BajaNomad - Missions, just the FACTS, a project...

David,
I don't see any info you posted here answering Harald's question about indigenous populations and their roles in catholic/christian imperialism.

Maybe a typo ?

Ged.....no matter how hard one tries, you just can't get that toothpaste back in the tube....It is was it was....a slice of world history

What was the role of indigenous peoples in Canada when the "crown" and France swept in and over run them with their brand of Christian Imperialism?

motoged - 6-22-2018 at 12:17 PM

David,
I don't see any info you posted here answering Harald's question about indigenous populations and their roles in catholic/christian imperialism.

Maybe a typo ?

we are not talking about toothpaste for a start.... :rolleyes:

The role of indigenous peoples in these situations is to die of disease, loss of their cultures, and becoming victims of slavery, ethnic oppression, physical, psychological and/or sexual abuse, and in Canada's case institutional (residential school/family break-ups) applications.

Still no comments re: indigenous numbers, etc re: this patch of missions .

This big trail mission thing seems to glorify the invaders and their impact on indigenous people....just sayin' .

Your attempt to divert the question with a Canadian reference doesn't really do much to weaken any questions about the inglorious history...other than to question where else has it occured.

Thanks for pointing that out. :light:

DaliDali - 6-22-2018 at 12:50 PM

David,
I don't see any info you posted here answering Harald's question about indigenous populations and their roles in catholic/christian imperialism.

Maybe a typo ?

we are not talking about toothpaste for a start.... :rolleyes:

The CA question is relevant in that "invaders" did in fact, also invade CA...did they or did they not? Are you not the prodigy of these "crown" invaders?...after 250 years or so.....can you notate the feeling you have about all that?

It would seem your trying to lay blame where there is none.
Invaders invade.....that is what they did......even in what is now known as CA.
And all 250 odd years or so ago....

Do you STILL hold that grudge about CA invaders?

And STILL no notes, you told me you had to consult about CA immigration.

TMW - 6-22-2018 at 01:01 PM

I would have to do some digging but I seem to remember reading what the Indian population at various missions was (probably round numbers) when first started and what it was at the end.

In Edward W. Vernon's book "Las Misiones Antiguas", The Spanish Missions of Baja California, he has a section in the front on the Indians. He states that derived statistics indicate that the 30,000-40,000 aboriginals who occupied the Jesuits territories on the arrivial of the Europeans, shrank to fewer than 7,000, as shown by the census taken at the Jesuits' expulsion in 1768.

Further reading on the subject is provided by Dr. Michael Mathes who has published studies on the Indian population and also Robert H. Jackson, in the Spanish Borderlands Source Book.

[Edited on 6-22-2018 by TMW]

norte - 6-22-2018 at 01:25 PM

Harald, looking over the letters written by Padre Juan María Salvatierra I could glean some population figures...

In June 1698, the California colony had 22 Spaniards.

On July 9, 1699, Salvatierra wrote that the Loreto presidio consisted of 27 soldiers with more expected to arrive soon.

I found a population report for the number of non-native Californians in the year 1700, when there were only two missions...
March 1, 1700, from a letter by Padre Salvatierra:
66 persons: padres, soldiers, muleteers, Filipinos, Christian Indians from the mainland, two Spanish soldiers of fortune, besides women and children.

In a letter dated August 29, 1701, Salvatierra reports of being somewhat in danger because of only having 16 soldiers for protection as the others had to be dismissed for lack of money to pay them.

Where did you get these letters? and did you translate them?

David K - 6-22-2018 at 04:00 PM

David,
I don't see any info you posted here answering Harald's question about indigenous populations and their roles in catholic/christian imperialism.

Maybe a typo ?

He asked several questions and I answered some, got sidetracked on them. I am easy to contact if you needed me to look up something I missed. I can only retrieve data if the missionaries documented it... by going through several books as no single book has all the answers... One purpose of my book was to condense lots of interesting facts into a single book.

I am not religious or a Catholic, so I am only seeing this as actions that happened, rather than choosing to ignore or promote past actions. In short, Spain wanted California (the peninsula or island) and the mission system was (at that time) the way Spain educated the natives to be productive Spanish citizens and not kill European or Mexican-born people in California.

I am re-reading 'Black Robes in Lower California' and as I find population figures, I will continue to share them with everyone. Other sources are Harry Crosby's 'Antigua California' as well as others including numerous letters from the missionaries that have been preserved and published. In my book is an extensive reference list giving nearly all of the books about the missions.

David K - 6-22-2018 at 04:07 PM

Quote: Originally posted by 4x4abc

so, Dolores north of Loreto is a lost mission?

No... it was a visita (like Londó) that the Jesuits called a mission (probably to show how successful they were in the first few years. It was a few miles north of Loreto but I have yet to know exactly where... but I haven't devoted a lot into that mystery, yet! It is the reason that when a (true) mission was founded, to the south (in 1721) called Dolores, that it was often called Dolores del Sur to distinguish it from the Dolores near Loreto. Another Dolores that was proposed in the north, was named Dolores del Norte for the same reason... It became Santa Gertrudis when it was finally funded and opened.

A true (Jesuit) mission had a benefactor ($$$) and a priest, full time (but often with so few Jesuits available, the priest had to help out at other locations).

David K - 6-22-2018 at 04:14 PM

Quote: Originally posted by norte

Where did you get these letters? and did you translate them?

They are published in several books, including the Dawson Baja California Travelers Series, written by different scholars and translated into English.
See my list of reference sources in the back of my book.
My Spanish is not good enough to enjoy reading Old Spanish or other European languages (German often). The Jesuits were from many countries. However, after their expulsion from the Western Hemisphere (1767-1768), missionaries were usually Spanish citizens... some born in Mexico.

4x4abc - 6-22-2018 at 07:39 PM

OK - numbers:

1768, in the middle of the mission period fifteen settlements had a population over 100 or more. All but one were mission stations. Santa Ana, the exception, was a silver mining center south of La Paz.
100 La Purisima
100 Magdalena
1000 Santa Gertrudis
1500 San Borja
200 Santa Ana - mining
300 San Luis Gonzaga
300 Mulege
300 Santa Maria
50 La Paz
50 Todos Santos
500 Comondu
500 Dolores
500 Guadalupe
500 Loreto
500 San Javier
500 San Jose del Cabo
500 Santiago
800 San Ignacio

1776:

MISION DE NUESTRA SEÑORA DE LORETO: Con 101 Hombres y 237 Mujeres, Total de 338 Almas
MISION DE SANTA GERTRUDIS: Con 453 hombres y 353 Mujeres, Total de 872 Almas
MISION DE SAN F. XAVIER: Con 153 Hombres y 151 Mujeres, Total de 304 Almas
MISION DE NUESTRA SRA, DE GUADALUPE: Con 94 Hombres y 76 Mujeres, Total de 170 Almas
MISION DE SAN JOSE DE COMONDU: ( Hombres, Mujeres ( ? ) Total 269 Almas
MISION DE SAN IGNACIO: Con 144 Hombres y 156 Mujeres, Total de 300 Almas
MISION DE MULEGE: Con 96 Hombres y 74 Mujeres, Total de 170 Almas
MISION SAN FCO DE BORJA: Con 524 Hombres y 434 Mujeres, Total de 958 Almas
MISION SAN JOSE DEL CABO: Con 65 Hombres y 46 Mujeres, Total de 111 Almas
MISION SAN FERNANDO DE VELICATA: Con 309 Hombres y 279 Mujeres, Total de 606 Almas
MISION NUESTRA SRA, DE LA CONCEPCION (Purisima): Con 90 Hombres y 87 Mujeres, Total de 177 Almas
MISION DEL ROSARIO DE VIÑADACO: Con 115 Hombres y 32 Mujeres, Total de 207

for the ones of you who still read: http://www.baja101.com/Nomad/Settlements.pdf

Mission History References

David K - 6-23-2018 at 09:19 AM

In the back of my book, 'Baja California Land of Missions' is a list of the books in my personal collection that contains some or a lot of details about the missions and the missionaries... Here are the 4 pages with those books listed...

[Edited on 12-29-2021 by David K]

BajaTed - 6-23-2018 at 09:39 AM

The journey around unexplored Baja as the settlement timeline unfolds is fascinating to imagine. People from the Philippines in Baja before 1700, amazing

motoged - 6-23-2018 at 09:50 AM

Quote: Originally posted by TMW

I would have to do some digging but I seem to remember reading what the Indian population at various missions was (probably round numbers) when first started and what it was at the end.

In Edward W. Vernon's book "Las Misiones Antiguas", The Spanish Missions of Baja California, he has a section in the front on the Indians. He states that derived statistics indicate that the 30,000-40,000 aboriginals who occupied the Jesuits territories on the arrivial of the Europeans, shrank to fewer than 7,000, as shown by the census taken at the Jesuits' expulsion in 1768.

[Edited on 6-22-2018 by TMW]

Thanks Tom....I was hoping that historical accounts of the missions in Baja would make some acknowledgement of the "downside" of the romantic vision of priests suffering the Camino Real lugging grapevine cuttings and their mission to civilize the native heathens.
I am not suggesting that David take a political/emotional stance with his passion for the missions stories.....just the facts.

San Borja is my favourite mission site....with Mulege coming in second...always impressed with the imported stone details.....and the great human effort to schlep all that rock...

norte - 6-23-2018 at 10:22 AM

Quote: Originally posted by norte

Where did you get these letters? and did you translate them?

Since there has been the propensity to romanticize the Spanish conquest and occupation of the Baja peninsula... wouldn't you have to be careful of calling someone else's translation fact? After all, more and more information is coming available bout how harsh and abusive the missionaries actually were.

David K - 6-23-2018 at 12:07 PM

There were hundreds of missionaries over a span of over 150 years. In most cases, the Jesuits were protective of the Indians and it was the government soldiers that they had to deal with and created a program where they would have authority over the soldiers.

After 72 years, the Jesuits were removed and the peninsula came under Spanish civil authority with the arrival of the Franciscans... The government made the rules, the Indians began to be treated like tools for the king, and that is when you begin to read of forced lodging at the missions, punishment for desertion, and harsh penalties. In other words, when the government was in charge instead of the Jesuit Order, that is when the deal soured for the natives.

4x4abc - 6-23-2018 at 12:24 PM

do I read an admiration for the liberal Jesuits between the lines?

chippy - 6-23-2018 at 01:33 PM

Didn´t the reduction of native population have alot to do with the filthy euro diseases they (the missionaries) brought and the natives having 0 resistance to these?

[Edited on 6-23-2018 by chippy]

David K - 6-23-2018 at 03:34 PM

The pearl fishermen, and pirates were the first to introduce diseases, followed by the soldiers. The Jesuit missionaries tried to protect the natives.

gnukid - 6-23-2018 at 04:11 PM

For clarity, and respect for the history, to tell the story of indigenous people, let's make this a bit more complex...

4x4abc - 6-23-2018 at 05:11 PM

the native population wasn't really seen as human. They were used as workforce. Who do you think build Camino Real or the mission buildings? The "elite workforce" (carpenters, soldiers) were brought from Spain or mainland. They all came with a wife. The padres did not want any interbreeding with the native population. The first families in Baja (the Verdugos, de la Tobas, Villavicencios, Arces etc) are very proud of the fact that they are "pure".
To prevent interbreeding the padres did not want any uncontrolled settlements aside from the missions (mining, pearl fishing etc).
There was one notable exception. Real de Santa Ana, a silver mine near San Antonio/El Triunfo. Money always wins.
"Real" was like the approval stamp of the king in Spain and a visible sign that you were under the protection of the crown.
Santa Ana became Real Santa Ana because the owners bought mercury at Hacienda Real y Caja de Guadalajara. What a brilliant move! Almost all miners needed mercury. With the hacienda (IRS) selling it, the Spanish government made sure that you also paid your taxes.

David K - 6-23-2018 at 05:57 PM

Quote: Originally posted by 4x4abc

the native population wasn't really seen as human.

That is an opinion, of course... and it may be true of some of the padres, such a German Padre Jakob Baegert (San Luis Gonzaga) who had quite the impression of the Guaycura Natives if you read his book! Others, however, were very respectful of the Natives as being people.

The missions and Camino Real were for the Californians and part of converting them to be loyal citizens of the Kingdom of Spain. Their land was called the Kingdom of California as well as their tribes were called kingdoms. This would indicate a degree of respect... even though the intention was to convert them into Spanish subjects.

The Jesuits didn't want other mainlanders beyond the craftsmen and soldiers to enter California to protect their neophytes. The Real de Santa Ana was not a popular exception, with the Jesuits.

As I said above, when the Jesuits were removed, then the whole deal changed and the civil government took over and the welfare of the native Californians was shelved. I think it would be fair to say after 1768, their status was lowered.

[Edited on 6-24-2018 by David K]

gnukid - 6-23-2018 at 06:03 PM

The story of foreign Missionary influence on indigenous Baja peninsula people from 1400-1500 to present is just one dimension of the indigenous people. There are many more complex social stories, and many are still unfolding with evidence uncovered by hurricanes and the eye of the observer venturing to areas unexplored to identify their behaviors and patterns.

Obviously the story told by historians of spanish visitors and Missions building initiatives is very narrow in scope, probably with many misunderstandings, and focuses on a small number of people (less than a few hundred, perhaps less than 100) and their stories. The total number of Indians in BCS and Northern Baja is still being determined but certainly was more than one thousand in 1500 and likely many thousands in this period with great diversity including Islenos, Perico, Kumeyaay, Cochimí, Cocopá, Kiliwa, Guaycura, Pai Pai and perhaps Seri. They had a different life from ours, and were very complex and intelligent so its hard to relate unless you open your mind, or perhaps identify with the life and imagine your life here at that time and what would you do and why. Of course there are many related Mestizo (mixed) people today who retain their heritage and cultural influence, perhaps it's possible to live in the remote area or islands as some have done and assimilate some aspect of their lives. To know their history one would need to sit still and open your eyes and look around and imagine what their life is like, the tools and locations and behavior will become obvious and before you know it the stories will shout out from the land and ocean and tools/artifacts will appear. so much evidence exists but is unreported. Perhaps you will leave the evidence of tools and artifacts just as they did because it doesn't help to carry tools from where you need them to another location where you don't.

Today, in 2018 we have a very short written history of mission influence by a small number of authors perhaps use your eyes, touch and imagination and the whole complex history of indigenous people in Baja will reveal itself which continues today.

I'n excited for DK's 50-100,000 year history of Baja coming soon to a book store near you!

paul 157.jpg - 71kB

[Edited on 6-24-2018 by gnukid]

David K - 6-23-2018 at 06:15 PM

I hope my book and writings inspire others to go to the mission sites and absorb the energy and sensations. To some, they are just locations with stumps of adobe to great churches built in a harsh land... to me, they are windows into the past of extreme human activity in a place so harsh and so remote. To imagine there were hundreds to thousands of native people, can be difficult. We are so fortunate the events were documented by those who lived at the missions. It is unfortunate that the Indians did not have a written language so that we could learn their thoughts on these events. Only the Indians of the north have been quoted, such as Chief Jatiñil in regards to the missions of Descanso and Guadalupe (1834-1839).

Edit, because of gnu's edit: My book deals with the period of recorded history in California (Baja) from 1533-1855... You can look to other books for pre-history.

[Edited on 6-24-2018 by David K]

mtgoat666 - 6-23-2018 at 06:44 PM

Dk,
You should read the bio of Ishi.
And while you are at it, might as well drink a beer or 3 and watch Apocolypto, eh?

I think the churches throughout Latin America white washed their early histories. The truth is that most all Europeans felt themselves superior to the heathens, and history shows that prejudice results in mistreatment.... universal story, even if the padres wrote differently in their memoirs.

mtgoat666 - 6-24-2018 at 05:49 AM

I liked Apocalypto... Interesting you mentioned it, as it showed correctly how the Indians killed each other in such savage violence!

Um, it was a Hollywood movie, the violence was over the top because that’s what sells.

Again, "most Europeans" were not the 16 Jesuits who were in California so I ask that you not generalize at least until you read more of what the Jesuits were thinking and doing in California.

Ya, sure you betcha!

David K - 6-24-2018 at 06:11 AM

The natives frequently were at war, took slaves, killed women and children. That a Hollywood movie illustrated reality instead of the 'New-think' habit of painting a picture of a gentle people in harmony with Nature until white man brought evil to the Americas.

Anyway, I started this thread not to debate a Mel Gibson film, but to put some statistical facts out for review. Do you have any facts to share on the 27 missions on the peninsula... those backed up with some documentation?

motoged - 6-24-2018 at 11:40 AM

.... Do you have any facts to share on the 27 missions on the peninsula... those backed up with some documentation?

David,

Two minutes on Google for a starter....you corrected a previous poster with the disclaimer his post was "an opinion"...here are some more...

https://www.ncronline.org/blogs/faith-and-justice/junipero-serra-saint-or-not (too lengthy to cut and paste)

https://www.livescience.com/52230-why-serra-canonization-is-controversial.html

https://newsela.com/read/lib-california-missions-native-americans/id/36825/

motoged - 6-24-2018 at 12:10 PM

The natives were human, so if someone sees them as not human, isn't that an opinion???

Google is not the writings and books from the 1600s to now, is it?

Anyway, glad you are interested in learning about Baja's past!

So dismissive, David.... :no:

I thought for a minute you might be open to the subject from an unbiased research perspective....damn, another wasted minute...

SFandH - 6-24-2018 at 12:59 PM

The Spanish Inquisition was in full force during much of the period the missions were built. All non-Catholics were considered to be guilty of heresy. First and foremost, the missionaries were evangelists. Their job was to convert the native population to Catholicism, and to say they were intolerant of those who resisted would be an understatement. Certainly, the Jews and Muslims in Spain found themselves in dire straits.

I don't know how forceful the Catholic missionaries in Baja were, but their primary goal was to convert the indigenous people to Christianity and eliminate their traditional religious practices. Most unfortunate in my book.

[Edited on 6-24-2018 by SFandH]

population of indians at each mission

Juanita - 6-24-2018 at 03:22 PM

There are several records of the number of Indians within the jurisdiction of each mission, but one difficulty in understanding them is that, whenever a new mission was activated, groups of Indians nearest the new location would be transferred from the previously existing mission. For example, when Padre Luyando finally was able to come to live permanently and found the mission in San Ignacio twelve of the rancherias to the north of Mission Guadalupe were ceded to the new mission. Padre Luyando came with nine mounted soldiers, by the way.

1730: Padre Luyando speaks of a population of 1,249 in the mission jurisdiction, mostly in the surrounding rancherias. Half of this population dies in 1731 during an epidemic of bloody dysentery. Also in 1731 a conflict with a non-christian rancheria is resolved and the new group is added to the mission jurisdiction. Then in 1732 Padre Taraval brings in a small group of Indians from Cedros Island, where 3/4ths of the population had recently died of smallpox, but the newcomers prove to be very sensitive to disease and most die in an epidemic.

You can see how difficult it is to formulate a population statistic for the missions. In 1743 1,196 Indians are living in the Mission San Ignacio community. (Padre Sistiaga, quoted in "Jesuit Relations" by Burris, page 114.) In 1745 750 Indians estimated to be in the population. In 1752 Padre Jorge Retz goes north to found Mission Santa Gertrudis and several rancherias north of San Ignacio are transferred to the jurisdiction of the new mission.

In 1752 1,147 Indians live in the mission San Ignacio jurisdiction; in 1762 838 Indians; in 1768 750 Indians; in 1771 558 Indians. In 1772 433 Indians of San Ignacio die of tifus and malaria. (About one third of the populations of Missions San Borja, Santa Gertrudis and Santa Rosalia de Mulege also die this year.)

In 1774 305 Indians live in the Mission San Ignacio area. Many have deserted the missions during the confusions of the expulsion of the Jesuits, brief tenure of the Franciscans, the taking of an unusual amount of the product of the mission to supply Padre Serra's expedition, and arrival of the Dominicans. In 1782 241 Indians are estimated for the mission population. In 1787 273 souls, no soldiers, one missionary. In 1790 216 Indians; in 1794 169 Indians; in 1798 133 Indians; in 1800 130 Indians; in 1808 75 Indians.

David K - 6-24-2018 at 05:12 PM

Fantastic information Juanita, thank you for your contributions.

Several of the rancherias north of San Ignacio were baptized by Padre Consag and placed (on paper) into the records of a mission called "Dolores del Norte" many years before a new mission could be established to the north.

When the new mission was finally founded, (by Georg Retz in 1752), the name was changed to Santa Gertrudis, to honor the wife of the benefactor. It has quite the story and is one I detailed in my book.

Writers in the 1900s thought Dolores del Norte was a "lost mission" since it was in the list of Jesuit missions in 1745 and on the Jesuit map of 1757. An old map even contains both names, Santa Gertrudis and Dolores del Norte. Even INAH made the mistake and called the adobe visita ruins in San Pablo Canyon, Dolores del Norte, as some writers had been doing.

Folks on the Erle Stanley Gardner expeditions of the 1960s came to believe the old stone walls at San Francisco de la Sierra were the lost mission when the villagers here saying the walls were "Dolores".

Great stuff all! Keep on learning, the truth is out there!

[Edited on 6-25-2018 by David K]

norte - 6-24-2018 at 06:23 PM

So dismissive, David.... :no:

I thought for a minute you might be open to the subject from an unbiased research perspective....damn, another wasted minute...

Some people use google to look for "facts" to back up what their preconceived notions already are. Its a sickness that is growing in the USA.

mtgoat666 - 6-24-2018 at 07:12 PM

Yes... or they can buy books, the old fashion way, but works without cell or wifi signal!

Or read books in library :lol:

Paco Facullo - 6-24-2018 at 08:33 PM

This whole missions and religion talk reminded me of a time I was returning from Costa Rica some odd 20 years ago. On the flight home there was a large group of folks eating mostly vegan meals. Well one of the group , a man of around 25 year old, was sitting next to me. So being the inquisitive kinda guy I am proceeded to inquire " just what the heck Ya'll up to ???
He proceeded to tell me that they were a Church group on a mission to build a church for a town that didn't have one. I thought " Wow that is really darn nice of them"!

Then upon future discussion I find out that they are building the church to covert the native people into "their" brand of religion.

So then I couldn't help myself but to tell the guy that he just lost ALL the goodness that I thought they were doing and that they were merely doing a very selfish act...

Now if they were building a school THAT would be a Noble cause...

[Edited on 6-25-2018 by Paco Facullo]

TMW - 6-24-2018 at 08:58 PM

That is what leaders do. Convince others to do what they want done. Sometimes for the good, sometimes for the bad and sometimes somewhere in between. FDR convinced a nation that all we had to fear was fear itself.

TMW - 6-24-2018 at 09:03 PM

Many homeless centers and shelters have a religious element involved in their operations. We'll feed you and give you a bed to sleep now join us for prayer and sing a few gospel songs. I'm not saying it's right or wrong since they do good work for the poor and homeless.

motoged - 6-25-2018 at 10:52 AM

Quote: Originally posted by Juanita

There are several records of the number of Indians within the jurisdiction of each mission, but one difficulty in understanding them is that, whenever a new mission was activated, groups of Indians nearest the new location would be transferred from the previously existing mission.

Thanks for the info....it would be informative if DK included such info in updated editions in Baja mission book(s). :light:

David K - 6-25-2018 at 11:14 AM

I would love to have every little fact in my book, but then it would be so big that it would no longer be easy to have at hand, in your glove box, for example.

I put in the basics of each mission plus addition interesting history about that mission or the people involved. I have listed every missionary who has been recorded as serving at the missions in the book.

At around 230 pages and so many photos and maps, it really does serve the purpose I had intended and apparently, it pleases those who have read it. I have had 5 printings to fulfill the demand by my distributor (Sunbelt Publications) as well as direct sales by my publishing company (M & E BOOKS) at www.oldmissions.com

Besides the reviews on the back of my book from Osprey, Graham, and GregN, there are reviews on Amazon, as well:

From E.D. in 2017: 5.0 out of 5 stars

"A book that captures not just the history of a place, but its heart as well!
Nothing defines California as significantly or emotionally as the missions and history of the old El Camino Real mission trail. The mission trail, and California history, starts almost a thousand miles south of the California border in Loreto Mexico, in Baja California; indeed, the California peninsula was the only California for at least 230 years before "Baja" was added to the name in 1769. The author, David Kier, does a remarkable job of chronicling the Jesuit, Franciscan, and Dominican missionaries and the missions they founded in Baja California. "Baja California Land of Missions" is superbly written and researched, with over a hundred photos, maps, and drawings. Kier's summary of the nearly 200 missionaries who served in Baja California between 1683 and 1855, is a unique, and incredibly useful, historical resource. Designed to fit nicely in a pocket, or console compartment - this is a "must-have" guide for any one traveling the Baja Peninsula, especially for the adventurer and explorer who takes delight in veering off the pavement, and into the wild ... and into the lives and dreams of men of the past.

In one slim volume David Kier has captured, not just the history of a place, but its heart as well."

From C.J. in 2018: 5.0 out of 5 stars

"Must have book for Baja travelers interested in History!
found the book to be a well researched and documented history of the Missions of Baja California. Lots of interesting information, corrections of older research, etc. well photographed, often with a photo history series dating back to the 1530s. I also found amazing that I got immediate responses from the author when I contacted him asking for more information.
If you are a Baja traveler, and interested in History, this should be one of your go-to books!

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

So, I must have done something right? I sure worked hard enough on it!

Now, this thread is for a different book, a THIRD EDITION of the 2012 book I co-authored with Max Kurillo, 'The Old Missions of Baja & Alta California, 1697-1834' about the founding of ALL the California missions, in the correct order they were founded, with photos and just a bit of history.

motoged - 6-25-2018 at 12:03 PM

David,
I understand that adding another page or two to acknowledge such FACTS would certainly make the book too big to put in a glove compartment in a vehicle. I am sure the praise of Nomads is well-deserved for your efforts with your sharing your love of Baja mission history.

And I understand the incomplete (by omission) full story of the mission project's impact on indigenous populations tarnishes its charm.

Oh well.....your post started with an invitation:
"As with my other projects, I value the (serious) input of my Nomad friends."

My input was "serious". Why ask for factual input and then justify ignoring it?

As yer buddy says...."Sad"

[Edited on 6-25-2018 by motoged]

David K - 6-25-2018 at 01:11 PM

Ged, there are 27 missions and almost half of them were in more than one location. It would be 1-2 pages per mission, just fyi.

One of the purposes of the book is to provide basic facts like this.

If you u2u or email me your address, I will (as a friend) gift you a copy so you can appreciate what I have published. My book includes my lifetime of interest and my personal need to get the facts correct. As I have stated before, most if not all the books on the Baja missions have errors, often errors started with one author and simply copied in the next book written. I cannot guarantee my book is free of any errors but my goal was to correct those common errors made either on accident or intentionally. Whenever possible, I looked to the writings of people who were alive at the missions for the dates, names, and other details. Next, I went to the oldest research work that would have gleaned the mission papers in the 1800s. Next, I found a source for Dominican records that have never before been published in English to provide details on the Dominican missions never known to have existed in print, before.

No, my book does not have everything about the missions or lost mission legends, but I think it has more than any other single book you can buy and it will be more accurate, too.

It costs extra to mail a package to Canada, but in the hopes of peace and understanding, I will be happy to.

Here is the cover, front and back that pretty clearly says what is in the book and other authors' comments about it:

motoged - 6-25-2018 at 02:28 PM

David,
Thanks for the free book offer...I will pass on that.

norte - 6-25-2018 at 03:40 PM

I just hate it when looking at books you find a "club" who reviews each others books with 5 stars. Turns me off.

DaliDali - 6-25-2018 at 03:59 PM

David,
Thanks for the free book offer...I will pass on that.

STILL throwing darts Ged?

David K - 6-25-2018 at 04:24 PM

Quote: Originally posted by norte

I just hate it when looking at books you find a "club" who reviews each others books with 5 stars. Turns me off.

Those reviews were from Amazon... you have to buy the book from Amazon, not a club.

David K - 6-25-2018 at 04:36 PM

TW mentioned Dr. Jackson's book earlier... He is a Baja Nomad (academicanachist) and a friend of mine. He has published several books on Latin American history.

Jackson's book was one of my sources for data and his book is in my list of references for those seeking additional information, not found in my book.
=========================================================

Some of the subjects of the comments by Nomads was addressed in the front pages of my book... Please read the Preface, in particular, the third paragraph:

[Edited on 6-25-2018 by David K]

Enrique2012 - 6-25-2018 at 05:00 PM

David, I was shocked to see you offering him a free book (speaks to your character). I would have charged him triple plus $50 for shipping.

fishbuck - 6-25-2018 at 05:30 PM

So Dave, I wonder what your mission is?

I think of the missions as still somewhat alive. If you are a Californian or a Baja Californian it's still part of your life whether you realize it or not.
It's very important to understand. To study. Many lessons left to us to understand. Insight to be had.
Many of the palms planted by the Padres still bear fruit.
Think about that a little...

motoged - 6-25-2018 at 08:37 PM

David,
Thanks for the free book offer...I will pass on that.

STILL throwing darts Ged?

DD,
Your dart doesn't have a point...my comments on this thread are in the spirit with history being presented as factual as possible based on available information....but as a vocal right winger, that might seem like an odd concept to you.

[Edited on 6-26-2018 by motoged]

DaliDali - 6-26-2018 at 04:56 AM

David,
Thanks for the free book offer...I will pass on that.

STILL throwing darts Ged?

So dismissive, David.... :no:

I thought for a minute you might be open to the subject from an unbiased research perspective....damn, another wasted minute...

DK explained to you more than once how it all works, as he knew it, you can't except it.....all because of his political views.
You know it, I know it......it is what you do. Truly Sad

Vocal right wing vs vocal left wing.....ok got that Ged.

paranewbi - 6-26-2018 at 05:17 AM

So dismissive, David.... :no:

I thought for a minute you might be open to the subject from an unbiased research perspective....damn, another wasted minute...

It should be noted that there is an art to designing a book that is publishable. A little research will inform most that there are certain body content considerations (63,000 word) that attract publishers. Then there is the general readership potential where subject matter is strong. As well there is something to be said about the authors' own spirit to come through and the license they take advantage of to portray that.

Failure to understand the aspects of potential publication even if self publishing will sink any authors work at the query level. Maybe trying to write a manuscript would give a better level of understanding to David's work as it is. Or ignorance is OK to.

David K - 6-26-2018 at 06:46 AM

Quote: Originally posted by Enrique2012

David, I was shocked to see you offering him a free book (speaks to your character). I would have charged him triple plus $50 for shipping.

I try my best to make peace and clearly there is a misunderstanding of my motives or perhaps just the events in history. Ged and I exchanged u2u messages and he just doesn't want any books on the missions, what he has seen in Baja is enough for him and there is no need to know the dates, people, or events that caused them to be built. I respect that.

Because what happened in the past was bad (especially by today's standards), does that mean we stop teaching history? Is it not better to know what happened than to pretend it didn't happen or rewrite events to falsely portray what happened? For some, I hope there is some interest in why, who, how, when. For others, there is no such need.

The mission sites and buildings in Baja are artifacts and monuments to human endeavors in this peninsula that even today is so harsh and difficult for many. That is what people see and want to know more about. That is what my book (and others before) write about.

If not the Spanish, some other nationality would have arrived on California's shores and brought their standards and diseases... it has happened elsewhere. Sad but true. I just wanted the facts as best as they are known to be accurate.

Now, while this has been quite a sidebar on my current book, Baja California Land of Missions, the purpose of the post is to condense details for the future book, a third edition of The Old Missions of Baja & Alta California.

Thank you!

David K - 6-26-2018 at 06:49 AM

Quote: Originally posted by fishbuck

So Dave, I wonder what your mission is?

I think of the missions as still somewhat alive. If you are a Californian or a Baja Californian it's still part of your life whether you realize it or not.
It's very important to understand. To study. Many lessons left to us to understand. Insight to be had.
Many of the palms planted by the Padres still bear fruit.
Think about that a little...

See the Preface page I posted above your question.
Yes, you are correct. I feel a connection as a Californian and since Baja was California first, that is where I seem to be rooted. I wish I could live there rather than just visit.
I admire your future, Mike!

Now, back to the topic...

David K - 6-26-2018 at 08:13 AM

For the adobe ruins, in some cases I have the most recent year there was documented work. For example, at San Borja, the Franciscans added a new church building so the adobe there dates back to 1773 during the Franciscan's time in Baja (1768-1773). However, the Jesuits began the adobe complex in 1759, when San Borja was a visita of Mission Santa Gertrudis. San Borja didn't become a mission until 1762.

I am thinking instead of 1773 when the adobe work was completed, maybe add also when it was begun (1759)?

Santa Catalina was another mission that had adobe building before it became a mission. See, interesting, right?

motoged - 6-26-2018 at 10:32 AM

.....
I try my best to make peace and clearly there is a misunderstanding of my motives or perhaps just the events in history. Ged and I exchanged u2u messages and he just doesn't want any books on the missions, what he has seen in Baja is enough for him and there is no need to know the dates, people, or events that caused them to be built. I respect that.....

My response to David's kind offer of a free book via U2U:

"David,
I passed on your offer as I simply don't have a strong interest in missions anywhere....but am knowledgeable and curious about history in a general sense.

I have visited adobe ruins in Baja, most of the standing missions (not Gertrudis....yet), and numerous churches on mainland, stone ruins on mainland Mexico, and Mayan ruins in Guatemala and Honduras...some great architecture and stained glass, but I just can't get past the oppression institutionalized by religions. As such, I use my voice to speak about what I consider to be injustice....be it religious, political, or social.

I believe it would be practical and possible for you to acknowledge the impact of missionary zeal on indigenous people in Baja by contacting the poster who responded to the question I asked you re: historical fact, follow up on the sources, and respect the Indians as much as the missionaries by including such info in upcoming editions....and talks you give.

I am sure an additional few pages of such historical fact wouldn't be a huge challenge to research and send to the presses.

Thanks for your offer again."

I respect David's work and passion for Baja history, mapping, and promotion....and was hoping his request that started this tread might result in some acknowledgement of the impact missions had on indigenous peoples of the Californias (Baja in point)....that's all.
Yes, he and I view the world through different political lenses and we have, over the years, had a few U2U's that were civil....

willardguy - 6-26-2018 at 10:41 AM

if we just had a bigger glove box.........

JoeJustJoe - 6-26-2018 at 12:20 PM

Quote: Originally posted by Paco Facullo

This whole missions and religion talk reminded me of a time I was returning from Costa Rica some odd 20 years ago. On the flight home there was a large group of folks eating mostly vegan meals. Well one of the group , a man of around 25 year old, was sitting next to me. So being the inquisitive kinda guy I am proceeded to inquire " just what the heck Ya'll up to ???
He proceeded to tell me that they were a Church group on a mission to build a church for a town that didn't have one. I thought " Wow that is really darn nice of them"!

Then upon future discussion I find out that they are building the church to covert the native people into "their" brand of religion.

So then I couldn't help myself but to tell the guy that he just lost ALL the goodness that I thought they were doing and that they were merely doing a very selfish act...

Now if they were building a school THAT would be a Noble cause...

Paco, that's just so rude to tell a missionary that they were doing a very selfish act, especially if you know the word of Jesus, and what he did when Jesus saw two brothers fishing in the lake, and then told them to follow him and bring the net to fish for people.

The same thing in Matthew 28:19.

"Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit."

I also support, " Habitat for Humanity," who lives by the words in the Old Testament," If a brother living near you becomes poor, you must provide for him."

I understand where you are coming from Paco, and non of these religious groups are perfect, and it does sometimes pains me to see their recruitment of the so-called heathens to their religion, but their hearts are usually in the right place, and their good usually out weighs the bad.

That said, I believe with the Jesuits, in Baja and Mexico, the bad outweighed the good, by a long shot, and while some historians try to separate the Jesuits, Franciscan monks, and the Catholic church from the Spanish government,and point fingers at the Spanish as being the evil ones and say the Jesuits were only trying to help the local indigenous Indian population, that was mostly false, and both groups of mostly Spanish white men, from the government or church, tried to enslave the local population, and ended up decimating the local population with diseases and the ones who lived had their spirit killed.

A chapter, as a sample...

David K - 6-27-2018 at 06:14 AM

Okay, I think as long as there is going to be a discussion on the missions and if I have provided enough data, included on the native Indians, to those of you who do not have my book... Here is Mission #12 (1730):

[In the 2018/ 5th printing of my book, the bottom photo was replaced with one I took in 2017 at the Santa Rosa site.]

norte - 6-27-2018 at 08:01 AM

Okay, I think as long as there is going to be a discussion on the missions and if I have provided enough data, included on the native Indians, to those of you who do not have my book... Here is Mission #12 (1730):

[In the 2018/ 5th printing of my book, the bottom photo was replaced with one I took in 2017 at the Santa Rosa site.]

You are still relying on documentation that was written to justify an occupation.

David K - 6-27-2018 at 09:18 AM

There is no intention on my part to change the facts documented in order to be "pc". This is the history, and yes, it was an occupation.
I guess, for you, the question is, can you handle the truth? If it isn't pretty it still doesn't mean it didn't happen.
I reported on what the documents said what happened, not if it was good or bad. That is up to the reader to decide.

willardguy - 6-27-2018 at 09:36 AM

There is no intention on my part to change the facts documented in order to be "pc". This is the history, and yes, it was an occupation.
I guess, for you, the question is, can you handle the truth? If it isn't pretty it still doesn't mean it didn't happen.
I reported on what the documents said what happened, not if it was good or bad. That is up to the reader to decide.

as usual....your intention is perfectly clear david :rolleyes:

David K - 6-27-2018 at 09:48 AM

As is yours! :light:

motoged - 6-27-2018 at 09:50 AM

David,
I don't see anywhere where posters are asking you to make a value judgement regarding the missionarys' impact on indigenous peoples in Baja....rather, some have encouraged you to use unbiased and /or range of research sources to address this part of the history....

I don't see the suggestion being about "political correctness"....but your bent on this suggests you may have a bias "politically"....and have difficulty handling "the truth".

It appears that your rhetoric may be showing such bias.

You could welcome the suggestions offered in response to your leading post rather than rationalize/justify your decision to not quantify (not qualify) the impact of missions.

Should you recognize the value of objective research from a range of sources, you could display such a lack of bias by including such evidence.

Just sayin' .....

DaliDali - 6-27-2018 at 10:05 AM

For the love of GAWD.....

All this happened 300 years ago....
Invaders invaded.......that is what they did.

England, Spain, Portugal and France.

So now lets reopen the history books, get out a pen and rearrange all of their notes of these "invaders" and to dig down on what their true motives were.

And lay all the blame on DK for some vague, bias based reasons for overlooking it all.

Insanity.....

motoged - 6-27-2018 at 10:09 AM

It is insanity to NOT learn from our history. If not accurately representing history in reporting it....what is that about?

Any comments are not a personal attack on DK, but perhaps on an approach to selling history.

No one wants history to be changed....just accurately reported.

[Edited on 6-27-2018 by motoged]

[Edited on 6-27-2018 by motoged]

David K - 6-27-2018 at 10:14 AM

Ged, the harp by some is on a book already done... it is not going to be re-written after a successful run with 5 printings. This thread was originally a way for me to get an idea of how a 3rd edition of The Old Missions of Baja & Alta California book could standardize the data on the missions. It is Max Kurillo's project for Sunbelt distribution.

I will be happy to tell him you guys on Nomad think the missionaries were horrible people who are responsible for mass genocide and want the narrative of the book changed. Max is 88 years old, so don't count on it... I am having a hard enough time just getting the updates to the Baja missions (my part) revised as there is more details I have learned of since 2012 when I helped him on that book, from when I wrote my book in 2015 on just the Baja missions.

My book (Baja California Land of Missions) is condensed data and stories from all the books and letters back to the 1600s plus my mission (and lost mission) discoveries and modern travel details. There is no political or religious bias from me. The bias from the Jesuits, Franciscans, Dominicans, and the Spanish government is obvious in their writings but that does not change names, dates, or locations which my book provides (less the errors of past books).

Max Kurillo is also not religious or has any more special motives than to share his excitement for the events and locations of the past that we can view today. Have you seen him with Huell Howser on TV?

Get This Book!

David K - 6-27-2018 at 10:24 AM

Those of you who want to read of the sad loss of Indian life... a true genocide... Get Baja Nomad member academicanchist's book, please!
I used Jackson's book as a source for population numbers (which are in my book for some of the missions) as well as older sources which I have that Jackson also used for his book...

DaliDali - 6-27-2018 at 10:39 AM

It is insanity to NOT learn from our history. If not accurately representing history in reporting it....what is that about?

Any comments are not a personal attack on DK, but perhaps on an approach to selling history.

No one wants history to be changed....just accurately reported.

[Edited on 6-27-2018 by motoged]

[Edited on 6-27-2018 by motoged]

We have learned from history Ged.....the invaders of 300 years ago don't invade anymore.

This is one person's account, based on his research, of how it all went down and drawn from those on the ground at the time.

If your all wound up on getting it "accurate".....research and write your own published version. What's that all about?

It is impossible to dig into someone's head who trod the Baja 300 years ago and "accurately" make a call about their real intentions.
It's only from an opinion of some that there were indeed......dastardly in those intentions or not.

Yes you were very "submissive" and contrite.....if not down right snarky.
All because your slant on DK's political held views does not mirror your own. You know it....I know it.

Not a personal attack?.......pifff

motoged - 6-27-2018 at 10:46 AM

Whatever :rolleyes:

JoeJustJoe - 6-27-2018 at 02:09 PM

I would love to read David K's book, and it looks like he put in a lot of work into this subject, and he should be proud of his work.

I don't mind a little sugar coating of history, in regards to Baja history, the missions, Jesuits,Franciscan monks, or even Columbus, but as the years go on the alternative views, from the Latin Americas perceptives should be put out there starting in High School, and the older history books should be retired if they are not updated.

For example, Christopher Columbus, is not celebrated in Latin America, like he is in the USA, and even in the US, we are moving away of treating him like an explorer hero, and many see Columbus, as an evil villain.

Here is a good article from the "Guardian" that's an respectable news outlet, and the article doesn't pull any punches, and shows Jumipero Serra, as a conflicted man, who seems to care for the native Indians, but he also brutalized the Indians, through his own arrogance and ignorance, for example locking up the natives for supposedly their own protection, but it turn out Serra's action caused the Indians to be infected with diseases.
______________________________________

Junípero Serra's brutal story in spotlight as pope prepares for canonisation

Many have condemned decision to elevate 18th-century missionary to sainthood after violence suffered by Native Americans he was said to be protecting

Generations of American schoolchildren have been taught to think of Father Junípero Serra as California’s benevolent founding father, a humble Franciscan monk who left a life of comfort and plenty on the island of Mallorca to travel to the farthest reaches of the New World and protect the natives from the worst abuses of the Spanish imperial army.

Under Serra’s leadership, tens of thousands of Native Americans across Alta California, as the region was then known, were absorbed into Catholic missions – places said by one particularly rapturous myth-maker in the 19th century to be filled with “song, laughter, good food, beautiful languor, and mystical adoration of the Christ”.

What this rosy-eyed view omits is that these natives were brutalized – beaten, pressed into forced labour and infected with diseases to which they had no resistance – and the attempt to integrate them into the empire was a miserable failure. The journalist and historian Carey McWilliams wrote almost 70 years ago the missions could be better conceived as “a series of picturesque charnel houses”.

read the rest here:

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/sep/23/pope-francis-j...

ELINVESTIG8R - 6-27-2018 at 03:30 PM