BajaNomad

Federal Zone Concession

ncampion - 10-24-2018 at 03:44 PM

Does anyone have any first hand experience obtaining a "Concession" for the Federal Zone? We just had a visit from PROFEPA telling us that we needed a concession to beach launch our tin boat from our property (beach front). They also said that a small single pole palapa we build was on the Federal Zone and we needed a permit for that even though it is well within our surveyed property lines. Is this extortion or what? We always try to follow the rules, but seems that the rules are hard to know sometimes. How can the Federal Zone be on our property? They said it is 20m from the high tide line, which we knew and thus built our house and other structures well back of that measurement but they are saying that the high tide line is way up the beach from the water, like 10m or more. Any thoughts?

larryC - 10-24-2018 at 05:04 PM

I had a very similar experience, profepa came out and issued notices to a lot of home owners here in Bahia. I contested my notice. I took my survey, photos and drawings into Ensenada to their office and showed them that I was within my property boundaries. They of course didn't agree but said they would send someone out to check it again. About a month later a guy shows up so I show him the federal zone monuments and my property markers and he agreed that I was not on the federal zone but said I had to go to Ensenada again to get off the list. When I got to Ensenada a month or so later to get off the list they wanted 330 pesos to get off the list. I tried to explain to them that I didn't ask to get on the list but that went no where and my wife was getting impatient so I just paid them and went on my way.
I don't know about your area but up here when they surveyed the federal zone they put monument about every 200 meters and according to my survey the federal zone is a straight line between those monuments even if the shore line is curved so in some places the federal zone is less than 20 meters from the high tide and in some places it is more than 20 meters from the high tide.
That's my story and I'm sticking to it.
Good luck with yours.

JoeJustJoe - 10-24-2018 at 06:10 PM

The Federal Zone, is not fixed forever, because the high tide changes from year to year, and it's expected to get worse because of global warming, although where David K. lives it never changes and stays the same.

And so there are situations in Mexico by the coast where private property suddenly falls within the Federal Zone, and other times, when Federal Zone, land becomes private property.

It all depends on those all important measurements, and who is doing those measurements.

Sadly, I know a Mexican-American, woman, who owned private property right on the beach that was just beyond that 20 meter lengths.

Her evil neighbors, one American, and one Mexican, came up with a scam to get a new measurement, and declare her property and land was within the Federal zone, and therefore, not private property anymore! Nobody bothered to tell the Woman. So the evils neighbors planned on taking over the property by "concession, and evicting the woman!

The long term plan from the evils ones was to wait for a favorable tide, during an El Nino year, and friendly measurement, and then turn the beach property back to private property and then sell it to a big developer, for a large payday.

Good over evil prevailed, and the woman, my friend, received advice from very powerful people, and on appeal in Mexico city, and she ended up defeating the evil ones, and keeping her property, however, the only way she held onto her property was by concession, and so she didn't walk away unscathed, although we still celebrated when she defeated the evils ones.

I believe the cheapest concession is the garden concession, and there are a few different concessions with various fees.



[Edited on 10-25-2018 by JoeJustJoe]

Mean Tides

MrBillM - 10-24-2018 at 07:15 PM

The official (legal) standard in the U.S. is established by NOAA's National Ocean Service.

The National Tidal Datum Epoch is based upon a 19-year average reflecting the 18.6 year variation in Lunar tidal influence.

The current epoch (revised in 2003 from 1960-1978) is 1983-2001.

I have no idea what calculation the Federal government in Mexico uses other than whatever they say it is when they say it.

As far as " ........... when they surveyed the federal zone they put monument about every 200 meters and according to my survey the federal zone is a straight line between those monuments even if the shore line is curved so in some places the federal zone is less than 20 meters from the high tide and in some places it is more than 20 meters from the high tide .......... ", that makes sense since what is being surveyed should be a vertical point.

The Rising Tide Will Wash Us ALL Away ?

MrBillM - 10-24-2018 at 09:01 PM

OK, the seas ARE rising. A couple of millimeters per year. At the present rate, they might be an inch or so higher in a couple of decades.

Yeah, I know. Things are going to get a LOT worse.

Or, so THEY say.

THEY can even create a computer-model that says so.

And, we KNOW that if a computer says so, it's true.

Right ?

mtgoat666 - 10-24-2018 at 09:03 PM

Quote: Originally posted by David K  
Joe, for most, the concept of moving sand/ shoreline and the sea level, being two different physical things, is not hard to understand. The sea is not higher in our lifetime but the beach is constantly moving.


No palm trees, just facts!




[Edited on 10-30-2018 by BajaNomad]

David K - 10-24-2018 at 10:09 PM

Oooooo, 6 inches higher in 60 years! A 5 ft. tide is 60 inches higher, twice a day.

BajaBlanca - 10-25-2018 at 06:16 AM

So, our neighbors also had a visit from Profepa and they haven't even built anything on their property! They were just in the process of installing a fossa or septic for waste, which they discontinued.

I offered to translate with profepa and everyone came over. I had out my notebook and asked who to contact etc. They beat around the bush for hours but I just asked over and over: what do they have to do, where do they have to do it etc.

Did not get a very good answer. In retrospect, everyone has said that they were looking for a payoff. Miss Blanca never heard that message and just waited for instructions LOL

Our friends asked some Mexicans with connections to help out. Calls were made. Absolutely no one could or would give definitive answers.

Who knows how this will pan out. It is at a standstill at this time.

Howard - 10-25-2018 at 07:46 AM

Can you children take your bickering elsewhere? This is a legit question by a concerned homeowner.

caj13 - 10-25-2018 at 08:00 AM

Quote: Originally posted by David K  
Oooooo, 6 inches higher in 60 years! A 5 ft. tide is 60 inches higher, twice a day.


wow - look at you - cherry picking data! looked at the graph - realized it proved you wrong on your previous statement (about no change), so you went ahead and took the point (1957) that caused you the least heartburn. Same tactic you and your "scientific savants used on their "hasn't changed in 18 years rant we see - for you uniformed - the classic cherry [picking data example of all time - its in all of the stats books as the gold standard example.

David - you are completely capable of reading that graph. You are also completely capable of understanding what it says (meaning you know your statements here are incorrect!) . You can and do choose to ignore those data, because it conflicts with your core beliefs and agenda. Thats your choice, but castigating others who do accept the science - Because they accept science and fact - That's a bit rich don't you think? when do you start slamming those idiots who believe the earth is round?

David K - 10-25-2018 at 09:10 AM

caj, I agree that the world is not static, all things change.
Sorry, you missed the past dozen times when I said 'sure the sea level has risen (about the length of a cigarette)' but the amount has not caused a reason for panic or to move cities.
1957 is the year I was born and when my parents moved to Del Mar, on the beach... so yes, that is a good point of reference. The lot the home was on, was just above high tide (see photos of my mom just outside our dining room in another thread this week). That lot has a different home, but the lot is no higher than it was in the 1950s... and neither is the level of the sea, as far as being a concern. The lack of sand is a concern as it is a buffer and part of the enjoyment of having a beach house.
Now, listen to Howard and stop looking for more drama. The thread is about Nick's problem.

JoeJustJoe - 10-25-2018 at 09:33 AM

My advice to Larry C, is that he should have paid the 300 pesos. That doesn't sound like a lot of money to protect your home.

Ordinarily, I don't care about these "concession" issues, because a lot of them are exactly the same in the states, where homeowners, are protecting themselves from others building in front of their property, and obstructing their ocean view, or telling the home owner, he doesn't own the beach and can't keep people out. In the example I mentioned, above about good vs evil, it started out because the evil one, was concerned about his unobstructed view of the ocean, was going to be blocked.

If you own or have property near a Mexican beach, by concession, you should be able to get legal help, because you will need it to navigate to these treacherous waters, and high tide marks, that's not fixed, and a moving target, and can vary greatly because of things like El Nino, Sand erosion, transitable areas, global warming, and shady land surveyors with funny measuring tapes. Since it's not a fixed point, averages are sometimes used, and that's where it gets tricky.

I guess, you could do it yourself by contacting the SEMARNAT and getting a hold of those UTM coordinates which are suppose to be official.......never mind, it gets to confusing, at least it does for me........get legal help.

Bob and Susan - 10-25-2018 at 01:22 PM

here is a reality EVERYONE should know...

all construction in baja requires an environmental report BEFORE you build or dig a septic

the builder can be fined just like the homeowner if they skip this step
the fine is pretty big these days

it doesn't matter the size of the lot...smaller lots just cost less...there is a REAL scale of costs to apply for an environmental report

the federal zone IS NOT 60 meters but what is on the map at Semarnat…
in this case the map is in La Paz

nchampion needs legal advice since Profepa was there...
if he was cited he ONLY has a few days to file a response in La Paz

the federal zone IS NOT always a straight line across the property...
it could zig-zag or curve

a foreigner cannot get a concession...only citizens
or your fido (trust) but it HAS to be written in the fido document

there are 3 basic concessions
a fishing concession...launch and return boats...no control of others...cheapest
ornato (sp) protection...you have control
and general...building and cement...more expensive

concessions are normally granted for 15 years and can be renewed...
you pay bi-monthly


there is MUCH much more...

ncampion - 10-25-2018 at 01:24 PM

I appreciate the helpful comments, especially from Larry who does seem to have first hand experience. I didn't mean to start a "climate change" thread but it seems that many devolve into that somehow. I don't have a problem getting the concession to be able to drive a vehicle across the beach to launch my boat - seems that the issue is the vehicle on the beach thing although Mexican Nationals do it daily just 100m away from my property. The real issue I have is how they measure the "high tide" mark. They did it totally arbitrarily by just saying, "I think it's here" which in my experience of living here for about 9 years, the high tide has never come within 10 m of their mark. I don't think I need "legal" assistance, just someone with better command of Spanish than I to intercede for us to the right people. If they can agree on a reasonable mark for the high tide line, all my things are well within my property and not on the Federal Zone. Looks like another trip to La Paz is in my future.

Bob and Susan - 10-25-2018 at 01:37 PM

I had 3 surveys until Semarnap was satisfied with the concession boundries…


nothing is written in black and white

ncampion - 10-25-2018 at 03:27 PM

Quote: Originally posted by Bob and Susan  
here is a reality EVERYONE should know...

all construction in baja requires an environmental report BEFORE you build or dig a septic

the builder can be fined just like the homeowner if they skip this step
the fine is pretty big these days

it doesn't matter the size of the lot...smaller lots just cost less...there is a REAL scale of costs to apply for an environmental report

the federal zone IS NOT 60 meters but what is on the map at Semarnat…
in this case the map is in La Paz

nchampion needs legal advice since Profepa was there...
if he was cited he ONLY has a few days to file a response in La Paz

the federal zone IS NOT always a straight line across the property...
it could zig-zag or curve

a foreigner cannot get a concession...only citizens
or your fido (trust) but it HAS to be written in the fido document

there are 3 basic concessions
a fishing concession...launch and return boats...no control of others...cheapest
ornato (sp) protection...you have control
and general...building and cement...more expensive

concessions are normally granted for 15 years and can be renewed...
you pay bi-monthly


there is MUCH much more...



Of course we had an EIA before we built, a three inch think binder and many thousands of dollars. It included a detailed survey of the property with clearly defined boundaries. The people from PROFEPA did clearly indicate that the FZ boundary is 20 m from the high tide line, he even had a tape to measure it and marked it off. He did NOT cite us, he was very courteous and said he was inspecting all the properties along our stretch of beach, other neighbors were also contacted. Never any talk of fines, just what we needed to do to be in compliance. They were actually quite nice. We agreed that we would visit their office next week with our Spanish speaking friend to clarify what was needed. He said there was not time line, they were not confrontational at all. BTW there is a minimum lot size that requires an EIA, our neighbor subdivided his large lot into a very small one, on which he put a palapa for his trailer and the large remainder that is untouched. PROFEPA inspected and advised him to do this which he has done, no problem. I forget the exact min. I think it was something like 100sq m. don't quote me on that. We'll see nextr week what happens and I'm sure we'll be getting a concession because launching the boat is a deal breaker.

Bob and Susan - 10-25-2018 at 04:14 PM

remember when you get the concession and pay their fee THEN
you pay the governors office to pay the by-monthly fees

the data is in the governors office computer and
the clerks have to enter it that you paid

the clock starts when you get the concession from SEMARNAT not profepa

Profepa is only a policing agency they don't hand out concessions


all construction needs an environmental Impact report no matter the size of the lot...lots of mis-information is out there

BajaBlanca - 10-25-2018 at 04:36 PM

Yes, you sure are correct bob and susan! Luckily, our friends had not built the septic yet so they can still do the EIR.

I find it all very confusing, myself.

larryC - 10-26-2018 at 05:01 PM

Quote: Originally posted by JoeJustJoe  
My advice to Larry C, is that he should have paid the 300 pesos. That doesn't sound like a lot of money to protect your home.

Ordinarily, I don't care about these "concession" issues, because a lot of them are exactly the same in the states, where homeowners, are protecting themselves from others building in front of their property, and obstructing their ocean view, or telling the home owner, he doesn't own the beach and can't keep people out. In the example I mentioned, above about good vs evil, it started out because the evil one, was concerned about his unobstructed view of the ocean, was going to be blocked.

If you own or have property near a Mexican beach, by concession, you should be able to get legal help, because you will need it to navigate to these treacherous waters, and high tide marks, that's not fixed, and a moving target, and can vary greatly because of things like El Nino, Sand erosion, transitable areas, global warming, and shady land surveyors with funny measuring tapes. Since it's not a fixed point, averages are sometimes used, and that's where it gets tricky.

I guess, you could do it yourself by contacting the SEMARNAT and getting a hold of those UTM coordinates which are suppose to be official.......never mind, it gets to confusing, at least it does for me........get legal help.


Joe
You might want to work on your reading comprehension skills. If you re-read my post you will see that I did pay the 300 pesos. The 300 pesos was to get off of the violators list not for the concession on the federal zone. Federal zone concessions are much more expensive than that. They charge by the square meter and in my case I have 50 meters of beach front times 20 meters deep would mean a lot of pesos annually depending on what level of concession I wanted. I am far enough out of town that there is not much worry of someone wanting to use the property in front of my house. Maybe in the future.

ncampion - 10-27-2018 at 10:46 AM

So we went in to the local (Loreto) PROFEPA office yesterday armed with pictures, tide markers, tide tables, some Mexican regulations and a Mexican attorney's article about the Federal Zone and how it is measured. Turns out that a guy from SEMERNAT La Paz was visiting the office at the same time and we showed him what we had and he seemed very unconcerned with the whole thing, as if the local guy was making something out of nothing. We agreed to meet with him again next week and go over the whole thing. He seemed to indicate that our measurements were correct and the issue of the boat launch ramp could be handled with a letter of permission from him (SEMERNAT). We are still going to pursue the Concession. We'll see how it all plays out.

fishbuck - 10-27-2018 at 11:48 AM

All so very interesting. Many potential (cess) pits to fall in.
If a bunch of beautiful golden sand migrates natraully to my fishcamp or beautiful volcanic rocks miraculously form into King Neptunes throne... is that ok?
Act of God and all...

[Edited on 10-27-2018 by fishbuck]

[Edited on 10-27-2018 by fishbuck]

fishbuck - 10-27-2018 at 12:21 PM

Flowers and palm trees might grow...
And maybe some oysters might escape the farm and geow wild all over the place... just thick...
And fish might show up...
And dolphins...
Maybe a whale family might stay
Then what?

fishbuck - 10-28-2018 at 12:55 AM

Quote: Originally posted by BajaBlanca  
Yes, you sure are correct bob and susan! Luckily, our friends had not built the septic yet so they can still do the EIR.

I find it all very confusing, myself.


I just realized that this grosses me out that someone wants to put a ceptic tank... in the Federal Zone?
Disgusting. There's your EIR!

I have already figured out where to put mine. And it is the far back corner of my lot AWAY from the Federal Zone.
90 feet away.
There are a million reasons. But the ick factor is high.
And the water that comes out of mine is pure and sterile and I will never use that water even on my front yard which abuts the Federal Zone. I'm making a special area on that side of my garage and house for plants. It will be thick with my trees and vines and I won't use that side. Still a good 45 feet from the Federal Zone.
Yuck!

I'm sorry to you Blanca but not sorry at all to say this.