BajaNomad

A question for Pesky and other rod builders

Santiago - 4-16-2016 at 05:29 AM

I've always assumed that the line-test range on the rod was to help in selecting the rod for the targeted fish. In other words, the backbone or 'power' built into the rod was for the size of fish that you would expect to get when using a line weight of X.

Recently I've noticed that rods are being advertised with two line weight ranges; one for mono and one for braid. Why would the line being used matter?

I must be wrong in my assumption or is my fly-fishing point of view muddling up my conventional gear thinking?

MMc - 4-16-2016 at 07:15 AM

Because of the lack of stretch in braid and fluorocarbon many manufacturers are looking for to use the rod and rod tip to fill the gap. A softer tip action to give the rod a bit of shock absorption. The Rail rods of today are nothing like the rods 7 years ago.
Try the Bloody Decks Rod building for better answer.
http://www.bdoutdoors.com/forums/forum/rod-building/

Pescador - 4-17-2016 at 09:27 AM

This has been a real loose understanding of what rod strength is all about. It varies by manufacture and is nothing more than a rough recommendation. The Rodbuilders.org came up with a measuring system called common cents and was a real help in determining what was the proper deflection for a given weight. That was the most exacting thing I have ever seen and it gave the custom builder a real helpful guideline to see what work work in various situations. Actually the line used did not have a lot of impact on the rod but instead effected how the user intended to use the rod. Again, one of the benefits of using a custom builder.

mtgoat666 - 4-17-2016 at 10:13 AM

Quote: Originally posted by Pescador  
Again, one of the benefits of using a custom builder.


Custom? Waste of time and money. Plenty of adequate rods available on the shelf.
It's fishing, not rocket science; don't make fishing into a complex engineering and scientific endeavor, just go out and fish. takes much less to catch fish than the gear marketers will pitch you.

Have you watched the locals in Baja fish? They fish with worn out, inexpensive gear, and will fish circles around the gringos with expensive gear picked after obsessive research.

DavidT - 4-17-2016 at 10:54 AM

Quote: Originally posted by mtgoat666  
Quote: Originally posted by Pescador  
Again, one of the benefits of using a custom builder.


Custom? Waste of time and money.



And you can drive your Ford Pinto on the same roads that I drive in my Aston Martin.
Funny how that works, huh.

DavidT - 4-17-2016 at 10:58 AM

Full disclosure:
I don't actually own an Aston Martin.
I am, however, saving up to buy one of their brochures.

Pescador - 4-17-2016 at 11:20 AM

Quote: Originally posted by mtgoat666  
Quote: Originally posted by Pescador  
Again, one of the benefits of using a custom builder.


Custom? Waste of time and money. Plenty of adequate rods available on the shelf.
It's fishing, not rocket science; don't make fishing into a complex engineering and scientific endeavor, just go out and fish. takes much less to catch fish than the gear marketers will pitch you.

Have you watched the locals in Baja fish? They fish with worn out, inexpensive gear, and will fish circles around the gringos with expensive gear picked after obsessive research.


Actually, you may be missing the boat with your prejudices. I taught one of the local fisherman to custom build rods, he does it for less money than a store bought piece of crap and most of the locals in our area are now using him to retool their old rods and when they come across a really good catch or other monies, they buy a custom rod. He is putting out a rod that is adapted to the type of fishing they prefer and putting it out for around 1200 to 2500 pesos. For that they get a rod that is custom designed for their arm length, set up for the line test that they prefer, and has the action they need depending whether they jig fish, do live bait, throw rubber, or whatever.

So if you are someone whose main fishing is drowning cut bait for triggerfish, then go to Wal-mart or Big 5 sporting goods but if you really get serious about matching up you may want to get a "real rod".

BAJA.DESERT.RAT - 4-17-2016 at 03:13 PM

Hola pescador,

i've been building rods for over 30 years and obviously, i agree with your response.

most importantly, the rod needs to be splined right. for those that don't understand, when the rod is loaded up on a fish, on a conventional reel rod, the guides should all be straight up, not kiltered to the left or right of center. if not, you are fighting the fish and the rod.

other benefits can include what blank you would like, your color choices and fancy butt wraps, diamonds, chevrons, fade wraps, what kind of guides to use, etc. as fancy or not as you wish.

when i went to a turner's outdoorsman in los angeles, i was looking for a factory wrapped 8' graphite rod for calico fishing. the one i wanted was a loomis rod at $ 250.00. when i splined it, the guides were off spline by 90 degrees. six others were off spline too so i just bought a calstar graphite and wrapped my own. unfortunately, the calstar was not as thin or light as the loomis.

if you are a serious fisherperson, there are considerations. if you are not serious, go to walmart and have to replace the cheap stuff over and over again.

BIEN SALUD, DA RAT


Santiago - 4-17-2016 at 04:46 PM

Good responses. But still, why would the line weights be different for mono and braid? There is something I don't understand here.

Udo - 4-17-2016 at 06:34 PM

He's right!:bounce:
Quote: Originally posted by Santiago  
Good responses. But still, why would the line weights be different for mono and braid? There is something I don't understand here.

mtgoat666 - 4-17-2016 at 06:45 PM

Quote: Originally posted by Udo  
He's right!:bounce:


Quote: Originally posted by Santiago  
Good responses. But still, why would the line weights be different for mono and braid? There is something I don't understand here.


85% of the rod specs and advertising is pure BS. The more complex they make it, the quicker the suckers bite. Like custom aficionados that talk about spline, it's a lot of hog wash. Have you ever noticed that the spliners never have found a coherent physics argument why spline is significant?

The differing line wt spec between mono and braid is due to line diameter/property, and the associated knot size that will fit thru guides.

BAJA.DESERT.RAT - 4-18-2016 at 12:31 AM

Hola goat,

it is quite obvious that you are not very knowledgeable about rods and rod making. the spline is one the most important part of rod making.

beyond that, it has a lot to do with educating people about the sport of fishing.

after this post, i'm out. can't teach people that aren't interested about learning more of the sport and the useage of their equipment.

i guess ignorance is bliss !!! you are ignorant !

be blissful !

BIEN SALUD, DA RAT

mtgoat666 - 4-18-2016 at 06:37 AM

Quote: Originally posted by BAJA.DESERT.RAT  
Hola goat,

it is quite obvious that you are not very knowledgeable about rods and rod making. the spline is one the most important part of rod making.

beyond that, it has a lot to do with educating people about the sport of fishing.

after this post, i'm out. can't teach people that aren't interested about learning more of the sport and the useage of their equipment.

i guess ignorance is bliss !!! you are ignorant !

be blissful !

BIEN SALUD, DA RAT


You can't articulate why spline is important, nor point to a competent or otherwise peer-reviewed explanation of why spline is important. Spline is marketing hocus pocus.

Pescador - 4-18-2016 at 08:43 AM

Okay, here is why spline is important. A rod blank is built on a mandrel and if you roll the rod in your hand under pressure, there will be a spot where the resistance is stronger in the axis of the rod. That area of least resistance is called the relaxed curve. When building a fly rod or spinning rod, that is going to be throwing a longer weight of line the guides go on the bottom of that curve, whereas, if you are building a casting or boat road which is primarily used for lifting, then the guides go on the top. If you locate the spine correctly, then the rod does not have a tendency to roll in your hand when under pressure.
Secondly, since a salt water rod is used to lift heavier fish, the fulcrum of the rod is of utmost importance and the distance from the rod but to the middle of the reel attachment is very important. I built a test rod that telescopes in the butt section and I let people try to lift 8 lbs with a rod blank to demonstrate how effective that measurement is.
The industry standard is a forum developed by Tom Kirkman and can be found at http://rodbuilding.org/list.php?2
Santiago: The best explanation given by several of the rod manufactures for the difference in line weights between spectra and Mono is that Mono stretches a great deal and needs a stiffer rod to make up for the stretch, where Spectra needs a more flexible rod to function since it does not stretch at all. A very stiff rod with spectra is a real pain as you will get lots of torn out hooks on fish, you will tire very easily with a rod that transmits every head shake down to your arm while fighting fish. I had a rod that was perfect for mono but when I loaded the reel with spectra and a small top shot, it was a real pain to use.

Santiago - 4-18-2016 at 09:22 AM

Got it and thanks. Now I just need to convince SWMBO why I need twice as many rods, heh.

mtgoat666 - 4-18-2016 at 10:05 AM

I have seen no scientific / statistical comparison of rods built on sline axis vs straightest axis vs randomly chosen axis.
I think modern fiberglass and carbon fiber rods have pretty uniform radial properties relative to bamboo or another natural material.
I think the spline thing is voodoo and superstition. Lots of internet chatter supports my position.

dtbushpilot - 4-18-2016 at 10:18 AM

Quote: Originally posted by mtgoat666  
I have seen no scientific / statistical comparison of rods built on sline axis vs straightest axis vs randomly chosen axis.
I think modern fiberglass and carbon fiber rods have pretty uniform radial properties relative to bamboo or another natural material.
I think the spline thing is voodoo and superstition. Lots of internet chatter supports my position.


Internet chatter seems to be your specialty.

Since the internet has spoken we may as well move along now, nothing more to see, 97% of scientists agree that spline considerations are hocus pocus.

[Edited on 4-18-2016 by dtbushpilot]

willardguy - 4-18-2016 at 10:23 AM

maybe.....but how it relates to rising sea levels is really the key here. ;)

dtbushpilot - 4-18-2016 at 10:25 AM

Quote: Originally posted by willardguy  
maybe.....but how it relates to rising sea levels is really the key here. ;)


Rod blank spline relates to rising sea levels?......Interesting..:bounce:

mtgoat666 - 4-18-2016 at 11:53 AM

Quote: Originally posted by dtbushpilot  
Quote: Originally posted by willardguy  
maybe.....but how it relates to rising sea levels is really the key here. ;)


Rod blank spline relates to rising sea levels?......Interesting..:bounce:


According to dk the spline orientation of a palm tree trunk determines if the palm tree is properly aligned with the prevailing winds, which affects the tree's accuracy as a sea level recording device. There was an article on this subject in the jan 2014 journal of the North American Irrigation Association.

willardguy - 4-18-2016 at 12:35 PM

I strongly suspected it had something to do with orientation! :yes:

DavidT - 4-18-2016 at 01:29 PM

Quote: Originally posted by willardguy  
I strongly suspected it had something to do with orientation! :yes:


And the act of casting a rod requires the caster to swing both ways.

dtbushpilot - 4-18-2016 at 02:19 PM

Well that's it....the wheels have come off now :o:o

Pescador - 4-19-2016 at 07:50 AM

If the goat wants to somehow justify beating his Ugly Stick that he purchased on sale at the Organic Farm Festival while dressed in his tie-dyed T-shirt with Green Plaid shorts, that is fine, I am sure it works just fine for the occasional trigger fish and spotted bay bass that he targets.

Santiago - 4-19-2016 at 12:10 PM

Quote: Originally posted by Pescador  
If the goat wants to somehow justify beating his Ugly Stick that is fine, I am sure it works just fine for the occasional trigger fish and spotted bay bass that he targets.


I must have inherited a dozen Ugly Sticks when my dad died 20 years ago and I still use one of their "Big Water" 8.5' spinning rods when I'm dinking from shore........for triggers and bass, heh.