BajaNomad

UPDATED: Saltwater intrusion on east coast (link)

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Whale-ista - 8-27-2015 at 10:00 AM

Update: I originally posted this as an FYI about research done on observed changes to sea level, by NASA and NOAA. I've now added new Information at end of this post.

If you want to skip directly to the report, the link to that article is www.scpr.org/news/2015/08/26/53992/sea-level-rise-unavoidabl...

I'm amazed it has attracted so many divergent posts and topics and taken on a life of its own. If you are curious about changes to sea level, as measured by NASA/NOAA researchers, welcome to the discussion. I hope you find it informative

Original post:

For decades, NASA and NOAA have demonstrated very solid science and technology in their various research programs. This report is unsettling, to say the least.

From the report:
Global sea levels have risen an average of 3 inches over nearly a quarter century, but not along the West Coast. NASA scientists say long-term climatic patterns have lowered sea levels along California, Oregon and Washington in recent decades, but they also warn that the region is likely to see a dramatic reversal in that trend in the next twenty years.

"Long-term natural cycles there are hiding the impact of global warming," says Josh Willis, an oceanographer at NASA's Jet Propulsion Laboratory in Pasadena. "This is a temporary thing."

Willis attributed the trend in the eastern Pacific Ocean to lower-than-normal sea surface temperatures associated with the Pacific Decadal Oscillation. The PDO is a climate pattern being tracked by NASA and the National Oceanographic and Atmospheric Administration’s Climate Prediction Center. When patches of the ocean cool, they contract; the smaller mass means lower seas.

Now NOAA says we’re entering a warming phase for the PDO. And NASA researchers say it's likely that warming seas near the West Coast will expand and rise.

"In the long run we expect sea levels to catch up to the global mean and even exceed it," Willis says. "People need to be prepared for sea level rise. It's not a question of how much, but when." Scientists attribute about a third of global sea level rise to oceans expanding as they warm. Another third of the rise comes from melting glaciers on mountains, and the final third is blamed on the loss of ice on the massive Greenland and Antarctic ice sheets.

NASA's researchers emphasized that sea level is rising, rapidly and unavoidably, for all three reasons. "It's already happening right now," says UC Irvine and JPL glaciologist Eric Rignot. "This isn't some futuristic scenario." The findings are based on data from three satellite missions conducted since 1992.

www.scpr.org/news/2015/08/26/53992/sea-level-rise-unavoidabl...

Updated 9/30/2015:
This week, many residents of the U.S. East Coast communities are witnessing flood waters rise with each high tide. These people are getting a taste of the future. Almost like being picked to try out some futuristic device for a few days — only this is messy, costly, and, if you realize it’s a taste of things to come, unnerving. Unwilling pioneers, in a way, these people are living on the front line of sea level rise and experiencing the periodic soaking that others don’t yet know, but will.

It started in some places on Saturday – salt water creeping onto roads and sidewalks, into basements and businesses. It continued under the supermoon eclipse. And over the last several days, we’ve had repeated demonstrations of the new reach of the tide – and we should expect it in places for several days to come.

Yes, this is a “king tide” – one of those instances when the moon exerts a slightly stronger tug on the tides than normal. It happens several times each year. This one even has a cool astronomical twist that you can read about here. But in certain affected places it is some of the biggest tidal flooding in memory. We should get used to it, says the latest science. With sea level rise, the highest tides are only getting higher, and the flooding they bring is only getting more frequent.

From: http://blog.ucsusa.org/sea-level-rise-and-the-march-of-king-...

[Edited on 9-30-2015 by Whale-ista]

wessongroup - 8-27-2015 at 10:12 AM

Surf's Up ... :biggrin::biggrin:

The "evidence" continues to mount ... based on scientific investigation, not on personal opinion

And this investigation is done for the benefit of the Human race .... as, we need all the help we can get

As for rain ...


TMW - 8-27-2015 at 11:31 AM

Well crap I guess I won't have ocean front property any time soon in Bako. So DK was right about the water level in the SoC.

sancho - 8-27-2015 at 11:40 AM

Who want's to believe NOAA, NASA, MIT, what do they know?
The heck with proven science.
I'm on the band wagon of the 3-4 BN's here that apparently,
are members of the home schooled thru the 8th grade and
don't vacinate their children cult


wessongroup - 8-27-2015 at 11:42 AM

Just watch out for the "dramatic reversal" ... :):)

The Central Valley may look like it did ... back in the 1600's

Might improve the Pacific Flyway and the Salmon run ...

[Edited on 8-27-2015 by wessongroup]

SFandH - 8-27-2015 at 11:50 AM

Quote: Originally posted by Whale-ista  


Scientists attribute about a third of global sea level rise to oceans expanding as they warm. Another third of the rise comes from melting glaciers on mountains, and the final third is blamed on the loss of ice on the massive Greenland and Antarctic ice sheets.




Well, interesting at least.

55steve - 8-27-2015 at 12:11 PM

Interesting that the eastern pacific actually is lower...

"Global sea levels have risen an average of 3 inches over nearly a quarter century, but not along the West Coast. NASA scientists say long-term climatic patterns have lowered sea levels along California, Oregon and Washington in recent decades, but they also warn that the region is likely to see a dramatic reversal in that trend in the next twenty years".

wessongroup - 8-27-2015 at 12:25 PM

Might be due to all the action happening in Greenland and/or the Atlantic side of things ... the Pacific is a bit larger over all

"The Atlantic Ocean covers 41,105,000 square miles, or 21% of the earth. The Atlantic Ocean is a little bigger than half as big as the Pacific Ocean. The Atlantic Ocean is between North and South America on the west and Europe and Africa on the east."

Know that a few Islander's have had to move, in the Pacific already due to rising sea levels ... maybe we've just been "lucky" so far .. :biggrin::biggrin:

Jonas Salk and others in the field of medicine would be really happy for those that don't use the vaccine's he and others developed for Polio and other diseases ... bet there are some that don't believe in "direct pressure" to stop blood flow too

Polio was a biggy when young and for more than a few others

And it's still around for those that don't get a shot

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polio_vaccine

Have fun :biggrin::biggrin:



[Edited on 8-27-2015 by wessongroup]

tripledigitken - 8-27-2015 at 12:58 PM

Quote: Originally posted by Whale-ista  
....Scientists attribute about a third of global sea level rise to oceans expanding as they warm. Another third of the rise comes from melting glaciers on mountains...

www.scpr.org/news/2015/08/26/53992/sea-level-rise-unavoidabl...


Point of reference...I'm standing next to the road looking at Bear glacier in British Columbia, Canada. Twenty five years ago I would have been on the glacier itself!



David K - 8-27-2015 at 01:57 PM

There is no question that some glaciers are melting just like there is no question the Antarctic ice pack has grown. Less here, more there... the earth is in balance it would seem?

Just like Ken's photo is proof that there is less glacier now than before, we have photographic and physical proof the sea level along Baja's east coast is not visibly different than 50-60 years ago.

The point is there is no need for panic or drama... Even if the sea level was rising, there not one thing man can do to change that. We didn't cause the sea level to be 400 feet higher, 5 million years ago, or lower 10,000 years ago. Change is normal... we just have not been alive long enough to actually see that amount of change happening.

DianaT - 8-27-2015 at 02:30 PM

Quote: Originally posted by tripledigitken  
Quote: Originally posted by Whale-ista  
....Scientists attribute about a third of global sea level rise to oceans expanding as they warm. Another third of the rise comes from melting glaciers on mountains...

www.scpr.org/news/2015/08/26/53992/sea-level-rise-unavoidabl...


Point of reference...I'm standing next to the road looking at Bear glacier in British Columbia, Canada. Twenty five years ago I would have been on the glacier itself!





We ended up going that way and loved that glacier.

Spent a good deal of time talking with locals in the Northwest Territories and the Yukon and they all talk about how climate change has been happening in their communities. The winters have not been as severe. Many expressed concern for this trend with concerns about the ice roads upon which they depend. In 9000 miles we learned a lot including that in the Whitehorse area the a study shows that the squirrels are mating 2 weeks earlier because of climate change. Oh, they were not talking about the weather for a couple of yesrs, they were talking about the trend in the climate.

They also questioned why there are so many deniers in the USA.

bajabuddha - 8-27-2015 at 02:53 PM

I just hope DK and his ilk live to have a long, healthy retirement. That is, if we don't have a nuclear winter in the meantime. Of course, they're just like what volcanoes have done to the planet for millions of years too, right? So, we couldn't blame atmospheric damage and oceanic/climate change on The Bombs, either.

Maybe in 25 years edible shoes will be in vogue. :bounce:

SFandH - 8-27-2015 at 03:14 PM

Quote: Originally posted by DianaT  

Spent a good deal of time talking with locals in the Northwest Territories and the Yukon and they all talk about how climate change has been happening in their communities...........

They also questioned why there are so many deniers in the USA.


Perhaps the effects of global warming are more obvious in higher latitudes. When the evidence becomes clearer over the next decade or two it will be really hard to deny. Now you have to believe what 95%, or something like that, of the scientists say and the majority of the people think. That's not good enough for some.

Here are some poll numbers:

61% of Americans say there is solid evidence that earth is warming.

48% say it is a major threat.

Those numbers will rise over time, with the oceans and temperature as the predictions become fact.

I predict, most probably. ;)

http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2014/09/23/most-america...


[Edited on 8-27-2015 by SFandH]

David K - 8-27-2015 at 03:27 PM

Opinions do not make something true. Science is making observations and measurements.

The sea level is nearly unchanged in our lifetime (millimeters maybe), despite all the movie actors and politicians who think it is much higher.

I have lived on the coast or very close nearly all of my life. The street I spent my first 7 years on in Del Mar (Sandy Lane) at our beach house is still just as far above the sea level as it was in 1957.

Will it the sea level change? Of course.

Does raising your taxes prevent the change?

Absolutely not.

That is the point of my posts, to counter those who would take away your freedoms over a hoax that serves only to gain them power and line their pockets. Resist Big Government!

[Edited on 8-27-2015 by David K]

SFandH - 8-27-2015 at 03:31 PM

A representative spokesman for the 39%.

Whale-ista posted a new report based upon scientific measurements.


[Edited on 8-27-2015 by SFandH]

bajabuddha - 8-27-2015 at 03:38 PM

Politicians and movie actors...... YA MEAN LIKE RONNIE RAY-GUN???

OR CHUCKIE DEAD-FINGERS HESTON ??

:lol: it's so laughable, you should be paid scale for stand-up. :lol: Gawd, what a corker !!!!


addendum,

Definition of MYOPIA:
noun

1. Ophthalmology. a condition of the eye in which parallel rays are focused in front of the retina, objects being seen distinctly only when near to the eye; nearsightedness (opposed to hyperopia ).

2. lack of foresight or discernment; obtuseness.

3. narrow-mindedness; intolerance.


[Edited on 8-27-2015 by bajabuddha]

soulpatch - 8-27-2015 at 05:28 PM

Corker.... :biggrin: I haven't heard that in awhile!

I don't even know where to begin.... I find the report credible.

chippy - 8-27-2015 at 06:02 PM

Wait a minute. I thought this whole thread was a set up? He took the bait but we never got the "Mother Nature bats last" line?

chuckie - 8-27-2015 at 06:30 PM

The part I liked best is where he said "opinions don't make something true"Unless they are his of course....

mtgoat666 - 8-27-2015 at 07:12 PM

Quote: Originally posted by David K  
Opinions do not make something true. Science is making observations and measurements.


Isn't it your opinion that climate scientists fabricate and falsify observations and measurements?

Dk, tell us the methodology, accuracy and precision of the observations and measurements you make on dirt island and sand lane in del mar. We are eager to hear!

rts551 - 8-27-2015 at 08:37 PM

Quote: Originally posted by David K  
Opinions do not make something true. Science is making observations and measurements.

The sea level is nearly unchanged in our lifetime (millimeters maybe), despite all the movie actors and politicians who think it is much higher.

I have lived on the coast or very close nearly all of my life. The street I spent my first 7 years on in Del Mar (Sandy Lane) at our beach house is still just as far above the sea level as it was in 1957.

Will it the sea level change? Of course.

Does raising your taxes prevent the change?

Absolutely not.

That is the point of my posts, to counter those who would take away your freedoms over a hoax that serves only to gain them power and line their pockets. Resist Big Government!

[Edited on 8-27-2015 by David K]


so where is the evidence this a hoax? what freedoms have you lost?

bajadogs - 8-27-2015 at 09:40 PM

My daughter was watching the news and a Florida politician was denouncing the threat of sea level change.

She said "Why do we even need scientists when politicians can give us the answers?" She laughed out loud and walked away.

I love her.

wessongroup - 8-27-2015 at 09:44 PM

Only a few inches and/or mm … well that is quite a bit when viewed from the scale which is being discussed

Total Volume occupied by all the oceans of the planet

The total volume is approximately 1.35 billion cubic kilometers

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ocean

3” equates to = 76.2 mm

The volume of water required to increase sea level in the region of the Atlantic by 76.2 mm or 3” is really quite a lot of water and/or some rather significant expansion from water temperature increases …

And here's something from God to Noah ... "How long can you tread water" ... :lol::lol:

[Edited on 8-28-2015 by wessongroup]

[Edited on 8-28-2015 by wessongroup]

LancairDriver - 8-27-2015 at 10:15 PM

It's entertaining to see all of the usual climate change geniuses rush to broadcast their latest Google dredged up statistics from their favorite "expert". Wonder how many put THEiR money where their mouth is?

bajabuddha - 8-27-2015 at 10:25 PM

Quote: Originally posted by LancairDriver  
It's entertaining to see all of the usual climate change geniuses rush to broadcast their latest Google dredged up statistics from their favorite "expert". Wonder how many put THEiR money where their mouth is?



Better than your FOOT. :P

Cisco - 8-27-2015 at 11:49 PM



"If we choose, we can live in a world of comforting illusion."

Chomsky

redhilltown - 8-28-2015 at 12:18 AM

"Like"


Quote: Originally posted by Cisco  


"If we choose, we can live in a world of comforting illusion."

Chomsky

wilderone - 8-28-2015 at 08:42 AM

Nobody on this foum will be alive when rising tides start lapping on Main Street in Miami, San Diego, Houston, Seattle, etc. Good to know, but how relevant? With parallel phenomena, our oceans will be fishless, rivers polluted, reservoirs dry, and no place to bury nuclear waste. All happening right here, right now.

chuckie - 8-28-2015 at 08:45 AM

Too True.....and sad

David K - 8-28-2015 at 08:52 AM

What I like about Star Trek, that the future is optimistic, promising, and exciting. Most other science fiction movies paint the future as dirty, hopeless, starvation, all is lost... Hunger Games, Avatar, Soylent Green, etc.

Doesn't anyone else have faith in our children and grandchildren to keep inventing and improving?

Growing up in the 1960's, if your drove to L.A., you could see the air and often it would drift down to San Diego so we had stay inside alerts. Not anymore, or very rarely! We have cleaned up pollution and it is better here in the USA than it was 50 years ago.

If big government doesn't ruin our economy any worse than it already has, there may be a better world in the future!

Whale-ista - 8-28-2015 at 09:37 AM

David-

I do believe in a brighter future. It's one reason I teach. The purpose of my post was to educate readers about some new research.

And I've seen what can happen when we invest in education, technology, research and science based programs to encourage young people to learn the skills needed to solve big problems and take on new challenges. I tell them about DARPAnet and how that lead to the internet we all use today. Most young people have no idea how this technology evolved.

I've taught information technology for 20+ years for colleges and universities. But the federal grants I used to manage to update equipment and help students stay current on software have mostly disappeared.

We have to invest in those programs to keep them effective and our students competitive with the rest of the world. That's no longer happening, at least not at the level it was at in previous decades. The same is true for many other disciplines.

So when it comes to creating a brighter Star Trek future, we need to invest in programs that train and support researchers and science, and also be willing to take action when those researchers publish findings such as these. Instead, we engage in debates to debunk the very scientists and technicians who recently landed a probe on an asteroid. Very Star Trek of them.

I'll never understand people who cheer those results, yet dispute other programs when they don't agree with them, or refuse to put money into possible solutions because they cost too much.

The moon landing wasn't cheap either, but look what long term benefits have resulted from the communication technology etc. Related to that program.

David K - 8-28-2015 at 09:52 AM

Chuckie, the water levels are fine where they have been the past 60+ years.

Whale-ista, thank you! I appreciate your work.

Maybe if the money designated for education all went to education and not administration and union perks it would make a bigger impact on our future?

DianaT - 8-28-2015 at 09:57 AM

Quote: Originally posted by David K  
What I like about Star Trek, that the future is optimistic, promising, and exciting. Most other science fiction movies paint the future as dirty, hopeless, starvation, all is lost... Hunger Games, Avatar, Soylent Green, etc.

Doesn't anyone else have faith in our children and grandchildren to keep inventing and improving?

Growing up in the 1960's, if your drove to L.A., you could see the air and often it would drift down to San Diego so we had stay inside alerts. Not anymore, or very rarely! We have cleaned up pollution and it is better here in the USA than it was 50 years ago.

If big government doesn't ruin our economy any worse than it already has, there may be a better world in the future!


Yes, we can thank government and all of the environmental regulations that forced industry to clean up their act, forced the auto industry to change, and stopped individuals from using their outdoor incinerators for the better air.

We can also thank those wacko environmental scientists that educated the public as to what the future would hold if something wasn't done.

[Edited on 8-28-2015 by DianaT]

David K - 8-28-2015 at 10:03 AM

Yes indeed... some government is good!

bajabuddha - 8-28-2015 at 10:13 AM

DK... the water levels HAVE changed in the last 20 years... groundwater levels. Just because you base your 'theories' on your personal visionary observations of your own little world and your own personal 'measurements' of levels, etc., doesn't make you a reputable source, but a 'fringe believer', and a very closed off one at that. Now you're a Trekkie too... perfect. Yes, your kid's kids will adapt and change with the mess we've left them; just some are trying to ease that already definite future problem to make their world already on that track. You quote movies (Hollywood actors, politicians) as your sources and bases of argument; your detractors quote 95% of most qualified reputable scientists, academics, and dedicated professionals as their sources.

You really are impenetrable, DK. But, your maps are really keen.

bufeo - 8-28-2015 at 10:56 AM

Quote: Originally posted by tripledigitken  

Point of reference...I'm standing next to the road looking at Bear glacier in British Columbia, Canada. Twenty five years ago I would have been on the glacier itself...


I'm not sure that twenty-five years ago you'd be standing on the glacier. Maybe thirty-five or forty.

Here are photos of the Bear River Glacier in 1973 and another in 2005.

1973
[img][/img]

2005


Allen R
On edit: Both photos were taken approximately same time of year, e.g. late summer.

[Edited on 8-28-2015 by bufeo]

Finchaser2020 - 8-28-2015 at 10:57 AM

So why is it that no one will address the fact that millions of years ago the oceans were hundreds and hundreds of feet higher than today??

What caused that??

Oh yes. Climate change.

I do not think the combustion engine caused that...

Man, just think of the money Al Gore could have made back then from the sheeple...

Should we be more responsible... sure...

But this hysteria is crazy......

bufeo - 8-28-2015 at 11:01 AM

I don't see hysteria, Finchaser. The earth's natural changes happened without man's interference, but it seems to me if we see current human interference that we can change and make the earth better (or at least not deteriorate any quicker) I don't see the harm in making those changes.

Allen R

Whale-ista - 8-28-2015 at 11:35 AM

Quote: Originally posted by Finchaser2020  
So why is it that no one will address the fact that millions of years ago the oceans were hundreds and hundreds of feet higher than today??

What caused that??

Oh yes. Climate change.

I do not think the combustion engine caused that...


Once again, from researchers at NASA re:rate of changes observed in previous cycles (as recorded/analyzed in changes in ocean sediments, tree rings, corals, glaciers etc.)

"Models predict that Earth will warm between 2 and 6 degrees Celsius in the next century. When global warming has happened at various times in the past two million years, it has taken the planet about 5,000 years to warm 5 degrees. The predicted rate of warming for the next century is at least 20 times faster. This rate of change is extremely unusual."
earthobservatory.nasa.gov/Features/GlobalWarming/page3.php

chuckie - 8-28-2015 at 11:58 AM

DK? NO the water levels are NOT fine and are not the same as they have been the past 60 years...Out here on the great plains our watertables are dropping at an amazing rate due to depletion and not enough moisture to replenish them...I am not talking centimeters but feet...Lots of wells have had to be deepened or pipes dropped to reach the water table....Scary....

LancairDriver - 8-28-2015 at 12:07 PM

Correct. Not only on the Great Plains but all over the country. A friend who raises strawberries on the Oxnard plain recently had to spend $450,000 to deepen and bring a well into current compliance. I would think we are coming to the bottom of the well very rapidly.
Quote: Originally posted by chuckie  
DK? NO the water levels are NOT fine and are not the same as they have been the past 60 years...Out here on the great plains our watertables are dropping at an amazing rate due to depletion and not enough moisture to replenish them...I am not talking centimeters but feet...Lots of wells have had to be deepened or pipes dropped to reach the water table....Scary....

bufeo - 8-28-2015 at 12:14 PM

Quote: Originally posted by LancairDriver  
Correct. Not only on the Great Plains but all over the country. A friend who raises strawberries on the Oxnard plain recently had to spend $450,000 to deepen and bring a well into current compliance. I would think we are coming to the bottom of the well very rapidly.



And I'll bet salinity is your friends new worry. Rancher friends of ours in the Santa Maria area have had to abandon two of their deep wells because the salt was ruining their crops.

Allen R
(Edited because my response was not about sea level changes.)

[Edited on 8-28-2015 by bufeo]

[Edited on 9-7-2015 by BajaNomad]

Mexitron - 8-28-2015 at 12:18 PM

Star Trek is about as socialist/communist as you can get-- a government run spaceship crewed by people who get no money, only payment is the satisfaction of bettering themselves. Free healthcare, free education.....what are you thinking David, LOL! (I'm actually a big fan but, heh, they've never quite gone in to the details of how humanity came to that kind of economy).

gnukid - 8-28-2015 at 12:31 PM

If you are concerned why not do something about it? Speak up get involved. There are visible identifiable manipulations that cause changes to the water table, rain fall, ice, and sea levels.

Why leave it up to EPA, NOAA, DARPA, DOD etc to manage and control when the result is weaponization of the atmosphere and control of the weather.

Geo-engineering of weather involves using planes to spray fine particulate and conductive matter in the sky and high frequency arrays previously known as HAARP now being replaced by Sea based x band radar.

General info (do your own research)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sea-based_X-band_Radar
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High_Frequency_Active_Auroral_...


The technology is publicly documented and provides many uses for the military.

Give the military a tool to replace the electromagnetic pulse effect of atmospheric thermonuclear devices (still considered a viable option by the military through at least 1986)

Replace the huge Extremely Low Frequency (ELF) submarine communication system operating in Michigan and Wisconsin with a new and more compact technology

Be used to replace the over-the-horizon radar system that was once planned for the current location of HAARP, with a more flexible and accurate system

Provide a way to wipe out communications over an extremely large area, while keeping the military's own communications systems working

Provide a wide area earth-penetrating tomography which, if combined with the computing abilities of EMASS and Cray computers, would make it possible to verify many parts of nuclear nonproliferation and peace agreements

Be a tool for geophysical probing to find oil, gas and mineral deposits over a large area

Be used to detect incoming low-level planes and cruise missiles, making other technologies obsolete

Control rain, ice, temperature for economic or strategic gain.

etc...

bufeo - 8-28-2015 at 12:43 PM

Quote: Originally posted by gnukid  
If you are concerned why not do something about it? Speak up get involved. ...


Many of us already are involved and have been for a long time.

Allen R

chuckie - 8-28-2015 at 12:45 PM

OK, Lets git er dun....And while we are at it, cure cancer, get the Jews and the Muslims to love each other and make my ex wives quit buggin me.....

chuckie - 8-28-2015 at 01:00 PM

As to getting involved, farmers and ranchers have been involved for a long time, changing irrigation technology, diversifying crops trying to slow down this loss. Doing real things, not touting pie in the sky stuff. And as far as "letting" the EPA manage things, we seem to have little choice....as is the fact with all the government agencies that hinder and interfere with logical process. While many of us are struggling trying to deal with this problem, we see on Colorados front range, more and more subdivisions with look at me homes and golf courses sucking up water....and more water...and more water.....

David K - 8-28-2015 at 01:18 PM

What a way to flip or spin what I say here! Sea water levels not ground water tabels in Kansas! Wow, that is quite a stretch to try and discredit a statement of actual observation. There are photos of the same palm trees, on the beach on Bahia Concepcion taken in the 1950's as can be seen today, same place, same height above sea level. Lots, homes and streets in San Diego County built just after WWII just above sea level are still there, just above sea level. Homes change, but not the lot or street.

bufeo - 8-28-2015 at 01:20 PM

Quote: Originally posted by chuckie  
OK, Lets git er dun....And while we are at it, cure cancer, get the Jews and the Muslims to love each other and make my ex wives quit buggin me.....


Well, let's see. In order presented:

Cancer http://www.forbes.com/sites/gregsatell/2015/08/27/heres-how-...

Jews and Muslims https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=481yOnMvtV8

Your ex wives....well, I don't have a clue. :?:

Allen R

chuckie - 8-28-2015 at 01:21 PM

I do ,but it aint legal....

gnukid - 8-28-2015 at 02:22 PM

If it was just about "water" or "temperature" people could migrate to locations where there is more water and cooler to the north.

But that issue is much more endemic. The Military industrial complex is a profit and control machine that can't stop. The planes you see flying overhead spitting out white lines that fade into a haze, throughout remote baja, are spraying aerosol metals particulate aluminum, barium etc. that harm the land and sea and reduce our ability to produce food and of course alter the weather and harm our bodies. It is highly damaging to the ecosystem and to ourselves.

The propaganda about man-made carbon as a driver for the global climate is pure b.s. distraction from the massive attack on our environment for economic and power benefit.

If people on this forum cared about the environment they would not be here beating up DK who is simply sharing his experience and observations, or making snide comments about wives. If people were serious they would be actively working to inform the group about the damage caused by the military weaponization of weather using chemicals that harm people globally.

chuckie - 8-28-2015 at 03:21 PM

Why should we work your agenda? What would I know about the alleged "weaponization of weather"...My comments about my ex wives are not "snide"...Your military industrial complex conspiracy? What are you going to do about it? You, not me.....Tell us please....What are you going to do about it....?????

bajacamper - 8-28-2015 at 03:26 PM

The 4 or 5 Marx brothers are at it again. Do not confuse them with facts. Another "scientific" computer model is what is needed. Just the ticket to clarify global warming issues for the geezer gallery.

bajabuddha - 8-28-2015 at 03:36 PM

It ain't the MIC that's causing all the air pollution from aircraft; there are over ONE MILLION PEOPLE in the air, flying, at any given time over the globe. There was a map recently that showed all the airways at any given time above the earth of just commercial travel; that's a lot of Co2 in itself, let alone private enterprise pumping from factories, Big Oil from refineries, and the MIC....

and Gnukid, far's ex-wives are concerned, pizz on ya if you can't take a joke; a little humor makes this hogwash a little more palatable to some of us. Lighten up, dude. I and anyone else will write what we damned well please. I know, you will too. Far's DK is concerned, he's earned everything he's received.

SFandH - 8-28-2015 at 03:39 PM

Quote: Originally posted by LancairDriver  
Correct. Not only on the Great Plains but all over the country. A friend who raises strawberries on the Oxnard plain recently had to spend $450,000 to deepen and bring a well into current compliance. I would think we are coming to the bottom of the well very rapidly.



They're drilling deep in the Central Valley to get ground water. The shallow aquifers are dry so now they're going into the deep aquifers at big expense. One news report said they're pumping up 1000 year old water. This is causing the shallow aquifers above to collapse because of lack of support beneath, forever reducing their capacities, and damaging surface structures because of ground subsidence, especially canals carrying water, which makes the water problems worse.

Many videos made by Central Valley news orgs on Youtube if you're interested.

Pray to your favorite deity for lots of rain and snow this winter.

list of rain deities

[Edited on 8-28-2015 by SFandH]

durrelllrobert - 8-28-2015 at 03:44 PM

Quote: Originally posted by gnukid  

The planes you see flying overhead spitting out white lines that fade into a haze, throughout remote baja, are spraying aerosol metals particulate aluminum, barium etc. that harm the land and sea and reduce our ability to produce food and of course alter the weather and harm our bodies. It is highly damaging to the ecosystem and to ourselves.

If people were serious they would be actively working to inform the group about the damage caused by the military weaponization of weather using chemicals that harm people globally.


Where is your link pointing to the facts you state with regard to the contrails from commercial aircraft flying over Baja (or anywhere else)?

"Jets leave white trails, or contrails, in their wakes for the same reason you can sometimes see your breath. The hot, humid exhaust from jet engines mixes with the atmosphere, which at high altitude is of much lower vapor pressure and temperature than the exhaust gas. The water vapor contained in the jet exhaust condenses and may freeze, and this mixing process forms a cloud very similar to the one your hot breath makes on a cold day.

Jet engine exhaust contains carbon dioxide, oxides of sulfur and nitrogen, unburned fuel, soot and metal particles, as well as water vapor. The soot provides condensation sites for the water vapor. Any particles present in the air provide additional sites.

Depending on a plane¿s altitude, and the temperature and humidity of the atmosphere, contrails may vary in their thickness, extent and duration. The nature and persistence of jet contrails can be used to predict the weather. A thin, short-lived contrail indicates low-humidity air at high altitude, a sign of fair weather, whereas a thick, long-lasting contrail reflects humid air at high altitudes and can be an early indicator of a storm.

The mixing gases contained in the contrail rotate with respect to the ambient air. These regions of rotating flow are called vortices. (Any sharp surface, such as the tip of a wing, can cause vortical flow in its wake if it is sufficiently large or the flow is sufficiently fast.) On occasion, these trailing vortices may interact with one another."

www.scientificamerican.com › More Science › Ask the Experts

chuckie - 8-28-2015 at 04:03 PM

OK? So what are you gonna do about it? Answer, nothing....This Sunday a bunch of farmers and ranchers will be meeting at Beechers Island, Colorado to plan the next phase of the water conservation watershed restoration program in the Republican River basin. The "Three Rivers Alliance" promotes good stewardship of water land and wildlife. No Scientific articles quoted, no conspiracies just a bunch of folks organizing work parties, donating time and tractors, working with conservationists to help the basin. Actual work will be done over the next 12 months, get that? WORK....making something happen...Sunday we will have a BBQ, drink some beer, collect pledges and once again, "git er dun"....My ex wives likely wont help....neither will the gummint, we don't ask...

LancairDriver - 8-28-2015 at 04:16 PM

Quote: Originally posted by bufeo  
Quote: Originally posted by LancairDriver  
Correct. Not only on the Great Plains but all over the country. A friend who raises strawberries on the Oxnard plain recently had to spend $450,000 to deepen and bring a well into current compliance. I would think we are coming to the bottom of the well very rapidly.



And I'll bet salinity is your friends new worry. Rancher friends of ours in the Santa Maria area have had to abandon two of their deep wells because the salt was ruining their crops.

Allen R


(Edited because my response was not about sea level changes.)

[Edited on 8-28-2015 by bufeo]


Actually seawater intrusion has been a problem in that area for a long time. Probably made worse by the close proximity to the ocean. Millions have been spent trying to divert rain water into the aquifer with limited success.



[Edited on 9-7-2015 by BajaNomad]

wessongroup - 8-28-2015 at 04:22 PM

Quote: Originally posted by chuckie  
OK, Lets git er dun....And while we are at it, cure cancer, get the Jews and the Muslims to love each other and make my ex wives quit buggin me.....


:lol::lol:

And Dittos on the "growers" ... they can't do a thing with out it and the pumping costs get pretty big with those deep wells ... not even considering "quality"

[Edited on 8-28-2015 by wessongroup]

SFandH - 8-28-2015 at 04:24 PM

Quote: Originally posted by durrelllrobert  


Where is your link pointing to the facts you state with regard to the contrails from commercial aircraft flying over Baja (or anywhere else)?


durrelllrobert, here you go.

chemtrails

LancairDriver - 8-28-2015 at 04:28 PM

Quote: Originally posted by durrelllrobert  
Quote: Originally posted by gnukid  

The planes you see flying overhead spitting out white lines that fade into a haze, throughout remote baja, are spraying aerosol metals particulate aluminum, barium etc. that harm the land and sea and reduce our ability to produce food and of course alter the weather and harm our bodies. It is highly damaging to the ecosystem and to ourselves.

If people were serious they would be actively working to inform the group about the damage caused by the military weaponization of weather using chemicals that harm people globally.


Where is your link pointing to the facts you state with regard to the contrails from commercial aircraft flying over Baja (or anywhere else)?

"Jets leave white trails, or contrails, in their wakes for the same reason you can sometimes see your breath. The hot, humid exhaust from jet engines mixes with the atmosphere, which at high altitude is of much lower vapor pressure and temperature than the exhaust gas. The water vapor contained in the jet exhaust condenses and may freeze, and this mixing process forms a cloud very similar to the one your hot breath makes on a cold day.

Jet engine exhaust contains carbon dioxide, oxides of sulfur and nitrogen, unburned fuel, soot and metal particles, as well as water vapor. The soot provides condensation sites for the water vapor. Any particles present in the air provide additional sites.

Depending on a plane¿s altitude, and the temperature and humidity of the atmosphere, contrails may vary in their thickness, extent and duration. The nature and persistence of jet contrails can be used to predict the weather. A thin, short-lived contrail indicates low-humidity air at high altitude, a sign of fair weather, whereas a thick, long-lasting contrail reflects humid air at high altitudes and can be an early indicator of a storm.

The mixing gases contained in the contrail rotate with respect to the ambient air. These regions of rotating flow are called vortices. (Any sharp surface, such as the tip of a wing, can cause vortical flow in its wake if it is sufficiently large or the flow is sufficiently fast.) On occasion, these trailing vortices may interact with one another."

www.scientificamerican.com › More Science › Ask the Experts


Here is a screenshot of air traffic around So. Cal at around 4pm today. Whatever they are putting out there is a lot of it.





image.jpg - 81kB





[Edited on 9-7-2015 by BajaNomad]

SFandH - 8-28-2015 at 04:31 PM

Quote: Originally posted by chuckie  


This Sunday a bunch of farmers and ranchers will be meeting at Beechers Island, Colorado to plan the next phase of the water conservation watershed restoration program in the Republican River basin. The "Three Rivers Alliance" promotes good stewardship of water land and wildlife. No Scientific articles quoted, no conspiracies just a bunch of folks organizing work parties, donating time and tractors, working with conservationists to help the basin.


An island in Colorado? I had to look it up.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beecher_Island

Have fun and get to work early Monday! :D

David K - 8-28-2015 at 04:34 PM

Those planes are over 5 miles long each, if shown correctly to scale on that map! Same with the wing span!! Of course if shown at true size scale each plane would be so tiny, you couldn't see it on that map.

The earth is a big big place, and we are so tiny upon it.

chuckie - 8-28-2015 at 04:55 PM

Monday I go back in the hospital...more cardiac stuff....couple days off...

elgatoloco - 8-28-2015 at 05:42 PM

Quote: Originally posted by chuckie  
Monday I go back in the hospital...more cardiac stuff....couple days off...


Get well soon! :dudette::saint:

Lee - 8-28-2015 at 06:15 PM

Quote: Originally posted by chuckie  
While many of us are struggling trying to deal with this problem, we see on Colorados front range, more and more subdivisions with look at me homes and golf courses sucking up water....and more water...and more water.....


Probably stay that way for a very long time. Colorado allocates to upper basin folks (NM, UT, WY and AZ). No water restrictions here. No apologies either.

John Lochhead, CEO, Denver Water: “We serve a quarter of the state’s population and well over a quarter of the state’s economic activity, yet we use less than two per cent of the state’s water. Agriculture accounts for roughly eighty per cent of all Colorado River water consumption.''

bajacamper - 8-28-2015 at 06:29 PM

Quote: Originally posted by chuckie  
Monday I go back in the hospital...more cardiac stuff....couple days off...



Get in, get out, get well. Best wishes.

bajacamper - 8-28-2015 at 06:45 PM

We can do without a lot of things, however agriculture is not one of them. I am not familiar with the crops grown in Colorado but in California the drought has affected all industries, Ag included. Long before the current water shortage the Ag industry has been using only the water needed to grow the crops that a lot of folks think originate at Safeway.

gnukid - 8-28-2015 at 07:22 PM


Look up. Here are links to some documents and transcripts about geo-engineering, many of which are official government docs.

http://www.geoengineeringwatch.org/documents-2/


[Edited on 8-29-2015 by gnukid]

mtgoat666 - 8-28-2015 at 07:59 PM

It says a lot about the USA's poor education system that we have so many people that believe global warming is a hoax or scam, and believe that jets are spraying chem trails as part of some sinister plot to geo-engineer the world.



[Edited on 8-29-2015 by mtgoat666]

rts551 - 8-28-2015 at 09:57 PM

There are some on this forum that do not believe in education goat. Don't worry, when they breed they provide laborers, dancers and someone to do the dishes. The rest of us can worry about science, advancement, and general well being of the population.

chuckie - 8-29-2015 at 01:15 AM

I just knew the water crisis was genetic....When will you all start the great purge?

rts551 - 8-29-2015 at 07:49 AM

No need for a purge, as stated we need them.

chuckie - 8-29-2015 at 08:21 AM

I thought that was why we had all the illegals?

bajacamper - 8-29-2015 at 08:41 AM

Highly unlikely.

gnukid - 8-29-2015 at 09:41 AM

Recently published articles note the lack of credibility in the catastrophic NASA sea level prediction report and about the current general problem with scientific method and peer review papers. The NASA prediction requires an exponential massive increase in sea level rise in the next 85 years far beyond current trend of 3mm per year. Like so many doomsday predictions, it is pure science fiction.

http://wattsupwiththat.com/2015/08/28/on-nasas-recent-sea-le...



[Edited on 8-29-2015 by gnukid]

global-mean-sea-level-1931-2013-3.jpg - 182kB

Lee - 8-29-2015 at 09:57 AM

Quote: Originally posted by David K  

That is the point of my posts, to counter those who would take away your freedoms over a hoax that serves only to gain them power and line their pockets. Resist Big Government!

[Edited on 8-27-2015 by David K]


If enough people believe the things written here, there is no hope for the future, and the kids in it.

Personally, I want to believe that the world is in a better place and has a brighter future. But I look around and think that that is not happening and things are going to get a whole lot worse before they get better.

When David writes ''Resist Big Government,'' I think he's writing ''Vote Republican!''

Isn't that correct David? Or am I wrong?

DavidT - 8-29-2015 at 11:21 AM

It was hairdressers and telephone sanitizers.

Golgan
Golgafrincham was a planet, once home to the Great Circling Poets of Arium. The descendants of these poets made up tales of impending doom about the planet. The tales varied; some said it was going to crash into the sun, or the moon was going to crash into the planet. Others said the planet was to be invaded by twelve-foot piranha bees and still others said it was in danger of being eaten by an enormous mutant star-goat.

These tales of impending doom allowed the Golgafrinchans to rid themselves of an entire useless third of their population. The story was that they would build three Ark ships. Into the A ship would go all the leaders, scientists and other high achievers. The C ship would contain all the people who made things and did things, and the B ark would hold everyone else, such as hairdressers and telephone sanitizers. They sent the B ship off first, but of course the other two-thirds of the population stayed on the planet and lived full, rich and happy lives until they were all wiped out by a virulent disease contracted from a dirty telephone.

http://hitchhikers.wikia.com/wiki/Golgafrincham

gnukid - 8-29-2015 at 11:33 AM

The 97% consensus paper on CO2 causing global warming by Cook et al. has demonstrably fallacious logic, "A trend in composition is mistaken for a trend in endorsement. Reported results are inconsistent and biased." Recent articles as well as published papers discuss the survey method and data set.

http://judithcurry.com/2015/08/27/the-conceits-of-consensus/

chuckie - 8-29-2015 at 11:45 AM

Now we're getting somewhere......at last!

Sweetwater - 8-29-2015 at 11:48 AM

Ahhhhquifers are in trouble in the developed world according to NASA, interesting that those most effected here in the USA are also the biggest deniers.....


David K - 8-29-2015 at 11:56 AM

Quote: Originally posted by Lee  
Quote: Originally posted by David K  

That is the point of my posts, to counter those who would take away your freedoms over a hoax that serves only to gain them power and line their pockets. Resist Big Government!

[Edited on 8-27-2015 by David K]


If enough people believe the things written here, there is no hope for the future, and the kids in it.

Personally, I want to believe that the world is in a better place and has a brighter future. But I look around and think that that is not happening and things are going to get a whole lot worse before they get better.

When David writes ''Resist Big Government,'' I think he's writing ''Vote Republican!''

Isn't that correct David? Or am I wrong?

Not always... vote conservative and libertarian more than Republican. Preserve the republic and obey the constitution, things the president swears an oath to uphold, but somehow ignores. America is a great nation but is at risk when those in control do not maintain the laws as given to us from the founders.

chuckie - 8-29-2015 at 11:57 AM

#17 is the one which supplies our water here. AND most of the water for Colorado golf courses and subdivisions. The statement quoted earlier from the head of Denver water is intentionally misleading. He references COLORADO RIVER water, not eastern plains Ogallala aquifer water. Going fast! Get them subdivisions built!!!!!

Sweetwater - 8-29-2015 at 12:48 PM

The aquifers are an example of Man Made Climate change. We have drained them and not allowed them to replenish. It has served our short term needs but is not sustainable and we will suffer the effects of that. We are not as small on this planet as claimed. Whether we can maintain the current population of humans in light of this is questionable. It is what it is and those who work for change in action and attitudes get my personal commendation. This is the view of our population density across the globe....you might live in one of those areas that are not densely populated but that is no longer true of the globe.....current human count is approximately 7.25 Billion.

Edit: don't forget to overlay the depleted aquifers with those denser population centers.....



[Edited on 8-29-2015 by Sweetwater]

wessongroup - 8-29-2015 at 01:29 PM

http://www.waterboards.ca.gov/centralvalley/


http://www.theflatearthsociety.org/cms/

[Edited on 8-29-2015 by wessongroup]

Lee - 8-29-2015 at 06:17 PM

Quote: Originally posted by chuckie  
#17 is the one which supplies our water here. AND most of the water for Colorado golf courses and subdivisions. The statement quoted earlier from the head of Denver water is intentionally misleading. He references COLORADO RIVER water, not eastern plains Ogallala aquifer water. Going fast! Get them subdivisions built!!!!!


You clearly do NOT have your facts straight. Look at the map again, put on your glasses this time, and check out any map from USGS. Colorado has a fraction of the Ogallala aquifer -- Colorado has a total of 4 aquifers BIGGER than the Ogallala, and besides, 8 other states draw from the Ogallala. The State of Nebraska sits on top of the Ogallala.

What's the public want: GMO corn or golf courses and subdivisions? The answer is obvious. Forgot to mention the world's BEST cannabis. Our farmers are rolling in cash.

chuckie - 8-29-2015 at 06:50 PM

I knew that.....I am sure you are right, as long as the dopers are happy, why would the rest of us care....Klearly you are from Kalifornia.....Dude....

bajabuddha - 8-29-2015 at 10:03 PM

I heard an ominous quote on this topic from a sportscaster tonight while watching a football game.... he said,

"I'm obviously the smartest man in the world, because I'm the only one on earth with this opinion, AND I KNOW I'M RIGHT."

Remind you of anyone on the board? ....besides ME.... :cool:

chuckie - 8-30-2015 at 06:16 AM

ME! ME!

ehall - 8-30-2015 at 07:51 AM



Maybe in 25 years edible shoes will be in vogue. :bounce:

[/rquote]

Now that's funny.

Mexitron - 8-30-2015 at 07:59 AM

From the LA times this morning:

http://www.latimes.com/nation/la-na-arctic-obama-20150830-st...

"This is climate change: Alaskan villagers struggle as island is chewed up by the sea. This is what climate change looks like, up close and personal.

In this town of 403 residents 83 miles above the Arctic Circle, beaches are disappearing, ice is melting, temperatures are rising, and the barrier reef Kivalina calls home gets smaller and smaller with every storm.

There is no space left to build homes for the living. The dead are now flown to the mainland so the ocean won't encroach upon their graves. Most here agree that the town should be relocated; where, when and who will pay for it are the big questions. The Army Corps of Engineers figures Kivalina will be underwater in the next decade or so.

Because the town's days on the edge of the Chukchi Sea are numbered, no money has been invested to improve residents' lives. Eighty percent of the homes do not have toilets. Most rely on homemade honey buckets — a receptacle lined with a garbage bag topped by a toilet seat..."

And more of the article in the link.

David K - 8-30-2015 at 08:36 AM

Natural erosion of coastlines is normal... cliffs fall into the sea and sand moves. Of course, climate change is normal too... The article makes it sound like something is different now, that storms never ate away at the barrier reef before this year? It's as if they think things don't change for 30 years, means they should never change???

chuckie - 8-30-2015 at 08:46 AM

Now theres a 180.....First you say nothings changing, and now you are saying they must? Maybe if you get someone to read you that article
S L O W LY it would be more clear...NAH wouldn't help....

David K - 8-30-2015 at 09:08 AM

You see chuckie, you think you know how I think, but if you really read my posts, I ALWAYS say change is normal. Most of the time we are not alive long enough to see many changes.

The sea level has NOT changed in my lifetime enough to be noticed or enough to affect anyone's life along the coast. Erosion yes, level of the sea, no.

Notice the palm trees... in 1949:




in 1952:




and again in 1953:



Same Palms about 20 years later (1971 book):



From my camera in 2012, 63 years from the first photo... still just above sea level:



I am all for real science. But when facts are twisted solely to gain control over people I think we all should be against that form of control, don't you?



[Edited on 9-19-2015 by David K]

gnukid - 8-30-2015 at 09:25 AM

In the news, EPA Climate change expert sentenced to 32 months for fraud, says lying was a 'rush'

http://www.nbcnews.com/news/other/climate-change-expert-sent...

chuckie - 8-30-2015 at 09:30 AM

I don't think I have seen those pics before could you post em yet again??? And maybe some tire tracks to spice it up a little?

Lee - 8-30-2015 at 09:33 AM

Quote: Originally posted by David K  

I am all for real science. But when facts are twisted solely to gain control over people I think we all should be against that form of control, don't you?



Ah, more ''education'' and ''enlightenment'' from David.

You keep trotting out the same tired photos showing the palm trees 20 years ago --as proof you are right. While nomads post scientific evidence from the international community, you believe your opinion is equal to their facts.

If you were truly interested in ''real science,'' you would stop promoting the Republican party line.

Tell me again: ''facts are twisted solely to gain control over people'' is an original thought. Seems like I keep hearing the clown GOP candidates spewing this garbage.

Come on David. Get off your political high horse. Your comments are laughable and lessens your credibility.

Better stick with maps, guy. Leave the politics for OT.

mtnpop - 8-30-2015 at 09:33 AM

Just a thought this morning.... we are at 8K elevation about 50 miles east of the continental divide... so our grandkids will inherit some nice close to waterfront property.... NICE......
would really help with the fire fighting effort in CA though...
also might displace some of the liberal hollywood folks to their Aspen properties ... I guess they are smarter than I gave them credit for..

Couldn't help myself this morning...

Sweetwater - 8-30-2015 at 09:36 AM

Quote: Originally posted by Lee  
Quote: Originally posted by David K  

I am all for real science. But when facts are twisted solely to gain control over people I think we all should be against that form of control, don't you?



Ah, more ''education'' and ''enlightenment'' from David.

You keep trotting out the same tired photos showing the palm trees 20 years ago --as proof you are right. While nomads post scientific evidence from the international community, you believe your opinion is equal to their facts.

If you were truly interested in ''real science,'' you would stop promoting the Republican party line.

Tell me again: ''facts are twisted solely to gain control over people'' is an original thought. Seems like I keep hearing the clown GOP candidates spewing this garbage.

Come on David. Get off your political high horse. Your comments are laughable and lessens your credibility.

Better stick with maps, guy. Leave the politics for OT.


I don't think DK has any credibility to lose. I notice that he conveniently disregards the facts that are posted and continuously promotes his ignorance. He has no sources of alternative arguements other than his personal and political beliefs. You can read below about beliefs, they do not change reality. We as humans have made a huge global impact due to our actions and populations. We need to alter our behaviours to make progress in the future. Dinosaurs are extinct.

[Edited on 8-30-2015 by Sweetwater]

LancairDriver - 8-30-2015 at 10:40 AM

Interesting observing the one sided juvenile playground mocking and name calling displayed in attempting to present personal opinions and mock opinions of others by the same old players. Mentality and credibility is on a par with the climate change "expert" cited in this article minus the 32 months for fraud.
Quote: Originally posted by gnukid  
In the news, EPA Climate change expert sentenced to 32 months for fraud, says lying was a 'rush'

http://www.nbcnews.com/news/other/climate-change-expert-sent...
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