variables. If you are talking about one golf cart , not a solar home - it's different from other setups here. Besides, it should be clarified what to call "charged". Often people mean "battery maintenance", like in storage, not a sustainable charging off solar. Or - topping it up after generator charged it to 90-95% already.

The cost of components today is ~$1.5 per watt. $200 will buy you a small panel about 100-120W size, and a very basic charger.

120W panel on a golf cart will charge (or keep charged) a pair of 6V batts only if you're using about 30 AH daily. So - yes, you'll get some mileage, and solar will bring it up to full on a sunny day. Provided, you are not driving it right before sunset

If the goal is daily using and charging of residential system, the rule of thumb is 1W of panel per 1 AH of the bank. This is a broad rule. In small banks the wattage should be increased to 1.5-2.0W per AH.

Ex, somebody living in a trailer - let's talk about "living", not "running a cart" - with a pair of 6V GC, total 225 AH, would need at least ~300W array with the total cost ~$400, not counting the batteries. Living on 300W would still require a lot of energy conservation, I've seen few people living on that little, but not too many.

Watering from garafones - well, I would do this in a pinch if I had to, but not too often. But there is no need. It takes very little to water it with distilled. That is - with residential solar. The bigger is the array, the less water is needed, because on solar it evaporates less than when you run a generator.

Water miser caps - I never had much luck with those, they clog and stop working.

[Edited on 5-10-2015 by Alm]

Justbozo - 5-9-2015 at 07:13 PM

Rather than speculating as to whose water is what get one of these.
I just grabbed this randomly, any brand is ok as long as it works.

You want your water to read 5ppm or less on this meter for use in batteries. The purifying process dosen't matter.

Take it from someone who has been making pure water (0-5 ppm) for high pressure and temperature boilers at the rate of 240 gallons per minute since 1970.

PS: If you have a really good ohm meter you can use that.

rts551 - 5-9-2015 at 07:24 PM

Quote: Originally posted by Justbozo

Rather than speculating as to whose water is what get one of these.
I just grabbed this randomly, any brand is ok as long as it works.

You want your water to read 5ppm or less on this meter for use in batteries. The purifying process dosen't matter.

Take it from someone who has been making pure water (0-5 ppm) for high pressure and temperature boilers at the rate of 240 gallons per minute since 1970.

PS: If you have a really good ohm meter you can use that.

Huh? forgot something I think.

Justbozo - 5-9-2015 at 08:05 PM

Oh ya...link...thanks

http://www.amazon.com/HM-Digital-TDS-EZ-Measurement-Resoluti...

monoloco - 5-9-2015 at 08:18 PM

I'm with Bob, I'd never consider putting anything besides distilled water in an expensive house battery.

Alm - 5-9-2015 at 09:49 PM

Quote: Originally posted by monoloco

I'd never consider putting anything besides distilled water in an expensive house battery.

In "expensive" one - sure

.... Golf cart batts cost about $130. Could become expensive when you have to replace several of them though. This is another reason for not keeping more batts then you have to.

Justbozo - 5-9-2015 at 09:50 PM

The wall mount DI unit is nice.

Just a couple of suggestions to give you maximum longevity and water safety.

1) The native water supply in BCS is very high in mineral content and potentially other handling introduced contaminates. I would recommend that you run the inlet water through a whole house type 5 micron carbon filter. If you have a water softener DO NOT use soft water to feed the DI. This may sound contrary but the added sodium ions will wreak havoc on the DI unit.

2) Get a refrigerator ice maker water filter (through away replacement cylinder) and install it in line between the carbon filter and the DI unit. This will polish the inlet water as good as you can before going into the DI. These two filters will give you maximum life from your DI. If you use no filters the life of the DI will easily be less than half the advertised 600 gallons. Thier estimate is probably based on 6-8 grain hardness supply water while BCS water is 20+ grains hard, three times harder, 1/3rd the life.

3) The installed indicator light is "OK" but probably isn't an on/off light. As the unit goes bad the light will gradually come on. As bright as it is in BCS you may not see the light building. The hose is convenient but the nearest replacement battery isn't. I would run the water into your battery watering can or clean storage jug and test it with the TDS meter for 0-5 ppm. Get spare disc type batteries for the TDS meter as they may be hard to come by in BCS.

4) Playing in the water will keep the kid in you alive! Water is fun!

Bob and Susan - 5-10-2015 at 07:07 AM

Quote: Originally posted by Justbozo

Take it from someone who has been making pure water (0-5 ppm) for high pressure and temperature boilers at the rate of 240 gallons per minute since 1970.

wow same job for 45 years...time to retire

you must have had some BIG pump to pump 2400 gallons a minute thru a filter to end up with 240 gallons a minute of pretty clean drinking water

what did you do with all the "bad waste water"

Justbozo - 5-10-2015 at 08:50 AM

Bob

I started in the Navy running flash type evaporators (distilled water from sea water) making about 100 gallons per hour.

I then was able to parlay that into a 35 year career with a statewide electric utility generating plants. Water production was by DI plant with 3 12" wells feeding it. The reason you don't see DI of any size in homes is to be able to regenerate the resin bed requires using strong acids and caustic in regulated flow. The waste must then be processed .

Yes I am now retired and back to the salt water.
As I motor past your place in my panga, I admire your oasis on the beach.

Alm - 5-10-2015 at 11:43 AM

Justbozo: those 3 steps confirm what I thought - the suggested deionizer in itself won't do much good. Even after all those steps it won't be as good as a distilled water, no filtered water ever will.

Not worth the trouble, since very little water is needed. Other than Bob's unspecified system with 6 gal/month, with a proper charging algorithm (i.e. not boiling them at 15V for hours) a distillate will cost less than 30 bucks a year.

Bob and Susan - 5-10-2015 at 12:05 PM

good answer justbozo...

now...you really cant live on 2 golf cart batteries
unless you live in a trailer

you shouldn't use water that has been filtered

I need electricity...tv fridg...freezer...water pumps...lights...drills...table saw...washer dryer

solar power is just battery power
solar panels just charge the batteries

if the batteries aren't "hot" they sulfate up

distilled water is $1 a gallon...its cheap to "do the right thing"

El Jefe - 5-10-2015 at 12:12 PM

I'm in the same boat as Bob. I have a large array, large batteries and run lots of stuff, a pool included as well as AC at times. So, yes, we go through about five to six gallons in a hot month. Not as much in the winter.

But it is really about convenience and trust. The "distilled" water we get from Formula Uno may or may not be pure. A neighbor tested it and found his filtered water was better. And Formula Uno are the only reliable source. They often run out. When Walmart first opened in San Jose they had pallets of Arrowhead distilled water cheap. We shatched those up! Haven't seen distilled there since. And it is a long way to town anyways.

So, the convenience of getting acceptable water out of the filter thing is worth the money I spent. It is not at all about price. We are only talking a couple hundred bucks here.

And by the way, thanks for all the great info above guys. Great to get the word from folks in the know.

[Edited on 5-10-2015 by El Jefe]

Alm - 5-10-2015 at 12:33 PM

Yes, a house takes more than 2 GC batts to live on. Still, shouldn't take a lot of water even with 10*GC.

Batteries don't need to be hot, in order to function properly or to prevent sulfating.

When they are "boiling" at +14V Absorption voltage, this doesn't really mean "hot", and they don't need to be charged at that voltage for longer than they have to. 1 or 2 hours is usually enough. Then they should go to Float voltage @13.6-13.7V (double the value for 24V system). Solar chargers do this automatically (if it doesn't, replace the charger).

To prevent sulfating, 2 conditions should be met: battery should be charged at Absorption voltage for an hour or two, and it should get to 95-98% SOC (= State of Charge), daily.

But, if solar can't get them to more than 90% and you don't want to run a generator to augment the solar charging (before solar), the you do need to boil them forcefully, performing Equalization procedure once a week or so.

And, solar panels don't "just charge the batteries". If the system is adequately sized for a given household, on an average day it will bring the batts to Abs and then to Float at midday. After this, the battery acceptance rate drops, it can't accept all the current that solar generates, so the excessive current from solar goes straight to your loads. If you have a battery monitor, you can see this by turning the loads on and off - if current to battery stays the same, then this is it.

[Edited on 5-10-2015 by Alm]

hookemup - 5-10-2015 at 12:37 PM

El Jefe
Chapetos (sp) in LB almost always has a good stock of Arrowhead distilled. They restock soon after they run out. Bought 24 gals last trip.

Justbozo - 5-10-2015 at 01:41 PM

Pure water is pure water. Period.

How it gets that way when you are the end user means nothing.

0 ppm is 0 ppm.

Boiled, electrical attraction , or membrane is no difference .

Alm - 5-10-2015 at 02:16 PM

One more thing - in case if it's been overlooked.
In places like Baja using a remote temperature sensor on your charger is a must. Without it, on a warm day you'll be really frying your batteries, losing more water and shortening their life.

Bob and Susan - 5-10-2015 at 02:57 PM

justbozo is correct 0 = 0
it doesn't matter how you get there
but anything above 0 is unacceptable

alm...all that "extra stuff" is the "bs" part
and 24v is NOT double the voltage of 12v
and 48v is NOT double 24v or 4 times 12v

you need solar panels
a breaker to turn them off
a charge controller to control the battery voltage
batteries
a breaker to turn them off
a small $3 hydrometer
and an inverter

voltage is NOT the condition of the batteries
it's ONLY an indicator
the $3 hydrometer shows the condition

that's all you need to live off solar
solar designed batteries are NOT golf cart batteries

all this amp hour "stuff" for batteries is incorrect if not at the tested temp (70f) and its a hundred here for months at a time

one more thing...in Baja you need backup parts...
just in case...they aren't here
things break

Alm - 5-10-2015 at 04:51 PM

Oh well... Bob, you are right on "some" points, to put it that way.
A little 101 here, to clear the fog.

Yes, voltage is only an indicator of battery SOC, and it depends on what "voltage" you're talking about.

Open circuit voltage of RESTED battery is a good indicator, the 2nd best after measuring specific gravity with a hydrometer.

Charging voltage - when it goes through ~14.8 peak, stays there for an hour and drops to 13.6 for the rest of the day - is called "charging set points". When battery is past the 14.8 peak, it can be anywhere between 70% and 95% SOC. These set points have little to do with "rested voltage", and they depend on the temperature (see below).

Temperature:
Charging set points are specified for default 77F. When temperature is rising above 77F, charging voltage should be adjusted lower. This is what temperature sensor is for. If you're charging it at 90F with the voltage specified for 77F, you're frying them.

24V:
Charging set points are specified either for battery bank or per 2V cell. This is how battery manuals are written. Total voltage is in direct relationship with the number of cells. If recommended Float is 2.26V per cell, then it is 13.6V for a "nominal" 12V bank and 2*13.6 for nominal 24V bank.

"Amp-hour stuff is incorrect" - What "stuff", Bob?

Amp-hours is a unit for energy in/out, or battery capacity. Battery bank size determines the solar array size. You may call it "bs", I don't think engineers care. Or you may get used to it, because this is how things are measured in the industry.

"Solar designed batteries are not golf cart batteries" - yeah, well, if you say so...
I haven't heard of batteries designed specifically for "solar" as their only use. Important requirement is that the battery should be deep cycle. Voltage of individual battery can be 12V, 6V, 2V, and capacity varies wildly. Some of the best batteries for solar are 2V. Golf cart batteries are "OK" for the price.

Off my soap box.

[Edited on 5-11-2015 by Alm]