BajaNomad

'nother battery ?

Santiago - 10-17-2015 at 09:56 AM

I know this has been hashed out almost as much as tires but once more......into the fray.

Time to replace my battery bank, such as it is. My system is two 12 volt 190 watt panels, going thru a Xantrex 60 amp charge/controller feeding 4 Sam's Club 6-volt golf-cart batteries wired to 12 volts (20 AMP hours of about 410). The battery bank is converted to 120v via a 1500 watt Xantrex inverter (modified wave) and on to the power center. Pretty simple and low key operation and so far, trouble free. The entire system, including the batteries, is 4 years old.

I only use the cabin 4 times a year, week at a time at most. During the time I'm gone, the batteries stay connected to the panels. Everytime I come in October, the batteries need water, a lot of water. The tops of the plates are dry, requiring over a gallon to top off the 12 cells. During the winter months, this does not seem to be happening; I still need to add water but the plates are still wet. I hear +/- regarding automated watering systems. At least twice a year I remove all the cables, do the baking soda thing, reconnect the cabling and do the red-spray stuff. As you can tell, I am not anal about my system and have no intension of being so. I yam what I yam.

My question is this: 4 more golf cart batteries will cost about $367. If I get 4 more years that's $91/year.
Or, go to an AGM system which will run me upwards to $1000 for 420 AMP hours. The missing piece of info is how long will the AGMs last in this environment (BOLA) and treatment? Is 8 years doable?

By the way, I do not see the need to expand my system's capabilities. I am always 100% full buy 3 or 4 in the afternoon and never below 80% in the morning. I wash my panels on arrival.

Another question: where is the best place to take off 12volts in my system: at the batteries or at the 12 volt terminals on the in-let side of the inverter? My water pump is a Whisper King 12v Surflow and I have been running it off a separate battery but want to wire it into the system. I also want to run a few 12 volt lights for redundancy in case the inverter goes some day.

Donkey Shame

monoloco - 10-17-2015 at 10:31 AM

What's the maximum length of time that the system sits without being used? You could safely leave those golf cart batteries disconnected for 3-4 months at a time and it would probably be better for them than leaving them charging and gassing out all their electrolytes. I have seen countless battery banks killed by leaving them charging unattended for months at a time, usually what happens is one or more cells will go bad and cause the rest of the bank to be ruined by overcharging. I think that it would be better to take your 12v circuit off the inverter terminals so you just have one set of cables coming off the batteries instead of another set of ring connectors to corrode.

Santiago - 10-17-2015 at 11:30 AM

Quote: Originally posted by monoloco  
What's the maximum length of time that the system sits without being used?
I think that it would be better to take your 12v circuit off the inverter terminals so you just have one set of cables coming off the batteries instead of another set of ring connectors to corrode.

3 months, occasionallyy 4 over the winter.
I was thinking same thing on the 12 volt take-off.

rts551 - 10-17-2015 at 11:41 AM

Because I do not wish to bring batteries down anymore, I have switched to LTH 8d 12 volt deep cycle batteries (they are used on barges and big trucks). Gohner makes them as well. I don't have any more issues with one 6v battery killing the others or nearly the water usage. They do weigh 60 kilo's apiece but are readily available in Mexico.

On edit: Baja Gringo (Ron) turned me on to these.



[Edited on 10-17-2015 by rts551]

Santiago - 10-17-2015 at 12:47 PM

Is this the one you mean?

productos_lth_heavy.jpg - 23kB

micah202 - 10-17-2015 at 01:51 PM



...would it work to disconnect most of the panels when you're away,,
,,just have a small trickle-charge?

bkbend - 10-17-2015 at 02:09 PM

I disconnect mine (6V golf cart) while I'm gone and that solves the dry battery issues. However, they will lose about 10% charge/month and it may take you a couple of days to get them back up to a full charge. If you're there only for a week, that will cut into your time with full power. I also worried about lights if the inverter craps out so I have bathroom and partial kitchen lights (and the wife's reading light) wired to 12v so the important things can still get done. I'm not sure if it's the right way to do it or not but I ran a fused 4 gauge wire to + and - bus blocks and then connected the 12V runs to that.

Santiago - 10-17-2015 at 03:11 PM

Quote: Originally posted by soulpatch  
If that is the C60 you should be able to easily adjust your float charge down to 12.5 V while you are gone.
Do you know what you have it set at?

Can I assume you disconnect your inverter so it isn't drawing current?

[Edited on 10-17-2015 by soulpatch]

It is the C60 and I left the jumpers and adjusting wheels at the factory setting, whatever that was.

Yes, the inverter is turned off. Here is a picture of my board, please do not laugh with earshot. Only two batteries in the test, but there are four.

rts551 - 10-17-2015 at 10:22 PM

Quote: Originally posted by Santiago  
Is this the one you mean?



Yes

landyacht318 - 10-18-2015 at 03:41 AM

Ideal float voltage is just high enough to prevent discharge.

Ideal float voltage changes with battery temperature, the higher the temperature, the lower the voltage required.

A battery which is not discharged the night before does not need to spend 2 hours in the mid 14s the next morning.

Batteries whose plates get exposed rarely provide adequate service after refilling..

Lower float voltage to 12.9 when you leave in summer, allow 14.5v absorption voltage for no more than 15 minutes when you are away.

A daily deeply cycled battery does not need the same voltage regimen as one which was not cycled.

Your charge controller seems to allow different settings. YOu have just not chosen them right when you leave.

Batteries self discharge more in hot weather. I would not recommend leaving them for 3 to 4 months in 80F average without a charging source.

Sams club 6v GC batteries are No trojan T-105, but way better than 99.98% of 12v flooded batteries in deep cycle duties.

AGM batteries are great and give great service, but only when their specific recharging demands are met. Their price does not make them immune from chronic under or overcharging.

AGMS do not make great solar only batteries as they like higher amp recharging, upto 30% for lesser $$ AGMS and no less than 20% for high$$ AGMSlike Lifeline, and Odyssey requiring 40% when deep cycled.

I'd recommend more Wet GC batteries and learn how to lower the voltage on your charge controller for when you leave and know how to bump it back upto 14.6 to .8 for 3 to 4 hours when you actually cycle the batteries daily. If it can accommodate a battery temperature sensor, all the better.

One battery guru I highly respect claims than no wet/flooded 4d or 8d battery has plates as thick as a T-105 GC-2 battery. That they are basically starting batteries, marine/dual purpose at best. Nowhere near the construction of a true deep cycle battery.

http://www.pbase.com/mainecruising/deep_cycle_battery

Positive plate thickness defines a quality deep cycle battery, though Odyssey and Northstar AGMS tout their thin plate pure lead technology, and I have to say my Northstar AGM is Effing impressive in deep cycle as well as engine starting duty, as long as it is charged truly fully after every depletion( when amps taper to 0.5% of capacity at 14.4v), and recharged regularly at a very high rate.. 40 amps or more for a 90AH battery. Ignore the trickle charger mentality with AGM batteries, and on flooded batteries deeply cycled daily.

If one PSOC's their battery, partial state of charge cycling, then the battery gets peeed off and sulfates. Flooded batteries get less peeed off than AGM in PSOC usage.

AGM batteries need to be installed as a system. The charging currents need to be tailored to their petulance, and the petulance varies between AGM brands.

I'd say that they need a high charge rate every 7 to 10 cycles when low and slow solaar only recharged.

Beware of blinking green lights on charge controllers. When A charge controller drops to float voltage, it does not mean the battery is fully charged, it ONLY means that absorption voltage was held as long as it was programmed to do so.

Ideal Absorption voltage and duration at which it is held is moving target that wanders with temperature, depth of discharge, charge rate.

Those who use a hydrometer compensated for temperature will find their charge controller is a effing liar, that Absorption voltage, perhaps a higher ABSV) needs to be held for much longer before specific gravity maxes out.

When a heavily cycled battery does not regularly have its specific gravity maxed out in the 1.275+ range, the battery is losing capacity faster than if it were.

Lead Acid Batteries are murdered by ignorance of their requirements, 99% of the time.

Santiago - 10-18-2015 at 07:21 AM

Assuming four 6volt GC batteries:

image002.jpg - 9kB
So, first I find out from the battery manufacturer what their recommended settings are and these I use when I'm there.
On leaving for 3-4 months, I need to change the float setting to it's lowest point: 12.5. Should the Bulk setting be reduced as well? During these months away, it should never go into Bulk, correct?
I can change the equalization charge from auto to manual: auto is every 30 days. Factory setting is manual and I suspect that is what it is set at. I seem to recall once doing an equalization charge a few years ago. How often, given my usage, should I do one?

rts551 - 10-18-2015 at 07:57 PM

Quote: Originally posted by landyacht318  
Ideal float voltage is just high enough to prevent discharge.

Ideal float voltage changes with battery temperature, the higher the temperature, the lower the voltage required.

A battery which is not discharged the night before does not need to spend 2 hours in the mid 14s the next morning.

Batteries whose plates get exposed rarely provide adequate service after refilling..

Lower float voltage to 12.9 when you leave in summer, allow 14.5v absorption voltage for no more than 15 minutes when you are away.

A daily deeply cycled battery does not need the same voltage regimen as one which was not cycled.

Your charge controller seems to allow different settings. YOu have just not chosen them right when you leave.

Batteries self discharge more in hot weather. I would not recommend leaving them for 3 to 4 months in 80F average without a charging source.

Sams club 6v GC batteries are No trojan T-105, but way better than 99.98% of 12v flooded batteries in deep cycle duties.

AGM batteries are great and give great service, but only when their specific recharging demands are met. Their price does not make them immune from chronic under or overcharging.

AGMS do not make great solar only batteries as they like higher amp recharging, upto 30% for lesser $$ AGMS and no less than 20% for high$$ AGMSlike Lifeline, and Odyssey requiring 40% when deep cycled.

I'd recommend more Wet GC batteries and learn how to lower the voltage on your charge controller for when you leave and know how to bump it back upto 14.6 to .8 for 3 to 4 hours when you actually cycle the batteries daily. If it can accommodate a battery temperature sensor, all the better.

One battery guru I highly respect claims than no wet/flooded 4d or 8d battery has plates as thick as a T-105 GC-2 battery. That they are basically starting batteries, marine/dual purpose at best. Nowhere near the construction of a true deep cycle battery.

http://www.pbase.com/mainecruising/deep_cycle_battery

Positive plate thickness defines a quality deep cycle battery, though Odyssey and Northstar AGMS tout their thin plate pure lead technology, and I have to say my Northstar AGM is Effing impressive in deep cycle as well as engine starting duty, as long as it is charged truly fully after every depletion( when amps taper to 0.5% of capacity at 14.4v), and recharged regularly at a very high rate.. 40 amps or more for a 90AH battery. Ignore the trickle charger mentality with AGM batteries, and on flooded batteries deeply cycled daily.

If one PSOC's their battery, partial state of charge cycling, then the battery gets peeed off and sulfates. Flooded batteries get less peeed off than AGM in PSOC usage.

AGM batteries need to be installed as a system. The charging currents need to be tailored to their petulance, and the petulance varies between AGM brands.

I'd say that they need a high charge rate every 7 to 10 cycles when low and slow solaar only recharged.

Beware of blinking green lights on charge controllers. When A charge controller drops to float voltage, it does not mean the battery is fully charged, it ONLY means that absorption voltage was held as long as it was programmed to do so.

Ideal Absorption voltage and duration at which it is held is moving target that wanders with temperature, depth of discharge, charge rate.

Those who use a hydrometer compensated for temperature will find their charge controller is a effing liar, that Absorption voltage, perhaps a higher ABSV) needs to be held for much longer before specific gravity maxes out.

When a heavily cycled battery does not regularly have its specific gravity maxed out in the 1.275+ range, the battery is losing capacity faster than if it were.

Lead Acid Batteries are murdered by ignorance of their requirements, 99% of the time.


What kind of batteries do you use, and what are you charge rates set for?

landyacht318 - 10-18-2015 at 09:07 PM

My Solar/battery/electrical System is in A campervan.

My most recent flooded battery was a USbattery, group31. 130AH capacity.
With lots of experimenting with a hydrometer and changing my solar settings, I found 14.9v absorption voltage with a 15.3v float voltage for the remainder of afternoon, In daily usage cycling 45 to 60AH overnight, was required for Specific gravity to stay above 1.265 after 10 to 14 deep cycles. Every 14 to 16 days It would require 45 to 120 minutes being held at 16v after a normal absorption cycle.

This battery's performance Absolutely tanked if it did not receive these practically obscene voltages daily and EQ charges every 2 weeks. If I let it walk down in capacity too far, then even more time at 16v, 4 to 5 hours, was required to get the specific gravity up to 1.280. 15.5v would not do it, 15.7v would not do it, 16v would.

When the alternator contributed heavily to charging in the early morning when the battery was most depleted, the total time at which it needed to be held at 14.9v and 15.3v was reduced. My alternator would do 32 amps minimum and as much as 85 into this USbattery group31. It would always start at 62 amps Into the battery but fade to 32 amps when hot and idle speed slowed by 375 rpm.

This battery lasted nearly 500 deep cycles, which is pretty good for such a battery. When I was Not cycling the battery nightly, I reprogrammed float voltage to 13.1v, and also lowered absorption voltage to 14.1v for 30 minutes or 1 amp taper point, No automatic equalize allowed, basically it would rise to absorption voltage quickly early morning and drop to 13.1float voltage right after. Water loss in this regimen is minimal, barely perceptible in 3.5 weeks the system was left alone over the holidays.

I have not replaced it. My other battery which Was more for engine starting purposes only, is a Northstar AGM battery, group 27, 930CCA, 90 AH capacity. Right now My solar settings are 14.4v, absorption voltage set for 3.5 hours or when current required to hold 14.4v drops below 0.4 amps. Float voltage 13.6v. Bulk charge is just maximum amps available until 14.4 is attained, and is highly variable depending on day.

I pull 40 to 65 AH from this battery 4 to 5 nights a week. it still easily pulls 70 to 80 amps from the alternator whose voltage regulator allows a maximum of 14.9v. or 0.5v higher than recommended by Northstar.

This AGM battery loves huge recharging currents, and then to be top charged to 100% by 200 watts of solar. After 4 to 5 solar only recharge cycles after 50% deep cycles, it requires a high amp recharge from its most depleted state or performance tanks.

This battery is my only battery at the moment. I have tremendous confidence in its abilities as at nearly 2 years old and closing in on 200 Deep cycles, It can hold the same voltages under the same loads with the same amount of capacity Removed from it, compared to when it was brand spanking new.

It can easily and quickly start my Engine, even when depleted to 50%. When fully charged, it hold 13.06v for 3 weeks with no load on it. Very low self discharge.

All previous Flooded batteries had obviously degraded by 200 deep cycles, but they were all the quasi deep cycles, Crown and USbattery brand, in the group 27 and group31 size 12v format. The wally world marine/dual purpose batteries in group 27 size were lucky to last 300 cycles total at a no more than 65% depth of discharge, but these did not receive proper voltages or durations and sulfated prematurely and shorted cells easily.

BigWooo - 10-19-2015 at 06:11 AM

I'm posting without reading the replies (didn't have time) so I may be repeating some info. When we had a vacation home we spent about equal amount of time in Baja as you do. We used Concorde AGM batteries and shut down the solar when we were not there. AGM batteries can sit up to 9 months without a charge. The batteries were still good when we sold our place after being used for over 10 years!

On our new home we also use Concorde AGM's. They get daily use now and I'm getting about 8 years out of them. I'm very careful to be sure I have proper absorb time and I have a big enough bank so I don't discharge them more than 25% daily (usually about 20%). though.

woody with a view - 10-19-2015 at 08:33 AM

thanks for bringing this up Santiago, i'm learning as well.

3 days of rain squalls did a number on my system last time. i left two of these plugged in to the controller with the inverter off to give them a good soak: http://deepcyclebatterystore.com/solar-battery-back-up/

looks like i need another couple of them though. like i said, i brought them WAY down and they had trouble getting back to full each day due to weather. BTW, my total draw is 4.5A when everything is on, which is almost never.

[Edited on 10-19-2015 by woody with a view]

Santiago - 10-19-2015 at 09:25 AM

Quote: Originally posted by BigWooo  
I'm posting without reading the replies (didn't have time) so I may be repeating some info. When we had a vacation home we spent about equal amount of time in Baja as you do. We used Concorde AGM batteries and shut down the solar when we were not there. AGM batteries can sit up to 9 months without a charge. The batteries were still good when we sold our place after being used for over 10 years!

On our new home we also use Concorde AGM's. They get daily use now and I'm getting about 8 years out of them. I'm very careful to be sure I have proper absorb time and I have a big enough bank so I don't discharge them more than 25% daily (usually about 20%). though.


Did you use the 12v or the 6v?

rts551 - 10-19-2015 at 10:43 AM

We have apples and oranges going on here. I have a wind generator, 6 100 watt panels, 2 150 watt panels, use to use12 6v gc batteries , now use 6 8d batteries. But I run a full house (tv, frig, freezer, fans, etc). My grid tie inverter charvers the batteries if I do have to run the generator (which is not often).
I DO NOT run my batteries down every day. So I think the requirements for a household are very different than a camper or vacation lights only home.


monoloco - 10-19-2015 at 10:48 AM

Quote: Originally posted by Santiago  
Quote: Originally posted by BigWooo  
I'm posting without reading the replies (didn't have time) so I may be repeating some info. When we had a vacation home we spent about equal amount of time in Baja as you do. We used Concorde AGM batteries and shut down the solar when we were not there. AGM batteries can sit up to 9 months without a charge. The batteries were still good when we sold our place after being used for over 10 years!

On our new home we also use Concorde AGM's. They get daily use now and I'm getting about 8 years out of them. I'm very careful to be sure I have proper absorb time and I have a big enough bank so I don't discharge them more than 25% daily (usually about 20%). though.


Did you use the 12v or the 6v?
If you need more capacity in a 12v system than you can get with 2 6v batteries, you are better off using 6 2v batteries to avoid parallel strings. I am using 8 6v Concorde AGM's for a 24v system and have had some issues with uneven charging, and wish that I would have bought 12 2v batteries instead. Considering how little that you use your system, it's probably not worth spending double the money on AGM's. Maybe keep an eye out for some used 2v AGM telecom batteries.

Carbon Foam AGM

captkw - 10-19-2015 at 06:43 PM

Being I do batt/pwr systems in my line of work I have to stay on top of my game and was wondering if anyone here is using them in a system and their thought's...from what I have learned is they are showing a bright future..pun intended !!

[Edited on 10-20-2015 by captkw]

BigWooo - 10-20-2015 at 06:24 AM

12volt



Quote: Originally posted by Santiago  
Quote: Originally posted by BigWooo  
I'm posting without reading the replies (didn't have time) so I may be repeating some info. When we had a vacation home we spent about equal amount of time in Baja as you do. We used Concorde AGM batteries and shut down the solar when we were not there. AGM batteries can sit up to 9 months without a charge. The batteries were still good when we sold our place after being used for over 10 years!

On our new home we also use Concorde AGM's. They get daily use now and I'm getting about 8 years out of them. I'm very careful to be sure I have proper absorb time and I have a big enough bank so I don't discharge them more than 25% daily (usually about 20%). though.


Did you use the 12v or the 6v?

BigWooo - 10-20-2015 at 06:32 AM

You are much better off using 6 volt batteries in series/parallel strings, or even 2 volt batteries. The batteries charge more efficiently. You can parallel up to 4 or even 6 12 volt batteries without much loss in charging efficiency though.

I'm sold on AGM batteries and feel the cost is worth it. I never have to worry about equalizing or checking the water. Battery room doesn't stink and all I ever change is the absorb time based on my average daily use. When you have a vacation home I think the AGM's are the best. You can shut the system down, let them sit for up to 9 months and never have to worry about someone maintaining the water level while you're gone.

anyone ??

captkw - 10-20-2015 at 07:31 AM

Quote: Originally posted by captkw  
Being I do batt/pwr systems in my line of work I have to stay on top of my game and was wondering if anyone here is using them in a system and their thought's...from what I have learned is they are showing a bright future..pun intended !!

[Edited on 10-20-2015 by captkw]

landyacht318 - 10-20-2015 at 06:57 PM

Concorde makes Lifeline and the Sunextender lines targeted at the renewables market, but I suspect Sunextenders are simply lifelines with a different sticker. The charge recommendations and Owners manuals are exactly the same but for the headers.

They are excellent batteries, but Like All AGMs they really need to be 100% recharged often, and high amp recharging is also recommended when deeply cycled. Lifeline says 20 amps per 100AH of capacity when deeply cycled.

100% charged is when the amps require to hold a Hundred amp hour AGM battery at 14.4v, taper to 0.5 amps.

With flooded batteries, it is 2 to 3 amps per 100 AH of capacity, but really with flooded the Hydrometer is the polygraph as to when the battery is indeed 100% charged. Not voltage. Voltage is practically meaningless as a way of determining full charge. One can have a 'fully' charged flooded batery resting for 5 days at 12.7v, and then dip the hydrometer and find 1.200 where full charge is 1.275, or perhaps even higher. Now the denser acid usually falls to the bottom of the cells, and the hydrometer might read low because it is only sucking the less dense acid on top, but one can charge them at gassing voltages, 15 minutes is enough to destratify the acid, and still find this 12.7v rested battery, is only 1.200.



The deeper the discharge, the more important it is to give the AGM's high amp recharges every so often.

Lifeline/ Concorde is also the only AGM battery manufacturer that lists a 'conditioning' procedure, which is very similar to a flooded battery equalization cycle.

http://www.lifelinebatteries.com/manual.pdf

page 20 section 5.5

If you can treat lifeline AGM batteries well, they will return the favor. If you cannot, then you will not get good value from them. Their high price does not give them magical qualities which will negate incomplete/improper recharging .

Regarding 12v flooded batteries, all of them in the regular car jar sizes are NOT deep cycle batteries. Despite the label clearly saying so.

They are dual purpose batteries and their internal construction is closer to a starting battery, than it is to a real deep cycle battery.

If you are going to get flooded batteries, 6v golf cart batteries are true deep cycle batteries, and they have more electrolyte both above and below the plates. Above so they can go longer between waterings, and below so plate sheddings can build up much longer before actually shorting out a cell. As 2 golf cart batteries cost the same or less than 2 group 27/29 or 31 batteries, and have twice the rated number of cycles, if you choose 2 12 volts over 2 six volts golf cart batteries in series. Well find gun, aim at foot, and shoot.

There are a few authentic 12v deep cycle batteries, but they are much taller than the group 24/27/29/31 BCI size groups

Look into the Trojan t-1275/ J150 and the J 185.

Rolls Surrette sets the standard for flooded batteries. Their owners manual answers every question I ever had about lead acid batteries.

Those interested in deep cycle lead acid batteries would do well to read this manual. There is so much crap and myths surrounding lead acid batteries all over the net, espoused time and again like gospel, it is kind of ridiculous.

http://rollsbattery.com/uploads/pdfs/documents/user_manuals/...

Between the Lifeline and the RollsSurrette manuals, everything anyone needs to know about deep cycle lead acid batteries and their proper treatment, is right there.

Whether it is decipherable to the reader is the only question. They are not written as tech speak for engineers.


[Edited on 10-21-2015 by landyacht318]


The Firefly Carbon Foam AGM batteries claim to be resistant to the biggest killer of AGM batteries, and that is partial state of charge cycling.

All lead acid battteries are compromised to some degree by being discharged again before being fully recharged, but these carbon foam AGMS claim to handle it like water off of a ducks back.

Some in the Boating communities have tested them and say they do seen to have the same capacity after 6 months sitting at 50% state of charge.

I hear production cannot keep up with demand yet:
http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/f14/agm-fire-fly-battery...
:


[Edited on 10-21-2015 by landyacht318]

Firefly (carbon foam agm)

captkw - 10-20-2015 at 07:43 PM

They say that the DOD is a very small factor with thei






















"




















I have been watching them for a while.. they state that the DOD is of a very little concern.. btw , we can thank "CUMMINS" for the first attemp's and now with ION"S,, whats next ??


















[Edited on 10-21-2015 by captkw]

Yep, got wait for the truth test (time)

captkw - 10-20-2015 at 08:05 PM

and landyacht is Soo correct about battery's..one of the most misunderstanded things around..always been that way, and always will be,,because folks don't take the time to study...Duh,,and another thing is most outboard stators don't like deep clycle's and I see it daily...Grr.. I use a lot of CDI outboard ignition parts and their tech and me BS a few times a year..when someone wants to warrenty a stator or volt/reg first thing they ask is what battery are you using..if you reply "deep clycle" they say "Sorry" did you not read your owners manual?