BajaNomad

Canadians in Loreto

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Sharksbaja - 3-7-2005 at 11:55 PM

I heard last year that the Canadians lost the bid in San Jose de Cabo for a mega-resort with deep water access. Instead I was told they purchased a huge coastal tract in or near Loreto. Does anyone have more info on that??

wilderone - 3-8-2005 at 10:54 AM

The Villages of Loreto Bay.

Loreto Bay

Cincodemayo - 3-8-2005 at 11:25 AM

Wilderone...
My wife and myself came back from Kauai looking for a rental income/retirement home and were floored by the prices in Kauai or Hawaii for that matter...Came home and found one of the Loreto Bay brochures in the mail and a few days after that was the Seattle seminar for the Villages which we attended. Many things sounded great but also had many questions after reading all your posts. First of all were the sewage treatment plant and most important the desal plant for the H20. After talking with our associate yesterday he said the sewage plant was already built with the desal plant not so far behind. We are scheduled to come down to Loreto on the March 17th trip and will certainly have MANY other questions for the BIG guys at the top. There is a site with many pics of all the building going full tilt now and I'll post the link..
http://www.flickr.com/photos/loretobay

I'd be very careful if I were you

jrbaja - 3-8-2005 at 12:41 PM

and judging from those pictures, there hasn't been much progress in 2 years .
Otherwise, they would show more than the one house .

Cincodemayo - 3-8-2005 at 01:02 PM

http://www.flickr.com/photos/loretobay/3794607/in/set-85931/

JR....Didn't search out the site too well?

I looked at about 7 pages of pictures

jrbaja - 3-8-2005 at 01:05 PM

and it looks pretty much the same as it did two years ago.

It also looks as if they are hornswaggling people as many suspected from the beginning. When they use a lot of sunset and scenery photos to sell homes to suckers, they post these pics rather than what you are actually buying or shots of progress.

[Edited on 3/8/2005 by jrbaja]

Cincodemayo - 3-8-2005 at 01:20 PM

Most ALL the golffront and beachfront as well as over 280 homes total now have been boondoggled, oh excuse me sold.
People with that kind of money didn't get it from being stupid. They don't buy from pictures.

February of what year?

Sharksbaja - 3-8-2005 at 01:34 PM

http://www.loretobay.com/news_articles.html

Cincodemayo - 3-8-2005 at 01:42 PM

Guess I'll have to check it out next week when I'm down there now won't I !

elgatoloco - 3-8-2005 at 01:43 PM

Please let us know what your first hand impressions are after your trip!

Thanks!

elgatoloco

Cincodemayo - 3-8-2005 at 01:49 PM

That will be no problemo! Will take many pics...

am well aware

jrbaja - 3-8-2005 at 04:57 PM

of the sales that have been made to these smart people. I am talking about getting the actual construction done:lol:
Two entirely different things in Mexico to be sure!
I would proced with caution if I were you.:light:
And by the way, either way, have a good trip.

[Edited on 3/8/2005 by jrbaja]

JR..

Cincodemayo - 3-8-2005 at 05:21 PM

I ALWAYS proceed with caution especially when money is at stake!
I also grow bamboo at my house in the Pacific NW and have about 15 different varieties. Also grow palms up here and cold hardy bananas.... Nothing like all the different palms I had in my house in Laguna Beach but they work well.

Mayo

Skeet/Loreto - 3-8-2005 at 05:34 PM

I was in Loreto when the first of the "Village Houses were Started. they are basis construction and appeared to be of good Order.
i was a little concerned about the Depth of the Footings as due to Earthquake Shakes.

I think there is no doubt that the Villages are going to be built as there is a lot of Pressure and Money involved.
I personally like the Homes being built out North of Loreto.

I am still concerned about Water / schools for the Children of the Workers as well as better Medical Facility.

We shall all await a time, sooner are later "The Fat lady will Sing or Sat down and Shut Up".
I wish only the best for the People of Loreto.

Skeet/Loreto

Skeet

Cincodemayo - 3-8-2005 at 05:43 PM

That's my main concern also is the town and the people. That's what lured me to this development and the rest of the people I've talked with so I will be way more convinced one way or the other after visiting next week. That's why my wife and I want to have it as a retirement place, as well as renting it out, is the Village envoirnment and what it will do for the town. I'm sure with all the hype about sustainability it better become that or many people will hire Guido to find the big wigs and do the Charles Bronson gig!
If it turns out like they say it should be a great place as it's already started and they have much to gain. Let's all hope...
Next week will be the Q & A session big time. The views will be awesome to say the least and NO beach vendors or time share gooks.

Mayo

Skeet/Loreto - 3-8-2005 at 05:59 PM

Before you sign the DottedLine, go out and Look at the Development about 3 miles Notrh. There are some People that would prefer that type of "Rental.

I spent many Years in Loreto The People are its Value! Good Luck.

David K - 3-8-2005 at 06:00 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Cincodemayo
I ALWAYS proceed with caution especially when money is at stake!
I also grow bamboo at my house in the Pacific NW and have about 15 different varieties. Also grow palms up here and cold hardy bananas.... Nothing like all the different palms I had in my house in Laguna Beach but they work well.


I am a former banana growing hobbiest... in Vista and Escondido... I had about 25 varieties at one time. Even traded with Doug Richardson of La Conchita. Please tell me what varieties you have grown up there? Also, where are you in the NW?

I found the Orinoco (Better Select/Burro/ Bluggoe) and Ice Cream (Blue Java/ Cenizo) to be the most cold tollerant down here. I even saw some growing in Fresno, when I lived there!

If you do a google search on my name (David Kier), you can find some of my banana growing articles that where in the California Rare Fruit Growers newsletters from the 1980's!

:D:O:light::cool:

David

Cincodemayo - 3-8-2005 at 06:38 PM

I had my greenhouse in Vista before moving up to the Seattle area. I grow Musa basjoo with no worries as it pops back every spring like gangbusters. Last year it was about 12-15 feet tall. Others I grew last year were Brazilian, Orinoco, Pisang-Ceylon and a few others but Spring will tell if they will come back. Musa basjoo can take it into the teens no problems but the harder the freeze the lower the trunks shoot out. The palms are Trachycarpus fortunii, T. takil, T. wagnerianus, T. martianus, Rapidophyllum hystrix, Washingtonia filifera and even have had a Rhapis excelsa outdoors for 3 years under protection...The Olympic penninsula is great for cold hardy tropicals!

David....

Cincodemayo - 3-8-2005 at 06:43 PM

Did you ever go to Rancho Soledad Nursery in Rancho Santa Fe? That's where I learned about all the rare palms and cycads as Jerry has been into those for years and years. Even went to his nursery in Hilo, Hi called Paradise palms and was floored with the size of the goods over there. he even had a variegated Musa about 15 feet tall...

David K - 3-8-2005 at 06:55 PM

Nope... Stallings Ranch Nursery in Encinitas, Pacific Tree Farm in Chula Vista, and Tropic World Nursery in Escondido used to buy banana pups from my friend Brian Lievens (who got me started in rare fruit growing, and who now lives on the Big Island).

My Banana book (Simmonds) is packed away, please remind me what Musa basjoo is (common names).

What greenhouse was yours in Vista? I worked at Vista Pipe and Supply from 1986-1994 and just about every nursery shopped with us...:D

Cincodemayo - 3-8-2005 at 07:26 PM

It was a 5,000sq ft plastic house in a backyard off of Melrose. I'd take everything back to my house in Laguna Beach and have weekend sales...I was doing 2,500-4,000 a weekend till my bozo neighbor turned me into the city of Laguna Beach...they sent me a letter saying they would sue unless I ceased my retail nursery biz...Jealousy from the neighbor. Oh well good while it lasted!

David..

Cincodemayo - 3-8-2005 at 07:30 PM

Musa basjoo is the fiber banana from the Ryuku Islands of Japan just like the sego palm or Cycas revoluta

David K - 3-8-2005 at 07:51 PM

Okay, that was what I thought... not an edible banana variety. Central California is the furthest north I have seen an edible banana.

Thank you!

OFF TOPIC! OFF TOPIC!

Sharksbaja - 3-8-2005 at 07:55 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by azusa_bob
OFF TOPIC! OFF TOPIC!
Ol' Sharky-B hates it when you go off topic on "his" threads!! He's a bit of a control freak about this, if you ask me!! :lol::lol::moon::moon:


u get to know folks good on these boards, you tell em Bob...



move over Abob...... you may have company

JESSE - 3-8-2005 at 09:53 PM

We need more canadians here.

friend of baja - 3-8-2005 at 09:58 PM

JR, i am curious why you distrust the developers of this project so much? Do you have any direct personal knowledge or experience with any of the principals or are you just expressing a general fear of the unknown and wish to discourage others from discovering the enchantment of Loreto.

I am a homeowner.

JESSE - 3-8-2005 at 10:04 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by friend of baja
JR, i am curious why you distrust the developers of this project so much? Do you have any direct personal knowledge or experience with any of the principals or are you just expressing a general fear of the unknown and wish to discourage others from discovering the enchantment of Loreto.

I am a homeowner.


I think Jr is distrustful of all developers, and he has valid arguments, this land rush is benefiting only foreigners, and regular Mexicans are not getting richer at all, this cannot go on for ever, eventually, resentments are going to start popping up ( some areas already have them), and its not going to be nice to live in a place where the locals dont think much about you.

Developers only care about money, and they are leaving a lot of future problems for the buyers and neighboors of those developments.

elizabeth - 3-8-2005 at 11:01 PM

We just flew back on an Alaska flight full of people who were there for Loreto Bay. One of those people claimed to have purchased a lot for 800,000.00 (this is not a typo). Would someone please explain what the appeal is in living in a Mexican village that has no Mexicans? Kind of a little like a Disney version of Mexico....and please question them about the desal plant because last I heard it was put on hold.

Beth

Skeet/Loreto - 3-9-2005 at 08:16 AM

It takes a goodly amount of Money for the Desalt Plant, that is why you do not hear too much about it. Get the Money in the Pot and then start the Structures.

As far as lving in mexico soley among Americans or Canadians poses a Question. I do not know as the many years I lived there it was among the Mexicans, I was interested in getting away from Ugly Americans and Canadians!

It might make a good Tread to get everyones Opinion if it could be done in a Adult Manner insteat of the many children who Ply this board with their Cursing and flaming.

Skeet/Loreto

wilderone - 3-9-2005 at 10:12 AM

Cindodemayo: Did you read this?
http://loretobay.com/media/Sustanability%20Program%20Update....

Explains that they do not intend to construct the desal plant until an apparent need. If they're telling you something different now, wouldn't that at least tell you they're talking out of both sides of their mouths? Do your own homework. Lord knows, I have, but you all want to "believe." Give them your money - I don't care. If you have 10 years or so to see some semblance of what they envision, then maybe your spent dollars will be worth it. But if you want to start going down there to enjoy yourselves, then buy someplace else.

Mayo

Skeet/Loreto - 3-9-2005 at 10:37 AM

When you go to buy in Loreto ,figure out what type of Lofe you would like to Lead then choose.

If I moved back to Loreto I would find a House or Lot for Sale in the Community of Loreto. I prefer everyday living among the Mexican People.

Better than that , go down and Rent for 6 months or a Year. then you can have more Knowledge to Buiy.

Skeet/Loreto

Loreto Bay

jrbaja - 3-9-2005 at 12:26 PM

Cinco de Mayo, the people in Laguna Beach are pretty open minded about things and did you not learn a lesson there? That was nothing compared to what Loreto Bay is turning into!!:lol:
Friend, I am most certainly against ruining this peninsula with a bunch of pink houses and gringos where there were once beautiful beaches, mountains and arroyos. San Gabriel Valley used to be like that a long time ago!
But, after having traveled here for a long time and living here for 10 years, I have seen a number of similar projects. This one has been questionable from the start and I personally am highly suspect of unclear pictures being painted.
Friends of mine who know Baja went to one of their meetings in Loreto and were amazed after leaving at the lack of knowledge and questions they were unable to answer.
Something is not quite right about this thing and the fact that so many homes have been sold and so little has been done I would be quite nervous if I were into gringo enclaves.:light:

Big biz needs big moola

Sharksbaja - 3-9-2005 at 12:39 PM

After looking at how Fonatur does biz, I would be careful also.....
looks like a major steet-widening project is happening.....scary! Hey JR, I watched the utter distruction of So Cal too. Nobody, with few exceptions could want that, could they???:(:(:(:(:(:no:

Bruce R Leech - 3-9-2005 at 12:51 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by elizabeth
We just flew back on an Alaska flight full of people who were there for Loreto Bay. One of those people claimed to have purchased a lot for 800,000.00 (this is not a typo). Would someone please explain what the appeal is in living in a Mexican village that has no Mexicans? Kind of a little like a Disney version of Mexico....and please question them about the desal plant because last I heard it was put on hold.


Elizabeth think some people just like to be a big fish in a Little pond.

Laguna Beach

Cincodemayo - 3-9-2005 at 02:29 PM

Laguna Beach had nothing to do with the demise of Orange county. Laguna Niguel and the stretch along Corona Del Mar, Dana Point and Crown Valley Parkway were where all the uglyassed homes were perched on the hillsides and people wondered why the hills were sliding. I remember all the orange groves and a great 2 lane highway thru the hills would leave you at an awesome beach....No more as the traffic and the congestion snarl everything. I was with the Fire Dept. there for 13 years and we couldn't get anywhere with the traffic. Can't stop building and developers. Look how screwed up Cabo became and I was there in 1980 when there were a half dozen hotels total....lots back then were cheap and now look at em! That's progress? It's going to happen no matter what, you can bit-h all you want but it's going to happen. That's the reality of the human race unfortunately.

saving Baja

Sharksbaja - 3-9-2005 at 02:38 PM

we just want to keep the Canadians out...(the ones that hate us anyway)

:lol:

EH?

Cincodemayo - 3-9-2005 at 02:43 PM

Sharks..
Unfortunately they are everywhere too! just look at any and every timeshare across the globe and they will be piching their hype, EH? They are everywhere in Palm Desert and I remember going there when there were just date palms and the Date Festival...Now Paseo de Valencia is like Rodeo Drive...:fire:

Puertos Los Cabos

bajajudy - 3-9-2005 at 03:03 PM

For those of you who have not seen this project, hold onto your shorts. It will outdo anything in Loreto for raping the environment, moving Mexicans out so an "Authentic" Mexican village can be built, no plans for sewage or desal.

http://www. puertosloscabos.com

I know that most of you dont care for the Los Cabos area but this was a quiet little fishing village until the big bucks rolled in. 1800 houses, two golf courses in phase I. I was living in what you all have described as a Mexican village. All my neighbors are Mexican, we had horses, goats, chickens, burros roaming around until they paved the roads and the 100's of trucks necessary to move all the dirt from the huge hole for the marina arrived The mosquitoes are the worst they have ever been....could it be the acres of fresh water sitting around waiting for the yachts to arrive.

Heres the kicker....they are not Canadians...they're Mexicans. Of course with Fonatur's blessing
Thanks for letting me b-tch.

Dave - 3-9-2005 at 03:41 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by bajajudy
Heres the kicker....they are not Canadians...they're Mexicans. Of course with Fonatur's blessing


Exactly.

Mexico WANTS us here. Otherwise they wouldn't have enacted legislation allowing us to live and purchase property here.

bajajudy - 3-9-2005 at 08:37 PM

Of course Mexico wants us here. My point was that they(the Mexican developers of Puertoloscabos) are doing it to their own.

Sharksbaja - 3-9-2005 at 09:14 PM

......gag......puke....thats all I can muster....:barf::barf::barf::barf::barf::barf:

JESSE - 3-9-2005 at 09:16 PM

All i know is that this current way of making both developers and the Mexican elite rich while leaving the general population to suffer in poverty cannot work for ever, it is not the fault of the developer if the Mexican politicians and the elite that owns them is selling everything to make a quick buck, but the people also have the right to not like the fact that everybody is making a buck and they are not, and little by little, they are losing their beaches, and find themselves living in poverty right next to mutimillion dollar homes.

friend of baja - 3-9-2005 at 09:21 PM

The Villages of Loreto Bay is arguably the most important development in the world today. Many of this planets environmental and social heavyweights have converged to plan, design and build a truly sustainable village.

Those naysayers and blind critics on this board should embrace this development and support its cause, for the alternative is another Cabo and it nearly happened. Make no mistake, development will occur, the Mexicans want it as does the town of Loreto. Can we do it with respect for every life form that is currently there, the plan says yes, the execution requires trust and patience. I have a good measure of both.

JESSE - 3-9-2005 at 09:29 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by friend of baja
The Villages of Loreto Bay is arguably the most important development in the world today. Many of this planets environmental and social heavyweights have converged to plan, design and build a truly sustainable village.

Those naysayers and blind critics on this board should embrace this development and support its cause, for the alternative is another Cabo and it nearly happened. Make no mistake, development will occur, the Mexicans want it as does the town of Loreto. Can we do it with respect for every life form that is currently there, the plan says yes, the execution requires trust and patience. I have a good measure of both.


I wonder how many Mexicans are actually going to afford to live there, this is all about greed, money, and not much else.

who cares?

Sharksbaja - 3-9-2005 at 09:39 PM

Tell those great futurist people to help save the Sea. Why is it that what attracted people here in the first place will be the last to be addressed? I bet I know..............not nearly as much profit as common walls. Take a look at developed Islands all over the world. A big hook are all the water sports, si? I see zero to little participation by those huge concerns in promoting the health of Baja with its uncertain future. And I would happily argue the fact of how important that development is in the world. Important to who exactly?

JESSE - 3-9-2005 at 09:50 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Sharksbaja
Tell those great futurist people to help save the Sea. Why is it that what attracted people here in the first place will be the last to be addressed? I bet I know..............not nearly as much profit as common walls. Take a look at developed Islands all over the world. A big hook are all the water sports, si? I see zero to little participation by those huge concerns in promoting the health of Baja with its uncertain future. And I would happily argue the fact of how important that development is in the world. Important to who exactly?


Development has done nothing for the regular people of Baja, the more and more development, the more and more people from central Mexico move here, they bring their drugs, their violence, their high attitudes, and the people from Baja stay the same. Look at southern baja, or here in the so called "gold coast", you have a tiny minority of Mexicans making money, a lot of developers making money, and the people are the same.

If the developers truly where concerned about their customers and the locals, they would find ways to integrate the locals into the economy, not just use them as laborers. This rising crime wave is not stopping, and eventually, those nice beach houses full of elderly people are going to start looking plenty good for violent criminals, we are heading into a wall, and unless something changes fast, all those owners of those houses are going to find themselves living in gated, barbed wired, 24hr security prisons, unable to enjoy the Baja lifestyle we all love.

This is not good for us locals, or for you our guests, i would be very concerned about this if i was you.

Sharksbaja - 3-9-2005 at 09:59 PM

I concur 100%. Sure, with all those people comes all the crap. When it comes to keeping up in the world, tourism is at the forefront for many poor, undeveloped countries. If it were possible to slow or plan development on a grand inclusive scale it wouldn't happen anyway. The money talks first and as all the land is filled in everyone forgets what they have been filling. Not to worry tho, 20 yrs from now nobody will know the difference.:(

friend of baja - 3-9-2005 at 10:38 PM

People, I understand your cynicism and you are entitled to your opinions, but your judgments about development and developers are based on your own biases and paradigms. Please consider for a moment that maybe, just maybe, this time it will be different. Your point about the locals being left behind economically is valid and believe me this point has not been lost on David Butterfield and Jim Grogan. As most of you know Mexico's financial structure does not permit collateral mortgages, so businesses and homes are built, brick by brick over time as money allows and many good business ideas and dreams remain just that...unmet and unfulfilled because of a lack of financing.

Loreto Bay is committing one percent of all real estate sales and re-sales, and one percent of all gross rental revenue to a Community Trust Fund to be used for this very purpose. To date close to $1 million has already been deposited into this Trust Fund. This is but one example of the social conscience being applied to the Villages of Loreto Bay.

JESSE - 3-9-2005 at 10:44 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by friend of baja
People, I understand your cynicism and you are entitled to your opinions, but your judgments about development and developers are based on your own biases and paradigms. Please consider for a moment that maybe, just maybe, this time it will be different. Your point about the locals being left behind economically is valid and believe me this point has not been lost on David Butterfield and Jim Grogan. As most of you know Mexico's financial structure does not permit collateral mortgages, so businesses and homes are built, brick by brick over time as money allows and many good business ideas and dreams remain just that...unmet and unfulfilled because of a lack of financing.

Loreto Bay is committing one percent of all real estate sales and re-sales, and one percent of all gross rental revenue to a Community Trust Fund to be used for this very purpose. To date close to $1 million has already been deposited into this Trust Fund. This is but one example of the social conscience being applied to the Villages of Loreto Bay.


I am not saying all development is bad, but so far, what i have seen all over Baja is just awful, i hope that development is done as best for the community as it can, because if this company fails to take into consideration the local people, it will find that it will create an area where locals resent the new homeowners, violence and crime will surely follow, and who is going to want to buy more homes in a community like that.

By the way, i would pay very close attention to who ever controls that fund, i truly hope its not in the hands of a Mexican official.

friend of baja - 3-9-2005 at 10:57 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Sharksbaja
Tell those great futurist people to help save the Sea. Why is it that what attracted people here in the first place will be the last to be addressed? I bet I know..............not nearly as much profit as common walls. Take a look at developed Islands all over the world. A big hook are all the water sports, si? I see zero to little participation by those huge concerns in promoting the health of Baja with its uncertain future. And I would happily argue the fact of how important that development is in the world. Important to who exactly?


To mankind and every living creature and plant form, to the future of this planet, to your kids and mine. To say Loreto Bay is a great experiment is a gross understatement. There are few places on earth where a concept this profound can be attempted and the remoteness of Loreto Bay is one. It has to be an area isolated from the destructive habits of man, where consumption and consumerism don't dominate, and where the car is not king.

THE NEW LORETO

roundtuit - 3-9-2005 at 11:08 PM

I was in Cabo when they didn't even have the first hotel finished. Look at it now. Hate to see this happen to Loreto. If you want yo see all the : promo search www.discoverloretobay.com
Be sure an take a B**F BAG with you

sustainability

Sharksbaja - 3-9-2005 at 11:22 PM

Iam tring to envision this sustainability thing. I cant make sense of all this. What exactly does it mean and how does it play into the average Loreto citizens life. Big claims are being made to rest assure everyone that the project is giving back. Giving back what? A trust fund is just like a bank account. Do you already trust and know how the money will be spent. If you do a little math, you may find that figure does not factor in the administration costs which can be huge. It becomes hard to endorse these mega-projects as the real focus is on the bottom line like most biz. To say it isn't would be a terrific mistake. This is not Orlando, and not Canada and not Arizona. To group this project with the other "sustainable" projects the developers have undertaken would only fools the fools.

an excerpt from The San Diego Source;The Daily Transcript

His vision is taking shape nicely. Programs for sustainable energy, water generation and land stewardship are already in place, under the care of Vice President for Sustainability David Veniot, former head of EarthDay International, and consultant Bill Reed, founder of the Integrative Design Collaborative. These are heavyweights in the world of sustainability, who won't be content to simply preserve what is already here but are installing programs that enhance the environment by creating more energy and water than is consumed, and expanding the biodiversity of the region......


I'll believe it when I see it....

wilderone - 3-10-2005 at 09:46 AM

"Friend" of Baja, you state: "Loreto Bay is committing one percent of all real estate sales and re-sales, and one percent of all gross rental revenue to a Community Trust Fund to be used for this very purpose. To date close to $1 million has already been deposited into this Trust Fund. This is but one example of the social conscience being applied to the Villages of Loreto Bay."

For starters, The formation of the Foundation was a condition precedent to the closing on the purchase of the land in Phase 1 of the Villages of LB Project. The 1% in perpetuity is part of a trust agreement with the Mexican government.

Furthermore, Fact: As of the Dec. 2004 Year End Report, the balance for the Fudacion Bahia de Loreto was $7,390. In 6 months time (Jun 04-Dec 04), they accumulated a balance of $70,129, had "expenses" of $54,769 and gave out two grants: one to Pro Peninsula for $5,000 so a few people could attend the Loreto Turtle Group meeting; and $2,900 to the Intl Ecotourism Society to develop a course in tourism. Doesn't sound to me like they're managing the funds very well, when over 70% of the income is spent on administration. I'd want to know how much money Butterfield skims out of that, or else, where is the expense money being spent. Another thing that might interest you is "The Foundation is in the process of becoming the concession holder to manage the Zofemat, the 20-meter strip of land upland from the high water mark, which will continue to be owned by the federal government. We believe that this strip of land will be best protected for the longer term if the Foundation rather than the developer controls it." Sounds to me like they're using this "Foundation" as a conduit for more purposes than philanthropic, and I doubt has anything to do with "social conscious."

There are so many things that make me ill about the Villages of Loreto Bay that I don't even want to think about it anymore. The damage has been done - the beautiful bay is GONE. FOREVER. Go ahead - live there in the narrow streets driving your electric golf cart, with f___ Canadians as your neighbors. I know I said I wouldn't post anymore about LB, but you all are just so ignorant.

elizabeth - 3-10-2005 at 10:33 AM

I, for one, appreciate the factual material posted by wilderone. Everybody has opinions...but this project needs to be looked at by analyzing the facts, not the advertising hype.

And...I'm a little tired of hearing that somethng is o.k. because "the Mexicans" want it. There is NO monolithic "the Mexicans"...the government does not always have the social and environmental issues firmly in hand when money is on the table.

I don't think my (US) government represents my concerns and issues...so why would I think that the Mexican government represents all Mexican viewpoints?

Friends of

jrbaja - 3-10-2005 at 11:04 AM

when you say that the Mexicans are in favor of this project, I was wondering how you actually know that and if it includes all Mexicans here in Baja or just the ones selling the project.

life in Loreto

Sharksbaja - 3-10-2005 at 11:40 AM







Thank you for the valuable input. It is very easy with a PR machine(no, not JR machine) to influence the masses. It is done time and time again. Anyone who thinks that what thay are hearing from the PR people is up to date and factual have another thing coming. Glossing over huge developments with promises of utopia are things my generation is accustomed to. We have witnessed the same scenario over and over. The end result: concrete, golf courses and people, rural people. Is this the way Baja is supposed to morph? Do we want it to look not unlike any other resort town? My question is simple. Why here? Becauce the Mexican Gov. chose it as one of their"chosen cities" to remake into a mecca for wealthy,lazy North Americans.


Friend of Baja said:
Quote:

To say Loreto Bay is a great experiment is a gross understatement. There are few places on earth where a concept this profound can be attempted and the remoteness of Loreto Bay is one. It has to be an area isolated from the destructive habits of man, where consumption and consumerism don't dominate, and where the car is not king.




Wilderone said:
Quote:

"The Foundation is in the process of becoming the concession holder to manage the Zofemat, the 20-meter strip of land upland from the high water mark, which will continue to be owned by the federal government.




Loreto Bay said:

"What you won't see at Loreto Bay is condos on the beach, cars zipping in and out of traffic, or beach vendors. What you will find is an 8,000-acre seaside community along three miles of beachfront When completed, Loreto Bay will feature 6,000 homes constructed primarily of adobe block, arranged in pedestrian-friendly neighborhoods, plus a beach club, specialty spas, golf courses, boutique hotels, a sport fishing center and marina, and a vibrant town center with restaurants, shops, galleries and entertainment venues.
Five thousand acres will be set aside for a green land preserve for recreation and agriculture, including organic farming.
Early entry pricing has attracted buyers interested in vacation or retirement living in a destination focused on health, fitness and sustainability. More than 200 homes have been sold to owners from California, Washington, Arizona, Colorado, British Columbia and Alberta".

I believe that the'Foundation for Sustainability" is one and the same as the developer. Do you see a difference between this so-called "earth friendl" developments and any other grand scale projects to attract people from cooler climates. This is not so special or different in my book!

Every travel board has points and counterpoints

Cincodemayo - 3-10-2005 at 11:58 AM

But lets face it kids, the groundwork was already in and scraped with streets ALREADY in. "ALREADY IN". That's a huge start for getting the ball rolling. Now as we all know getting things started in good ol Mexico requires time...manana is the most utilized word. Would you prefer some grandioso developer building gargantuan hotels all along the 3 miles of bay? A big no bueno on that one? Well for me what they have planned and I do mean planned because it's going to be developed whether you like it or not, I like what I hear and so did everyone else at the Seattle seminar. Hey people can say whatever they want and do whatever they want afterwards, just look at politicians, but I believe this will be an awesome thing if and when it's steaming along. With all the retail planned and the employment for locals I think it will really have a positive benefit. So for the benefit of all the negative souls on this board and we all know every travel board has the usual live in flamers, I will see first hand next week what's on tap. I plan to turn over every rock for information and go into town to see the other side of Loreto. So flamers have at it. Nobody wants change when they have been in their comfort zone but it is inevitable.....just hope it will bring good and not another Cabo San Pucas. Granted there is big bucks to be made but there is also the opportunity to something so different that it will do nothing but help out tremendously the economy of Loreto making that usual line of distinction between wealth and poverty more of a past tense for the locals....show em the money as the owners will frequenting the local businesses and restaurants and sports activities. Like the old saying "You can give a fish to a man and he can eat for a night or you can teach him to fish and he can eat for a lifetime....something like that anyhoo.

elizabeth - 3-10-2005 at 12:08 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by friend of baja
Your point about the locals being left behind economically is valid and believe me this point has not been lost on David Butterfield and Jim Grogan.


Oh really, then why don't they do something creative, like a percentage of Loreto Bay units set aside as low income housing with sales only to local Mexicans? Hey, if we can do a proportion of low income housing in overinflated Marin County developments, I don't know why they can't do it there.

I guess they don't want the authentic Mexican Village of Loreto Bay cluttered up with Mexican families...at least not after they[ve finished cleaning the houses.

Developers.........

Pompano - 3-10-2005 at 12:33 PM

Whatever their other contributions to our society, developers could be an important source of protein.

Bruce R Leech - 3-10-2005 at 12:54 PM

Quote:
Quote

Oh really, then why don't they do something creative, like a percentage of Loreto Bay units set aside as low income housing with sales only to local Mexicans? Hey, if we can do a proportion of low income housing in overinflated Marin County developments, I don't know why they can't do it there.

I guess they don't want the authentic Mexican Village of Loreto Bay cluttered up with Mexican families...at least not after they[ve finished cleaning the houses.


Elizabeth is right. also where are all those rich people going to git there pet Mexican servants slaves and Gardeners if they don't provide something for them to live in. what are they going to give back to the community? nothing just another gated community for the rich to sit around in and pity the poor. it makes them feel so much more wealthy when they can look over the fence and see people living in cardboard shacks.

wilderone - 3-10-2005 at 01:18 PM

" Would you prefer some grandioso developer building gargantuan hotels all along the 3 miles of bay??

Can you tell me the distinction between that and 6,000 homes packed in 3 miles of coastal bay habitat and confined on one side by the Sierra de la Giganta? Can you honestly tell me with a straight face that 6,000 homes, 5 swimming pools, two spas, 2 golf courses, marina, village center with shops, restaurants, HOTEL, etc. isn't the same thing? At least Cabo is situated in the Pacific Ocean which can flush out a lot of its filth. They also plan a fishing pier. I've got some news for them - there aren't any fish in the bay, as their much belated "environmental baseline" ecological study will show. Another thing that is particularly disturbing is that they plan 5,000 acres as a "preserve" (which to most people means they will simply leave it alone in its pristine condition), but, oh no, LB plans to take this "preserve", fence it, "revegetate" it, "green" it, build water retention weirs, put in a plant nursery and create an organic farm. Does that sound like a "preserve" to you? It's mind-boggling in its misconception. If they don't want a desert environment, they ought to build they're trash in CANADA. (oh yeah, they tried, but failed fue to ill-conceived plans.) If they had any expertise regarding the plant nursery, to take just one instance, they would have salvaged all the plants they scraped and destroyed along the coast and put them in the nursery, along with the very fragile topsoil in which they thrive (as is required now in some mining reclamation projects). Do they have any idea of the species of plants and cacti they think they will be cultivating? Or who is going to be working in this organic farm? Oh, Mexicans from Loreto - this must be one of the long-awaited jobs which will enhance their lives. Can they even state why they're creating an organic farm? What are they planning to grow on this farm. Ask them. Ask to see the actual sewage system. Ask them if the marina is guaranteed to be built. (Hint: read the fine print in the brochure). Ask them if they can guarantee that the Beach Club will be completed. (Hint: read p. 3 of the Oct '04 newsletter). We await.

wildone

Cincodemayo - 3-10-2005 at 01:51 PM

Obviously nothing said here will change the way you interpret things about developments. Enough said there. I can make my own mind up as nothing was ever handed to me and I'm not doing too bad with what I've earned....that means not throwing it to someone pitching a pipedream? Say that to all who invested in Cabo and it's a total mishmash of wealth and poverty. Hopefully and I take that with a giant grain of salt, things will be different in loreto....but I know already that you'll have a 20 paragraph response all negative. Flame on....:fire:

Sharksbaja - 3-10-2005 at 02:16 PM

To some it IS a negative issue.

Cincodemayo - 3-10-2005 at 02:29 PM

To some it will be a positive issue. To others change and development will eat them up till they explode. Things don't stand still nor do they go backwards. It's going to happen so that's the reality of it.

elizabeth - 3-10-2005 at 02:34 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Pompano
Whatever their other contributions to our society, developers could be an important source of protein.


I think this is off-topic and should be put under Baja Recipes.

Grover

Cincodemayo - 3-10-2005 at 02:51 PM

I've been to way too many! Try the Balitravelforum and say anything negative about the Balinese. I've been to Bali twice and the moneychangers are the worst! Actually the most antagonistic is the Lonely Planet travel Forum. That's total chaos...

Dave - 3-10-2005 at 03:17 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by elizabeth
Oh really, then why don't they do something creative, like a percentage of Loreto Bay units set aside as low income housing with sales only to local Mexicans? Hey, if we can do a proportion of low income housing in overinflated Marin County developments, I don't know why they can't do it there.

I guess they don't want the authentic Mexican Village of Loreto Bay cluttered up with Mexican families...at least not after they[ve finished cleaning the houses.


When developers set aside for low income it is because state/local governments require it.

What has BCS and Loreto required of this development? After all, isn't it their responsibility? I'm sure the development obtained all necessary permits from city/state/federal.

So you shouldn't worry, right? :biggrin:

Rickman - 3-10-2005 at 03:41 PM

Paved roads with lights don't mean anything else is going to happen...at least for quite a while, and maybe never. I am not really familiar with this Loreto Bay thing, but I remember Nopolo Bay with the John McEnroe tennis stadium. They had paved streets with lights and it seems like the last time I went by, the paved streets with the lights were still there. No houses though. I think the only Big developement in Loreto will be one of these "ecologically correct" things to suck people in. The climate doesn't lend itself to "resort hotels". People with the big bucks want to soak up the rays in the winter. They don't want to put up with 5 days of North wind. Don't get me wrong, I love Loreto. I used to launch out of Escondido Bay and camp out in those crazy yellow and white tents. But, it isn't for everyone. It's the same thing with the East Cape where I built a house. Too much wind in the winter. It is too bad for Cabo that it has that weather. It used to be neat.
By the way, I always wanted to put together a coffee table book of Baja pictures showing the "Grand Entrance Erections" that Mexican/Canadian/American developers came up with. Almost everyone of them is broken down, or covered with weeds.

JESSE - 3-10-2005 at 04:16 PM

Don?t be surprised if in the near future, you start to see demonstrations against these type of developments, i would love to see the face of those developers if the locals started to greet their customers with signs saying rather mean things.

Junior

Cincodemayo - 3-10-2005 at 04:19 PM

Been going to Baja for 25 years Mr. expert. Did I ever say I had heaps of $$...do you always turn stories around?
Your kind are on every forum...Who just posted he had the inside on acreage and lots but to go thru him and HAD to commit some of the property for Bamboo growing. Hot dang the kettle is black! Noticed you are as much on the fence as Kerry? Don't know which way to fall...

Like

jrbaja - 3-10-2005 at 04:19 PM

take your useless lame arses home P-nche gringos?:lol::lol::lol:

Cincodemayo - 3-10-2005 at 04:23 PM

take your useless lame arses home P-nche gringos?

Oh no now I'm crushed. The good, the bad and the jr's.

Since I haven't toyed with the fodder recently

jrbaja - 3-10-2005 at 04:29 PM

this is a pleasant change. I've always enjoyed being the verbal punching bag for mindless marooons who pretend to know baja on a message board.
Look pinhead, all I said was to be careful. You have yer head so far up your loreto bay that you won't even listen to others ideas.
These are the types they are looking for and obviously, you will fit right in. As far as the P-nche gringo comment, it was in reference to the signs you will be seeing. As far as you being one, from your posts, I would sure guess that you are.
Buena suerte genius:lol:

Cincodemayo - 3-10-2005 at 04:33 PM


Oh yeah, this is something I'd trust...why not just donate it to your bamboo endeavors heck I'll give you a 30% comission and bring down a truckload of Phyllostachys negra "Hinon" for ya.


Before it's all gone

I bring you this because I am watching the land disappear around me. It is being bought up by foreigners at gringo prices and I don't know any of these people.
My friends down here are all becoming envious of the sales and are interested in selling some of theirs to help put their kids through school and have some money.
Here's the deal. I can get a few properties at Mexican prices and their are no realtors involved. It is strictly through the landowners, yourself and a notario publico. Fidiecomisos are easily attained on the properties.
The properties range in size, the smallest being three acres and the largest about fifty acres. Some are cleared and some are not but they all have potable water (the best!).
Examples, 15 acres with an acre already cleared for building $25,000.00. 3 acres cleared and leveled $15,000.00
I ask that a small portion of the properties be used for growing bamboo for San Bartolo Bamboo.
This serves two purposes, You will be helping by growing bamboo and becoming involved with a community. This means Mexican prices for backhoes, tractors, manguera, and everything involved with country living. This is a huge savings!
I will ask for a 10%commision on any sales and also that a small portion of the property be used for growing bamboo for San Bartolo Bamboo.
These are incredible deals as I just watched my neighbor sell his house and small lot for $20,000.00 u.s. to some folks from Alaska who are my new neighbors.
If anyone is seriously interested, send Carol $25.00 and I will go and take pictures and get all the information regarding the properties.
I figure the fee will cut down on uninterested riff raff that just need something to do
:moon:

Cincodemayo - 3-10-2005 at 04:53 PM

Is this the Real Estate tycoon himself?

wilderone - 3-10-2005 at 05:37 PM

"Don?t be surprised if in the near future, you start to see demonstrations against these type of developments, i would love to see the face of those developers if the locals started to greet their customers with signs saying rather mean things."

Now there's an idea. Charter a bus - big signs - camp on the beach. Call in Gringo Gazette. Love it. When?

Dave - 3-10-2005 at 09:12 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by JESSE
Don?t be surprised if in the near future, you start to see demonstrations against these type of developments, i would love to see the face of those developers if the locals started to greet their customers with signs saying rather mean things.


Questions:

Why would you think the locals would be against these projects?

If so, why wouldn't the locals protest before the projects are approved and permits issued?

A large development like this had to receive approval from the national government. If there were demonstrations and the local police couldn't handle the job, I would suspect the army would show up and haul the demonstrators away.

I am neither for or against these projects. I DO find fault in blaming the developers. It is Mexicans who sell the property, Mexicans who elect and appoint the officials who approve them, Mexicans who issue permits for their construction and Mexico that grants foreigners the right to live here.

friend of baja - 3-10-2005 at 09:25 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by wilderone
"Friend" of Baja, you state: "Loreto Bay is committing one percent of all real estate sales and re-sales, and one percent of all gross rental revenue to a Community Trust Fund to be used for this very purpose. To date close to $1 million has already been deposited into this Trust Fund. This is but one example of the social conscience being applied to the Villages of Loreto Bay."

For starters, The formation of the Foundation was a condition precedent to the closing on the purchase of the land in Phase 1 of the Villages of LB Project. The 1% in perpetuity is part of a trust agreement with the Mexican government.

Furthermore, Fact: As of the Dec. 2004 Year End Report, the balance for the Fudacion Bahia de Loreto was $7,390. In 6 months time (Jun 04-Dec 04), they accumulated a balance of $70,129, had "expenses" of $54,769 and gave out two grants: one to Pro Peninsula for $5,000 so a few people could attend the Loreto Turtle Group meeting; and $2,900 to the Intl Ecotourism Society to develop a course in tourism. Doesn't sound to me like they're managing the funds very well, when over 70% of the income is spent on administration. I'd want to know how much money Butterfield skims out of that, or else, where is the expense money being spent. Another thing that might interest you is "The Foundation is in the process of becoming the concession holder to manage the Zofemat, the 20-meter strip of land upland from the high water mark, which will continue to be owned by the federal government. We believe that this strip of land will be best protected for the longer term if the Foundation rather than the developer controls it." Sounds to me like they're using this "Foundation" as a conduit for more purposes than philanthropic, and I doubt has anything to do with "social conscious."

There are so many things that make me ill about the Villages of Loreto Bay that I don't even want to think about it anymore. The damage has been done - the beautiful bay is GONE. FOREVER. Go ahead - live there in the narrow streets driving your electric golf cart, with f___ Canadians as your neighbors. I know I said I wouldn't post anymore about LB, but you all are just so ignorant.


wilderone, I can tell you are passionate and caring about the baja and for that you have my respect. I went back and re-read my email and do need to correct what I said about the balance in the trust fund. I should have said that based on the total sales to date (approx. $100 million) the Trust is OWED $1 million, and since LB hasn't actually collected this amount the balance reflects that. Sorry.
I and many other homeowners that I have spoken to are committed to the sustainability goals of this project, after all it is the reason many of us are there. I promise to follow up on this and hold everyones feet to the fire.

friend of baja - 3-10-2005 at 09:33 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by elizabeth
I, for one, appreciate the factual material posted by wilderone. Everybody has opinions...but this project needs to be looked at by analyzing the facts, not the advertising hype.

And...I'm a little tired of hearing that somethng is o.k. because "the Mexicans" want it. There is NO monolithic "the Mexicans"...the government does not always have the social and environmental issues firmly in hand when money is on the table.

I don't think my (US) government represents my concerns and issues...so why would I think that the Mexican government represents all Mexican viewpoints?


Elizabeth, my point on this was that because Fonatur has designated Loreto as an international tourist destination, isn't it better to develop in an ecologically sensitive way, rather than build another Cancun or Cabo.

Nobody said democracy was perfect, but its sure better than the alternatives.

friend of baja - 3-10-2005 at 09:40 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by jrbaja
when you say that the Mexicans are in favor of this project, I was wondering how you actually know that and if it includes all Mexicans here in Baja or just the ones selling the project.


Actually JR, I asked them. It was such a huge point of interest from homeowners that we talked to as many locals as possible. The most negative comment I heard and it was repeat several times was, that "they had been promised development in the past only to be disappointed, so why should they get excited this time."

friend of baja - 3-10-2005 at 09:49 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by elizabeth
Quote:
Originally posted by friend of baja
Your point about the locals being left behind economically is valid and believe me this point has not been lost on David Butterfield and Jim Grogan.


Oh really, then why don't they do something creative, like a percentage of Loreto Bay units set aside as low income housing with sales only to local Mexicans? Hey, if we can do a proportion of low income housing in overinflated Marin County developments, I don't know why they can't do it there.

I guess they don't want the authentic Mexican Village of Loreto Bay cluttered up with Mexican families...at least not after they[ve finished cleaning the houses.


Elizabeth, on this point I agree with you, as do many other of the homeowners. All I can tell you at this point, is the concept is being considered. Are you aware that this project has committed to a Regional Housing Affordability Strategy to ensure direct benefits accrue to the local citizens.

Dave - 3-10-2005 at 09:57 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by friend of baja
has committed to a Regional Housing Affordability Strategy


Whaa?

Sounds great! What the hell is it?:lol:

friend of baja - 3-10-2005 at 10:10 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by wilderone
" Would you prefer some grandioso developer building gargantuan hotels all along the 3 miles of bay??

Can you tell me the distinction between that and 6,000 homes packed in 3 miles of coastal bay habitat and confined on one side by the Sierra de la Giganta? Can you honestly tell me with a straight face that 6,000 homes, 5 swimming pools, two spas, 2 golf courses, marina, village center with shops, restaurants, HOTEL, etc. isn't the same thing? At least Cabo is situated in the Pacific Ocean which can flush out a lot of its filth. They also plan a fishing pier. I've got some news for them - there aren't any fish in the bay, as their much belated "environmental baseline" ecological study will show. Another thing that is particularly disturbing is that they plan 5,000 acres as a "preserve" (which to most people means they will simply leave it alone in its pristine condition), but, oh no, LB plans to take this "preserve", fence it, "revegetate" it, "green" it, build water retention weirs, put in a plant nursery and create an organic farm. Does that sound like a "preserve" to you? It's mind-boggling in its misconception. If they don't want a desert environment, they ought to build they're trash in CANADA. (oh yeah, they tried, but failed fue to ill-conceived plans.) If they had any expertise regarding the plant nursery, to take just one instance, they would have salvaged all the plants they scraped and destroyed along the coast and put them in the nursery, along with the very fragile topsoil in which they thrive (as is required now in some mining reclamation projects). Do they have any idea of the species of plants and cacti they think they will be cultivating? Or who is going to be working in this organic farm? Oh, Mexicans from Loreto - this must be one of the long-awaited jobs which will enhance their lives. Can they even state why they're creating an organic farm? What are they planning to grow on this farm. Ask them. Ask to see the actual sewage system. Ask them if the marina is guaranteed to be built. (Hint: read the fine print in the brochure). Ask them if they can guarantee that the Beach Club will be completed. (Hint: read p. 3 of the Oct '04 newsletter). We await.


Wilderone, most urban planners will tell you that a certain threshold density is required (5000 homes) to sustain an economic base, and where all services can be provided within easy walking distance, hence the 6000 homes. Fencing the preserve is necessay to protect it from overgrazing (as I have been told, I admit I have not walked this area) and allow it to regenerate. The nursery and farm are not part of the reserve, the organic farm is for food, the sewage treatment plant is built, and the beach club will begin construction this year (Feb 05 newsletter)

tim40 - 3-10-2005 at 10:44 PM

At the risk of being told, what do you have against Canadians? And before you ask, nope I am not one. I am a Native SoCal person. Dollar for dollar, I would guess, and it is purely that, my neighbors within 90 miles of me have bought and changed the landscape of more of baja than the rest of the world combined.

I have suggested it before....IF a person is really interested in preserving something why don't they put their time, energy and monies where their heart is and find ways to buy and preserve the land of interest? Talk is one thing, action is another. Get serious, get organized, become 'official' and I am willing to bet many of us on this board and those we influence throughout our lives would be donors to the cause....

[Edited on 3-11-2005 by tim40]

I remember the way it was...... 10 years ago

Sharksbaja - 3-10-2005 at 11:36 PM

Is that what we will say about Loreto in nine years??

After reading these posts I have a clearer picture of what it will like when complete, that is if they hold true to the master plan. It is obvious people including myself oppose and support such large developments. Mexico(and others) is reaping huge sums along the way. Most people who want to invest in Baja do so in part because so little is left along the west coast in the US. The cost of beach front property in Ca. is beyond most peoples income and who would want a house there anyway? The people are attracted by the lower cost of property and homes in Mexico. It doesnt take a rocket scientist to figure out where the next hot market is. Americans need these types of developments mainly cause they are spoiled and lazy. Why else would you need all that crap. Are there not enough mini-mall type cancers already? Sure, it is a subjective subject. Most of us are all to familiar with new developments. Most of us grew up in the west. I personally think any mega project on the scale of this is inappropriate in order to actually maintain an ecological balance. The balance gets more skewed the bigger it is. Just by covering over that much land. Iam sure all on this board want the Mexicans to benefit from all this....... I don't think we can really forcast the true outcome because it will seem or be like another place and Iam afraid it won't be Loreto.:no::no::no::no:

Packoderm - 3-11-2005 at 12:02 AM

"Americans need these types of developments mainly cause they are spoiled and lazy."

I don't think it is entirely accurate to label these people lazy; they're the world's most productive workers for Pete's sake. It takes a lot of perseverance and sacrifice from most of these people to be able to be in the real estate market as described in this thread. The real problem is that everyplace is getting too crowded - just too many people competing for the same things.

lORETO ! Oh my Ole Loreto!!

Skeet/Loreto - 3-11-2005 at 09:37 AM

After living in Loreto, fulltime for 17 years, going there first in 1968, I can only say that i do not think this Development will destroy the Heart of most of the Mexican People.
The change will be in those Canadians the need the "Closness of their Canadian Friends" to survive.

Contrary to what has been Posted, there are places of "Piece and Quiet". I live about 9 miles South of Amarillo, Texas among about 50 Wild Deer on the rim of a Canyon, with Neighbors nearby with out having to be crammed in Between two Mulit-Million dollar Houses where the owners are competing to Show Off their Money.

If you do not want to live crowded up Close there are many places you can go in Baja. Stop, Look , Listen and go on an Adventure.

Enjoy Baja and its People.

Skeet/Loreto

Real estate tycoon?

jrbaja - 3-11-2005 at 03:30 PM

"Sinko", Another fine example of the u.s. public education system?
Sinko, perhaps evelynn woodhouse may have something to offer you in the comprehension department.:lol:
What I am doing is designed to keep people that need to be with other obnoxious people like themselves out! That's because I believe in individuality rather than boob jobs and makeup!
I may even make it a requirement that your car must break at least once a month so you actually are fitting right in with the locals, and me:lol:
Posting my picture is really wonderful of you although I really don't understand the point. But thanks for reminding me of the shrimp shanghai.:biggrin:
Maybe one day they will come pull you out of your loreto bay and have you help them load shrimp. If you even know where that picture came from.
Nevertheless newbie, I would use all of your Spanish and Baja knowledge to comprehend what is really going on there.
I have the utmost respect for Firemen so that's why I was so easy on you regarding your flaming everyone who dares disagree with you.
You have a lot to learn about Baja and yer not going to learn from developers, I hope your lesson isn't learned the hard way as many people have already done.

JESSE - 3-11-2005 at 03:34 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Dave
Quote:
Originally posted by JESSE
Don?t be surprised if in the near future, you start to see demonstrations against these type of developments, i would love to see the face of those developers if the locals started to greet their customers with signs saying rather mean things.


Questions:

Why would you think the locals would be against these projects?

If so, why wouldn't the locals protest before the projects are approved and permits issued?

A large development like this had to receive approval from the national government. If there were demonstrations and the local police couldn't handle the job, I would suspect the army would show up and haul the demonstrators away.

I am neither for or against these projects. I DO find fault in blaming the developers. It is Mexicans who sell the property, Mexicans who elect and appoint the officials who approve them, Mexicans who issue permits for their construction and Mexico that grants foreigners the right to live here.



Who are the Mexicans? our goverment? a handful of people that own land? big Mexico city billionaries?

This land belongs to the people of Mexico, as well as the beaches, and everything in it, look around, the people selling the properties and making laws to bring foreing investment are just a small bunch, and they care nothing about the welfare of the people.

I wouldnt have a problem with development if it actually benefited the people, and it obviously does not. Our "democracy" is a scam, it does not work, and the very same people that have ripped off this nation in the past, have adapted and are still doing it today, Mexicans have been very patient people for many years, but many are getting sick and tired of corrupt politicians, the selling of our natural resources and assets to foreingners in exchange for nothing.

What many people dont understand is that democracy works great for some nations, but it has failed miserably on others, Mexico is a perfect example of that, where we have a drug lord as the mayor of the 4th largest city of Mexico, and we have for presidential choices one corrupt politician, one incompetent, and one populist.

When are people going to understand that free elections mean nothing if the entire process is broken.

JESSE - 3-11-2005 at 03:37 PM

I also want to add that i dont blame developers for this as much as i do the elite and the politicians of Mexico, developers are taking advantage of a virtually free ride, and the Mexican elite and politicians are filling their pockets with bribes.

If democracy is failing us, we cannot stand and let a few sell our future.

You just described the u.s. gubment jesse

jrbaja - 3-11-2005 at 03:37 PM

Are you sure your not confusing the two?:lol::lol::lol:

JESSE - 3-11-2005 at 03:48 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by jrbaja
Are you sure your not confusing the two?:lol::lol::lol:


Similar crap Jr, but you cant compare the two, its obvious that in the U.S. the primary concern of the goverment is to keep the people happy, and after that, theres time for other nice bribes and political gifts, but here, our politicians are either:

1.-Too stupid

2.-Too corrupt

3.-All of the above

To care about the people, here they only think about one thing, make money in any way possible regardless of how many millions of people it screws.

DanO - 3-11-2005 at 04:31 PM

JR's still right (about the political issue, not boob jobs). In fact, in the terms Jesse just articulated, I see no difference at all between the two systems. The players in the U.S. system have just been more mindful of public perception and thus more diligent in concealing how things really work.

lto bay

tehag - 3-11-2005 at 04:46 PM

Friend of Baja speaks like friend of Loreto Bay. Any afiliation?

correctness

Sharksbaja - 3-11-2005 at 06:28 PM

It is nice to see that some of us see the project for what it REALLY is. You are correct about who will benefit most. The big wheels are playing because of the big stakes. Money does buy votes and many other things(everything). Just because it appears politically correct......it is partly right ......it is just that... political. It seems the politicians are doing just fine, thank you. This capitalism thing works pretty good, eh Mexico. Heck, just build us another utopia and we'll shut up. NOT!!

Crimes against Mexico

Sharksbaja - 3-12-2005 at 02:49 AM

Read these press releases and tell me if you would trust those "Big-wigs" in YOUR country.






Press Releases



July 17, 2003

For Immediate Release

The Trust for Sustainable Development and FONATUR sign agreement

After several weeks of negotiation around fine points, David Butterfield, representing The Trust for Sustainable Development, and John McCarthy Director General of FONATUR, Mexico's National Fund for Tourism Promotion, put their signatures to a comprehensive agreement that paves the way for Butterfield's massive Loreto Bay coastal resort development on the Baja's Sea of Cort?s.

"This is the moment we've been working and waiting for," said Butterfield by phone from Mexico City, where the signing ceremony took place Thursday, July 17.

"This gives our Canadian and U.S. investors the certainty they were seeking, and it means we can begin serious pre-construction planning and marketing." Butterfield anticipates the Loreto Bay Company's construction on the project's first phase, including a beach club resort hotel and about 300 homes, will commence by the end of this year, and that the first vacation home buyers will be enjoying the Baja sunshine sometime in 2005.

Loreto Bay follows on the successes of Shoal Point, Butterfield's harbourfront condominium project in Victoria's James Bay, and Civano, his New Urbanist community of over 2,000 homes near Tucson, Arizona.

Describing Loreto Bay as a "health oriented, resort lifestyle beach community," Butterfield pictures a 10- to 15-year project in nine development phases. The Loreto Bay community -- a small town, actually, when completed -- will include 5,000 homes, golf courses, a Tennis Center, boutique hotels, numerous restaurants, shops and services, and all the amenities called for in a resort setting. The entire project will incorporate the best of Mexican architectural style and will feature attractive, walkable neighborhoods and the primary use of electric carts, rather than cars.

The 8,000-acre property to be acquired in stages from FONATUR includes more than three miles of level beachfront and "some of the most beautiful upland and canyon country I've ever seen," says Butterfield. The property extends from the Sea of Cort?s on the east to the feet of the dramatic Sierra de la Giganta mountain range on the west, about five miles south of Loreto.

Consistent with Butterfield's recent projects, Loreto Bay is planned as a showcase for the principles and values of sustainable development. Plans are in place for environmental, social and community economic programs designed to make Loreto Bay a "great neighbor to Loreto, a model of resort development in Mexico, and a good citizen on the planet," stresses Butterfield.

Promotion to the vast Canadian and American baby boomer market for second and vacation homes and investment properties begins this fall in the southwest and the so-called "raincoast" states, and in western Canada.



For additional information:
Siddall, Inc.
804-788-8011
William Hamby bhamby@siddall.com
Bill Phelps bphelps@siddall.com

GREED AND NOISE IN THE SOUTHEAST
by HOMERO ARIDJIS
from REFORMA, Sunday, December 19, 2004

Widespread indignation has been aroused by the sale by FONATUR (National Fund for the Development of Tourism) to Golf & Resorts of 377 hectares (approx. 9421/2 acres) in the third stage of the tourist zone in Cancun for the ridiculously low price of 71 pesos (approx. $7.00) per square meter, even though it is valued at 1,750 pesos on the Land Register and the commercial value is 8,000 pesos. On April 24, 2002, Golf & Resorts (a Mexican company headed by Adolfo Fastlicht) signed an agreement with FONATUR to acquire the land, two thirds of which consists of mangroves and swamp, provided the necessary environmental permits were obtained, since the lands, according to TextJohn McCarthythe director of FONATUR, John McCarthy, could not be developed on account of their "environmental fragility". McCarthy characterized the sale as "a magnificent operation for FONATUR and for the future". The property abuts the Kukulkan Boulevard and has three kilometers of beachfront. President Fox laid the first stone of the project last October 28, two weeks before the Purchase-Sale contract.

In 1971, the Wetlands Convention was adopted in the Iranian city of Ramsar, the only world treaty dealing with the protection of one particular form of ecosystem. So far 144 countries have signed it, and it came into force in Mexico in November 1986. Our government has entered 51 sites on the Ramsar List, covering an area of 5,101,443 hectares ((approx. 12,753,607 acres). Wetlands -among which are mangroves, swamps and marshes- regulate hydraulic systems, act as sources of bio-diversity and perform basic environmental services. Loss of wetlands leads to serious and even irreparable environmental damage, for which reason the principal purpose of Ramsar is to preserve them and for the member countries to commit to encouraging a rational use of all wetlands (not only those on the List) in their territory. This means providing for "the greater continuous benefit for the present generation, at the same time maintaining their potential to satisfy the needs and aspirations of future generations", and naturally this includes preserving "the natural properties of the ecosystem" (quotes from Ramsar).

As is usually the case, Mexico was quick to sign but complied with half-measures. On May 7 of this year - with no prior public consultation as required by law, and in violation of several regulations - an amendment was published to the Official Mexican Regulation 022, allowing, with discretional compensation, all prohibitions on construction in the country's wetlands to be over-ridden. As we know, Fox fired Victor Lichtinger, his first Secretary for the Environment and Natural Resources (SEMARNAT) because he disrupted business, and appointed in his place Alberto Card##as, for whom the fauna most deserving of his protection are rapacious businessmen. Following the change in regulation, the value of the land skyrocketed, but the bargain price fixed by Nacional Financiera (NAFIN)-at the request of FONATUR- remained. For the 40% of the land that was mangroves, NAFIN allotted no price, on the presumption that it could not be developed and therefore had no value (except for turtles and crocodiles, and other species of flora and fauna, protected by both national and international treaties I might add). In Mexico some 10,000 hectares (approx. 25,000 acres) of mangroves are lost annually. The project also threatens the reef of Punta Nizuc and is in violation of the Environmental Program for the Nichupte Lake System, the Program of Environmental Regulation for the Territory of the Cancun-Tulum Corredor (POET), and even the Mexican Constitution. From Cancun, Araceli Dominguez, of the Mexican environmental organization GEMA, is calling for access to FONATUR'S accounts and for a lawsuit to be filed against the officials who approved the sale.

That the environment is of little concern to John McCarthy we know through his aborted project to place a Nautical Ladder in the Sea of Cortez, but that it matters little to Alberto Card##as is disturbing, since, unless he files as a candidate for something, he has nearly two more years to wipe out the country's ecosystems. If the principal criterion for a development policy in the country's natural areas is to encourage investment FONATUR style, then we can forget about the Monarch Butterfly sanctuaries, the Lacandonian Rainforest, the San Ignacio Lagoon and give a green light to sawmills, plastic factories, hydroelectric dams and industrial saltworks.

What is this beautiful project that will enrich the lives of present and future generations? The pretentious Riviera Cancun (formerly known as Costa Cancun and Nuevo Cancun) is to benefit from two golf courses, 3,777 hotel rooms, condominiums and villas, a clubhouse, a horse club, two sports clubs on the beach and a business district. Aurelio Ahumada (not to be confused with the imprisoned Ahumada), Director of Grupo Eco Red, the consulting firm contracted for the environment studies that slyly allowed SEMARNAT to do away with Regulation 002, has called for the construction of many golf courses that would be strung together to form "biological corridors"!! FONATUR has expressed its desire to "launch Cancun as a golf resort" to improve the "tourist profile", no doubt in referrence to the migratory birds that abound in the golfing sanctuaries.

Meanwhile another crime is to be inflicted upon the Natural World. In February 2004, the Group of One Hundred, the Animal Welfare Institute and GEMA warned about the project of the Maurice Ewing, a ship owned by the National Science Foundation of the United States and in the service of the Lamont-Doherty Earth Observatory, to conduct research in the Gulf of Mexico by carrying out tests with a battery of 20 pneumatic canons, multiple sonar beams, and laser equipment in order to learn about the profile of the sub-floor, for the purpose of studying the Chicxulub Crater on the northern peninsula of Yucatan. The decibel levels will rise to 255. Much less powerful pneumatic canons have wiped out entire fisheries. This boat was held responsible for the deaths of whales in the Sea of Cortez following a study in these waters in September of 2002.

In February we were able to stop this lethal experiment in the Gulf, but now SEMARNAT has given permission for the voyage. The boat is scheduled to sail from Progreso on February 3 and carry out its activities until the 23rd. It is curious that this permit has been expedited, since, less than a year ago SEMARNAT, in response to a request from the Foreign Ministry, released a statement emphasizing that "these activities can be harmful to marine organisms, especially mammals". They reminded us that President Fox had established an area of refuge for whales in Mexican waters. They listed the dangers of the research for the marine fauna in the Gulf of Mexico, such as, "distorting communications between each other, physical and/or behavioral changes, loss of auditory capability and death". The power of these canons is such that the noise reaches 160 decibels at a distance of 9 kilometers. SEMARNAT warned that the methods proposed to mitigate this would not neutralize the negative effects on organisms in the area, emphasizing that "it is almost certain that any organism sensitive to changes in pressure will be adversely impacted by these activities and will probably die." The license issued by the National Marine Fisheries only permits incidental harassment when there exists no possibility of causing serious harm or death to the marine fauna. But that is not the case here. Recently the International Whaling Commission, the European Parliament and several conservation organizations have sounded the alarm over the threats posed to cetaceans by loud noises in the oceans. In the Gulf of Mexico, thousands of whales, dolphins, tortoises, seals, manatees, orcas, fish, octopuses and other species are at risk.

Who grants John McCarthy the authority to dispose of the country's natural resources, from Baja California to Quintana Roo, as though they were his own? Who permits Alberto Card##as to manipulate the environmental laws to suit his convenience? The methods are clear: if a regulation or law is inconvenient, change it. If any official objects, fire him. In Foxlandia, as far as one can see, the old practices of corruption, influence tracking and fraud continue.















SEATTLE, Dec. 22 /PRNewswire-FirstCall/ -- Alaska Airlines today announced it has received U.S. Department of Transportation approval to provide nonstop service from Los Angeles to Loreto, Mexico. Supported by a marketing partnership with The Loreto Bay Company, the primary developer of the area, Alaska's twice-weekly flights will begin February 17, 2005.

and this guy who has no Google:

http://www.loretobay.com/news_releases042904.html


The Villages of Loreto Bay is the last of five areas identified by FONATUR, Mexico?s tourist development agency, as prime tourist development sites in Mexico. The others are the well-known destinations of Cancun, Los Cabos, Ixtapa-Zihuatenejo and Huatulco. The project will begin construction immediately. When completed, the seaside community will include 5,000 homes, hotels, service and retail businesses, and cultural and recreational facilities.

James Grogan said, ?This is a terrific opportunity for people to own seaside homes starting in the $150,000 U.S. price range?. homes they can reach in a couple hours thanks to Loreto International Airport. At the same time it?s an unknown escape for visitors and a great deal for investors.? He added that each home built would create one new job and generate significant economic activity to the area.


You sure hear the word "Trust" a lot...

These messages brought to you by..............your Trusty Corporate Executives.

elizabeth - 3-13-2005 at 10:34 AM

Emiliano Zapata and Lazaro Card##as must be rolling in their graves...
A whole new meaning to giving the land to those who work it!

Loreto Bay

flyfishinPam - 3-14-2005 at 02:09 PM

I've read through all the posts on this thread and through the negativity but one thing is for sure..

I am a business owner in Loreto and thanks to Loreto Bay we now have a direct flight from LAX by Alaska Air Lines.

Loreto would never have gotten this flight if it weren't for Loreto Bay. Since the first flight in late February 2005, my business has flourished as compared to previous years. Reservations are waaay up and most of the people are coming in on Alaska!

I'm not the only one either, all of my peers in business here have been seeing the exact same thing.

Loreto Bay has just started construction but the stimulus to the local economy is a very real thing! So already new jobs have been created in town because of this new development. I have even hired two new employees to keep up with the business.

I'm sorry to those who believe this project will be the demise of Loreto, but the people who live here need work and now work has been created for us. To those who complain, how many of you live in Loreto and rely on its local economy? None that I can tell.

Pam...

Cincodemayo - 3-14-2005 at 02:40 PM

As a local it's great to hear and I'm coming down Thursday to check out everything with a list of what about this stuff. In my opinion, and I know everyone has 10 of their own, the project will bring many positive things for Loreto as you have already pointed out.

About that new flight into Loreto.....

Hook - 3-14-2005 at 02:52 PM

.....if Alaska is only flying in once a week, I guess one would be forced to stay for an entire week (or pay one-way fares on Alaska and Aero). That's rather limiting....what about the packages for 4 and 5 nights with a couple days fishing?

With the added days you'd be forced to stay in Loreto (when flying Alaska), it would seem to add up to a more expensive vacation, fewer choices, at least for the consumer. Maybe that is part of the reason why there is more fishing going on for you?

Also wondering, Pam, if your increased business could be a direct result of less competition in your core business. Isn't El Fuerte and the small operation at Juncalito no longer there?

I think there may be more than the extremely limited flights from LAX on Alaska at work, there.

Just trying to understand the real effects of the Loreto Bay project on the economy. I have no opinion on it's merits or laying blame at the feet of Canadians or rich Mexicans.
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