BajaNomad

electric water heaters

marv sherrill - 5-5-2019 at 05:48 PM

Does anyone have experience with electric water heaters over propane ones? Since electricity is so cheap in Baja now, I wonder if this is a good switch to make. Thanks in advance for the input

advrider - 5-5-2019 at 06:22 PM

If you have propane a better option would be an on demand, much cheaper to run and they last if you get a good one.

RnR - 5-5-2019 at 08:14 PM

Quote: Originally posted by marv sherrill  
Since electricity is so cheap in Baja now, I wonder if this is a good switch to make.


CFE has a three tier electricity pricing schedule in Baja Sur.
(I do not know if Baja Norte is similar)

The first tier at 0.799 peso/kWh is very cheap.

The second tier at 0.964 pesos/kWh is still economical.

The third tier at 2.824 peso/kWh is very expensive at almost four times the unit cost of the first tier.

Check to see where your current usage falls in this pricing structure. If adding an electric water heater will move you up a tier (or two) into the third tier, stick with propane. Propane will be much cheaper than paying third tier electric rates.

Bajazly - 5-5-2019 at 08:42 PM

2.824 pesos/kwh is still very cheap from my standpoint but .799 is way better. Question is, where is the cutoff for the 3 tiers? How many kws puts you in the second and third tier? Is it true if you hit the third tier for some said consecutive months you get put in third tier jail and no matter how much you use , you have to pay third tier rates for some said amount of time?

I ask in ref to Baja Norte but I imagine it would be about the same up here.

RnR - 5-5-2019 at 09:15 PM

Quote: Originally posted by Bajazly  
Question is, where is the cutoff for the 3 tiers? How many kws puts you in the second and third tier? Is it true if you hit the third tier for some said consecutive months you get put in third tier jail and no matter how much you use , you have to pay third tier rates for some said amount of time?


My last electric bill from CFE shows the three tiers as follows, (for a two month billing cycle):

First tier - the first 150 kWh.

Second tier - the next 250 kWH.

Third tier - everything over these first combined 400 kWh.
(These are the winter tier cutoff points)

Now it gets complicated -

The tier amounts vary by the season and by which region of Mexico that you are in.

In Baja Sur, the tier threshold kWh amounts about double for the six month summer period. You can find your local tier thresholds and seasons on CFE's website but it is a bit difficult to decipher.

Now for your second question - Third tier 'jail'. (That's a new one!)

The third tier is the actual cost of electricity. The first two tier rates are subsidized by CFE (or the govt) and that is why the rates are lower.

If you go into the third tier for twelve consective months. you lose the subsidy for the first two tiers and pay the full actual cost of the electricity (third tier rate) for ALL kWhs used. You will remain at this unsubsidized rate until you use less kWH than the third tier threshold for TWELVE consective months.

That is why it is so dificult to regain the subsidy once you lose it.


[Edited on 5-6-2019 by RnR]

willardguy - 5-5-2019 at 09:48 PM

Quote: Originally posted by marv sherrill  
Does anyone have experience with electric water heaters over propane ones? Since electricity is so cheap in Baja now, I wonder if this is a good switch to make. Thanks in advance for the input


good question. propane is expensive and you never really know just how much you're being ripped off for.....I suppose alot depends on usage, i've considered electric also it'll be interesting what you come up with:light:

mtgoat666 - 5-5-2019 at 10:23 PM

Quote: Originally posted by RnR  
Quote: Originally posted by Bajazly  
Question is, where is the cutoff for the 3 tiers? How many kws puts you in the second and third tier? Is it true if you hit the third tier for some said consecutive months you get put in third tier jail and no matter how much you use , you have to pay third tier rates for some said amount of time?



The third tier is the actual cost of electricity. The first two tier rates are subsidized by CFE (or the govt) and that is why the rates are lower.



Seems like the govt should wise up and not subsidize electric rates for gringos. Subsidy recipients should be means tested, and subsidies should only be for people who have income in Mexico.

Hook - 5-6-2019 at 12:50 AM

Quote: Originally posted by advrider  
If you have propane a better option would be an on demand, much cheaper to run and they last if you get a good one.


The most important thing about an on-demand water heater is that you have water pressure that is fairly consistent and strong enough to meet the minimum requirements of the manufacturer. Otherwise, it can be a frustrating experience, especially in the shower.

pacificobob - 5-6-2019 at 07:22 AM

Quote: Originally posted by Hook  
Quote: Originally posted by advrider  
If you have propane a better option would be an on demand, much cheaper to run and they last if you get a good one.


The most important thing about an on-demand water heater is that you have water pressure that is fairly consistent and strong enough to meet the minimum requirements of the manufacturer. Otherwise, it can be a frustrating experience, especially in the shower.

quite right. the line pressure is what controls the heater. insufficient pressure or fluxuations can raise hell in the shower. $800 ones will last 20 years, the $80 mexican-bosh less time.

shari - 5-6-2019 at 07:32 AM

We use the very common Rheum electric water heaters and they are fantastic, last a long time, very reliable and inexpensive to run. We have smaller ones so they heat up in about 15 minutes and only turn it on when we want to shower. You can get 110 or 220 volt ones.

Take into consideration that it is best to buy local so you can get parts...like the heating element which has to be replaced every year or two...easy to do. We put our small water heaters right in the shower up in a corner instead of outside where everything rusts here.

Bajazly - 5-6-2019 at 08:07 AM

Quote: Originally posted by RnR  
Quote: Originally posted by Bajazly  
Question is, where is the cutoff for the 3 tiers? How many kws puts you in the second and third tier? Is it true if you hit the third tier for some said consecutive months you get put in third tier jail and no matter how much you use , you have to pay third tier rates for some said amount of time?


My last electric bill from CFE shows the three tiers as follows, (for a two month billing cycle):

First tier - the first 150 kWh.

Second tier - the next 250 kWH.

Third tier - everything over these first combined 400 kWh.
(These are the winter tier cutoff points)

Now it gets complicated -

The tier amounts vary by the season and by which region of Mexico that you are in.

In Baja Sur, the tier threshold kWh amounts about double for the six month summer period. You can find your local tier thresholds and seasons on CFE's website but it is a bit difficult to decipher.

Now for your second question - Third tier 'jail'. (That's a new one!)

The third tier is the actual cost of electricity. The first two tier rates are subsidized by CFE (or the govt) and that is why the rates are lower.

If you go into the third tier for twelve consective months. you lose the subsidy for the first two tiers and pay the full actual cost of the electricity (third tier rate) for ALL kWhs used. You will remain at this unsubsidized rate until you use less kWH than the third tier threshold for TWELVE consective months.

That is why it is so dificult to regain the subsidy once you lose it.


[Edited on 5-6-2019 by RnR]


So by this example, you would need to stay under 200kwh per month, 400 per billing cycle if it's every two months to not break into the third tier, or is that doubled because it is billed every two months?

Was this example for the winter rates down there or have the summer rates hit for this billing cycle?

Fernweh - 5-6-2019 at 08:08 AM

Regardless would you would choose, why not install a small solar system ahead or your gas/electric water heater.
We do have some sun here in BCS I was told, and you might need the gas or electricity only on cloudy days.
The standard water heaters are very easily adapted to a solar heater. If you like to get more detailed info, just contact me
PS not selling anything.....

RnR - 5-6-2019 at 09:01 AM

Quote: Originally posted by Bajazly  
Quote: Originally posted by RnR  
Quote: Originally posted by Bajazly  
Question is, where is the cutoff for the 3 tiers? How many kws puts you in the second and third tier? Is it true if you hit the third tier for some said consecutive months you get put in third tier jail and no matter how much you use , you have to pay third tier rates for some said amount of time?


My last electric bill from CFE shows the three tiers as follows, (for a two month billing cycle):

First tier - the first 150 kWh.

Second tier - the next 250 kWH.

Third tier - everything over these first combined 400 kWh.
(These are the winter tier cutoff points)

Now it gets complicated -

The tier amounts vary by the season and by which region of Mexico that you are in.

In Baja Sur, the tier threshold kWh amounts about double for the six month summer period. You can find your local tier thresholds and seasons on CFE's website but it is a bit difficult to decipher.

Now for your second question - Third tier 'jail'. (That's a new one!)

The third tier is the actual cost of electricity. The first two tier rates are subsidized by CFE (or the govt) and that is why the rates are lower.

If you go into the third tier for twelve consective months. you lose the subsidy for the first two tiers and pay the full actual cost of the electricity (third tier rate) for ALL kWhs used. You will remain at this unsubsidized rate until you use less kWH than the third tier threshold for TWELVE consective months.

That is why it is so dificult to regain the subsidy once you lose it.


[Edited on 5-6-2019 by RnR]


So by this example, you would need to stay under 200kwh per month, 400 per billing cycle if it's every two months to not break into the third tier, or is that doubled because it is billed every two months?

Was this example for the winter rates down there or have the summer rates hit for this billing cycle?


This example was from the winter rate schedule for BCS for a two month billing cycle. One month amounts are half of the listed numbers (75/125 kWh/month)

The link that "Lencho" posted above goes directly to CFE's rate schedule web page. But, it takes some effort to decipher and understand the schedules.

CFE rate schedules

I just checked the summer schedule on the web page. There are now FOUR tiers -

Basic (1st tier) - first 300 kWh/mo, 0.599 peso/kWh
Low intermediate (2nd tier) - the next 450 kWh, 0.750 peso/kWh

High intermediate - the next 150 kWh/mo, 0.980 peso/kWh

Full rate - everything over 900 kWh/mo, 2.890 peso/kWh


Two month billing cycle would double these kWh quantities.

Bajazly - 5-6-2019 at 09:31 AM

Thanks RnR, I have heard the top tier is ungodly expensive and I guess if you look at the bottom tier it is but less than I pay here in the states. I don't have a good handle on what my hobby shop will use but it seems easy enough to stay out of top tier jail by not being around for a while a few months a year.

How does solar work there? Do they do net metering and credit you for any generation you do?

That link you put up won't go anywhere for me right now but I'll try it later or when I head down in a few weeks and look at the San Felipe area.

RnR - 5-6-2019 at 12:55 PM

Quote: Originally posted by Bajazly  
…. it seems easy enough to stay out of top tier jail by not being around for a while a few months a year.

How does solar work there? Do they do net metering and credit you for any generation you do?

That link you put up won't go anywhere for me right now but I'll try it late.....


That is exactly how you stay out of the 'top tier jail' - Just be gone for one billing cycle. To get out of the 'top tier jail' once you get into it, you now have to be gone (or use minimal electricity) for a year!

CFE does have a net metering program. A neighbor generates enough electricity during his six month summer absence to completely cover his electrical bills for his six months of winter occupancy. His kWh cost for a year is ZERO. But, I do not know what his amortization cost/timeframe is to recover his solar power installation cost.

The CFE link just worked for me but two other tries an hour ago did not work.

Just a note - the CFE link I posted goes directly to Tariff Schedule 1E. Lencho's link from an above post goes to the previous level web page and allows you to choose your applicable Tariff Schedule. Look on your CFE bill for your Tariff Schedule. (Usually 1D or 1E)

pacsur - 5-6-2019 at 01:32 PM

I am not stating this as fact, but a Mexican accountant explained it this way to me years ago, the lowest tier is basically enough power to run some lights, fans, and small appliances for anybody at a very low rate, the second tier will go up some and is for people living a little better life, they have a tv, maybe a computer, possibly even 1 air conditioner, the top tier is for owners that have water pumps, multiple air conditioners, and basically just modern conveniences, the government figures if you have enough money to buy all the modern conveniences you must have the money to pay more for electricity. I also think your rate is based on the cfe billing cycle, so each cycle stats out fresh at the lowest rate until you go above it for that 1 cycle.

Bajazly - 5-6-2019 at 02:06 PM

So if you are not in top tier jail, even if you do go over in a given month, the first two or three tiers are the lower rate. To say, if you go over lets say the 900kwh in RnR's summer breakdown, only the power over 900kwh is the 2.89 pesos but up to that it is the .599 then .75 then .98 peso per hour?

With all my machine tools, a welder or two and a 40ish HP waterjet, I'm afraid I might be going over from time to time. The good news is I have 2 separate services I can draw from keeping the house and the shop on different accounts.

Udo - 5-7-2019 at 11:08 AM

Very important information!

I have had to buy a solar system, because my CFE bills were really getting out of hand because of the third tier system. $5000+ Pesos for two months!

In Baja Norte we get to the second tier after 125 KVH per month. Currently, I have a second meter for just my garage. It has a full-sized new refrigerator and a new full-sized freezer. Plus I plug in my TESLA X. That has been costing me about $400 pesos per two month period. The house costs me nothing. I have a CFE surplus there.
Quote: Originally posted by RnR  
Quote: Originally posted by marv sherrill  
Since electricity is so cheap in Baja now, I wonder if this is a good switch to make.


CFE has a three tier electricity pricing schedule in Baja Sur.
(I do not know if Baja Norte is similar)

The first tier at 0.799 peso/kWh is very cheap.

The second tier at 0.964 pesos/kWh is still economical.

The third tier at 2.824 peso/kWh is very expensive at almost four times the unit cost of the first tier.

Check to see where your current usage falls in this pricing structure. If adding an electric water heater will move you up a tier (or two) into the third tier, stick with propane. Propane will be much cheaper than paying third tier electric rates.

willardguy - 5-7-2019 at 11:28 AM

Quote: Originally posted by shari  
We use the very common Rheum electric water heaters and they are fantastic, last a long time, very reliable and inexpensive to run. We have smaller ones so they heat up in about 15 minutes and only turn it on when we want to shower. You can get 110 or 220 volt ones.

Take into consideration that it is best to buy local so you can get parts...like the heating element which has to be replaced every year or two...easy to do. We put our small water heaters right in the shower up in a corner instead of outside where everything rusts here.


I really like this idea! :light:

Rheem v. Conventional

MrBillM - 5-7-2019 at 03:13 PM

Years back, having used a Rheem "On Demand" propane heater for my shower, I replaced it after a year or so with a conventional (Hecho en Mexico) 20-gallon propane water heater purchased in San Felipe which was still working 10-years later. The supply 5-gallon propane tank would last around 30 days. Granting that a Rheem or electric heater might be more energy-efficient .................. how much could you really save ? Propane is still pretty cheap in Baja, isn't it ?

fishbuck - 5-7-2019 at 04:38 PM

Quote: Originally posted by Fernweh  
Regardless would you would choose, why not install a small solar system ahead or your gas/electric water heater.
We do have some sun here in BCS I was told, and you might need the gas or electricity only on cloudy days.
The standard water heaters are very easily adapted to a solar heater. If you like to get more detailed info, just contact me
PS not selling anything.....


Regarding the propane expense issue.
I have been advised to try and use electric everything.
We are off-grid. And now with solar systems evolved, they can power almost anything if set up for it.
Go off grid and you will not be a slave to the utility companies...
And yes the solar systems are a bit pricey.
But I guess over time you make money on it when it's amortized.
That will never happen on-grid.
The battery storage systems are very efficient and small.
I guess we can thank Elon for that.

pacificobob - 5-7-2019 at 04:50 PM

in my opinion, propane on demand is the way to go....however, unless you have stable, predictable, water pressure, it will be a PIA. i couldn't make it work here with much consistency with my existing water system. now i use a tank/gas unit.

KurtG - 5-8-2019 at 09:25 AM

Quote: Originally posted by willardguy  
Quote: Originally posted by shari  
We use the very common Rheum electric water heaters and they are fantastic, last a long time, very reliable and inexpensive to run. We have smaller ones so they heat up in about 15 minutes and only turn it on when we want to shower. You can get 110 or 220 volt ones.

Take into consideration that it is best to buy local so you can get parts...like the heating element which has to be replaced every year or two...easy to do. We put our small water heaters right in the shower up in a corner instead of outside where everything rusts here.


I really like this idea! :light:

I can confirm that these heaters that Juan and Shari have work great. They warm up very quickly, 10 or 15 minutes, and provide plenty of hot water for a good shower.

fishbuck - 5-8-2019 at 09:59 AM

Great feedback on this issue.
Does anyone know what water pressure is the minimum for an on demand (aka "tankless") water heater requirement.
I will measure my local pressure and find out what I have.
Ours is a gravity system. But good pressure. Some air in the lines.

[Edited on 5-8-2019 by fishbuck]

Paco Facullo - 5-8-2019 at 10:20 AM

Gravity feed water pressure is not going to be enough without adding a booster pump.
Also in regards to going solar, you should ONLY do it IF you have somebody always around your house otherwise your solar system including batteries are ripe for thief's...

fishbuck - 5-8-2019 at 10:36 AM

I was wondering if I could boost pressure someway.
The solar here is in a vault. Prime target for the segunda market.
We have armed guards here. And biteydogs:coolup:

fishbuck - 5-8-2019 at 01:15 PM

Excellent.
I loves me a good math formula
Mucho Gracias Sr. lencho...

[Edited on 5-8-2019 by fishbuck]

Getting a Boost

MrBillM - 5-8-2019 at 05:51 PM

The Rheem that I used worked adequately when I added a Shurflo 12VDC RV pump.

The gravity feed from the (approx. 400-gallon) roof-mounted tank was insufficient to trigger operation.

[Edited on 5-9-2019 by MrBillM]