BajaNomad - Where is the indignation?

Where is the indignation?

BajaTed - 3-31-2017 at 08:52 AM

Five governors and one A.G. busted by the U.S. for drugs is the current count going right now.

Why is it as the social institutions come apart at the seams there is no indignation and just endless resignation to more of the status quo by the citizenry.

Is Plumo or Plata that efficient???
Why can't the good old capitalisim concept for everyone win the battle?

bajaguy - 3-31-2017 at 09:17 AM

Just business as usual

Quote: Originally posted by BajaTed

Five governors and one A.G. busted by the U.S. for drugs is the current count going right now.

Why is it as the social institutions come apart at the seams there is no indignation and just endless resignation to more of the status quo by the citizenry.

Is Plumo or Plata that efficient???
Why can't the good old capitalisim concept for everyone win the battle?

MitchMan - 3-31-2017 at 09:57 AM

Capitalism as the answer? Well, as far as I know the mafia, organized crime, the drug trade...they are all motivated by the profit motive...the same profit motive that is behind legal and legitimate business. Widely known that owners of crime business enterprise have been the very same people that also own legal legitimate businesses. Not a mystery as to why they own both types, legal and illegal...they do it for money.

Don't remember ever seeing it written anywhere that capitalism's theory is restricted to lawful endeavors only. Self-interest, that is the common thread. That is why it is necessary to regulate business to keep capitalism activity LAWFUL. That's not the only reason for business regulation, though. Notice that those that are against business regulation always say that "regulation is bad for business". You never hear those people make distinctions between good regulation and bad regulation, because, they really don't care. They just want to further their 'self-interest' pursuit to make more money no matter what.

Self-interest alone is, in and of itself, amoral. So don't look to capitalism to cure immorality, especially when there is ample historical and current evidence of malfeasance by capitalists everywhere.

[Edited on 3-31-2017 by MitchMan]

chuckie - 3-31-2017 at 10:23 AM

And, in the good old USofA, every day another Washington staffer goes under investigation or inditement (sp) ...AND we sit and take it...MM is correct, it almost seems as if the highest form of capitalism is on the dark side...

norte - 3-31-2017 at 11:38 AM

Come on. There is a lot of indignation out there. Just not on this site.

This site is not for telling anybody about what is out there, the theft, drug use , murder etc.

This a feel good site for trip reports, photos, pats on the backs and occasional family spats.

chuckie - 3-31-2017 at 11:56 AM

I think, actually, that folks who are overinvested in Baja don't want to talk about a lot of these problems for fear of their property values and resale abilities dropping...

Bubba - 3-31-2017 at 02:17 PM

Quote: Originally posted by norte

Come on. There is a lot of indignation out there. Just not on this site.

This site is not for telling anybody about what is out there, the theft, drug use , murder etc.

This a feel good site for trip reports, photos, pats on the backs and occasional family spats.

You are pretty much spot on with this. Promotion and rose colored glasses.

Barry A. - 4-1-2017 at 08:45 AM

"Capitalism" is tolerated and venerated because the alternatives are worse. MitchMan is correct in that some regulation is a good thing, but often the concept of regulation is taken too far, to the detriment of big and small business, and thereby us all. Seldom is "greed" for wealth a personal thing among good people, but rather to secure the security and prosperity of Family, and extended Family, and even community, which is of course "tribalism" of a sort----it's ingrained in most of us. Until we come up with something that works better for the majority we are stuck with Capitalism, in my opinion, and I kind of like it anyway so am more tolerate than I should be of the ills of man. If people exercise personal responsibility for taking care of the system, most of the ills would disappear.

David K - 4-1-2017 at 10:40 AM

Quote: Originally posted by Bubba

Quote: Originally posted by norte

You are pretty much spot on with this. Promotion and rose colored glasses.

Bubba, norte= The purpose of (my) trip reports are to share, to give something back, to help the locals by letting other tourists know what a Baja trip is really like and not what CNN or the New York Times says it's like.

Drug use is not in a trip report because it is either not done in the trip or not witnessed. Crime or harassment is in trip reports. I have yet to be murdered or see a murder, so that is also not in my trip reports.

Barry A. = LIKE

bajabuddha - 4-1-2017 at 11:25 AM

Quote: Originally posted by David K

Quote: Originally posted by Bubba

Quote: Originally posted by norte

.....This a feel good site for trip reports, photos, pats on the backs and occasional family spats.

You are pretty much spot on with this. Promotion and rose colored glasses.

.../AND the occasional quasi-political rant and barb thrown in to enlighten this forum with the usual Special K BULLCHIT POTLICKS..... er, politikkks (a.k.a. FAKE NEWS). :yawn:

David K - 4-1-2017 at 11:43 AM

Fox News also... it doesn't matter. This is about Baja.

norte - 4-1-2017 at 04:10 PM

From indignation to arrogance. How do trip reports help local Mexican families?

Bubba - 4-1-2017 at 04:11 PM

Quote: Originally posted by David K

Quote: Originally posted by Bubba

Quote: Originally posted by norte

You are pretty much spot on with this. Promotion and rose colored glasses.

I wasn't necessarily referring to this site or all posters here. The typical biased mainstream media does a fine job already.

BajaTed - 4-3-2017 at 11:18 AM

On April 11 local indignation might be something to behold as it relates to the fate of the Vaquita in the Northern SoC.

Suggest some darker glasses going forward as the degrees of separation become smaller and smaller

http://mexiconewsdaily.com/news/fishermen-protest-in-sonora-...

Udo - 4-3-2017 at 12:28 PM

:bounce:

Quote: Originally posted by David K

Fox News also... it doesn't matter. This is about Baja.

MitchMan - 4-10-2017 at 11:25 AM

Quote: Originally posted by Barry A.

"Capitalism" is tolerated and venerated because the alternatives are worse. MitchMan is correct in that some regulation is a good thing, but often the concept of regulation is taken too far, to the detriment of big and small business, and thereby us all. Seldom is "greed" for wealth a personal thing among good people, but rather to secure the security and prosperity of Family, and extended Family, and even community, which is of course "tribalism" of a sort----it's ingrained in most of us. Until we come up with something that works better for the majority we are stuck with Capitalism, in my opinion, and I kind of like it anyway so am more tolerate than I should be of the ills of man. If people exercise personal responsibility for taking care of the system, most of the ills would disappear.

There is definitely a better system than capitalism; simply stated, a balanced hybrid of certain socialistic applications and the rest capitalism with appropriate level of regulation.

For example, health care, in the USA, should entirely be converted to Medicare for every single individual in the USA. That includes the ability to bargain with the pharmaceutical companies. Doing the conversion will cover every person with complete comprehensive insurance with no life time limits, no pre-existing conditions, etc. And, the cost of healthcare in the USA would be cut in half. Given that our current healthcare is twice as expensive as the rest of other advanced countries without covering everyone in the USA, massive improvement to the nation's health and economic benefits galore. Win, win. That's just one example.

Broadly stated, for the important necessities, (healthcare being just one) should be much more regulated than other commodities.; more socialistic if you will. Important necessities are, well, necessary. The acquisition of other commodities can be less regulated and more exposed to market based capitalism. These less regulated commodities need regulation to preserve fair and continuing competition, to remove moral hazard, and to preserve public and environmental safety and reduce society's exposure to harmful 'externalities'. In the case of dire necessities such as healthcare, regulation keeps the necessities much more affordable. In the case of other commodities, proper regulation leaves those industries to a higher degree of exposure to market based capitalism. That's a really good thing.

All regulations need to be properly evaluated for cost-benefit in order to determine the optimal extent of regulation.

Market based capitalism per se has the ability to guide production to where it is needed most and eliminate commodities that are not economically viable. That is good as it can prevent waste and promotes efficiency.

Unfettered, unregulated, laissez-faire capitalism doesn't do this in the long run, and, often not even in the short run. That is the mistake that most all people have when they think of capitalism. They naively, ignorantly and mistakenly think that unfettered, unregulated, laissez-faire capitalism is in and of itself an economic and societal panacea and that it works every where, all the time, every time. There have been Nobel Prizes awarded to many economists who have all but proven otherwise.

A hybrid of capitalism and socialism in just the right proportion would be optimal. Most of what would go into the GDP would be sourced in market based capitalism. We can have both. We are smart enough as a country; we have the technology; so far we haven't been "wise" enough as a people to do it.

Wise up, dammit!

El Jefe - 4-10-2017 at 05:44 PM

Vary well said MitchMan.

David K - 4-10-2017 at 07:03 PM

Reading some Karl Marx, are you?

Barry A. - 4-10-2017 at 10:09 PM

Mitchman------------It's that "balanced" business you mention in your first sentence above that worries and confounds me. How do you maintain the "proper balance" between Capitalism and Socialism? If we could, I probably could agree with you. The history of most Government-run systems is not encouraging. I must admit, however, that Medicare seems to work pretty well for we old-timers, so you may be on to something here. (he said optimistically while being pessimistic about our actual chances of making it work well).

BajaTed - 4-11-2017 at 10:16 AM

When the commodity is the mordiba, patrimony, human smuggling and drugs, Its Plumo or Plata and NOT K. Marx at work

I was taught; "Corporations are only allowed to exist by the grace of the societies they operated within".

BTW, Kaiser healthcare is a relic of those times when corporations cared.

Seems times have changed.

MitchMan - 4-11-2017 at 10:44 AM

How you balance things in general has always been a problem. The current economic system we have now is filled with many elements and variables that are always and constantly being balanced. That is what governance and legislation is all about. Our state and federal governments are always passing new laws on an ongoing perpetual basis.

What you have to understand is that many things in life are constantly in flux and are all works in progress (always have been), e.g., your personal relationships (especially with spouses), international geopolitics, how you raise your kids, how politics is being affected with and by social media, how we deal with the environment, one's own personal finances, civil rights, etc., etc., etc. Your life and mine and everyone else's lives are filled with things that are constantly works in progress. Our state, local and federal governments are all works in progress; always have been and will continue to be works in progress.

Barry, if you are thinking that what I propose "must be a system in perfect balance" or it has no validity, then, just about every facet of our lives has no validity such as our spousal relationships, our local, state and federal government, the way you and I have brought up our respective children, even our Constitutional federal government has no validity (you know, there are 27 Constitutional Amendments with more always being contemplated).

The way you maintain as best a balance as possible is the same way we attempt to balance all things of importance. You do it as best you can, constantly monitoring and looking to make changes that improve things and fix other things. That's what politics, Congress and the Supreme Court are all about. The good news is that technology, information gathering, and intelligence is what this country possesses in great amounts together with being an open society with a free press.

Keep in mind that I am not proposing a government run system in its entirety. I propose effective, proportional, necessary, enlightened level of government regulation where appropriate where the true interest of people of this country is the priority which was set out by the founding fathers.

I think market based capitalism should flourish where it is appropriate in as many places as possible; but even that takes a "balanced" level of regulation to sustain itself otherwise you would get over run by monopolies, high prices, devastation to the environment and public health, and complete unfair inequitable thrashing and exploitation of us consumers and much increased disparity of wealth and income beyond our current record breaking levels.

Our current system has yielded a USA that has the worst disparity of wealth in the world among advanced countries, not to mention falling comparisons to those other countries with regard to infant mortality, life spans, lack of upward financial mobility, education levels, and excessive healthcare costs for much less coverage. If you are worried about "balance" as you mentioned above, you should be worried about that imbalance, Barry. I know I am.

You know, that since the election of Reagan, disparity started its steep climb together with household debt and stagnation of income for the bottom 98%, and what is worse, this disparity has squeezed the middle class making it smaller and the ranks of the poor larger while the few at the top are becoming even fewer and ever more rich than ever before. If you want to focus attention on a destructive imbalance that is not in the true interest of the people at large, focus on that.

DavidK, are you finished with your copy of Mein Kampf yet? If so, you might consider reading some other things that will help you understand something about economics, such as Wealth of Nations. You really should broaden your horizons beyond FOX news and Rick Santelli, that way you will be able to engage in a real discussion instead of your being limited to drive-by regurgitated skin headed one liners.

David K - 4-11-2017 at 10:49 AM

Private Enterprise (business/ corporations) survive or grow because the PEOPLE vote for them when they ELECT to buy their product or service. It is wanted or needed or they are out of business. Competition forces fair pricing and improvements.

Socialism (government controlled business) survives at the whim of the political party in control and has no fair competition or need to improve or show a profit. It simply exists on the backs of taxpayers who have no say in how the government program operates, except by waiting (years sometimes) for an election to end the corruption of an over-reaching government. The government makes up laws to keep their programs going without any need for them to show any success at what they were purported to accomplish.

The government has limited duties per our constitution:
To Protect the people from force or fraud.
To only do the things required that the private citizens/ businesses are not able to do.

The people should be in control and the free market puts the people in power.

Barry A. - 4-11-2017 at 11:31 AM

Quote: Originally posted by David K

Private Enterprise (business/ corporations) survive or grow because the PEOPLE vote for them when they ELECT to buy their product or service. It is wanted or needed or they are out of business. Competition forces fair pricing and improvements.

Socialism (government controlled business) survives at the whim of the political party in control and has no fair competition or need to improve or show a profit. It simply exists on the backs of taxpayers who have no say in how the government program operates, except by waiting (years sometimes) for an election to end the corruption of an over-reaching government. The government makes up laws to keep their programs going without any need for them to show any success at what they were purported to accomplish.

The government has limited duties per our constitution:
To Protect the people from force or fraud.
To only do the things required that the private citizens/ businesses are not able to do.

The people should be in control and the free market puts the people in power.

Yep, you are right, and PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY exercised by all citizens able, in all ways available, is the only real lasting answer to a successful Free society. Well said, David. It's always worked for me.

On edit: PS---"Rick Santelli" is one of my heroes, MitchMan, along with Larry Kudlow, Art Laffer, and the late Jack Kemp.

[Edited on 4-11-2017 by Barry A.]

MitchMan - 4-12-2017 at 08:00 AM

Private Enterprise (business/ corporations) survive or grow because the PEOPLE vote for them when they ELECT to buy their product or service. It is wanted or needed or they are out of business. Competition forces fair pricing and improvements.

David K, your statements are overwrought and replete with unrealistic simplistic blind optimism and gross oversimplification and, therefore, naiveté. Naiveté means blind unreasonable, illogical optimism. That’s you.
The case you are trying to build here falls completely apart if your free market assumptions don’t hold. Private enterprises don’t always grow even if people want or need their product. Often a big business will use monopolistic undercut pricing to ruin and eliminate the competition of the company ‘in a free market’ that initially had lower prices and a better product. Microsoft did that over and over again. Pharma companies have paid what is tantamount to a bribery fee to competing drug manufacturers to refrain from producing a generic drug whose patent has expired so that the bribery paying patent holding company can continue to grossly over charge consumers (higher price, David K). That’s not an example of the “market” prevailing to lower prices and produce an improvement. Regulations had to be passed and enforced to prevent that kind of behavior; it wasn’t the market that prevents that behavior. Yet again, another failure of the market that you blithely adore.

The foundation for your argument assumes ‘ever present’ competition forces prevail across the board. You do know that big companies use monopolistic pressure to successfully suppress competition all the time, every day, everywhere, right? You do know why we have Anti Trust laws, right? I ask that because your blind assumption of the workings of the market place as the foundation to your argument does not reflect cognizance of the inherent failings in a free market.

Another huge factor as to why your simplistic naïve over reaching foundational statements above fall apart in reality is a thing called “asymmetries of information”, that is, the markets are almost always much less than perfect because one party in a transaction knows something that the other party doesn’t know. This destroys competition, destroys the ability of consumers’ ability to buy what they really want and need. This immensely erodes the foundation of your argument and is the reason that capitalist markets are indeed much, much less than perfect. And, every time an imperfection in the market occurs, that thwarts the ability of the market to do the things you say it does, e.g., lead to growth of private enterprise, consumers buying (voting) for the things they need and want, competition lowering prices and improving products.

Another example, big oil companies and tobacco companies and furniture and clothing manufacturers have successfully used misinformation campaigns to dupe the public into buying their products by withholding information on the damage that their products are actually doing to their consumers and to the public.

A Nobel Prize was awarded for discovery of the ever-present existence of “asymmetries of information” in the capitalist market place, thus illuminating the major failures and shortcomings of any and all free markets.

I don’t know why you juxtapose your naïve incomplete understanding of capitalism and the market place with socialism. No one here, certainly not me, is promoting a complete implementation of socialism. David K, you are fighting a windmill, notwithstanding your complete misrepresentation of socialism.

There are different types of socialism and different types and manners of its implementations. Your rant makes no such distinctions but incorrectly implies one monolithic form only. What your portrayal of socialism actually does is disclose your ‘political’ view of socialism as seen thru a FOX news filter. You really have to rid yourself of the adolescent back woods notion that ‘government’ is this boogey man that operates independent of the people like a virulent strain of cancer that has no cure.

To illustrate your convoluted understanding of things, on the one hand you portray socialism in a democratic government where the controlling political party perpetuates this imagined socialistic system. If you have political parties then there is always the eventuality that the minority party becomes the controlling party with the ability to modifying the supposed ‘runaway’ socialism). You assume perpetual governmental corruption and over reaching even though your example takes place in a democracy where regimes can change at any time. You blindly rely on the “VOTE” of people buying products but you obviously don’t rely on the vote of the people in a democracy?

The point is that there are very good things in an economy based on market based capitalism. It has many, many great attributes. Socialism has some very great attributes as well. The goal should be to draw from both where appropriate and modify from each where appropriate and combine the two where appropriate in our democracy so that our society can optimally benefit from all those things that work. The fact of the matter is that we already many elements in our current government that are socialistic. Any and all governments are themselves a socialistic institution. The armed forces is socialistic. Our judicial system and legislative system is socialistic, local, state and federal. Our federal interstate system is socialistic. Our federalist republic government is itself a socialistic institution as set out by our Constitution.

BTW, The governments duty per the Constitution is to “protect the people from injustice”. The governments goal per the Constitution is to do what is in the ‘true interest of the community”. Furthermore, you are 180 degrees completely wrong about a free market putting people in power. An unregulated unfettered laissez-faire completely free market subjugates people to the certain tyranny by the few at the top in proportion to the degree of such market freedom. Virtually all economists and political scientists have said that for decades. Your blind faith and inarticulation, David K, has led you down a rabbit hole. Barry A., don’t follow him; it will only confound the folly. Santelli, Kemp, and Kudlow are not economists. Concerning economics, they are only pundits. Kemp’s only degree is in physical education. Laffer, while he is an economist, is not any where near belonging to the pantheon of nationally or internationally recognized authorities; actually, regarded more like a pundit than economist.

[Edited on 4-12-2017 by MitchMan]

[Edited on 4-12-2017 by MitchMan]

David K - 4-12-2017 at 10:06 AM

Mitch... the examples of free enterprise fail you give in the opening reply are ALL DUE TO GOVERNMENT activity, meddling, and not true free enterprise. That government activity is why the higher price or why there is no competition. It is pure BS when the government uses such tactics and it screws the consumers!

America is a constitutional-representative republic, not a democracy (democracy means mob rule, after all). A republic is a government of laws, where the minority (or everyone) has rights protected by laws and the simple majority can't suddenly usher in the latest fad idea with an election.

The rest of you post seems to be a presumption that you actually know me or what TV shows I watch. I don't presume to know you, nor claim you are glued to MSNBC, CNN, or the other Fake News (LOL) programs. Let's not get personal, there's no need.

No form of socialism can be fair to all the people whereas a constitutional republic is. We can keep it fair and honest through elections (the democratic part) to choose our representatives, who make the laws. It's the best there is for a country like ours... a country where people from other places risk their lives to live in. How bad can it be?

Have a nice day!

BajaTed - 4-14-2017 at 12:35 PM

Sorry about my spanglish

back at you
fibuck yibou tiboo :bounce:

chuckie - 4-14-2017 at 12:48 PM

I bet your mommy taught you to talk like that...

chuckie - 4-14-2017 at 02:31 PM

That's Turd talk..take out the" ib's" and it translates to Hi Mom..

BajaTed - 4-14-2017 at 08:20 PM

Busted,
In high school, there was no internet.

Back to the OP

BBC world news today says that Mexico is 3rd most violent place in the world.
BTW Who are 1# and 2#?