BajaNomad - Tips for off road driving along muddy dirt roads

Cool pics! Were you deflated to ~20 psi when you got stuck at Shell Island?

I hadn't aired my tires down - yet. Once on the sand, I got down to ~12 psi. I run 20 psi on the street.

David K - 11-1-2015 at 06:12 PM

Will ArmorAll prevent the mud from sticking to the tires?

Not Baja's sticky, salty mud... nope!

mtgoat666 - 11-1-2015 at 06:42 PM

Quote: Originally posted by Ken Cooke

Cool pics! Were you deflated to ~20 psi when you got stuck at Shell Island?

I hadn't aired my tires down - yet. Once on the sand, I got down to ~12 psi. I run 20 psi on the street.

20 psi on pavement? Lifted jeeps are prone to tip over, so why you running low street air? You got health insurance?

Fatboy - 11-1-2015 at 06:45 PM

Its important to get your vehicle to a car wash before the mud dries.

Or else US customs will send you to secondary then take down the barriers and send you back into Mexico on Christmas eve to clean your vehicle....

liknbaja127 - 11-1-2015 at 06:50 PM

David, You are so right! That mud, and sand mix is REALY hard to get off. We call it 2 time dirt. You clean it once, let it dry, then you have to
do it again, To get it clean! but it is still so worth it :bounce:

David K - 11-1-2015 at 06:58 PM

Quote: Originally posted by mtgoat666

Quote: Originally posted by Ken Cooke

Cool pics! Were you deflated to ~20 psi when you got stuck at Shell Island?

I hadn't aired my tires down - yet. Once on the sand, I got down to ~12 psi. I run 20 psi on the street.

20 psi on pavement? Lifted jeeps are prone to tip over, so why you running low street air? You got health insurance?

Heavy sidewall tires on light vehicles do not need lot's of air pressure. My Tacoma (it is not light) has a suggested 29 psi on the front stock BFG tires. Less air would be harder to roll over than more... ie./ better grip. You again are wrong about roll over, anyway. That was the former Jeep CJ-5. The Wrangler replaced the CJ Jeeps with a much wider track and lower body height over the axles... to prevent 60 Minutes or any other TV show to end a long-running popular model.

4x4abc - 11-1-2015 at 07:13 PM

the number of plies in the sidewall do not indicate whether a sidewall is stiff or soft.
I remember doing a side by side comparison with a 2 ply Goodyear and a 3 ply BFGoodrich. The 2 ply Goodyear was significantly stiffer than the 3 play Goodyear.
The 2 ply was also more puncture resistant than the 3 play.
The 3 ply handled much better in all situations as well as at high and low pressures.

So, when it gets cold - you can have 2 heavy coats or 3 T-shirts. Layer is layer, right? Which combination indicates you live in Baja?

4x4abc - 11-1-2015 at 07:27 PM

tire pressure on a 4x4 is an art. You need to play. Need to experiment. Vehicle weight, the volume of air in your tire and sidewall flexibility play all together.
A Suzuki Samurai on 35's may have completely overinflated tires at 10 psi.

My trail pressure is 20 psi on a 7,000 lb vehicle. 15 when the trail gets rough. 10 at the beach. 5 for mud. And sometimes I chose half the pressure for the front. 295/75R16 BFG AT.

20 psi with 35's on a TJ in the mud? You are going straight to China.

Why spend all the money for a super 4x4, for big tires, for lockers - when you drive it like granny.

Tioloco - 11-1-2015 at 10:46 PM

Tip: MOMENTUM

4x4abc - 11-2-2015 at 12:04 AM

the very last thing you want to use when 4-wheeling is momentum (it has it's place as an absolute emergency)

Cisco - 11-2-2015 at 01:40 AM

These Guy's do it a little differently.

https://youtu.be/cYN80QVfRqw

monoloco - 11-2-2015 at 06:18 AM

Quote: Originally posted by Cisco

These Guy's do it a little differently.

https://youtu.be/cYN80QVfRqw

Those Russians are some crazy assed mofo's.

mtgoat666 - 11-2-2015 at 06:59 AM

When it comes to driving, most (all?) males are afflicted with illusory superiority. That's where you think you are a better driver than everyone else on the road. When the boy drives a 4x4, the boy thinks he is an off-road driving savant.

But did you know women are BETTER drivers than men!?!?!?!?!?? Men are 3.4 times more likely than women to get a ticket for reckless driving and 3.1 times as likely to be cited for drunk driving. Women are on average less aggressive and more law-abiding drivers -- attributes that lead to fewer accidents.

So, let's hear from some women about how to drive offroad in mud, eh?

[Edited on 11-2-2015 by mtgoat666]

woody with a view - 11-2-2015 at 07:48 AM

driving in mud? just plan ahead....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YnRRGW6z3UQ

4x4abc - 11-2-2015 at 07:50 AM

from my limited experience (30 years) - women are the better drivers off-road.
Initially.
Because they are more careful.
But they don't care much after they have done it a couple of times.
Guys suck in the beginning (many continue)
Since guys are more competitive, they exchange ideas, talk, improve, get better
Much better

bajatrailrider - 11-2-2015 at 08:08 AM

Another tip,if you see red clay and its raining or soaking wet.Go back the way you came.It wont matter what tires,or rig you have.You will get stuck.

4x4abc - 11-2-2015 at 08:46 AM

that's like saying "The moon is too far away - we can't go there."
Everything has a solution

here is the Russian answer:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RbDe5dEu07I

[Edited on 11-2-2015 by 4x4abc]

chuckie - 11-2-2015 at 09:15 AM

How many Russians go to Baja?

motoged - 11-2-2015 at 01:37 PM

....and how many go to the Kansas prairies?

Here they come, Chuckie....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oZxymMyaLEY

woody with a view - 11-2-2015 at 01:44 PM

too much man-skin Ged

chuckie - 11-2-2015 at 01:56 PM

Da Tovarich! This whole county was settled by Russians...Lutherans to boot eh?

Tioloco - 11-2-2015 at 03:49 PM

abc4x4
You, my friend are Wrong.
Momentum is important in many situations off road. Finesse is important in others.
The relatively small mud hole we saw a photo of at the beginning of this thread was attempted with not enough of either.
I wonder why the vehicles front tires are neither sunk down nor is there any evidence of wheel spin- no mud flung up on vehicle...? Looks as though he just parked it there.
Weird.

motoged - 11-2-2015 at 04:39 PM

Yeah....I was a bit embarrassed for Ken that :
#1) he got stuck like that
#2) That he posted the photo :biggrin:

Tioloco - 11-2-2015 at 04:46 PM

You got that right Ged. I am still chuckling...

chuckie - 11-2-2015 at 05:07 PM

I deen wan say something..But Yeah...

Tioloco - 11-2-2015 at 05:10 PM

I'm guessing that had the vehicle been properly serviced prior to the trip ie: changed the windshield washer fluid, upgrading to CO2 in the tires, re flashing the flux capacitor....
This mud hole would have learned its lesson.

BigBearRider - 11-2-2015 at 05:17 PM

How many Russians go to Baja?

The Guadalupe Valley had a sizeable Russian settlement from sometime in the 1800s:

http://www.bajabound.com/bajaadventures/bajatravel/guadalupe...

The museum at the Guadalupe mission site in Francisco Zarco has a nice little exhibit on the Molokans. The lady who was manning the museum when I was there a few months ago had a Russian last name.

motoged - 11-2-2015 at 05:52 PM

I deen wan say something..But Yeah...

Chuckie,

As you know....our impulsivity and wit overcomes our better manners :biggrin:

....and I will let the comment about ArmorAll keeping mud off the tires slip.... :lol:

[Edited on 11-3-2015 by motoged]

chuckie - 11-2-2015 at 06:17 PM

Armorall was not me...I always use eggwhite, brushed on lightly, and sun dried to keep the mud off the tires...

4x4abc - 11-2-2015 at 06:24 PM

I have been wrong before.
So glad, we don't have to bother with science on this forum.
Just the manly men stuff.

Step on it! Gas it!
Hear it all the time. Must be very popular.

Allow me one question though. How does momentum (brute force) go with finesse (delicate driving)?

The way I see it, when something gets difficult - you want to do it slowly. Controlled.
Like mountain climbing. With skill, the right equipment and a slow pace, you are almost guaranteed success.
Without the skills and/or without proper gear, you might just scramble up the wall. Works in cartoons.

They still teach it in Land Rover schools.

David K - 11-2-2015 at 06:26 PM

abc4x4
You, my friend are Wrong.
Momentum is important in many situations off road. Finesse is important in others.
The relatively small mud hole we saw a photo of at the beginning of this thread was attempted with not enough of either.
I wonder why the vehicles front tires are neither sunk down nor is there any evidence of wheel spin- no mud flung up on vehicle...? Looks as though he just parked it there.
Weird.

Careful, not only is he a German, but he wrote the book on 4WD driving! :light:

I think what a lot of folks don't get or have is the modern traction controls many 4WD vehicles fro Toyota and Mercedes and other makes have now, invented by Bosch. Toyota calls its Bosch inspired system A-TRAC. These traction systems sense a loss of traction and can brake just the one tire that spins while the other three can keep pulling.

In the old days of open differentials and one tire per axle spinning and the other doing nothing OR locking differentials that make both tires spin on that axle, can require momentum, in the same sense that 2WD vehicles use momentum to cross low traction areas. Unfortunately, momentum is what breaks things!

Low air pressure, traction controls, and tire placement are the keys to crawling slow and safe up and over low traction situations.

motoged - 11-2-2015 at 06:57 PM

Quote: Originally posted by David K

.....Careful, not only is he a German, but he wrote the book on 4WD driving! :light:

chuckie - 11-2-2015 at 07:16 PM

Be patient Ed....He'll have lotsa pictures of the cover...

Tioloco - 11-2-2015 at 07:22 PM

Abc-
I know, I know... Sometimes some of us Americans are over the top. But do a google on Formula Offroad and you will see there is more out there than Land Rover school. It takes all kinds.

Tioloco - 11-2-2015 at 07:28 PM

DavidK
Slow and steady with traction control will not get you thru the dunes. It does work in the rocks though.

bajatrailrider - 11-2-2015 at 07:41 PM

Quote: Originally posted by 4x4abc

that's like saying "The moon is too far away - we can't go there."
Everything has a solution

here is the Russian answer:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RbDe5dEu07I

[Edited on 11-2-2015 by 4x4abc]

But ABC the only Rusos I know in Baja.Have bald tires.We got caught on Baja 500 course 1 day after rain storm.From Rancho Coyote down to paved road to observatory.Nealy Impossible on dirt bikes,we passed many 4x4 trucks stranded. If you have ever driven in red clay,it makes Ice driving easy.

Cisco - 11-2-2015 at 07:51 PM

On going slow...

https://youtu.be/_7VFIZhR744

David K - 11-2-2015 at 10:37 PM

DavidK
Slow and steady with traction control will not get you thru the dunes. It does work in the rocks though.

We were talking MUD is this thread... Sand is a totally different animal.

motoged - 11-3-2015 at 01:14 AM

Naw....we are talking about all sorts of things "is" this thread

chuckie - 11-3-2015 at 04:51 AM

Like all the technology that is (NOT) on the Jeep that got "stuck" in that damp spot....

4x4abc - 11-3-2015 at 07:20 AM

well, David has the the house wife version of traction control.
Works pretty good, but not as well as Ken's manual diff locks.
So, Ken bought some cool stuff - but failed as operator.

It only requires money to buy a piano.

woody with a view - 11-3-2015 at 07:46 AM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GfCp-jE5s04

David K - 11-3-2015 at 09:15 AM

Quote: Originally posted by motoged

Naw....we are talking about all sorts of things "is" this thread

Well, if that's the case... sand requires floatation over traction to move over. Spinning is just as big a no-no in sand as in any other condition, but will bury you the quickest in sand!

Traction Control works in sand very well, but only in 4WD-HIGH RANGE to move across. LOW RANGE has so much power to spin the tires, it can be worse to use, unless you have a traction control (anti-spin/limited slip) system in Low Range. If you are stuck, then going into L4 could help to take advantage of A-TRAC or CRAWL systems to get unstuck.

Air pressure is always the place to achieve floatation on sand, even if you don't have 4WD!

A wider footprint will have a far less ability to dig in vs. move you forward. The amount of air to remove will depend on several factors that include: tire type and sidewall type; vehicle weight; 2WD or 4WD; climate (temperature and humidity); and type of sand. Usually down to the 10-20 psi range.

What modern traction control can do in sand is make it possible to not deflate thanks to the anti-spin technology, under ideal conditions...

When I first took my new 2010 Tacoma onto the beach south of San Felipe (at Bahia Santa Maria), I was stunned that I did not need to deflate the tires, as I had with my 2005 Tacoma. The system Toyota uses is called TRAC (standard equipment since 2009) and it is an electronic limited slip that applies brake pressure to any tire that begins to spin faster than the others. I was able to drive about on the dry sand with ease. The truck was empty and on the next trip when it was heavily loaded, I did need to deflate.

To see if it was indeed the TRAC system that was doing the amazing job or just conditions that day, I disabled the TRAC (putting it in VSC OFF MODE) and withing a few feet, the truck got stuck!

Now, with all four tire dug in, I tested the A-TRAC system for the first time, and the truck crawled out of the stuck! I went back into High Range, and with TRAC back on and continued to drive. I was totally jazzed, and have been ever since with the traction controls. The truck also has a locking rear differential, but with A-TRAC, it is not needed except perhaps when pulling others out of stucks or up hills, as I have down a few times.

Here is a video showing how A-TRAC (incorporated into a 2016 Tacoma as 'Crawl Control') takes the Toyota out of a sand stuck:

Tioloco - 11-3-2015 at 10:22 AM

Well said ABC4x4.
DavidK- I watched the video of the Toyota stuck on an incline. That is a soccer mom advertising shenanigan. The truck backs down an incline..... WOW! WTF? That was just 4 minutes of wasted time. Sorry, but Kens rubicon was poorly represented by its driver.

David K - 11-3-2015 at 10:33 AM

Maybe if you turn on the sound, you can hear the Baja 1000 race guy explain what is happening? The truck was driven up on that sand climb, put in 2WD, buried the rear to the body, then put into 4WD, open diff only and buried the front so that all four tires were useless, no backing downhill. Then, the operator engaged the CRAWL CONTROL (which uses A-TRAC) and drove out of the stuck.

When I first intentionally stuck my truck, it was level, dry, beach sand and I crawled out ahead... I also did it in much less time.

The point of all this is showing how the traction control systems on a new truck can now prevent you from needing to dig out, perhaps not needing to deflate the tires, and travel solo without fear of needing a pull.

Tioloco - 11-3-2015 at 10:37 AM

I saw and heard it. It is what it is. Good luck in your solo travels amigo.

David K - 11-3-2015 at 10:38 AM

You too 'Crazy Uncle', you too!

4x4abc - 11-4-2015 at 07:56 PM

beautiful example that shows slow indeed works

impressive how far traction control has come
very sophisticated programming of the software
I published 2 books in '97 and '99 about the first generation Mercedes and Jeep traction control
It worked on pavement when the car was in motion
it failed miserably off-road
but you gotta start somewhere

sure the Toyota engineers cheated by getting stuck uphill and recovering downhill
however, that is pretty much real life
you never get stuck driving downhill

I still prefer manual traction control (lockers) - in the hands of trained drivers it beats electronic traction control
the distribution of torque left and right is better with the manual system
all 4 wheels get (unequal amounts) of torque
with electronic traction control, the torque on 2 wheels is turned into heat (brakes) - only 2 wheels get torque that is turned into motion
wrong forum, sorry - I'll go back in the pool

Udo - 11-4-2015 at 09:59 PM

You are so right!

Even the FJ Cruiser got pretty bogged with Baja mud. I used the 4000psi washer to wash off the mud. Then a week later, I had to do it all over again.
And even then, there was quite a bit of mud left. So much that the auto detailer complained about the mud left on his floor two weeks later. :wow:

Quote: Originally posted by liknbaja127

David, You are so right! That mud, and sand mix is REALY hard to get off. We call it 2 time dirt. You clean it once, let it dry, then you have to
do it again, To get it clean! but it is still so worth it :bounce:

Ken Cooke - 11-6-2015 at 11:54 PM

Quote: Originally posted by mtgoat666

Quote: Originally posted by Ken Cooke

Cool pics! Were you deflated to ~20 psi when you got stuck at Shell Island?

I hadn't aired my tires down - yet. Once on the sand, I got down to ~12 psi. I run 20 psi on the street.

20 psi on pavement? Lifted jeeps are prone to tip over, so why you running low street air? You got health insurance?

I prefer that 'smooth CADILLAC ride' wherever possible. Manufacturer recommendations are for 24# psi for my particular tire size, btw.

Cyanide41 - 12-7-2015 at 07:32 PM

How many Russians go to Baja?

You obviously have never been to the old russian settlement in Valle de Guadalupe.

David K - 12-7-2015 at 10:38 PM

Quote: Originally posted by Cyanide41