BajaNomad - apparently NOAA & NASA in on the conspiracy!

dang guys go to the trouble of producing 10's of millions of bits of Data, and found a time machine to go back and plant those fake data in published sources in the late 1880 - early 1900's

all of that to claim the earth is warming , and its caused almost entirely by Human activities - ie burning fossil fuels.

https://www.cnn.com/2019/02/06/world/2018-global-temp-hottes...

[Edited on 2-6-2019 by caj13]

make that NOAA......

NOAH and NOAA

MrBillM - 2-6-2019 at 03:58 PM

The former saw Climate Change on a level that the latter isn't likely to see.

And, knew the reason.

Or, so it's said.

TMW - 2-6-2019 at 04:04 PM

I won't disagree with what is said but frankly I can't get too worked up over 2 degrees in 138 years.

"The average global temperature has risen about 2 degrees Fahrenheit, or a little over 1 degree Celsius, since the 1880s."

John Harper - 2-6-2019 at 04:29 PM

Quote: Originally posted by TMW

"The average global temperature has risen about 2 degrees Fahrenheit, or a little over 1 degree Celsius, since the 1880s."

That does not mean the temperature rise in some areas of the globe may be more/less than in others. Land masses v. oceans, poles v. equator. And the impact of those temps may differ in those areas as well.

Same can be said about "average" sea level rise from what I've read. Some areas have seen it already, others maybe not. Places I have not seen, I cannot say. But, they say it exists, just like black holes. If I'm going to believe astrophysicists conclusions, why not geophysicists who study these things.

John

BajaNaranja - 2-6-2019 at 04:30 PM

Data + dire warnings from scientific community = sufficient cause for reasonable people to at least be concerned.

Or, "fake news" / personal anecdotes / cynicism / helplessness.

David K - 2-6-2019 at 04:34 PM

Who does Chicken Little award go to? :lol:

From Wiki:

Henny Penny, more commonly known in the United States as Chicken Little and sometimes as Chicken Licken, is a European folk tale with a moral in the form of a cumulative tale about a chicken who believes the world is coming to an end. The phrase "The sky is falling!" featured prominently in the story, and has passed into the English language as a common idiom indicating a hysterical or mistaken belief that disaster is imminent. Versions of the story go back more than 25 centuries; it continues to be referred to in a variety of media.

Lee - 2-6-2019 at 04:44 PM

I know someone who I thought I knew well enough. One day we were shooting the breeze and he tells me the Kennedy assassination and moon landing were conspiracies.

We talked for a long time and I asked lots of questions.

Still like the guy, don't see him much down here though he's around, and think he's definitely a nut job.

Right up there with DK and his politic nonsense.

bajabuddha - 2-6-2019 at 05:11 PM

Aw, Lee....... he can't be THAT BAD !!

bajagrouper - 2-6-2019 at 05:13 PM

All I know is one day while fishing at Punta Chavato I was standing on a sandstone rock and at eye level in the sandstone cliff face imbedded were many sand dollars and fossil fish bones at least 10 foot above the high tide marks...
P.S. Just sold my beach house.....

bajabuddha - 2-6-2019 at 05:23 PM

... and there are marine fossils in the rocks of Mt. Everest..... here we go again with another pointless debate about GW. Who ya gonna believe... papered and degreed doctorate scientists who have dedicated their entire life to their profession, or a glorified sprinkler specialist who hawks books to supplement?

Peace, out.

blackwolfmt - 2-6-2019 at 05:30 PM

Only way I see too cease this disagreement of global warming is too ask NOAH too ask Katla to have a massive eruption and put good old mother earth into an Ice-age, that will COOL everyone down

images.jpg - 8kB

[Edited on 2-7-2019 by blackwolfmt]

Lee - 2-6-2019 at 06:41 PM

Quote: Originally posted by bajabuddha

Aw, Lee....... he can't be THAT BAD !!

My friend or DK? Believe in aliens myself never met one. Don't think anyone would want to know if I did.

Lots of goofy folks out there. Glad I'm not alone.

mtgoat666 - 2-6-2019 at 06:50 PM

Quote: Originally posted by bajabuddha

... and there are marine fossils in the rocks of Mt. Everest..... here we go again with another pointless debate about GW. Who ya gonna believe... papered and degreed doctorate scientists who have dedicated their entire life to their profession, or a glorified sprinkler specialist who hawks books to supplement?

Peace, out.

DK’s opinion about climate are vociferous, but not informed by study or research, he makes up scientific theories based on pics of palm trees in his family photo albums! And re irrigation he is Not a licensed plumber! Does he even have a C27 license?

drzura - 2-6-2019 at 08:06 PM

I don't know.. it was freezing all over the country last week. But it may warm up some, especially after the top three Democrats in the state of Virginia have been outed as racists and rapists. :lol:

lewmt - 2-6-2019 at 10:35 PM

How many eons have humans studied weather, wind patterns, precipitation, and more importantly the prediction of it?

With all those eons of study what is the current accuracy?(I'll admit its gotten better within 3 days of the forecast)

Weather data(climate science) has been studied through accurate instrumentation for how long?

You want to really claim the "science" is settled?

Here's another way to think about it....

How much research has gone into human nutrient requirements with studies, double blind studies, 1000's of sample criteria. How often do you hear a study which was touted as the new gospel become refuted by subsequent study only years later? Coffee, eggs, wine, etc....etc.....

You really want me to believe the ""science" is settled? Especially when there is so much political advantage at stake in bringing people to the "believers" point of view?

BajaNaranja - 2-6-2019 at 11:02 PM

BajaNaranja - 2-6-2019 at 11:04 PM

BajaNaranja - 2-6-2019 at 11:11 PM

bajabuddha - 2-6-2019 at 11:36 PM

Ain't it amazin' the people who denounce NOAA support NOAH? (hint for the politically impaired, we lived with dinosaurs but they didn't make it to the ark...)

..... Go figger.... :smug:

norte - 2-7-2019 at 07:00 AM

Those same people that think conclusions on climate change is all made up after analysis of weather data are more than willing to jump to the conclusion there is a national emergency along the border and a great wall is needed...With no data at all to support the conclusion. Go figure.

Timinator - 2-7-2019 at 08:22 AM

I forget, where does NOAA and NASA get their funding from again? How many flies do you catch with honey? More.

I have to say though that I didn't read the article. I don't read anything at anytime from CNN ever. Me bad.

[Edited on 2-7-2019 by Timinator]

John Harper - 2-7-2019 at 08:35 AM

I forget, where does NOAA and NASA get their funding from again? How many flies do you catch with honey? More.

I have to say though that I didn't read the article. I don't read anything at anytime from CNN ever. Me bad.

The same cynicism could be applied about the police, military, border patrol, etc. What's your point? Government agencies like funding? No chit, Sherlock.

I can post up a copy of the article from my NY Times or LA Times accounts, as well as my WSJ account if you read any of those publications. Bias against CNN is not a justification for willful ignorance.

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2019/02/06/climate/fourt...

John

[Edited on 2-7-2019 by John Harper]

John Harper - 2-7-2019 at 08:47 AM

Those same people that think conclusions on climate change is all made up after analysis of weather data are more than willing to jump to the conclusion there is a national emergency along the border and a great wall is needed...With no data at all to support the conclusion. Go figure.

"Stupid is as stupid does." - Forrest Gump

John

[Edited on 2-7-2019 by John Harper]

drzura - 2-7-2019 at 08:53 AM

Anyone can google to find and post "numbers and graphs" that they are looking for. Below is a link from the Telegraph stating that the numbers that are being used by politicians and climate scientists are skewed. So, people can post all day and believe they are right. Are they? Maybe. Maybe not. Some, even some at NASA, believe that we may soon be entering a "cooling phase" due to the lessening solar activity. So, enjoy a nice warm cup of hot cocoa and stay warm..... and build that wall.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/earth/environment/globalwar...

https://www.dailystar.co.uk/news/latest-news/742875/weather-...

[Edited on 2-7-2019 by drzura]

John Harper - 2-7-2019 at 08:55 AM

Quote: Originally posted by drzura

build that wall.

Sure, as soon as we get the funds from Mexico!

John

Timinator - 2-7-2019 at 09:02 AM

Yea, numbers and graphs. I watched them manipulated, massaged, deleted and fudged for 10 years to support "the" Global Warming agenda. Sorry buddy, not falling for this ever. Ever. It's about getting more money from Government, which turns around and demands more money from the private sector.

Just a reminder, it's politicians in Government. They are not, nor have they ever been, the best and brightest. They are the bottom of the barrel in almost every case. You give them your money, just keep your hand out of my pocket.

John Harper - 2-7-2019 at 09:04 AM

You give them your money, just keep your hand out of my pocket.

You and drzura need to get on the same page.

John

caj13 - 2-7-2019 at 09:25 AM

Who does Chicken Little award go to? :lol:

wikipedia page on chicken little cited by David here!

.

what does wikipedia say about climate change David, perhaps you can look that up?

By the way the avian reference here is the ostrich with his head in the sand - far more accurate in this case!

[Edited on 2-7-2019 by caj13]

caj13 - 2-7-2019 at 09:30 AM

Yea, numbers and graphs. I watched them manipulated, massaged, deleted and fudged for 10 years to support "the" Global Warming agenda. Sorry buddy, not falling for this ever. Ever. It's about getting more money from Government, which turns around and demands more money from the private sector.

Just a reminder, it's politicians in Government. They are not, nor have they ever been, the best and brightest. They are the bottom of the barrel in almost every case. You give them your money, just keep your hand out of my pocket.

I tend to believe climae scientists over politicians or radio repair men ( who get fired from their jobs for being incompetent, followed by them re-inventing themselves as self declared climate scientists), when it comes to climate change.
something about those 8 years of college, and millions of data points and peer review and all that stuff - just seems like it might be a bit more valid than some radio repairman or politician spouting of their personal biases without any evidence to back up thir pontifications!

[Edited on 2-7-2019 by caj13]

caj13 - 2-7-2019 at 09:35 AM

Quote: Originally posted by TMW

I won't disagree with what is said but frankly I can't get too worked up over 2 degrees in 138 years.

"The average global temperature has risen about 2 degrees Fahrenheit, or a little over 1 degree Celsius, since the 1880s."

interesting. so you believe man made climate change is happening, but it won't cause the "predicted" consequences?

lewmt - 2-7-2019 at 10:15 AM

"So, really the heart of the Green New Deal is about social justice.”

Quoted from A. O. Cortez. The new brain child of the left & the heart of why I totally distrust the politics of "Climate Science".

LancairDriver - 2-7-2019 at 10:55 AM

It has been very amusing following this topic for months now. So far the only arguments presented by the nomad climate expert set has been the usual name calling, dissing others occupations, and any mocking or other tactic learned from their playground bullying days. Expert credentials include citing reading of the NY Times, or WA Po, and citing the opinions of others who must be experts based on their degree. The lack of personal observations and examples has been lacking. I had previously asked for our nomad climate experts opinion as to the example of why DK’s palm tree remains high and dry after all these years in the face of rising sea levels with pictorial documentation to back up the example. So far neither The NY Times or any other source used by the nomad climate experts has explained this. The usual playground responses invariably follow in lieu of an intelligent argument requiring any personal opinion that could possibly expose an obvious lack of firsthand knowledge. And so, my simple original question remains. Why no perceptible rise in sea level in respect to DK’s well documented palm tree example?

Empirical Evidence

MrBillM - 2-7-2019 at 11:00 AM

Without taking a side:

When dealing with worldwide atmospheric phenomena, personal observation versus scientific collection of data is absolutely meaningless.

caj13 - 2-7-2019 at 11:14 AM

I had previously asked for our nomad climate experts opinion as to the example of why DK’s palm tree remains high and dry after all these years in the face of rising sea levels with pictorial documentation to back up the example. So far neither The NY Times or any other source used by the nomad climate experts has explained this. The usual playground responses invariably follow in lieu of an intelligent argument requiring any personal opinion that could possibly expose an obvious lack of firsthand knowledge. And so, my simple original question remains. Why no perceptible rise in sea level in respect to DK’s well documented palm tree example?

I'm Glad you brought that up: so lets take a look at the magic palm tree photos

David, could you please provide us the exact date and time of when each of those comparative photos were taken. I hate to bring it up, but you know v- tides, all that kind of thing, would have an effect on this - no? so in order to have a valid comparison, we need to know those data so we can determine tides.

I'm sure you understand, as you recognize some unscroupulous person would take a photo at high tide, then compare it to a photo at low tide, and say it proved sea level changes!

and while we are at it, anyone have any data from that location on sand deposition, etc?

JoeJustJoe - 2-7-2019 at 11:14 AM

The global warming agenda! How about the agenda of the polluters and their very deep pockets?

Answer this question.

David K - 2-7-2019 at 11:15 AM

Quote: Originally posted by MrBillM

Without taking a side:

When dealing with worldwide atmospheric phenomena, personal observation versus scientific collection of data is absolutely meaningless.

But, scientists are people and they are making observations! If you don't trust your eyes to see the world as it is and not as someone locked up in a government building or getting government money wants you to see it as, then why bother with anything you experience in life?

It is those who make predictions and not observations who often have it wrong and in the case of global warming and sea level rise, ALWAYS have it wrong.

I am not saying the climate is not changing or sea is not rising, I am just saying it is in no way happening in one lifetime. It is a NATURAL event that has happened thousands of times before man ever made fire.

Man is a part of this planet (or at least most of us are, lol) but he cannot change the climate to please himself! Man has a larger brain and can adapt or move due to a changing climate. The animals do! Be more in tune to Nature and stop trying to change it because Nature Bats Last!

John Harper - 2-7-2019 at 11:15 AM

And so, my simple original question remains. Why no perceptible rise in sea level in respect to DK’s well documented palm tree example?

If you even read some of the NY Times articles I've posted, you might have a bit of insight. The effects of a warming planet are not exhibited equally across the globe. A recent article I posted even referred to thermal expansion as one cause, followed by melting polar ice as another.

You can't see a black hole either, but that does not mean they don't exist.

John

John Harper - 2-7-2019 at 11:17 AM

But, scientists are people and they are making observations!

Scientists observe and MEASURE their observations. Not just anecdotal evidence.

John

LancairDriver - 2-7-2019 at 11:40 AM

Now this is a much better example of a thoughtful, intelligent, and respectful arguement. Too bad there arent more examples like this.

bajaric - 2-7-2019 at 11:45 AM

Quote: Originally posted by lewmt

"So, really the heart of the Green New Deal is about social justice.”

Quoted from A. O. Cortez. The new brain child of the left & the heart of why I totally distrust the politics of "Climate Science".

Everyone has an agenda. I have not studied the issue of climate change enough to have a solid opinion, but I will say that a brief Wikipedia search shows that, based on ice cores, the CO2 level in the atmosphere has spiked up several times over the last 400,000 years, reaching a high of about where it is now, always followed by an ice age. I too, have wondered why fossilized sea life can be found far above sea level. It is not because the sea has fallen, it is because the land has been uplifted. Imagine how old the earth must be for a fossilized sea shell to end up on top of a mountain, and all that time the sun pouring out its solar radiation and the sea has always existed. This in the face of asteroid impacts, volcanic eruptions, and the like; who can say with certainty that the burning of fossil fuels can tilt the balance of this equilibrium that has existed for eons.

Beyond the issue of the "scientists" grubbing for research grants funded by people who might have an agenda, there is the issue of the effect the internet has had on popular opinion. The internet has caused ideas that would be considered the ravings of a lunatic to come in to mainstream thinking. 30 years ago I do not recall anyone claiming that the earth was flat, now there is a group of people that embrace that idea; an internet-fueled exercise in idiotic group think, along with the notion that jet contrails are a nefarious plot, etc etc. So, call me a climate change skeptic.

Regarding the federal deficit, an economist who's name escapes me pointed out that when the government spends more than it takes in and prints money (bonds) to make up the difference the best strategy is to hold non-cash hard assets; e.g. apartment buildings, cropland, timber, and such, that will still have value when the dollar is worth nothing. Society has already begun to devolve back into the feudal system of landlords and serfs, with the first holding all the assets, and the second enslaved in a life of grinding poverty, living on the dole. have a nice day!

David K - 2-7-2019 at 11:48 AM

The Playa El Coyote Palm Tree is at the top of the sloping beach. Behind that beach is a large flat area. During extreme lunar tides that flat area can get wet but average high tides don't go higher than the sloping part of the beach. Photos taken at lower tides would simply show more of that sloping beach. The palm tree remains in the same place despite where the edge of the water is during the photo.

My point is that if the sea was any higher than it was in the 1940s (when the photos of the palm began showing up in books) or 50s, 60s, 70s, etc. that palm would not only be in water more often than just the extreme tides. That flat area between the palm and the mountain would be a lagoon or bay.... with only a foot or two increase in sea level.

Some say the science says it is about a cigarette length higher after 100 years... wow. The daily tide changes several feet up and down, so a cigarette increase not only must fall into the +/- margin of error, but it is laughable to get all worked up over. Plus, you can't change it if it was rising as that is a Natural event. I can show you fossil sea shells many hundred feet above sea level and many miles inland from the ocean, so this is not some unnatural event caused by men driving pickup trucks.

Now, do I need to post those photos again (and I have provided the year of the photo or the year the book was published)?

1952 photo by Howard Gulick

1953 photo by Howard Gulick

In 1971:

In the 2000's:

2009

2012

In February, 2017:

==================================================================

Now, here's a photo I took in 1987... Gonzaga Bay... that's my 4WD Subaru down there and I am hiking up the trail on the island in front of Alfonsina's. You can still walk onto the island at low tide. You can still land on Alfonsina's runway (except at the highest tides, as it always has been since about 1959 when that campo was just getting started). That runway would be underwater at every high tide if the sea had risen even a few inches... on and on are examples. Do we talk about the home I lived in when I was born (1957) to age 7? It is on the beach in Del Mar, and the street and homes there are still not anywhere near being underwater.

John Harper - 2-7-2019 at 11:49 AM

Quote: Originally posted by bajaric

the sea has always existed.

Not true. Our planet was a hot, volcanic lump of rock for many millions of years, and oceans could not form until the temperatures were below 212 Fahrenheit.

John

[Edited on 2-7-2019 by John Harper]

JoeJustJoe - 2-7-2019 at 11:54 AM

It has been very amusing following this topic for months now. So far the only arguments presented by the nomad climate expert set has been the usual name calling, dissing others occupations, and any mocking or other tactic learned from their playground bullying days. Expert credentials include citing reading of the NY Times, or WA Po, and citing the opinions of others who must be experts based on their degree. The lack of personal observations and examples has been lacking. I had previously asked for our nomad climate experts opinion as to the example of why DK’s palm tree remains high and dry after all these years in the face of rising sea levels with pictorial documentation to back up the example. So far neither The NY Times or any other source used by the nomad climate experts has explained this. The usual playground responses invariably follow in lieu of an intelligent argument requiring any personal opinion that could possibly expose an obvious lack of firsthand knowledge. And so, my simple original question remains. Why no perceptible rise in sea level in respect to DK’s well documented palm tree example?

Who are the expert(s) with climate science credentials, on Baja Nomad?

I will give 50 to 1 odds, on a bet if they could prove they are real climate scientists, and I would double the odds 100 to 1, if they happen to be climate scientists, who denies global warming, and are not on some oil company's payroll.

Remember, on the internet you can claim anything, and members often claim all kinds of untrue things. One of the favorite tactics members use on group sites to win an argument, is to claim some type of expert status, and they expect you to stand down once they make their claim of expertise status.

Regarding David K. Palm tree, that's called anecdotal evidence, it's not done scientifically, and David K. is biased, leans to the right, and denies global warming out of hand. So while I welcome David K. opinion, that's all it is an opinion and his personal observation looking through his lens.

There is also the fact that global warming is not happening at the same speed around the world, in the arctic, the effects of global warning are happening at a very fast alarming pace.

bajaric - 2-7-2019 at 11:57 AM

Well, yeah, but that is going back to before there was a sea. Interesting trivia tidbit: all rocks started out as basalt.

BajaNaranja - 2-7-2019 at 12:00 PM

John Harper - 2-7-2019 at 12:02 PM

Quote: Originally posted by bajaric

Well, yeah, but that is going back to before there was a sea. Interesting trivia tidbit: all rocks started out as basalt.

I've always marveled at the formation of stromatolites and how they boosted oxygen levels in our atmosphere. Natural "polluters" of the ancient atmosphere. Without them, we would not even be here. But, many other organisms likely died off as O2 levels rose to what they are today. Now, we're the modern equivalent with our massive CO2 emissions.

John

[Edited on 2-7-2019 by John Harper]

David K - 2-7-2019 at 02:31 PM

Quote: Originally posted by BajaNaranja

Exactly! The fact is the sea has not risen and that climate change cannot be stopped by humans... Nature is in charge. :light:

norte - 2-7-2019 at 04:33 PM

Quote: Originally posted by BajaNaranja

Exactly! The fact is the sea has not risen and that climate change cannot be stopped by humans... Nature is in charge. :light:

Almost everyone....even those that can't agree with the cause, agree the seas are rising David. I know you probably won't read this but here are some factual readings. https://www.skepticalscience.com/sea-level-rise.htm

bajabuddha - 2-7-2019 at 05:37 PM

Quote: Originally posted by BajaNaranja

Exactly! The fact is the sea has not risen and that climate change cannot be stopped by humans... Nature is in charge. :light:

Can't recall who's sig. quote sez it, but.....

"Never argue with a fool... people may not be able to tell the difference"... or sumpin' of that sort. It's like the wall thing, basic trumpanzeeism, the true owners of TDS.

Truer words have never been spoken. :smug:

BajaBill74 - 2-7-2019 at 05:38 PM

Here is a panoramic picture I took at Los Arcos in April of 1999. The left side is looking at the Sea of Cortez and the right side through the arch is the Pacific Ocean. Two major bodies of water in the same picture.

The arch now looks like this.

Sorry there arn't any palm trees.

This is intended to be a humorous post. :saint:

David K - 2-7-2019 at 05:48 PM

Yes, I love it...
and there was water under the arch in 1966 too...
I think the beach being there is a seasonal thing since the top of the arch is still the same height from the top of the water, sand or no sand (which moves).
Thank you!
:bounce:

David K - 2-7-2019 at 05:59 PM

You can throw all the links to words in the world, but here is the evidence, the facts, the truth, the science... OBSERVE 64 years of sea level rise:

1952:

2016:

64 years... :wow:

2018 Was 4th Hottest Year on Record, NASA Finds

wessongroup - 2-7-2019 at 06:44 PM

"The key message is that the planet is warming," Gavin Schmidt, the director of NASA's Goddard Institute for Space Studies in New York City, told reporters at a news conference. "And our understanding of why those trends are occurring is also very robust. It's because of the greenhouse gases that we['ve] put into the atmosphere over the last 100 years." [6 Unexpected Effects of Climate Change]"

https://www.livescience.com/64700-2018-heat-record.html

Would imagine heat has influence over the water cycle ... just saying

BajaBill74 - 2-7-2019 at 07:36 PM

Just saying.

Five Pacific islands lost to rising seas as climate change hits

wessongroup - 2-7-2019 at 08:49 PM

Perhaps the lack of sea level rise could be explained to these folks who were negatively impact by the rise of the sea level in their location ... just saying :biggrin:

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2016/may/10/five-pac...

David K - 2-7-2019 at 10:32 PM

BajaBill74, now that IS photographic evidence... well done!

wessongroup: Sea level is not the blame but erosion is... All islands eventually erode back into the sea and after reading the link, they even say it is erosion (but add 'sea level rise' with that). Why they needed to add the other is obviously to fill the emotional need of some. The sea didn't just rise at a few Soloman Islands and not anywhere else!

Corral atolls used to be bigger islands that eroded away.

David K - 2-7-2019 at 10:34 PM

Quote: Originally posted by wessongroup

"The key message is that the planet is warming," Gavin Schmidt, the director of NASA's Goddard Institute for Space Studies in New York City, told reporters at a news conference. "And our understanding of why those trends are occurring is also very robust. It's because of the greenhouse gases that we['ve] put into the atmosphere over the last 100 years." [6 Unexpected Effects of Climate Change]"

https://www.livescience.com/64700-2018-heat-record.html

Would imagine heat has influence over the water cycle ... just saying

Or it is a very normal trend that keeps repeating the older earth gets...

What greenhouse gasses were the Vikings making in 1000 AD??? LOL

Cliffy - 2-8-2019 at 04:52 AM

Just so light bedtime reading

https://moneymaven.io/mishtalk/economics/amidst-global-warmi...

https://wattsupwiththat.com/2019/01/23/the-co2-derangement-s...

JoeJustJoe - 2-8-2019 at 07:02 AM

Quote: Originally posted by wessongroup

Or it is a very normal trend that keeps repeating the older earth gets...

What greenhouse gasses were the Vikings making in 1000 AD??? LOL

The denier medieval warm period argument also does not stand up to scrutiny, although they may have been a slight warm period on some parts of Earth, but in other places there were cooling going on.

Also during that period scientist know there were observable solar activity.

_________

One of the most often cited arguments of those skeptical of global warming is that the Medieval Warm Period (800-1400 AD) was as warm as or warmer than today. Using this as proof to say that we cannot be causing current warming is a faulty notion based upon rhetoric rather than science. So what are the holes in this line of thinking?

Firstly, evidence suggests that the Medieval Warm Period may have been warmer than today in many parts of the globe such as in the North Atlantic. This warming thereby allowed Vikings to travel further north than had been previously possible because of reductions in sea ice and land ice in the Arctic. However, evidence also suggests that some places were very much cooler than today including the tropical pacific. All in all, when the warm places are averaged out with the cool places, it becomes clear that the overall warmth was likely similar to early to mid 20th century warming.

https://www.skepticalscience.com/medieval-warm-period.htm

[Edited on 2-8-2019 by JoeJustJoe]

caj13 - 2-8-2019 at 09:17 AM

Quote: Originally posted by wessongroup

Or it is a very normal trend that keeps repeating the older earth gets...

What greenhouse gasses were the Vikings making in 1000 AD??? LOL

Heyc David, how about you find the same graph with the temperatures on them? that graph is absolutely useless, is that 10 degrees above and below normal? or is it 2 degrees? or 0.1 degree. without that context yoiur graph is useless.

I will say thank you though, that graph is actually pretty famous, and we have a very good understanding of the climactic maxima and minima this is showing. And not only that - we pretty much understand why it happened - Milankovich cycles and some other contributing stuff! Unfortunately, current data cannot be explained by those cycles, it's supposed to be getting cooler in the northern hemisphere for the next 13,000 years, and it's obviously not - and what explains that? other than carbon in the atmosphere? nothing!

so since you are such a fan of wikipedia - here you go! https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holocene_climatic_optimum
Be forwarned - its science stuff, and I know you recognize that all scientists are in on this global conspiracy, in this case those dang scientists actually went to the trouble of fabricating up ice cores supposedly drilled from the Arctic and Antactic - and you and I know they made then in a popcycle mold in a freezer in Encino!e

David K - 2-8-2019 at 10:08 AM

caj13, how about you showing me a place where the sea has risen. I keep providing visual proof, that doesn't need a Ph.D. to see, and all I get back are excuses or the subject is changed. I think until evidence is provided that shows otherwise, I am happy with what my eyes see and I am not going to become Chicken Little and panic over something that cannot be changed by taxing us all into oblivion.

As for which liars to side with? How about the ones that don't want to kill babies, or let America be invaded, or reverse a growing economy, or wear white hoods??? :light:

I wish you all happiness and prosperity!

Taxed into Oblivion ? The GOOD News IS ......................

MrBillM - 2-8-2019 at 10:40 AM

Think Happy Thoughts. I looked out this a.m. and the big tree in my front yard appears to still be the same distance from the ocean. More or less. Obviously all that nonsensical NOAA satellite ranging is bunk.

ALL of those opining here to little (no ?) effect will interpret and frame ANY data in terms of their own preconceived conclusions safe in the knowledge that they are almost certain to be Maggot-Feed sooner than they're taxed into oblivion.

And, whatever anyone here has thought or written (along with them ?) will be unremarked and unremembered.

Slainte Mhath !

Lee - 2-8-2019 at 10:41 AM

These pics looked photo shopped. Don't ya have real proof
DKKK?

You can throw all the links to words in the world, but here is the evidence, the facts, the truth, the science... OBSERVE 64 years of sea level rise:

1952:

2016:

64 years... :wow:

4x4abc - 2-8-2019 at 10:42 AM

it is very difficult to find graphs with numbers
it is very difficult to find graphs that reach from 2,000 years ago to today
once you find some, you notice that some display ocean average temperature - others land mass temperature

in the end I found 2 - but they are of different scale
AD to 2000 displays a range of +5 and -5 degrees Celsius
1880 to 2017 displays a range of +0.6 and -0.4 degrees Celsius

so it has gotten warmer than average today by about 0.6 degrees C - about as warm as it was 1,000 years ago
whether this is good or bad - I don't know
I am not an expert
and i haven't decided yet which experts to believe
seems most have an agenda
some have noble agendas (saving us from doom)
however, any agenda makes people lie (first and foremost the experts)
so I am cautius whom to believe
churches have shown us that believing can be bad for your health
so I stay out of it

anyway, below the numbers

AD to 2,000 first

1880 to today next:

stitching them together for the bigger picture:

whether the warming trend is normal or threatening is impossible for us normal people to say
whether or not we humans have caused the latest rise is impossible for us normal people to say
whether or not we can reduce that rise is impossible for us normal people to say

so we have to leave it to our über-parents - the governments
and despite some good work, they have shown a tendency to tornillo us (no graph)

I am going for an early Margarita to reduce my temperature

Lee - 2-8-2019 at 10:54 AM

As for which liars to side with? How about the ones that don't want to kill babies, or let America be invaded, or reverse a growing economy, or wear white hoods??? :light:

I wish you all happiness and prosperity!

Religious (moral) and extreme right wing political rants are inappropriate here DK.

This stuff is really upsetting for some folks.

Try to focus more on Baja. If you're still worked up, take a break?

Sea Level Rise and factors contributing to same

wessongroup - 2-8-2019 at 01:58 PM

GMSL rose at a rate of 3.0 ± 0.7 millimetres per year between 1993 and 2010  “Estimating and accounting for twentieth-century global mean sea-level (GMSL) rise is critical to characterizing current and future human-induced sea-level change. Several previous analyses of tide gauge records1,2,3,4,5,6—employing different methods to accommodate the spatial sparsity and temporal incompleteness of the data and to constrain the geometry of long-term sea-level change—have concluded that GMSL rose over the twentieth century at a mean rate of 1.6 to 1.9 millimetres per year. Efforts to account for this rate by summing estimates of individual contributions from glacier and ice-sheet mass loss, ocean thermal expansion, and changes in land water storage fall significantly short in the period before 19907. The failure to close the budget of GMSL during this period has led to suggestions that several contributions may have been systematically underestimated8. However, the extent to which the limitations of tide gauge analyses have affected estimates of the GMSL rate of change is unclear. Here we revisit estimates of twentieth-century GMSL rise using probabilistic techniques9,10 and find a rate of GMSL rise from 1901 to 1990 of 1.2 ± 0.2 millimetres per year (90% confidence interval). Based on individual contributions tabulated in the Fifth Assessment Report7 of the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change, this estimate closes the twentieth-century sea-level budget. Our analysis, which combines tide gauge records with physics-based and model-derived geometries of the various contributing signals, also indicates that GMSL rose at a rate of 3.0 ± 0.7 millimetres per year between 1993 and 2010, consistent with prior estimates from tide gauge records4. The increase in rate relative to the 1901–90 trend is accordingly larger than previously thought; this revision may affect some projections11 of future sea-level rise.

https://www.nature.com/articles/nature14093

  there are active footnotes contained in the “quoted abstract”   

Stratospheric ozone over the United States in summer linked to observations of convection and temperature via chlorine and bromine catalysis  

"We present observations defining (i) the frequency and depth of convective penetration of water into the stratosphere over the United States in summer using the Next-Generation Radar system; (ii) the altitude-dependent distribution of inorganic chlorine established in the same coordinate system as the radar observations; (iii) the high resolution temperature structure in the stratosphere over the United States in summer that resolves spatial and structural variability, including the impact of gravity waves; and (iv) the resulting amplification in the catalytic loss rates of ozone for the dominant halogen, hydrogen, and nitrogen catalytic cycles. The weather radar observations of ∼2,000 storms, on average, each summer that reach the altitude of rapidly increasing available inorganic chlorine, coupled with observed temperatures, portend a risk of initiating rapid heterogeneous catalytic conversion of inorganic chlorine to free radical form on ubiquitous sulfate−water aerosols; this, in turn, engages the element of risk associated with ozone loss in the stratosphere over the central United States in summer based upon the same reaction network that reduces stratospheric ozone over the Arctic. The summertime development of the upper-level anticyclonic flow over the United States, driven by the North American Monsoon, provides a means of retaining convectively injected water, thereby extending the time for catalytic ozone loss over the Great Plains. Trusted decadal forecasts of UV dosage over the United States in summer require understanding the response of this dynamical and photochemical system to increased forcing of the climate by increasing levels of CO2 and CH4."

https://www.pnas.org/content/114/25/E4905

Took this guy around around a year to “review” the report for accuracy, prior to publishing “Edited by John H. Seinfeld, California Institute of Technology, Pasadena, CA, and approved May 9, 2017 (received for review November 28, 2016)”

Have fun with the reports … question on the report’s “content and accuracy welcomed

Whats an inch of sea level rise look like … by the tree  

[Edited on 2-8-2019 by wessongroup]

The Shifting Sands in Time

MrBillM - 2-8-2019 at 02:55 PM

The sandy shorelines often come and go (in varying degrees) with the tides.

And come back again.

Proving nothing much regarding the extent of sea-level rise over the (relatively-short) time frame.

It's fun to watch the two entrenched sides argue, though.

With one side dominated by a strident refrain of (imminent ?) catastrophe while the opposition "don't worry-be happy" bunch has a somewhat conflicted mixture of "nothing's happening", "what's happening is a normal cycle" and/or "it's so slight that we need not worry" along with some "OH NO, we'll be taxed out of our Toys".

Personally, I'm fed up with these sub-40 degree days and nights in the 20s. I'd just like to see some Climate Change that will keep Winter warm for whatever functional time that I've got left. After that ................ Oh Well. Not my problem.

JoeJustJoe - 2-8-2019 at 04:43 PM

One thing you'll rarely see from the global warming denier crowd, is they rarely if ever provide any links backing up scientific research, that denies global warming, but the few times they do provide links, it's pretty much lightweight material from blogs, like the ones Cliffy linked. ( well at least he trying)

In one Cliff blog below, it's ran by registered financial adviser, and the other blog is owned by a so-called, Seal Holder, meteorologists, which I believe is something like a TV weather girl.

The few times denier crowd actually comes up with real scientific evidence, a little digging usually shows it's a hired gun, non-climate scientist in a releated field that has links to Exxon, or other polluting corporation, that has a vested interest in denying global warning, in order to make obscene profits, and keep their legal liability down.

Quote: Originally posted by Cliffy

Just so light bedtime reading

https://moneymaven.io/mishtalk/economics/amidst-global-warmi...

https://wattsupwiththat.com/2019/01/23/the-co2-derangement-s...

4x4abc - 2-8-2019 at 08:19 PM

interesting: "global warming denier" = non believer = infidel

this is as wrong as "greenhouse gases"
our atmosphere has a lot of different gases
and they are just that - gases

however, some of the early guys in the man made global warming saga started to use "greenhouse gases" to make it easy for everyone to connect CO2 to the sensation one has in a green house. Uncomfortably warm and humid.
Scientists should not use those old church tricks.

Wondering Whether the Wacky Weather will cause us to Wither ?

MrBillM - 2-9-2019 at 11:14 AM

Whatever ?

IF SO, Conclusive (or, at least, unarguably affirmative) evidence which would convince politically partisan skeptics is likely a long ways out. Hopefully, not beyond a point of no return, but as Doris said "Que Sera Sera".

The history of mankind has (nearly) always been one of defending parochial short-term interests while minimizing the likelihood of future harm.

The Climate Change debate isn't likely to move any on either side given the inexorable link between their political thinking and the question.

AND, as their (the skeptics) last rhetorical redoubt, whatever occurs can be attributed to historical (relatively) short-term natural climate variances.

"You don't know what you've got till it's Gone."

Joni said that.

"F - IT ! There is NO Hope."

I said that.

With apologies to Oscar Hammerstein:

"Let's all play until Judgement day. Burn that Oil and that Coal, Get a little drunk, stay out of Jail. All that Weather just keeps on rolling along ............."

caj13 - 11-3-2019 at 02:01 PM

when you look at Davids photos, in comparison - those palms in the current photo do not look as healthy as the ones in the photos form the 50's. looks like salt water intrusion into the root zone!
and anyone notice the other 3 trees on that same beach line - well I mean you can't see em in Davids photos, but they are obvious and healthy in the historical photos - what happened to them? where did they go? and what happened to the palm on the right side in the 1950's photo?

[Edited on 11-3-2019 by caj13]

[Edited on 11-3-2019 by caj13]

David K - 11-3-2019 at 06:09 PM

They got old ... like your denials here that the sea is not higher than it was in 1949, 70 years ago!

caj13 - 11-3-2019 at 07:25 PM

They got old ... like your denials here that the sea is not higher than it was in 1949, 70 years ago!

Uh - heres some real data David - instead of making false statements - how about you show me your "science" since you are a self proclaimed man of science, I would expect that you have data from multiple sources that support your contention - so how about it, where are the data you are relying on?

Sea level has been rising over the past century, and the rate has increased in recent decades. In 2018, global mean sea level was 3.2 inches (81 millimeters) above the 1993 average—the highest annual average in the satellite record (1993-present). It was the seventh consecutive year, and the 23nd out of the last 25 years in which global mean sea level increased relative to the previous year.

From the 1970s up through the last decade, melting and thermal expansion were contributing roughly equally to the observed sea level rise. But the melting of glaciers and ice sheets has accelerated, and over the past decade, the amount of sea level rise due to melting—with a small addition from groundwater transfer and other water storage shifts—has been nearly twice the amount of sea level rise due to thermal expansion.

Glacier mass loss accelerated from 226 gigatons/year between 1971 and 2009 to 275 gigatons/year between 1993 and 2009. Ice loss from the Greenland Ice Sheet increased six-fold, from 34 gigatons/year between 1992-2001 to 215 gigatons/year between 2002 and 2011. Antarctic ice loss more than quadrupled, from 30 gigatons/year between 1992 and 2001 to 147 gigatons/year from 2002 to 2011.

heres the citation for those Data David - because people who love science recognize the requirement to cite information used to support your contentions! right?
https://www.climate.gov/news-features/understanding-climate/...

OOPs, new paper out in Nature 5 days ago David, using real science, turns out we have been understimating the risks because the elevation models are biased toward higher elevations - its all explained here in the paper - as a man of science, I'm sure you will find it interesting and educational! science is kind of like that!
https://www.nature.com/articles/s41467-019-12808-z

Science is a real thing David, it's not a word you throw around to try and impress your friends! Its hard work following vigorous protocols and is reviewed by the worlds best before it is published. Its not half baked declarations by uneducated people trying to find a way to keep believing their biases.

Your disrespect for science and scientists is noted, and I will hold you accountable for that.

BajaRat - 11-3-2019 at 07:26 PM

Round and round we go
Undeniably our home is being destroyed by humanities reckless
" We can't hurt big bad Mother Nature " attitude.
While we argue greed and lack of support for new ideas and technological advances sends many species to an early grave never to be seen again.
If we continue to support the idea that we're not hurting anything with our current human behavior and activities the planet is likely to get a do over without our presence.
We don't have to agree on everything,
But let's stop sh#tting in our kitchen
Lionel :cool:

David K - 11-3-2019 at 10:45 PM

Yet, everything above the sea way back then, still is today. 3"? You are worked up over 3-4" when the sea rises 10 feet, daily... over and over?
Yes, Lionel is right... Live clean and don't hurt others.

paranewbi - 11-4-2019 at 05:49 AM

Quote: Originally posted by 4x4abc

it is very difficult to find graphs with numbers
it is very difficult to find graphs that reach from 2,000 years ago to today
once you find some, you notice that some display ocean average temperature - others land mass temperature

in the end I found 2 - but they are of different scale
AD to 2000 displays a range of +5 and -5 degrees Celsius
1880 to 2017 displays a range of +0.6 and -0.4 degrees Celsius

so it has gotten warmer than average today by about 0.6 degrees C - about as warm as it was 1,000 years ago
whether this is good or bad - I don't know
I am not an expert
and i haven't decided yet which experts to believe
seems most have an agenda
some have noble agendas (saving us from doom)
however, any agenda makes people lie (first and foremost the experts)
so I am cautius whom to believe
churches have shown us that believing can be bad for your health
so I stay out of it

anyway, below the numbers

AD to 2,000 first

1880 to today next:

stitching them together for the bigger picture:

I think it is quite obvious that the warming trend has withdrawn the level of moisture from the recorded hand as illustrated in the hand of 4x4abc. The fall and rise of the margarita adds nothing to the argument that the level of tidal movement is reflected in the topical surface of the gripping mass.
Until we can locate a photo of such illustrated hand from some decades past with any evidence of liquid level within the margarita...we are left to graphs and peer-reviewed publications that dictate our contrived opinions.

ncampion - 11-4-2019 at 10:22 AM

Just wondering how accurately man could measure sea level and temperature 2000 years ago. Or even 200 years ago.

4x4abc - 11-4-2019 at 10:45 AM

when the wise man points at the moon, the idiot looks at the finger

wise man points at moon.jpeg - 40kB

David K - 11-4-2019 at 12:36 PM

I have no problem with Carl or Harald saying the sea is four inches higher than 100 years ago. They also should have no problem with me pointing out that is not abnormal and is not bringing the sea above the tidal range which is several feet in most places.

The difference is they have a need to add insults and act like photos don't prove anything when they clearly do... as long as the rise is enough to actually matter to anyone... which it isn't at 4". Maybe in 200 years when it is a whole foot higher than in 1919, it may affect somebody, but I kind of doubt it. The technology in 200 years will likely allow them to move a foot more higher... maybe even hover over it?

Bajaboy - 11-4-2019 at 01:08 PM

I have no problem with Carl or Harald saying the sea is four inches higher than 100 years ago. They also should have no problem with me pointing out that is not abnormal and is not bringing the sea above the tidal range which is several feet in most places.

The difference is they have a need to add insults and act like photos don't prove anything when they clearly do... as long as the rise is enough to actually matter to anyone... which it isn't at 4". Maybe in 200 years when it is a whole foot higher than in 1919, it may affect somebody, but I kind of doubt it. The technology in 200 years will likely allow them to move a foot more higher... maybe even hover over it?

David, you are welcome to your opinion. But your opinion is not the same thing as scientific opinion.

David K - 11-4-2019 at 01:22 PM

Are you saying that Carl and Harald's figure of 4" is a wrong opinion or that my saying 4" is not greater than the tidal range is a wrong opinion?

Bajaboy - 11-4-2019 at 01:27 PM

Are you saying that Carl and Harald's figure of 4" is a wrong opinion or that my saying 4" is not greater than the tidal range is a wrong opinion?

Your opinion is not scientific. This is a scientific opinion https://www.npr.org/2019/09/25/764390120/sea-level-rise-ocea...

Please don't confuse the two. Just because you think the Earth is flat....

David K - 11-4-2019 at 01:36 PM

At what point will the sea be high enough to actually be visible, unquestionable, and cause seaside facilities to be unusable?

Since it is rising, how is man mightier than God or Nature to reverse this event of Nature?

Isn't it just a natural thing to move if a place you live in is not dry anymore? That makes more sense than pretending you can reverse the course of Nature.

The sea level has always changed... there are sharks teeth in the desert, near Asunción, after all. These are facts, not opinions.

AguaDulce - 11-4-2019 at 02:10 PM

Megladon teeth in Bakersfield

caj13 - 11-4-2019 at 03:48 PM

Are you saying that Carl and Harald's figure of 4" is a wrong opinion or that my saying 4" is not greater than the tidal range is a wrong opinion?

No he's saying you continue to ignore the scientific data presented to you. you keep living in the past because you have no idea that the issue is feedback loops and rates of change. Once you show some sort of indication that you actually have educated yourself on these issues,
and the science behind them , then it could be a discussion, but how do you discuss facts with someone who chooses to ignore facts, figures - you know science stuff.

I'm not looking to change Davids's mind - I'm looking to Pique the interest of someone who truly wonders about climate change - and the science behind it. someone willing to actually read and understand the summary literature.

being hostile to science because it is in conflict with your political ideology - right because ignorance and misstatements will make the problem go away!

caj13 - 11-4-2019 at 03:56 PM

At what point will the sea be high enough to actually be visible, unquestionable, and cause seaside facilities to be unusable?

Since it is rising, how is man mightier than God or Nature to reverse this event of Nature?

Isn't it just a natural thing to move if a place you live in is not dry anymore? That makes more sense than pretending you can reverse the course of Nature.

The sea level has always changed... there are sharks teeth in the desert, near Asunción, after all. These are facts, not opinions.

Once again willfull ignorance. you have been presented multiple times with evidence from multiple places on the globe where global climate change is affecting people. because you choose to ignore it, doesn't make it untrue David - it makes you look willfully ignorant!

and we do know how to reverse the effect of MAN on the Environment - and it's not easy, but we can do it
- now as for your God Squad spewing - read your bible David - the original one - the one written in Hebrew! I suspect you have forgotten the actual translation, and are relying on the King David (ironic eh) version. God said he gave "stewardship" of the earth to man David. He NEVER said you have dominion! that was a mistranslation that came hundreds of years after the facts. so how are you going to answer God when he asks you what you did in stewardship of the earth, and you start spewing "I spread false information to discredit those communist liberals"

Good luck with that David, perhaps less time spewing verbal vomitus here, and more time studying your bible will make this clear to you!

[Edited on 11-5-2019 by caj13]

Mr. Bills - 11-4-2019 at 04:06 PM

I have elected to avoid discussions regarding climate change.

Its not that I deny man's contribution to the situation, whatever that contribution may be, its that I'm old and don't care.

Paco Facullo - 11-4-2019 at 04:38 PM

I think that you are both right ..... :bounce:

pacificobob - 11-4-2019 at 05:08 PM

not everybody has had the opportunity to receive higher education. i likely would not have had one if not for VA benefits. i would like to think if i had not, i would at least have had the sense to not put my l ignorance on display on a public forum. science....it matters.

John Harper - 11-4-2019 at 05:18 PM

Some of the smartest and wisest people I've met in my life never had a college education. Some of the best educated people I know are willfully ignorant.

Never stop learning.

John

[Edited on 11-5-2019 by John Harper]

David K - 11-4-2019 at 06:44 PM

Deflect and spin, come on caj, I never said anything against science. Science is the study of things. If those things haven't happened, like global warming... rebranded as climate change (for affect) since the world is not warming overall... they are called predictions, not scientific fact.

None of the climate alarmists predictions have come true the past 20 years. That gives thinking people a reason to doubt the panic-stricken doomsayer's words.

I am not going to just join in the groupthink to be popular with your followers. Especially when I go to the same beach all my life and can see the ocean is not higher in any amount that changes anything. I prefer to be the one to have some wisdom as in the story of the Emperor has No Clothes.

4 inches... or 40, it is what it is, the Earth changes naturally. If you want to pretend you are more powerful than the sun and volcanoes, go ahead if that makes you feel special and important. I will adjust if necessary but never demand my neighbors change their lives or pay more taxes to make me feel righteous.

paranewbi - 11-5-2019 at 06:14 AM