BajaNomad

FMM & INSURANCE

BajaParrothead - 5-23-2019 at 08:12 PM

I don't have a trip report yet, but in preparation for my trip to the East Cape later this week, I purchased my insurance policy for my pickup. After reading through the 18 pages of the policy, I found this:


#8 under the exclusions. :O

David K - 5-23-2019 at 09:38 PM

What is the concern? Call the agency where you bought it and get some confirmation that Baja California travel does not require importation (TIP) permits, only the mainland.

mtgoat666 - 5-23-2019 at 09:50 PM

No visa (e.g. FMM), no coverage.
End of argument.

KasloKid - 5-23-2019 at 10:18 PM

"The insured is illegally in the country"

So here's where the debate begins. Not being in possession of a current and valid FMM while in Mexico constitute the definition of being an illegal?

I've always maintained that insurance companies are in the business of making money. If this statement under the exclusion list provides wiggle room for an insurance company to deny coverage, then I'm surprised that they haven't utilized it yet (at least, haven't heard about anyone being denied coverage)

I guess I'd better continue paying for an FMM, just to be safe.

BajaParrothead - 5-24-2019 at 06:07 AM

Quote: Originally posted by KasloKid  
"The insured is illegally in the country"

So here's where the debate begins. Not being in possession of a current and valid FMM while in Mexico constitute the definition of being an illegal?

I've always maintained that insurance companies are in the business of making money. If this statement under the exclusion list provides wiggle room for an insurance company to deny coverage, then I'm surprised that they haven't utilized it yet (at least, haven't heard about anyone being denied coverage)

I guess I'd better continue paying for an FMM, just to be safe.

It's amazing how much wiggle room they give themselves:
Off road driving
Drunk driving
No FMM
Etc

mtgoat666 - 5-24-2019 at 06:32 AM

Quote: Originally posted by BajaParrothead  
Quote: Originally posted by KasloKid  
"The insured is illegally in the country"

So here's where the debate begins. Not being in possession of a current and valid FMM while in Mexico constitute the definition of being an illegal?

I've always maintained that insurance companies are in the business of making money. If this statement under the exclusion list provides wiggle room for an insurance company to deny coverage, then I'm surprised that they haven't utilized it yet (at least, haven't heard about anyone being denied coverage)

I guess I'd better continue paying for an FMM, just to be safe.

It's amazing how much wiggle room they give themselves:
Off road driving
Drunk driving
No FMM
Etc


Would be silly to insure off-road or drunk driving....

sancho - 5-24-2019 at 07:44 AM

Haven't ever read nor heard of a Mex Ins use that out, but
the fact that is is listed in most/all policies, you are giving
them that opportunity. One can get $500,000 or more
liability on a policy, if you give them an opportunity to
deny a claim of that $$$, seems irresponsible. Because
that exclusion has not been used in the past, doesn't
mean squat

KasloKid - 5-24-2019 at 09:54 AM

I went through my most recent insurance policy from Ace Seguros (Baja Bound) and on the last page I found this...
"SECTION 6.0 - EXCLUSIONS" means what is says.... it is your DUTY to ensure all the exclusion provisions listed do not apply to you. To me, this is crystal clear, no interpretation needed. Check out line #8:

"SECTION 5.0 - DUTIES OF THE INSURED/OCCUPANTS
1. The Insured or Occupants must call and report any need for
assistance as soon as possible by using the toll free number
on the declarations page of the policy.
2. The Insured must cooperate with the Company, he/she must
provide all necessary information, and fill out any necessary
documents in order to provide the necessary service.
3. The Insured must not make any arrangements or incur any
expenses without consulting the Company first and
obtaining approval.
4. The Insured must take reasonable measures to prevent
further damage or diminish its effects for any act that
requires the services provided in this contract.
5. All claims must be reported to the Company immediately
and before leaving the Mexican Republic.
6. At the Insurer's discretion, the automobile Occupants must
have proof that they have accompanied the Insured in the
insured vehicle during the trip.
SECTION 6.0 - EXCLUSIONS
This policy does not provide assistance coverages for the following:
1. If the Insured cannot show proof of coverage or cannot show
a valid ID.
2. If the Insured or Occupants cause intentional damage to
their property.
3. Damages caused by psychological or psychiatric illness,
alcohol, or the influence of drugs, other than those
medically prescribed by a doctor.
4. Medical coverages shall be excluded if the Insured is
traveling against medical recommendation.
5. If the Insured does not follow his/her obligations as stated in
Section 5.0.
6. Incurred expenses by the Insured without the Company's
consent or approval it is an emergency situation.
7. If the Insured provides false testimony.
8. The Insured is illegally in the country or if the insured
vehicle is not appropriately certified to circulate in Mexico or
does not have the appropriate importation permit.
9. Damages caused by service delay due to force majeure or
reasons beyond the Company's control such as weather,
public authorities, etc.
10. Traveling against the recommendation of a doctor especially
regarding pregnant women.
11. When the vehicle directly participates in races or
competitions or safety, resistance or speed tests.
12. Damages caused from traveling on non-conventional or nonmunicipal
roads.
13. If Insured runs away at an accident scene.
14. If the Insured is involved in any criminal or illegal activity or
if he/she is a fugitive of the law.
15. Damages that result from inadequate maintenance or
modifications to the automobile.
16. Losses derived from strikes, riots, insurrection, war,
terrorism, civil war, popular uprising, nuclear activity, etc.
ACE SEGUROS, S.A.
Edificio Arcos Oriente,
Bosques de Alisos No. 47 1er Piso,
Bosques de las Lomas,
C.P. 05120, Mexico, D.F.
The contract documentation and technical note that constitute this
product are registered at the National Commission of Insurances
and Bonds (Comision Nacional de Seguros y Fianzas), according to
the information in articles 36, 36-A, 36-B y 36-D of the General Law
of Insurance and Mutual Companies (Ley General de Instituciones y
Sociedades Mutualistas de Seguros), under record number
CNSF-S0039-0234-2010 dated on 16/04/2010.

[Edited on 5-24-2019 by KasloKid]

JoeJustJoe - 5-24-2019 at 10:00 AM

It's laughable a few insurance companies would list driving drunk under their exclusion page, and it's doubtful it would hold up in court.

Driving drunk, and getting into an accident, is considered "accidental" and therefore, would usually be covered. Setting your car on fire, is "deliberate" and therefore, the insurance company could deny the claim. DO NOT GET A CAR INSURANCE POLICY THAT TRIES TO EXCLUDE DRIVING DRUNK.

Driving without a FMM, and being considered an illegal American alien, is YOUR interpretation of Mexican immigration laws. ( talking to Sancho, The Goat, KasloKid, and a few more)

You also have to consider the fact that when you get auto insurance, you'
re usually insuring the "car" not the person, although you can cover both. So the car insurance company will usually pay the claim.

Car insurance companies are in the business of low balling claims, not denying claims outright, which would only insure that the other side hire an attorney to fight the claim to fight their denial of the claim.

There is still not one case that anybody which includes Geoff, at "Baja Bound insurance" have heard of any Mexican car insurance company, denying a claim, because lack of proper documentation( the FMM)

I have not heard of one person in Baja, ever get shaken down for not having a FMM, although at highway check points far into Baja, the Mexican military may ask to see your FMM, but that's part of their jurisdiction. Mexican street cops, do not enforce Mexican immigration laws.
_______________________________

Why your insurance company has to pay for your illegal acts

No matter what type of insurance you buy, your policy will exclude coverage for intentional and fraudulent acts. For example, if you set your car on fire, don’t expect your car insurance company to pay for it. However, there are cases where insurers will have to pay for damage resulting from your illegal acts – as long as your crime was “accidental.” Here are examples.

1. Your DUI mess
Driving under the influence of alcohol or drugs is illegal, obviously. However, if you drive drunk and cause a car accident, your car insurance policy will pay for damages you cause -- up to the liability limits of your policy. This means your insurance would pay for damages to the light pole you damage or cover the medical bills of someone you injure.

“If you torch your home, you’re intentionally committing a crime. With a DUI, you understand that it’s against the law to drive under the influence, but you don’t expect to get into an accident,” explains Peter Moraga, spokesperson for the Insurance Information Network of California.

https://www.insure.com/car-insurance/insurance-company-pays-...

KasloKid - 5-24-2019 at 10:34 AM

Joe, this has absolutely nothing to do with my interpretation of being in Mexico legally or not. I simply copy and pasted a provision from my insurance policy, and added a comment as to what line #8 means.

And, by the way, I have mentioned in the past that I have been asked to produce my FMM by the Federal Police, among other documents at a road checkpoint, just south of Guaymas. And no, I wasn't speeding or had given any cause to be pulled over. I had just cleared a toll booth and 100 feet later, pulled over for a documentation check. I was on my motorcycle, riding 2-up with my wife. The last time I mentioned this FACT, you challenged it and I chose to ignore it.
Joe, you're intent on proving that getting an FMM is a waste of time and not necessary to go out of your way to get one.

Can you explain why Mexican Immigration has a process in place to get one?















#8



Marc - 5-24-2019 at 12:30 PM

12. Damages caused from traveling on non-conventional or nonmunicipal roads.

What is a "non conventional" road? Say south of BOLA to Mex1 which is all dirt.

I was stopped on the Sonora / Chihuahua border a few years back. I was parked & minding my own business. He wanted to check the TIP, FMM's, Mexican insurance, registration and my US auto ins. I think they could have been looking for someone. Yecora was a few miles down the road.

KasloKid - 5-24-2019 at 01:56 PM

Quote: Originally posted by Marc  
12. Damages caused from traveling on non-conventional or nonmunicipal roads.

What is a "non conventional" road? Say south of BOLA to Mex1 which is all dirt.

I was stopped on the Sonora / Chihuahua border a few years back. I was parked & minding my own business. He wanted to check the TIP, FMM's, Mexican insurance, registration and my US auto ins. I think they could have been looking for someone. Yecora was a few miles down the road.


I would imagine it's up to the interpretation of an official, which is kind of like the interpretation of whether one needs an FMM or not.

When I'm on my dirt bike and riding back country Baja, I have a mindset that I am not covered by any type of insurance (but I do carry a valid FMM = big grin!!)

Joe seems to have all the answers, maybe he'll school us in the interpretation of a non-conventional road.

sancho - 5-24-2019 at 02:06 PM

I buy from Bajabound, I believe they would help one
to their fullest extent in the event of an occurrence. But they
are not, nor are any of the US Mex Ins Brokers, have ever been
the ultimate referees in deceiding a claim.
One would have to be a total fool to leave things to
chance driving in Mex. What seems to be the issue
with following regs, laws of the host Country one is
visiting?

John Harper - 5-24-2019 at 02:15 PM

Quote: Originally posted by Marc  
What is a "non conventional" road? Say south of BOLA to Mex1 which is all dirt.


I'd say that's likely up to interpretation, and subject to contention. Since most roads in Baja are dirt, wouldn't that make them the "conventional" road surface for the policy coverage? When does a dirt road classify as "off road?" Maintained dirt roads in the US are common, as in Baja.


The road to Mike's from 3 could be seen as used for commerce (hotel/bar). Roads from inland ejidos as well, bringing farm goods to market. Other roads that go/lead nowhere or 4WD only are obviously not for commerce, but still, dirt roads used for recreation. I expect it would be evaluated on a case by case basis if it came to that.

Maybe someone with annual insurance should ask a few questions of their insurance companies and provide us some better information than a bunch of us old wolves barking at the moon?.

John

BajaParrothead - 5-24-2019 at 04:44 PM

Quote: Originally posted by mtgoat666  
Quote: Originally posted by BajaParrothead  
Quote: Originally posted by KasloKid  
"The insured is illegally in the country"

So here's where the debate begins. Not being in possession of a current and valid FMM while in Mexico constitute the definition of being an illegal?

I've always maintained that insurance companies are in the business of making money. If this statement under the exclusion list provides wiggle room for an insurance company to deny coverage, then I'm surprised that they haven't utilized it yet (at least, haven't heard about anyone being denied coverage)

I guess I'd better continue paying for an FMM, just to be safe.

It's amazing how much wiggle room they give themselves:
Off road driving
Drunk driving
No FMM
Etc


Would be silly to insure off-road or drunk driving....

US policies cover a drunk when he/she causes an accident, even off road. I'm not condoning the DUI thing, in fact I spent 27 years locking them up.

Marc - 5-25-2019 at 10:30 AM

On the ridge between Batopilas & Urique smack in the middle of Copper Canyon. Dirt with signage. Conventional?

JoeJustJoe - 5-25-2019 at 11:15 AM

I also said regularly traveled from point A to point B. ( some others mention if it's on the map it's also conventional )

Here is Baja Bound definition:

Important: Coverage is only valid on conventional roads, some dirt roads are considered conventional roads if they are normally transited and have signage. There is no coverage on roads that are impassable, while off road, beach riding, trail riding or racing.

BTW I'm not an expert, especially about dirt roads in Baja.

I just don't live in fear when in Mexico, nor do I listen to Baja myths repeated over and over again, like the belief auto polices won't pay your claim if you get into an auto accident in Baja if you lack a FMM.

If I'm going to Mexico by airplane or traveling far into Mexico by car I will get the FMM. If I'm going to Tijuana or Rosarito, for a day trip over overnight trip I won't because I consider it a waste of time, and I'm not alone because most travelers to Baja, also don't stop and get a FMM.

I don't think anybody actually turns their FMM when leaving Baja by auto, although we do have a couple of members here that claim they do.

[Edited on 5-25-2019 by JoeJustJoe]

One Thing is CERTAIN !

MrBillM - 5-25-2019 at 11:23 AM

Anyone who is concerned that their Mexican Insurance policy would exclude coverage for Drunk Driving has a problem and presents a potential danger to others.

BajaParrothead - 5-25-2019 at 03:38 PM

Quote: Originally posted by MrBillM  
Anyone who is concerned that their Mexican Insurance policy would exclude coverage for Drunk Driving has a problem and presents a potential danger to others.

:light: Well said Bill

Paco Facullo - 5-25-2019 at 05:10 PM

Well, being that I haven't drawn a sober breath for well over 40 years
My ONLY concern is "where is my next beer" ????:o

This is me trying to buy beer years ago....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z2XeVs4wqdE&feature=yout...

[Edited on 5-26-2019 by Paco Facullo]

KasloKid - 5-26-2019 at 08:42 PM

Stumbled across this:
Source: https://www.discoverbaja.com/fmm-faqs/

Do I have to get a FMM tourist permit when I go to Baja?

Yes. Mexican law requires that tourists from the U.S. and Canada have an FMM tourist permit for any trip into Baja. You may encounter INM checkpoints along the peninsula where they will ask to see your passport and FMM. If you get into an accident in Mexico and you don’t have an FMM tourist permit, you are not considered to be in accordance with Mexican law, and therefore your Mexican auto insurance can be rendered invalid. Each individual must have their own FMM, including children ages two and up.

JoeJustJoe - 5-27-2019 at 02:07 PM

KasloKid, I also stumbled on on the " Baja Travel Club, a few months back, but I discounted them as alarmists scammers, who push Mexican tourists to buy a Mexican auto insurance policy, where they claim they use two highly rated Mexican auto insurance companies.

Yeah, they claim only them could get you a great deal of a pre-paid FMM, which appears to have a mark up, and you still have to get the FMM stamped.

From their site: Discover Baja members can get their prepaid FMMs through Discover Baja for $37. "

They also want you to pay them a membership fee of $39 dollars per person to get their super saver auto insurance policy and local discounts.

Just because you read something on the internet doesn't mean it's always true, there are a lot of dated, and wrong information on "Baja Travel club.

For example, there was never an official "free zone" entering Baja, but Mexican officials sure treated it as a "free zone" and they may still be doing it today..

From the site: "As of September 2015, there is no longer a “free zone” and every person entering Baja, regardless of destination or duration of trip needs to obtain an FMM. If you are only going to be in Mexico for seven days or less, you can get a free FMM, but you still need to stop at the border to fill out the paperwork to obtain the permit."

Pure alarmists, that claim even if stopped by the police for any vehicle-related problem, that you can be arrested, you vehicle impounded, and be heavily penalized, and they claim in Mexico, you are guilty until proven innocent.

So according to them any time a Mexican cop pulls you over, you can go to jail! During the last few years, Mexico has been changing that guilty until proven innocent policy, to be more in line of what they say in the US, "innocent until proven guilty. "

from the site" I"f you have an accident or are stopped by the police for a vehicle-related problem and you do not have Mexican auto insurance for your car or vehicle, you can be arrested, have your vehicle impounded and be heavily penalized for violating the law. This is in addition to being liable for any damages you may have caused in an accident. Mexican law considers all traffic accidents to be both civil and criminal offenses, unlike the U.S. where they are considered only civil offenses. In Mexico, you are guilty until proven innocent – you don’t want to spend your Baja vacation behind bars because you didn’t get Mexican auto insurance."