BajaNomad - Jeeping in and around Gonzaga

Jeeping in and around Gonzaga

Charlie Nichols - 4-26-2016 at 10:09 AM

Been to Gonzaga a couple times strictly for fishing but for the next trip (in October), we wanted to see about doing some Jeep-ing around the area. Are there any interesting sights or scenes somewhere off the (now paved) path? Just looking at day tripping stuff, starting and ending at Rancho Grande/Alfonsina's. Something like old homesteads or ranchos? Missions? Stage coach trails, that sort of stuff, to see?

David K - 4-26-2016 at 10:48 AM

YES!!! :light:

On my page http://vivabaja.com/tours/index.html

scroll down to see this list of links you can click and see some of the other sites...

Bahia San Luis Gonzaga Area

Mission-era warehouse ruins on the shore of the bay
Alfonsina's Beach
Onyx Springs create a mineral glacier
Molino de Lacy ruins & grave
Las Palmitas oasis and Santa Maria Canyon
El Camino Real to Mision Santa Maria
Santa Maria Canyon from the air
La Turquesa Canyon
La Turquesa Grade
Calamajue mission site
Campo Beluga (Gonzaga Bay)
Coco's Corner 11-06
Alfonsina's 11-06
more Coco's Corner

This is just one of many links to help have a Baja adventure at www.vivabaja.com
Enjoy!

[Edited on 4-26-2016 by David K]

Charlie Nichols - 4-26-2016 at 11:11 AM

Quote: Originally posted by David K

YES!!!

Thanks a lot! You've now ruined any plans I had of working today, as I'm going to spend the next few hours looking at your links and GoogleEarth-ing everything.... :lol:

Seriously, this is exactly what I was looking for. Thank you very much.

David K - 4-26-2016 at 12:19 PM

No problem... I know how strong Baja Fever can get, trust me!
You can search Nomad for more on some of those sites... like the onyx springs (soda springs), the mission warehouse, etc.

Here's a couple photos at the onyx spring/ glacier and one of the mission warehouse ruins... note, these were taken back in 2002, so they may look different. One Nomad insists nothing remains of the warehouse. But, I communicated with the archeologist doing a dig there a couple years ago examining the floor stones.

The last photo is from 1958 at the warehouse...

ehall - 4-26-2016 at 02:53 PM

David about covered it all. Have Coco tell you a ghost story about Arristra and then stop at the ruins on your way back to Gonzaga.

David K - 4-26-2016 at 03:04 PM

Ghost story? Las Arrastras? Sounds great!

ehall - 4-26-2016 at 03:35 PM

ya. he spooked a friend that was with me. I don't remember the details, we stayed a little too long.

willardguy - 4-26-2016 at 03:45 PM

Quote: Originally posted by ehall

ya. he spooked a friend that was with me. I don't remember the details, we stayed a little too long.

probably about the grave the road builders unearthed at las arrastras, they collected as many bones as they could and relocated the grave up by the road. if you take a close look there's still a bunch of tiny bones (fingers and toes) that didn't make it in the hole, but I suppose they buried the important ones!

chuckie - 4-26-2016 at 04:25 PM

Or caught a Turtle and made soup?

Udo - 4-26-2016 at 07:06 PM

Let's not bring that thread back! :yawn:

Quote: Originally posted by chuckie

Or caught a Turtle and made soup?

Bajaboy - 4-26-2016 at 07:24 PM

Quote: Originally posted by chuckie

Or caught a Turtle and made soup?

Tastes like chicken :light:

Hook - 4-26-2016 at 07:33 PM

Quote: Originally posted by Udo

Let's not bring that thread back! :yawn:

But-but Chuckies an expert on soup............nobody stirs the pot better on Nomads. :biggrin:

ehall - 4-27-2016 at 04:52 AM

BOLA for lunch would be a nice day trip.

ehall - 4-27-2016 at 04:55 AM

Hot spring at puertocitos would be a nice day trip.

chuckie - 4-27-2016 at 05:48 AM

Geez...Wasn't thinking about that "other" thread...meant soup with the finger bones etc....Substitute "Paloma" for the Turkle if it makes you feel better...

BooJumMan - 4-28-2016 at 03:24 PM

Any "Jeep" trails that head west over the mountains in the vicinity?

David K - 4-28-2016 at 03:25 PM

Quote: Originally posted by BooJumMan

Any "Jeep" trails that head west over the mountains in the vicinity?

The La Turquesa Canyon cross over between Hwy. 1 & 5 is it!

Side trips Map 2002

David K - 4-28-2016 at 03:41 PM

4x4abc - 4-28-2016 at 07:07 PM

east - west is a cool trip past the Turquoise mine (if you know what you are doing - tire pressure, gears etc)
If you want to play it safe, go west - east.

https://carlosnpainter.smugmug.com/Events/Manly-Men-Baja-201...

4x4abc - 4-28-2016 at 07:14 PM

don't forget to check out the mysterious airstrip above the grade

David K - 4-29-2016 at 06:36 AM

Quote: Originally posted by 4x4abc

east - west is a cool trip past the Turquoise mine (if you know what you are doing - tire pressure, gears etc)
If you want to play it safe, go west - east.

https://carlosnpainter.smugmug.com/Events/Manly-Men-Baja-201...

Nice photos of La Turquesa Canyon trail and climbing the grade... then I saw some of the Punta Final (Molino de Lacy) south to Pioneer Mine/ Coco's Corner track that was recently discussed here.

About nine years ago Roy (The squarecircle) with TW and others pioneered the La Turquesa trail in Roy's LR-3. They also needed to clear overgrown brush. Ken Cooke and some Jeeps tried to get through a few months earlier.
All this after I posted photos from the top of the grade looking down, in 2007: http://vivabaja.com/207/

Here are some photos from the bottom of the grade to the monument at the top and beyond toward Hwy. 1:

Barry A. - 4-29-2016 at 08:09 AM

Does an "LR-3" have lockers?

Great pictures.

4x4abc - 4-29-2016 at 09:37 AM

Quote: Originally posted by Barry A.

Does an "LR-3" have lockers?

Great pictures.

doesn't have lockers, but traction control
not very effective on that grade as the spinning tires and dust clouds tell us
tires do not have enough volume of air to be aired down effectively
so, he is chewing up the grade, making it harder for the next vehicles

very much like widow maker
used to be an easy drive - now driven to chits by bad drivers

I drove both around 1990, bumpy but semi graded
10 psi, both lockers, no dust, no glory
almost boring

when we did the cow patty grade (turquoise trail grade) again in 2014 it was a challenge even with lockers
and 10 psi did not do it any longer

David K - 4-29-2016 at 09:45 AM

Quote: Originally posted by Barry A.

Does an "LR-3" have lockers?

Great pictures.

No, the Land Rover has a traction control system similar to Toyota's A-TRAC, an amazing no-slip device that is best described as "automatic lockers" on the front and rear wheels.
Roy went to Mission Santa Maria in 2007 with that LR3 and had no problem with the Widowmaker or any other section. Neither did a I with my '05, rear locker Tacoma.

David K - 4-29-2016 at 09:48 AM

Looks like Harald and I answered at the same time... I do agree with Harald that less air would have been more effective for the climb.

4x4abc - 4-29-2016 at 10:19 AM

here is a tip for airing down that I have not published yet
if you have a really steep grade (like the cow patty grade)
when tilted up, the center of gravity of your truck changes dramatically
meaning the rear carries substantially more weight than the front
if you would have equal tire pressure in all 4, your front would have much less traction as a result
spinning front tires and not making it up the hill are your last concerns
the increased torque load will lead to broken rear axles (even wonder why Jeeps usually break the rear?)
your way out is to have the front aired down to 40-50% of the rear
that will create equal traction on all 4 (that's why they invented WD in the first place)

so, on our last trip up the grade I had the rear at 10 psi and the front at 4 psi
no slipping, no dust, no trail destruction

of course you have to have a good compressor (high volume) to correct the front right after.

too lazy, no compressor? You'll pay in broken parts. And you are fugging the trail for the next

David K - 4-29-2016 at 11:04 AM

Quote: Originally posted by 4x4abc

here is a tip for airing down that I have not published yet
if you have a really steep grade (like the cow patty grade)
when tilted up, the center of gravity of your truck changes dramatically
meaning the rear carries substantially more weight than the front
if you would have equal tire pressure in all 4, your front would have much less traction as a result
spinning front tires and not making it up the hill are your last concerns
the increased torque load will lead to broken rear axles (even wonder why Jeeps usually break the rear?)
your way out is to have the front aired down to 40-50% of the rear
that will create equal traction on all 4 (that's why they invented WD in the first place)

so, on our last trip up the grade I had the rear at 10 psi and the front at 4 psi
no slipping, no dust, no trail destruction

of course you have to have a good compressor (high volume) to correct the front right after.

too lazy, no compressor? You'll pay in broken parts. And you are fugging the trail for the next

Excellent tip!
This center of gravity shift, when climbing, is also why a rear locker is far more valuable than a front locker (for non-electronic traction controlled rigs) if you have funds for just one locker and wonder which axle to put it on!

David K - 4-29-2016 at 11:16 AM

Here is Roy climbing the Widowmaker, May 2007. I was at the top and Baja Angel was at the bottom photographing:

4x4abc - 4-29-2016 at 01:05 PM

Quote: Originally posted by David K

one locker is a bad idea!
one locker plus traction control is kinda acceptable
like I said before, with most of the torque (due to the locker) on the rear axle, it is prone to breaking
any torque not transformed into movement will go into stressing vital metal parts

David K - 4-29-2016 at 01:43 PM

Quote: Originally posted by 4x4abc

Quote: Originally posted by David K

Well, lockers are usually selectable and few vehicles come with front and rear lockers. The Jeep Rubicon, has front and rear selectable lockers yet some Jeepers don't always use them or use them both... Here's a video of a Rubicon that had to be pulled out of a rut in the road:

The Tacoma Off Road has a factory rear locker (selectable) and is advertised for emergency use only (to get unstuck). Since 2009, the 4WD Off Road Tacoma has A-TRAC, and the locker is really just in one's 'back pocket' now. The A-TRAC has never failed me, and where I needed the locker on my '01 and '05 Tacomas (for places like the Widowmaker), my A-TRAC Tacoma doesn't need it.

Traction is an interesting science... and one thing anyone can do to improve traction or get unstuck is to LOWER the air pressure in their tires!

[Edited on 4-29-2016 by David K]

4x4abc - 4-29-2016 at 03:53 PM

good instructional video of what NOT to do

too much air in the tires of the Rubicon (especially the front - remember CG?)
front locker not used

winching vehicle too close to winched vehicle (at this length, winch has less than 40% of it's pull - maximum pull only when cable is all out)
winch cable handled without gloves
looks like (correct me, if I am wrong) that winch is hooked up to winch
woman steps over winch line
winched vehicle uses too much gas when pulled (overrunning cable)

I would have used a few rocks in the rut to ease the climbing angle
if the winch were absolutely necessary, I would have used the winch only (safer)
if time were of the essence, a tow strap tandem pull would have been much faster

just observations to make things safer next time (there will be many next times) - all those things are very common mistakes, so don't feel bad about it.

Below is when winching gets more involved

David K - 4-30-2016 at 10:07 AM

That is quite a photo, Harald... Somehow, the "fun" of four wheeling like that escapes me! LOL

4x4abc - 4-30-2016 at 10:58 AM

4WD was invented for work - this was work. I had to train some clients for the impossible.

willardguy - 4-30-2016 at 11:01 AM

harald, did your mercedes come with a factory FRONT locker?

4x4abc - 4-30-2016 at 11:08 AM

Quote: Originally posted by willardguy

harald, did your mercedes come with a factory FRONT locker?

of course - a professional 4WD (Unimog, Pinzgauer, Rubicon, G, Toyota before 2000 etc) has to have lockable center font and rear - otherwise it is not a serious 4WD.

4x4abc - 4-30-2016 at 11:10 AM

Quote: Originally posted by soulpatch

That is awesome.... wow!

So, when I do buy a vehicle I need to have front and rear lockers... it only makes sense.

I am looking at the VW Amarok crew cab when I do make the jump.... I need a daily driver, a work truck and something we can camp out of for surf trips and interior trips during the summer.

the Amarok is a pavement vehicle that can sometimes (not too much) be taken to play in the dirt

mtgoat666 - 4-30-2016 at 11:24 AM

Quote: Originally posted by 4x4abc

Quote: Originally posted by Barry A.

Does an "LR-3" have lockers?

Great pictures.

responsible people that respect the wilderness strive to tread lightly, leave no trace.
once again we see photoblogging of nomads treading heavily, leaving traces, cutting brush, creating road scars where road scars had previously healed,...

get out of your car and walk!

[Edited on 4-30-2016 by mtgoat666]

chippy - 4-30-2016 at 12:00 PM

Quote: Originally posted by 4x4abc

Quote: Originally posted by soulpatch

the Amarok is a pavement vehicle that can sometimes (not too much) be taken to play in the dirt

That pretty much describes all 4x4 pick ups :light:

.
The Amarok holds its own offroad.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=clWLYWCDrHIhttps://www.youtu...

These are pretty much stock Amaroks with decent tires.

[Edited on 4-30-2016 by chippy]

David K - 4-30-2016 at 12:10 PM

Hey goat, what is it called when they built a paved highway through the deserts of Baja California and bulldozed down millions of cardon and cirio trees so you could zip down the peninsula on pavement? The dirt road we drove to La Paz on in 1966 passed between and in the shadows of those magnificent trees. The clear-cut of all life, hundreds of feet wide for a 19 ft. wide highway was insane, IMO.

4x4abc - 4-30-2016 at 12:29 PM

Quote: Originally posted by David K

David,

it is not a numbers game. It is not about rational arguments. The one who see nature suffering are very emotional. Have you ever argued with someone who is emotional (like your wife)? You know the outcome.

chuckie - 4-30-2016 at 12:39 PM

DK? That is called progress....Millions? of Cardon and Cirios? Sheeeesh... :?:

mtgoat666 - 4-30-2016 at 12:53 PM

Quote: Originally posted by 4x4abc

Quote: Originally posted by David K

Hey goat, what is it called when they built a paved highway through the deserts of Baja California and bulldozed down millions of cardon and cirio trees so you could zip down the peninsula on pavement? The dirt road we drove to La Paz on in 1966 passed between and in the shadows of those magnificent trees. The clear-cut of all life, hundreds of feet wide for a 19 ft. wide highway was insane, IMO.[/
David,
it is not a numbers game. It is not about rational arguments. The one who see nature suffering are very emotional. Have you ever argued with someone who is emotional (like your wife)? You know the outcome.

Crickey! You 2 are quite the egotistical gas bags, we'll have to have you two duel for the title of "chief nomad bloviating blowhard"

David K - 4-30-2016 at 12:53 PM

It is not as noticeable after 43 years, but the scar across central Baja was great as they clear-cut through the forests of giant cardon and all other life.

Now, you seem to not get why I mentioned that, above? I was pointing out mt.goat's hypocrisy that he says nothing critical of the destruction of Nature if it suits his needs, but a little brush trimming or moving some rocks by Harald or other off roaders is somehow bad.

mtgoat666 - 4-30-2016 at 12:55 PM

Quote: Originally posted by David K

It is not as noticeable after 43 years, but the scar across central Baja was great as they clear-cut through the forests of giant cardon and all other life.

Now, you seem to not get why I mentioned that, above? I was pointing out mt.goat's hypocrisy that he says nothing critical of the destruction of Nature if it suits his needs, but a little brush trimming or moving some rocks by Harald or other off roaders is somehow bad.

You are comparing apples and oranges (which also happen to be 2 fruits with more sense than you)

David K - 4-30-2016 at 01:00 PM

So it is okay to plow down thousands of acres of trees, that may be hundreds of years old, so you can have a highway, but it is bad if Harald improves an old dirt road so that he may drive it, slowly in 4WD???

Yes, pretty fruity there, goat!

Back on topic...

DosMars - 5-1-2016 at 04:17 AM

Make sure you swing by Papa Fernandez place for lunch. A really nice place with old photos from back in the day. Look for the sign just after the bridge on the way into Gonzaga.
On the way out, just past the landing strip, swing right and check out the old hand dug, rock lined well. Not sure, but I'd heard it was found and cleared out by some of the early ecplorers, providing them a fresh water source & making it possible to settle the area.

-Mark...

chuckie - 5-1-2016 at 05:55 AM

That is/was a great place...I remember that well...and Papa...

David K - 5-1-2016 at 09:47 AM

Quote: Originally posted by DosMars

Make sure you swing by Papa Fernandez place for lunch. A really nice place with old photos from back in the day. Look for the sign just after the bridge on the way into Gonzaga.
On the way out, just past the landing strip, swing right and check out the old hand dug, rock lined well. Not sure, but I'd heard it was found and cleared out by some of the early ecplorers, providing them a fresh water source & making it possible to settle the area.

-Mark...

You can read about the well as it was described in the 1962 Lower California Guidebook.

Mile 223.6 (from Mexicali) is the turnoff to Papa Fernandez' camp.
Mile 225.2 is a trail over to the warehouse ruins between Papa's and Alfonsina's.
Mile 226.7 is the road to Alfonsina's...

David K - 5-1-2016 at 10:04 AM

The well, recent photo from Dr. Eric Ritter.

Looking down the well.

Photo of the warehouse taken by the author of the guidebook, 1958.

Archeological dig onto the floor of the warehouse, a few years ago:

4x4abc - 5-1-2016 at 10:48 AM

Quote: Originally posted by mtgoat666

do you ever trim anything in your garden? How do you live with the thought that thousands of organisms had to be killed to create space for your house? Your freeway? Your airport?

Bet you feel bad about it. I do too. How do we get out of this dilemma?
Ultimately:

Like all other animals on this planet, we leave a footprint. Trails. Roads. Mines. Farms. Cities. You can live with it and minimized impact. Or you can deal with it like a Catholic. Feel bad about everything we do. To make up for it, you want to save some butterflies. Some old roads.

You must really hate archaeologists. They dig up chit that nature had "reclaimed" a very long time ago.

I am one of the founding members of TreadLightly. You will never see traces of where I went.
And that bush I clipped? What's the difference between me clipping it and a cow eating it?
The rocks I moved to prevent damage to my truck? What's the difference between my few rocks and a hurricane carving a new path moving a few million of rocks?

Nature is violent. Nothing harmonic or well balanced about it. How do you think Grand Canyon was created. Not by some divine massages. It was a succession of many many violent floods killing and maiming all life in it's path. Scaring the surface of the planet beyond comprehension. Now we marvel at the "beauty" of it.

this is the only sticker on my truck.

I have had more than one guy sticking a gun in my face when I reminded them to tread lightly. But maybe I was wrong. Maybe treading lightly is a misguided romantic idea of keeping things like they were yesterday.

Here is a revolutionary thought. What if everything we do is good. Everything. Even the bad stuff is good. Good for evolution. Good for improving what we have. Good to sort out which design of the whole system should go on. I feel pretty good about it. Add religion, if you like. Not that outdated old book, of course. We are in the process of writing the new one.

David K - 5-1-2016 at 11:21 AM

Of interest, while Gerhard & Gulick said the bay was uninhabited for lack of water, the diary of Consag (1746) describes many Indians in the area and water was found perhaps by hand-dug shallow wells?

Here is Consag's map published in 1747... Notice the bay, named by Consag, as shown (with the island in the middle).

The village (ranchería) of La Visitación is shown just north of Gonzaga and San Estanislao seemingly at Gonzaga.

Read Consag's own words... the descriptions are a bit confused... on pages 66-71. San Fermin (could it be today's Puertecitos, at low tide?) and San Felipe (San Phelipe de Jesus)are on page 74. >>>

https://archive.org/stream/lifeworksofrever00kons#page/n91/m...

Barry A. - 5-1-2016 at 12:13 PM

Great info, David K, as always.

Also, I think that 4x4abc's take on TREAD LIGHTLY etc. is right-on!!!

Barry

mtgoat666 - 5-1-2016 at 12:20 PM

The problem is not one person going off-roading following tread lightly,...
The problem is the 4000 people that follow along after the first person opens to path,...
The damage is done.
All over baja you can find scars and trash of all the yahoos that followed along after mr thoughtful and gentle abc-boy came thru with his ego and toys

Opening roads in wilderness is irresponsible. You off-roaders should Stick to established roads.

Quote: Originally posted by 4x4abc

Quote: Originally posted by mtgoat666

Barry A. - 5-1-2016 at 01:43 PM

So, Goat, you want to punish the vast majority for the transgressions of a few that may trash an area subsequently. This sort of thinking taken to the extreme would have us all banned from a LOT of things, and it just drives me nuts as a previous LE officer, Wilderness Ranger and Supervisor.

BLM decision-makers with biased blinders on closed dozens of "4x4 trails" and roads in the CA desert based on this type thinking, essentially depriving thousands from enjoying their public lands, and resulting in very low-use areas throughout the western USA. And guess what (duh) the nasty-folks that had no respect for the land or laws drove/drive on these "closed" roads anyway, and most of the law-abiding are just kept out, never to have a chance to see the areas at all. That makes no sense to me unless you are one of the folks that does not want to use or see the area's at all, and/or are so selfish that you want the area's all to yourselves. National Parks are one thing---------but locking-up much of the west is another, IMO.

The same logic applies to Baja CA, IMO, but any damage to the lands is relatively minimal, at most. Adequate "protection" is always in the eye of the beholder, but should not be taken to extremes by knee-jerk narrow-minded decisions either way, IMO.

I applaud your instincts, but am appalled by your lack of common-sense, and insensitivity to other's that don't agree with you, in this instance.

Barry

My objective was to Tread Lightly! (front/rear lockers were engaged, but not digging)

Ken Cooke - 5-1-2016 at 02:01 PM

Quote: Originally posted by David K

Here's a video of a Rubicon that had to be pulled out of a rut in the road:

[Edited on 4-29-2016 by David K]

My rear differential was high-centered, and I really didn't want to push hard on the drivetrain with the Jeep loaded down with gear and water inside of it. I was able to back out and drive around this obstacle, but the crevace appeared doable. I will probably try it again, and take a different line.

[/URL]

[Edited on 5-1-2016 by Ken Cooke]

Ken Cooke - 5-1-2016 at 02:16 PM

La Turquesa-area

Coco's Corner (me pictured w/ex-wife) November 2006

Great picnic stop north of Gonzaga Bay

4x4abc - 5-1-2016 at 02:47 PM

Quote: Originally posted by mtgoat666

The problem is not one person going off-roading following tread lightly,...
The problem is the 4000 people that follow along after the first person opens to path,...
The damage is done.
All over baja you can find scars and trash of all the yahoos that followed along after mr thoughtful and gentle abc-boy came thru with his ego and toys

Opening roads in wilderness is irresponsible. You off-roaders should Stick to established roads.

so, following your philosophy the padres founding San Diego were not the problem - you are. You followed among 1.4 million others.

Since tire tracks already cause you pain - in your book of values, how do you rate the tourist developments in Baja (Cabo etc)? Are they scars?

Good that you mention trash. Trash is a very big problem in Baja. As you noticed, I travel a bit away from the highways. That way I see what's behind the (beautiful) facades. Some ugly trash piles are hidden behind the developments of Gringos. The neater the community - the bigger the trash pile(s).

"Opening roads in wilderness is irresponsible." Right on! The padres must be turning in their graves. What an irresponsible act to create the Camino Real! Shame on them.

chuckie - 5-1-2016 at 03:56 PM

Well spoke Harald...years ago, a Brit wrote a book "Earth, a living organism" Illustrating that our earth is a work in process...And that it is ever changing for many reasons..one of which is us...Eventually, he surmises, it will die,,,as most other organisms do.....given time....I am by no means smart enough to argue that concept....it IS changing faster all the time...One cant go back....only forward..good or bad..I have my own opinion on that...

4x4abc - 5-1-2016 at 04:32 PM

Quote: Originally posted by chuckie

Well spoke Harald...years ago, a Brit wrote a book "Earth, a living organism" Illustrating that our earth is a work in process...And that it is ever changing for many reasons..one of which is us...Eventually, he surmises, it will die,,,as most other organisms do.....given time....I am by no means smart enough to argue that concept....it IS changing faster all the time...One cant go back....only forward..good or bad..I have my own opinion on that...

I remember that book very well. Re-read it just afew months ago. Great hypothesis by Jams Lovelock. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaia_hypothesis

Charlie Nichols - 5-2-2016 at 06:55 AM

To those of you that responded (well, most of you anyway), thank you. I'll be doing some more research, especially regarding the info that David K. gave. Much appreciated.

David K - 5-2-2016 at 09:10 PM

You are very welcome...
Have a great time...
Remember, things may change and so use the information for general info.
Please post a trip report when you get home!