BajaNomad

The United States Occupation of Baja California 1846-1848 (July Baja Bound Article)

David K - 7-17-2016 at 10:15 AM

My article in the July edition of Baja Bound:

https://www.bajabound.com/bajaadventures/bajatravel/occupati...



[Edited on 9-1-2016 by David K]

Udo - 7-17-2016 at 10:47 AM

Great story, DK!!

Mexitron - 7-17-2016 at 11:12 AM


Good read David! Imagine what Baja would be like if the US had taken it...lucky thing I think.

David K - 7-17-2016 at 11:16 AM

I am sure glad we gave it back to Mexico! There would be so much less for us to enjoy if it was fenced and paved 50+ years ago (bad enough that it is happening now)!

SFandH - 7-17-2016 at 11:40 AM

Just to be a contrarian...........

I wonder what it would look like now if the US negotiated with Mexico to keep it. Perhaps like the central and northern California, Oregon and Washington coastlines? The mess that is Tijuana wouldn't exist. Which do you prefer, TJ or San Diego?

Cabo might have been done with bit more planning. The eyesore that is Santa Rosalia would probably be a bit better.

Not sure how much it would be developed given the lack of water.



[Edited on 7-17-2016 by SFandH]

David K - 7-17-2016 at 11:53 AM

Quote: Originally posted by SFandH  
Just to be a contrarian...........

Not sure how much it would be developed given the lack of water.



I would guess that in northern Baja, dams (more dams) would have been built to support agriculture and human needs in the early 1900s, as was done in Alta California back then.

The central desert may not have changed much under the U.S., other than more prosperous mining, perhaps? I think it might have resembled a drive through the Mojave or Arizona deserts with small towns, abandoned mines, etc.?

mtgoat666 - 7-17-2016 at 12:20 PM

Quote: Originally posted by Mexitron  

Good read David! Imagine what Baja would be like if the US had taken it...


Ensenada would look like Dana Pt/Newport/Balboa Island. TJ would look like Santa Ana. BOLA would be Vegas-south. Cabo would be like Waikiki. And the whole central desert and seven sisters would be a mix of military bombing ranges and BLM land. San Felipe would still be a chithole :lol::lol:

TMW - 7-17-2016 at 12:24 PM

Interesting, thanks DK.

I wonder if any of the Mexicans that left La Paz and San José del Cabo became well to do or powerful families in CA.

SFandH - 7-17-2016 at 12:36 PM

Quote: Originally posted by mtgoat666  
Quote: Originally posted by Mexitron  

Good read David! Imagine what Baja would be like if the US had taken it...


Ensenada would look like Dana Pt/Newport/Balboa Island. TJ would look like Santa Ana. BOLA would be Vegas-south. Cabo would be like Waikiki. And the whole central desert and seven sisters would be a mix of military bombing ranges and BLM land.


:lol:

You're probably right. And I wouldn't be able to spend my winters in my trailer a few feet from the water on Bahia Concepcion with my boat anchored out front for $200 or so per month.

JC43 - 7-17-2016 at 01:32 PM

This is what I am thinking about this: The United States not only were taking away much land from Mexico by war and force. Like California, Nevada, New Mexico and Texas. They also occupied illegally Hawaii. And others parts of the world.
This is how the world sees the past talking about the United States of America: First there came those bad boys from Europe. Gangsters. Criminals and such. No matter if from England, Germany Ireland etc.(No one who had a good job or a good business in Europe, left) Then those bad boys killed the Indians to get more land. When most of the Indians were dead, there was nothing to kill anymore. So the bad boys killed the buffalos close to distinction. Millions of buffalos just for the fun of killing! As that was done and nothing to kill anymore, they killed each other. North against South.
Today there is nothing to kill inside the US territory, the US (Politicians) are looking at other states where they can kill somebody. For sure Saddam Hussein was not an Angel. But he had his country under control. With the Iraq war and killing tens of thousands civilians, they created ISIS. Now they are pretending to fight ISIS, killing them, the terrorist are fighting back. 9/11 and Paris and Nice and London and others like Belgium are evidence to what I am saying.
Who can be proud of that?
And name me one Mexican who is honestly saying: I love the United States People. (other than he is making business and looking after $$$)

O.K., I am awaiting a chitstorm now for posting the truth.

Back to the topic. We should be happy that Baja is Mexican territory. With the US owning this land it would be not as interesting, lovable and eager to explore - for all of us.

TMW - 7-17-2016 at 01:40 PM

I know several Mexicans, well Mexican Americans, who came from Mexico that love the U.S. I have never had that discussion with a Mexican in Mexico.

JC43 - 7-17-2016 at 02:03 PM

Quote: Originally posted by TMW  
I know several Mexicans, well Mexican Americans, who came from Mexico that love the U.S. I have never had that discussion with a Mexican in Mexico.


TMW, you are absolutely correct. There are hundreds, no thousand of Mexicans eager to cross the border and find a job inside the US. Those who are crossing the border illegally are the best evidence to that. And most of them finding a job (legally or not) or even setting up their own company if they are legal, will love the US. No doubt.
What I was saying is, listen to a Mexican who is talking to another Mexican about this. You might find out that I posted the truth. If you, as an US citizen, are asking a Mexican, you might not get the honest answer.
Read David K`s article in Baja bound. The Mexicans are friendly by nature. Even if occupied, they remain friendly - at first(!)

Lee - 7-17-2016 at 02:06 PM

Quote: Originally posted by JC43  

Back to the topic. We should be happy that Baja is Mexican territory. With the US owning this land it would be not as interesting, lovable and eager to explore - for all of us.


Aren't the comparisons between the US and Baja apples/oranges? How is the area between San Diego and Seattle not interesting and explorable? Makes me think some people don't know the West Coast.

It's interesting that, with the exception of a few here, these kind of comments come from gringoes who don't live SOB. Fantasies and wistful dreaming is a great escape when you're caught up in the rat race. Fewer laws SOB balanced with rampant corruption isn't a deal.

These gringoes probably think since corruption hasn't effected them, it doesn't exist.

If Central California had warm Winters, I would be skipping Baja. And I love Baja. But I don't love it more than California.

All those unhappy folks whinning about the unfair comparisons should live full time in Baja awhile to find out if Paradise exists. Ask Dennis about living in Baja.

SFandH - 7-17-2016 at 02:20 PM

Quote: Originally posted by Lee  
How is the area between San Diego and Seattle not interesting and explorable? Makes me think some people don't know the West Coast.



I mentioned the west coast in a post above and if you are referring to me you misunderstood my post. I was thinking that if the US kept baja much of its coastline would still be a pretty and desirable place, just as much of the US coastline is. I was writing contrary to the popular opinion that baja would be ruined if owned by the US.

DENNIS - 7-17-2016 at 02:41 PM

Quote: Originally posted by JC43  
This is what I am thinking about this: The United States not only were taking away much land from Mexico by war and force. Like California, Nevada, New Mexico and Texas. They also occupied illegally Hawaii. And others parts of the world.
This is how the world sees the past talking about the United States of America: First there came those bad boys from Europe. Gangsters. Criminals and such. No matter if from England, Germany Ireland etc.(No one who had a good job or a good business in Europe, left) Then those bad boys killed the Indians to get more land. When most of the Indians were dead, there was nothing to kill anymore. So the bad boys killed the buffalos close to distinction. Millions of buffalos just for the fun of killing! As that was done and nothing to kill anymore, they killed each other. North against South.
Today there is nothing to kill inside the US territory, the US (Politicians) are looking at other states where they can kill somebody. For sure Saddam Hussein was not an Angel. But he had his country under control. With the Iraq war and killing tens of thousands civilians, they created ISIS. Now they are pretending to fight ISIS, killing them, the terrorist are fighting back. 9/11 and Paris and Nice and London and others like Belgium are evidence to what I am saying.
Who can be proud of that?
And name me one Mexican who is honestly saying: I love the United States People. (other than he is making business and looking after $$$)

O.K., I am awaiting a chitstorm now for posting the truth.

Back to the topic. We should be happy that Baja is Mexican territory. With the US owning this land it would be not as interesting, lovable and eager to explore - for all of us.



This must be the most ignorant diatribe of misquoted fact, history and current events that I have ever seen here.
I won't even attempt to reply point to point.


Thanks for the mention, Mr. Lee.




.

[Edited on 7-17-2016 by DENNIS]

Lee - 7-17-2016 at 02:56 PM

Quote: Originally posted by SFandH  
Quote: Originally posted by Lee  
How is the area between San Diego and Seattle not interesting and explorable? Makes me think some people don't know the West Coast.



I mentioned the west coast in a post above and if you are referring to me you misunderstood my post. I was thinking that if the US kept baja much of its coastline would still be a pretty and desirable place, just as much of the US coastline is. I was writing contrary to the popular opinion that baja would be ruined if owned by the US.


Wasn't referring to you or anyone in particular. Understood your post perfectly. And I agree with it. US-owned Baja would still be great.

If Cabo were more like Waikiki, I would love it even more.

DENNIS - 7-17-2016 at 03:13 PM


And the sheeit keeps runnin' downhill. What is it, JC? Don't you read books? Are you so effing arrogant that you believe you are loved and respected for what you are, American, by luck of the draw?
Mexicans don't love Americans as a group. They are taught from pre-school that Americans are the cause of their dismal grief that in reality was, and is, the result of their own government.
They...individuals, may appreciate some Americans, not for what they are, but who they are individually.
Stop with your "I just love Mexicans" p-nut gallery crap. Buy some books. Act your place in the scheme of things.



.




[Edited on 7-17-2016 by DENNIS]

JC43 - 7-17-2016 at 03:30 PM

Quote: Originally posted by DENNIS  

And the sheeit keeps runnin' downhill. What is it, JC? Don't you read books? Are you so effing arrogant that you believe you are loved and respected for what you are, American, by luck of the draw?
Mexicans don't love Americans as a group. They are taught from pre-school that Americans are the cause of their dismal grief that in reality was, and is, the result of their own government.
They...individuals, may appreciate some Americans, not for what they are, but who they are individually.
Stop with your "I just love Mexicans" p-nut gallery crap. Buy some books. Act your place in the scheme of things.
[Edited on 7-17-2016 by DENNIS]


Dennis, you forgot some important words in your post.
Like `Buy some American books´; Or, `Act your place in the American scheme of things´;
And how do you know what Mexican kids are taught in pre-school??? Well, let make me a guess: Your understanding of what is going on in this world is pre-school understanding. Right? Black and White thinking.
Lets make it clear. I do not want to be loved by folks like you. My standard are somehow higher than yours. And my friends are same. Not such crappy thinking like you. No thinking behind (horse)blinkers.
End of discussion.

DENNIS - 7-17-2016 at 04:03 PM




I'm having to guess your understanding of Mexican Spanish es un poco...no.....mucho menos de cero, pero quién lo necesita?

motoged - 7-17-2016 at 05:03 PM

David,
An interesting historical note....

Seems like the invasion by us nortenos is continuing...:biggrin:

David K - 7-22-2016 at 03:35 PM

Quote: Originally posted by motoged  
David,
An interesting historical note....

Seems like the invasion by us nortenos is continuing...:biggrin:


Would that be all those Canadians coming south, eh?

[Edited on 7-23-2016 by David K]

4x4abc - 7-22-2016 at 08:38 PM

Quote: Originally posted by JC43  
This is what I am thinking about this: The United States not only were taking away much land from Mexico by war and force. Like California, Nevada, New Mexico and Texas. They also occupied illegally Hawaii. And others parts of the world.
This is how the world sees the past talking about the United States of America: First there came those bad boys from Europe. Gangsters. Criminals and such. No matter if from England, Germany Ireland etc.(No one who had a good job or a good business in Europe, left) Then those bad boys killed the Indians to get more land. When most of the Indians were dead, there was nothing to kill anymore. So the bad boys killed the buffalos close to distinction. Millions of buffalos just for the fun of killing! As that was done and nothing to kill anymore, they killed each other. North against South.
Today there is nothing to kill inside the US territory, the US (Politicians) are looking at other states where they can kill somebody. For sure Saddam Hussein was not an Angel. But he had his country under control. With the Iraq war and killing tens of thousands civilians, they created ISIS. Now they are pretending to fight ISIS, killing them, the terrorist are fighting back. 9/11 and Paris and Nice and London and others like Belgium are evidence to what I am saying.
Who can be proud of that?
And name me one Mexican who is honestly saying: I love the United States People. (other than he is making business and looking after $$$)

O.K., I am awaiting a chitstorm now for posting the truth.

Back to the topic. We should be happy that Baja is Mexican territory. With the US owning this land it would be not as interesting, lovable and eager to explore - for all of us.


I like your view!

4x4abc - 7-22-2016 at 09:02 PM

So, David, you write: "Tensions between the United States and Mexico grew when the U.S. annexed the Republic of Texas on March 1, 1845, a territory Mexico still considered its own."

Why would those testy Mexicans consider their territory, their territory? Why wouldn't they just allow it to be taken away by illegal settlers on their land? How dare they insist it was their land. Similarities to current events between 2 other countries are purely coincidental.

That is not kind towards a country that has accepted you with open arms for many years.

David K - 7-22-2016 at 09:08 PM

This is a history article and not an op-ed piece. I love Mexico.

4x4abc - 7-22-2016 at 09:11 PM

"...a territory Mexico still considered its own." is opinion

mtgoat666 - 7-22-2016 at 09:19 PM

Quote: Originally posted by David K  

The United States Occupation of Baja California 1846-1848 (A Baja Bound Article)

My article in the July edition of Baja Bound

[Edited on 7-17-2016 by David K]


I suppose in 1846 there were maybe 100 people in all of Baja. Probably 99 of them were unaware of the USA occupation force arriving and then leaving, eh?

Contrast this to 2016 and there are a bazillion people in baja and all bazillion are aware that the Donald plans to invade the TJ to take money from orphans and widows so he can build a wall.

motoged - 7-22-2016 at 09:52 PM

Quote: Originally posted by David K  
Quote: Originally posted by motoged  
David,
An interesting historical note....
Seems like the invasion by us nortenos is continuing...:biggrin:

Would that be all those Canadians coming south, eh?

[Edited on 7-23-2016 by David K]


David,
Well.....lots of Canadians enjoy Baja ... but I was also including US citizens in my comment about people from north of Mexico coming and , in some ways, "taking over" with their cultural norms/preferences.

A previous poster mentioned that it would be nice if Cabo could be more like Waikiki....I wonder if that poster has seen the masses of homeless living on Oahu's west coast....scary scene of cultural decay...Cabo is better in my opinion (and I avoid it).



daveB - 7-22-2016 at 11:17 PM

Interesting article DK. The Mexican-American war had many facets that played out over those years. Leading up to it, the Texas Mexican territory was allowing new settlement and most of these were from the east, whereas farther west in the region of New Mexico, eastern settlers were not permitted to stay. Those Mexican folks paid a heavy price for those rules, once the US Army arrived.

My Great Grandfather had two older brothers who volunteered to join the war effort, sailing to Santa Cruz. One died in Mexico City, leaving a wife and three children. There is a large American Cemetary in Mexico City, where many thousands of US soldiers lie, who mostly fell victim of disease.

It was a war that was totally one- sided, that Mexico never had a chance. Many prominent Americans cut their teeth during the war, from Ulysses S Grant to Jefferson Davis. Some believed that it was a springboard to the Civil War. It provided a rapidly growing nation clear sailing to spread across the breadth of North America. You know, from the halls of Montezuma... they squeezed hard enough to take over in the North America where the Spaniards had come first to bring European values.

David K - 7-23-2016 at 07:38 AM

Thank you daveB for that story!

Goat, you would be really amazed if you got the facts right about things (100 people in Baja California in 1846, seriously?)

Harald, yes Mexico did consider all the vast lands originally claimed by Spain as its own. That was not my opinion, but maybe was Mexico's opinion? Even to recent years, the people of Baja California have felt unrepresented and ignored by politicians in Mexico City. A paved road didn't exist from north to south until 1973! Even today, there is a group called Republica de Baja California seeking independence from Mexico City government!

mtgoat666 - 7-23-2016 at 07:54 AM

Quote: Originally posted by David K  

Goat, you would be really amazed if you got the facts right about things (100 people in Baja California in 1846, seriously?)


Dk,
So tell us what you think the population was in 1846.

4x4abc - 7-23-2016 at 07:59 AM

Quote: Originally posted by David K  
Thank you daveB for that story!

Goat, you would be really amazed if you got the facts right about things (100 people in Baja California in 1846, seriously?)

Harald, yes Mexico did consider all the vast lands originally claimed by Spain as its own. That was not my opinion, but maybe was Mexico's opinion? Even to recent years, the people of Baja California have felt unrepresented and ignored by politicians in Mexico City. A paved road didn't exist from north to south until 1973! Even today, there is a group called Republica de Baja California seeking independence from Mexico City government!


why would there be a "still" in the sentence?
>a territory Mexico still considered its own<

David K - 7-23-2016 at 08:41 AM

Quote: Originally posted by mtgoat666  
Quote: Originally posted by David K  

Goat, you would be really amazed if you got the facts right about things (100 people in Baja California in 1846, seriously?)


Dk,
So tell us what you think the population was in 1846.


Dozens and dozens of towns each with hundreds of people, then those not in towns... literally thousands.

Doing a quick check of some of the books...

1850: 7,500 in just the south (Baja Sur) [Sketches of Two Oceans, 1866]
1852: 12,000 [A History of Lower California,1960, p.409]
1867: 26,000 for the entire peninsula [Lower California Frontier, 1870]

David K - 7-23-2016 at 08:43 AM

Quote: Originally posted by 4x4abc  
Quote: Originally posted by David K  
Thank you daveB for that story!

Goat, you would be really amazed if you got the facts right about things (100 people in Baja California in 1846, seriously?)

Harald, yes Mexico did consider all the vast lands originally claimed by Spain as its own. That was not my opinion, but maybe was Mexico's opinion? Even to recent years, the people of Baja California have felt unrepresented and ignored by politicians in Mexico City. A paved road didn't exist from north to south until 1973! Even today, there is a group called Republica de Baja California seeking independence from Mexico City government!


why would there be a "still" in the sentence?
>a territory Mexico still considered its own<


"Still" means "has not changed" (since Mexico declared its independence).