BajaNomad

Sea turtles slaughter in San Juanico

ocshredder - 6-17-2019 at 11:50 AM

Made our annual summer trek to Scorpion Bay with the kids. Been here two days and have seen 7 dead sea turtles , too many skate rays, sea horses, small fish ( halibut, corvina, s paper types). They are setting nets from the bay to points far and near. My little daughter was nearly in tears seeing all the turtles. Overfishing to the maximum, went down to the beach and watched them unload the boats. In short, there’ll be no more sea life here in the next 2 years. Sad.

mtgoat666 - 6-17-2019 at 12:03 PM

Always look on the bright side of life!

If they get rid of the sea life, risk of shark attack goes down!
Exposing kids to the horrors of fishing and meat production will make them turn vegan, so live a healthier life!

ocshredder - 6-17-2019 at 03:03 PM

Well. That’s a reality. I forgot to mention listening to the pup seal stuck in a net screaming for help all night...... that was brutal. We saw him in on the beach this AM too. Dead.

It's Tragic !

MrBillM - 6-17-2019 at 03:20 PM

It's unfortunate that the species will ultimately be driven to extinction. One could wish for better renewable resource management, but that's not even remotely likely.

They DO taste good.

Beagle - 6-17-2019 at 03:43 PM

Quote: Originally posted by ocshredder  
Well. That’s a reality. I forgot to mention listening to the pup seal stuck in a net screaming for help all night...... that was brutal. We saw him in on the beach this AM too. Dead.


Which beach? What point are you seeing all of these at?

Where exactly did you see the dead sea horses, skates and turtles?

Also, where did you see the dead seal pup?

Thank you

solosancarlos - 6-17-2019 at 03:44 PM

Quote: Originally posted by ocshredder  
Made our annual summer trek to Scorpion Bay with the kids. Been here two days and have seen 7 dead sea turtles , too many skate rays, sea horses, small fish ( halibut, corvina, s paper types). They are setting nets from the bay to points far and near. My little daughter was nearly in tears seeing all the turtles. Overfishing to the maximum, went down to the beach and watched them unload the boats. In short, there’ll be no more sea life here in the next 2 years. Sad.



something just sounds a bit contrived with this story. It's sad if it's true but I just don't believe it. Was there 3 weeks ago and saw nothing of this




[Edited on 6-17-2019 by solosancarlos]

[Edited on 6-17-2019 by solosancarlos]

[Edited on 6-17-2019 by solosancarlos]

LancairDriver - 6-17-2019 at 04:33 PM

But hey! They need to feed their families. At least that is the normal reason given for the rape of the oceans.


EC82D0EC-3241-493C-A997-4D7FA57A2742.jpeg - 164kB

wilderone - 6-17-2019 at 05:11 PM

"unfortunate" ? - it's tragic - and the blood in on human hands. Shameful and preventable. I would have been in tears as well. Should have taken photos and blasted on internet to shame them - report to PROFEPA. They're not feeding their families with dead turtles, etc.

del mar - 6-17-2019 at 05:39 PM

Quote: Originally posted by solosancarlos  
Quote: Originally posted by ocshredder  
Made our annual summer trek to Scorpion Bay with the kids. Been here two days and have seen 7 dead sea turtles , too many skate rays, sea horses, small fish ( halibut, corvina, s paper types). They are setting nets from the bay to points far and near. My little daughter was nearly in tears seeing all the turtles. Overfishing to the maximum, went down to the beach and watched them unload the boats. In short, there’ll be no more sea life here in the next 2 years. Sad.



something just sounds a bit contrived with this story. It's sad if it's true but I just don't believe it. Was there 3 weeks ago and saw nothing of this




[Edited on 6-17-2019 by solosancarlos]

[Edited on 6-17-2019 by solosancarlos]

[Edited on 6-17-2019 by solosancarlos]


good call on the edit, first draft was pretty harsh! :lol:

solosancarlos - 6-17-2019 at 06:28 PM

haha, yes it was

shari - 6-17-2019 at 06:44 PM

when net fishing begins is when we see more dead sea lions, birds etc on the beaches here in Asuncion too. But if you were there 3 weeks before the nets were set you may not have seen dead stuff yet on the beach...so might be true

SFandH - 6-17-2019 at 06:51 PM

Is using nets legal? I mean the kind set by the panga fisherman. I saw them used in Bahia Concepcion this past winter.

[Edited on 6-18-2019 by SFandH]

MMc - 6-17-2019 at 06:58 PM

I am sure ocshredder just posted this to to insight all of you. NOT! Maybe he is a guy that cares about a place he surfs and maybe likes a lot. I have saved a couple of birds from a net there years ago and was accused of stealing fish. It was a 4 inch gill net. Killed most everything large and small.
I post less and less here cause of the crap that flies here. It's getting hard to find, peace, love and tacos. HAVE A NICE DAY!
Quote: Originally posted by ocshredder  
Made our annual summer trek to Scorpion Bay with the kids. Been here two days and have seen 7 dead sea turtles , too many skate rays, sea horses, small fish ( halibut, corvina, s paper types). They are setting nets from the bay to points far and near. My little daughter was nearly in tears seeing all the turtles. Overfishing to the maximum, went down to the beach and watched them unload the boats. In short, there’ll be no more sea life here in the next 2 years. Sad.


[Edited on 6-18-2019 by MMc]

fishbuck - 6-17-2019 at 07:01 PM

Sounds like Bycatch from net fishing ops. They toss the dead bycatch back in the ocean...

[Edited on 6-18-2019 by fishbuck]

motoged - 6-17-2019 at 07:09 PM

Quote: Originally posted by MMc  
I am sure ocshredder just posted this to to insight all of you. NOT!
[Edited on 6-18-2019 by MMc]


Insight perhaps...."incite" may be the word you wanted. :light:

ocshredder - 6-17-2019 at 08:41 PM

To answer all the doubting people I’ll try my best
Saw 2 dead turtles up past the last point on the beach, one dead turtle at 4th point, 4 dead turtles between 2nd point and down past the boat
Launching Also there were at least 3 dead seals down there too.

Accordingly to the fishermen they started net fishing about 10 days ago

We have been coming down for four years. We truly love this place, the kind locals, the safety, but this is a very sad few days. Like someone went into an aquarium and killed everything

What's to DOUBT ?

MrBillM - 6-17-2019 at 09:14 PM

This kind of crap happens all the time and most ANYONE who has spent years in Baja has seen similar situations. While many will attempt to excuse or justify the illegal and immoral rapine activities, none have credibility in denying their existence.

motoged - 6-17-2019 at 09:54 PM

No worries, folks....just the norm for the planet's decline....

BornFisher - 6-17-2019 at 10:20 PM

Sometimes I hate Mexico.

motoged - 6-17-2019 at 10:40 PM

It's not just Mexico....

mtgoat666 - 6-17-2019 at 10:42 PM

Don’t worry, be happy!

Always look on the bright side of life!

Peace, love and (sustainable) fish tacos!

David K - 6-18-2019 at 07:43 AM

Quote: Originally posted by ocshredder  
To answer all the doubting people I’ll try my best
Saw 2 dead turtles up past the last point on the beach, one dead turtle at 4th point, 4 dead turtles between 2nd point and down past the boat
Launching Also there were at least 3 dead seals down there too.

Accordingly to the fishermen they started net fishing about 10 days ago

We have been coming down for four years. We truly love this place, the kind locals, the safety, but this is a very sad few days. Like someone went into an aquarium and killed everything


Did you take any photos?
I am happy to add them here for you until you figure out how to add them.
Email them to me at: info AT vivabaja.com (AT = @)

JoeJustJoe - 6-18-2019 at 07:55 AM

Quote: Originally posted by solosancarlos  
[r


something just sounds a bit contrived with this story. It's sad if it's true but I just don't believe it. Was there 3 weeks ago and saw nothing of this



[Edited on 6-17-2019 by solosancarlos]


I'm with you Soloancarlos, when the OP claimed baby cub caught in the net and crying all night. My BS detector went off especially with the crying daughter.

This guy was here almost exactly the same last year claiming the very same thing about the killing and the slaughter of sea turtles last year like its an obsession with him.

I bet he will be back next year too with the same story.

If you want to raise awareness of the sea turtles, there is a better way then doing tearjerker stories.



[Edited on 6-18-2019 by JoeJustJoe]

ocshredder - 6-18-2019 at 08:29 AM

Wow. Kind of shocked and insulted by some of the responses on here. Seems like there are some extremely sarcastic people that are sitting in there sofas stateside, I had to wait for satélite Internet café to open to see these. Anyway, I have not taken any pictures but I will. And to those that doubt the sadness of a 8 year old little girl that takes pride in helping and preserving nature, that shows you’re a pretty disgusting person internally. All I was doing was bringing this to the table, from what I gather, it’s normal. Just seems odd in 2019 that this type of hunting is allowed and continuing.
May the oceans be saved.

solosancarlos - 6-18-2019 at 08:59 AM

Fair enough then and accept my apologies please. If the nets have only recently been in use than it is obvious to me why I didn't see any evidence of this when I was there.


Having been living, working and traveling baja for a whopping 15 yrs or so now I have begun to harden a bit to the constant giddiness of Baja visitors and the need to tell their story.

Reality and reactions often don't tell the same story. Especially, in the bizarre culture known as Mexico. Events take on that mythical aura in what seems like minutes. The what happened, the what the authorities claim happened and what the people say happened.

Always three completely different tales

It is human nature to want to embrace and share information. Often it is good news and sadly, often it is not. Mexico shows the visitor quite quickly both sides and both give us powerful reactions.

Best all and I will try and temper my comments for the future.

[Edited on 6-18-2019 by solosancarlos]

Bajazly - 6-18-2019 at 09:04 AM

Quote: Originally posted by JoeJustJoe  

...when the OP claimed baby seals were being clubbed


Where the hell did you imagine this from? Can you even read?
You are an A$$!

JoeJustJoe - 6-18-2019 at 10:10 AM

I went back and fixed my post as I was waiting for my UBER ride when I first posted and was in a hurry.

Read the OPs previous posts, it's the same thing last year. He should have prepared his daughter that she will see dead turtles on the beach. If the pup was crying all night in the net why didn't the OP go out there and free it?

ocshredder - 6-18-2019 at 10:43 AM

Was told if you were to touch a net , you go to jail or worse.
Trust me, I would of paddled my longboard out there and cut it free in the dark if jail wouldn’t have been the outcome.

Bubba - 6-18-2019 at 11:19 AM

Quote: Originally posted by ocshredder  
Made our annual summer trek to Scorpion Bay with the kids. Been here two days and have seen 7 dead sea turtles , too many skate rays, sea horses, small fish ( halibut, corvina, s paper types). They are setting nets from the bay to points far and near. My little daughter was nearly in tears seeing all the turtles. Overfishing to the maximum, went down to the beach and watched them unload the boats. In short, there’ll be no more sea life here in the next 2 years. Sad.


This has always made my blood boil. Been fishing the SOC for 30+ yrs and I realize the businesses down there try and hide this but the truth is, they've been shooting themselves in the foot for a long time. I have watched the fish counts decline personally for a long time. They have literally raped that sea for everything in it with total disregard for everything/anything...

Myself and many of my friends used to spend a lot money down there fishing (a lot of C&R, just keeping what we could eat fresh that night/next day) giving back to the local economy with renting rooms, eating at restaurants, buying "souvenirs" that we already had, etc.. just trying to give back... We all decided to spend our money else where now and won't be going back in the near future...

elgatoloco - 6-18-2019 at 01:12 PM

Appreciate the heads up and info. Sorry you had to witness that fact of life in Baja. Desperate or lazy its hard to know the motivation of the fisher people who pillage. I have never walked in their shoes so its' hard to wrap ones head around it all. We witnessed similar activity at Playa Requeson (gill net) and it was sad. The guys doing it did not seem to have much going for them.

Please ignore the trolls, especially JJJ as he is the biggest buttcrack to ever grace these pages but I only been hanging around since pretty much the beginning. He is a 'keyboard commando' with not much of a life. Think of it (jjj) as that piece of gum you got on your flip flop, just scrape it off with some driftwood and move on down the beach enjoying things to the max.

Don't sweat the small stuff!

Quote: Originally posted by ocshredder  
Wow. Kind of shocked and insulted by some of the responses on here. Seems like there are some extremely sarcastic people that are sitting in there sofas stateside, I had to wait for satélite Internet café to open to see these. Anyway, I have not taken any pictures but I will. And to those that doubt the sadness of a 8 year old little girl that takes pride in helping and preserving nature, that shows you’re a pretty disgusting person internally. All I was doing was bringing this to the table, from what I gather, it’s normal. Just seems odd in 2019 that this type of hunting is allowed and continuing.
May the oceans be saved.

John Harper - 6-18-2019 at 01:23 PM

Quote: Originally posted by elgatoloco  
Think of it (jjj) as that piece of gum you got on your flip flop, just scrape it off with some driftwood and move on down the beach enjoying things to the max.


More like beach tar on your foot, annoying and hard to get rid of.

John

JoeJustJoe - 6-18-2019 at 02:47 PM

I'm sorry, but you can only cry wolf so many times, because you get used to whatever you're outraged about. Ocshredder, only has 10 posts, but the vast majority of them are about dead sea turtles. I'm pretty sure, he will be back next year again with this daughter and be outraged again over dead sea turtles. I get it he has an agenda.

The other selective outrage are the same type of "Baja Nomad" members who will use threads like this to stick out their big fat fingers, and point them at Mexican poachers, hunters, or fisherman, as if they were members of PETA, CODEPINK, or environmentalists.

The kicker, is you know they are not PETA members, and you know they think nothing of killing innocent animals or sadistically be involved in sports fishing for fun, nor do they care about the environment, because they are Trump supporters, but like Trump, can never miss a beat to bash Mexicans when the subject comes up. It's enough to make me want a a cup of turtle soup.

This is what Ocshredder posted last years at exactly the same time:

Quote: Originally posted by ocshredder  
We are camping in San Juanico, Baja Sur, aka scorpion bay, and are curious to why there are so many dead sea turtles washing up around the points and the beach down the way ??

mtgoat666 - 6-18-2019 at 05:34 PM

Just ignore joe when he gets off track,... he tends to accentuate schisms with skepticism and criticism (and some other -isms)

And get back to living the life of peace, love and sustainable fish tacos!

ocshredder - 6-18-2019 at 05:46 PM

In regards to JustJoeJust or whatever it is. I did post
That last year and was told there was some shrimp boats dragging nets in the night. That was a lie I know now. And there are way more dead turtles this year. Too many to count at this point horrific. We are headed to east cape early. Too depressing here unfortunately. Hope we will come back someday when it’s not a slaughterhouse. And I don’t get into trash talking , especially online , but Joe you should get out of your house and go see the world my friend

charliemanson - 6-18-2019 at 05:59 PM

‘but Joe you should get out of your house and go see the world my friend"


Amen! Some do make an interesting, informative post a PIA to read through. The dude,jjj, is an burrohat at best with nothing to do.
Thanks for the interesting post and the balls to do it here on this forum.
I have seen the same slaughter over the past 20 years and it is sad.

It is unfortunate that other people don‘t post information like this, and I can‘t blame them due to trolls looking to beat you up as the are switching between this forum and free porn because they don't "work" anymore. Just Jack Jackin...JJJ

mtgoat666 - 6-18-2019 at 09:01 PM


Most “sport” fishermen like to think they are God’s gift to fish because they catch and release. Fact is that most released fish die, they almost all suffer trauma in the catch.

I suppose the world can support sport fishermen fishing occasionally, maybe a few times per year per individual. If they fish daily or weekly, they are as bad for the environment as commercial gill netters.

I find it sad that the gill netters and drift netters and long liners and sportsmen kill so much extra sea life,... but reality is that the world is full of 7,500,000,000+ people, and people are Gonna do what they need or want to do until someone teaches them better and govt or agencies police the environment. When you got to control the excesses of 7,500,000,000+ people, big govt is good

Practice birth control!
Be vegan!
Don’t be evil!

[Edited on 6-19-2019 by mtgoat666]

Enrique2012 - 6-18-2019 at 09:57 PM

Once again Goat666 has open his mouth and proved to everyone that he's a know-nothing marooon. At least he's consistent.

Sport fishing has never been the problem, and never will be. Their catch represents a tiny fraction of what's taken.

You're an idiot.

mtgoat666 - 6-19-2019 at 06:01 AM

Quote: Originally posted by Enrique2012  
Once again Goat666 has open his mouth and proved to everyone that he's a know-nothing marooon. At least he's consistent.

Sport fishing has never been the problem, and never will be. Their catch represents a tiny fraction of what's taken.

You're an idiot.


BS!

Tons of studies show sports fishing depletes the stock and must be controlled. Do you think the seasonal and daily limits for sports fishing are just for chits and grins?
Show me one study that shows good survival rates for catch and release of deep water fish. They all die.

JoeJustJoe - 6-19-2019 at 07:48 AM

Since a few American sports fisherman, got on top of their high horse, and pointed their fingers at Mexican commercial fisherman, using nets which also tragically catches other marine life in their nets like turtles, and happens all over the world, and is not unique to desperate or lazy Mexicans, who pillage, as one "Nomad" posted in this thread a few posts back.

There are a couple of theories and studies out there trying to answer the question, if fish feel pain.

One so-called study, a few years back, claim fish do not feel pain, because they don't have enough pain receptors in their bodies, and what you see the fish responding to his unconscious stimuli, and they basically say the fish have small brains and are just too stupid to feel pain.

Other newer studies, from the University of Edinburgh, however have concluded that fish do indeed feel pain, and as soon as you yank them from the water they begin to suffocate, their gills often collapse, and fish have the capacity for pain and suffering.

Of course then you have men, usually ultra conservative types, who believe they are on top of the food chain, and say, " you don't see sharks, caring about the pain of the flounder of the seal, and so why should they worry about it?

These types, claim animal rights activist deny human exceptionalism.

You could probably guess what I think of human exceptionalism, and especially American exceptionalism, that is alive and well on this forum.




SFandH - 6-19-2019 at 09:16 AM

Catch and release certainly doesn't work with fish caught in deep water. The rapid change in pressure kills them before you get them on board. At least that is my experience when winter bottom fishing off of San Diego.

I've read that survival rate for released fish not caught at depth is around 50%. I imagine it depends upon the species.

ncampion - 6-19-2019 at 09:16 AM

Quote: Originally posted by mtgoat666  


BS!

Tons of studies show sports fishing depletes the stock and must be controlled. Do you think the seasonal and daily limits for sports fishing are just for chits and grins?
Show me one study that shows good survival rates for catch and release of deep water fish. They all die.


From Wikepedia:

"While a number of scientific studies (source/citation needed) have now found shallow water fish caught-and-released on fly and lure have extremely high survival rates (95–97%)[citation needed] and moderately high survival rates on bait (70–90%, depending on species, bait, hook size, etc.), emerging research suggests catch and release does not work very well with fish caught when deep sea fishing."

Link to reference: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catch_and_release

ncampion - 6-19-2019 at 09:19 AM

On fish and pain:

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/science/science-news/979794...

Udo - 6-19-2019 at 10:05 AM

Here in the Ensenada area, we have a very aggressive co-op and patrol system. The Mexican Navy is also constantly patrolling the waters, even down as far as San Quintin.

ncampion - 6-19-2019 at 10:09 AM

OK, now I'm finished being all of your research assistants. You can all use search engines as well as I.

https://www.nytimes.com/roomfordebate/2010/08/08/should-fly-...

LancairDriver - 6-19-2019 at 10:23 AM

Quote: Originally posted by SFandH  
Catch and release certainly doesn't work with fish caught in deep water. The rapid change in pressure kills them before you get them on board. At least that is my experience when winter bottom fishing off of San Diego.

I've read that survival rate for released fish not caught at depth is around 50%. I imagine it depends upon the species.


There are a number of simple devices available allowing you to return the fish to the depth you have been fishing and they work very well. It is now the law in Oregon you must have one of these release devises on board your boat or face a fine. All of the chartered sport boats are now using them. They used to have the water around the boat cluttered with dead and dying fish of the endangered species until the Captain declared they have to move their location as they were killing too many. I don’t know the survival rate using this method as you never see the fish againbut it is certainly higher than piercing the bladders.

Back in the Good Old Days .......................

MrBillM - 6-21-2019 at 10:30 AM

'50s and '60s

We used to fish off Catalina Island and FILL multiple Gunny-Sacks in short-order with Rock-Cod using leaders with (6) hooks and a heavy sinker to make hauling in from that deep water worth the effort. IF we slowed our retrieval in that last 50-100' or so we'd often come up with heads only thanks to the Blue Sharks.

GREAT tasting fish worth the effort !

They died for a good cause.


[Edited on 6-21-2019 by MrBillM]

JoeJustJoe - 6-22-2019 at 06:57 AM

If you're really about the disappearing fish. You should not worry about only overfishing but you should also worry about global warming, that is responsible for the decline about 4% of the fish worldwide, and even more in specific places in the world, according to a new study.


[img]Climate change is endangering fish worldwide, shrinking populations by up to 35% in coastal regions near China and Japan, scientists say.

Ocean warming has led to a 4% global decline in sustainable catches, the greatest amount of fish that can be caught without depleting stocks long-term, according to a studypublished Thursday in the journal Scienc
[/img]

monoloco - 6-22-2019 at 12:12 PM

I see this forum hasn't changed at all.

Gscott - 6-25-2019 at 10:23 PM

Until and unless the dams are removed from the Colorado River the fish life in the Sea of Cortez is doomed. No amount of climate changing (that we're experiencing) or over-fishing will do the damage done by stealing river flows for farming in California. But lets keep complaining about the end of the Little Ice Age instead of repairing the real damage done.


[Edited on 6-26-2019 by Gscott]

solosancarlos - 6-26-2019 at 09:09 AM

Quote: Originally posted by lencho  
Quote: Originally posted by Gscott  
Until and unless the dams are removed from the Colorado River the fish life in the Sea of Cortez is doomed.
Pardon my ignorance, what's the connection? :?:



chemtrails are most definitely the connection

Bubba - 6-26-2019 at 09:24 AM

Quote: Originally posted by lencho  
Quote: Originally posted by Gscott  
Until and unless the dams are removed from the Colorado River the fish life in the Sea of Cortez is doomed.
Pardon my ignorance, what's the connection? :?:


There is no connection. He's just trying to lead others away from the fact that the SOC's once very healthy fishery is now and has been on a sharp decline for yrs due to being over fished by not only illegal and commercials but "sport" fishermen as well.

David K - 6-26-2019 at 09:28 AM

Earth is due for a re-boot and it will be Nature not man with the power to do so.

BajaRat - 7-3-2019 at 05:05 PM

Net fishing sucks
We have pulled out many unintended victims over the years .
Common sense would dictate no more net fishing .
No one has ever accused a gill netter of posessing common sense .
Lionel :cool:

mtgoat666 - 7-3-2019 at 06:10 PM

Quote: Originally posted by David K  
Earth is due for a re-boot and it will be Nature not man with the power to do so.


Man has already changed the climate, and at rate emissions are continuing the climate “re-boot” (i.e. climate change) and ecological changes will be enormous.

Dk, you continue to deny, you are part of the collective denialists ruining your descendant’s world because fear and greed prevent you from acting.

ocshredder - 7-4-2019 at 06:24 AM

Our neighbors are camping there this holiday week. They saw no large turtles but too many dead juvenile turtles to keep count. Lots of dead sharks too. The local gill net fisherman say it’s the red tide. Lol.

David K - 7-4-2019 at 06:43 AM

Quote: Originally posted by mtgoat666  
Quote: Originally posted by David K  
Earth is due for a re-boot and it will be Nature not man with the power to do so.


Man has already changed the climate, and at rate emissions are continuing the climate “re-boot” (i.e. climate change) and ecological changes will be enormous.

Dk, you continue to deny, you are part of the collective denialists ruining your descendant’s world because fear and greed prevent you from acting.



Facts are facts and are not predictions, Goat.
Your group loves to make predictions... You say they are based on facts and science. Yet, nothing your group has claimed would happen has happened. You continue to peddle your 'fear and tax everyone' ideas but Nature still bats last. The sea level is still the same place it has been the past hundred years, photos don't lie. The earth is not burning as Al Gore claimed. For him the truth really is inconvenient. Climate does change over long periods of time but not in one generation. It is the weather that changes, in cycles... hot to cold to hot again. Wet to dry to wet again. Everything is normal and natural. The sun, volcanoes, and meteors will change the climate, not punishing the American people!

David K - 7-4-2019 at 07:19 AM

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Climate simulation models do not reproduce the observed natural variability of the climate and, in particular, do not reconstruct the warm periods of the last 10,000 years. These were repeated about every thousand years and include the well-known Medieval Warm Period , the Hot Roman Period , and generally warm periods during the Optimal Holocene period .

These PERIODS OF THE PAST HAVE ALSO BEEN WARMER THAN THE PRESENT PERIOD, despite the CO2 concentration being lower than the current, while they are related to the millennial cycles of solar activity. These effects are not reproduced by the models.

It should be remembered that the heating observed since 1900 has actually started in the 1700s, ie at the minimum of the Little Ice Age , the coldest period of the last 10,000 years (corresponding to the millennial minimum of solar activity that astrophysicists call Maunder Minimal Solar ). Since then, solar activity, following its millennial cycle, has increased by heating the earth's surface.

Furthermore, the models fail to reproduce the known climatic oscillations of about 60 years.

These were responsible, for example, for a warming period (1850-1880) followed by a cooling period (1880-1910), a heating (1910-40), a cooling (1940-70) and a a new warming period (1970-2000) similar to that observed 60 years earlier.

The following years (2000-2019) saw the increase not predicted by the models of about 0.2 ° C per decade, but a substantial climatic stability that was sporadically interrupted by the rapid natural oscillations of the equatorial Pacific ocean, known as the El Nino Southern Oscillations , like the one that led to temporary warming between 2015 and 2016.

The media also claim that extreme events, such as hurricanes and cyclones, have increased alarmingly. Conversely, these events, like many climate systems, have been modulated since the aforementioned 60-year cycle.

For example, if we consider the official data from 1880 on tropical Atlantic cyclones that hit North America, they appear to have a strong 60-year oscillation, correlated with the Atlantic Ocean's thermal oscillation called Atlantic Multidecadal Oscillation .

The peaks observed per decade are compatible with each other in the years 1880-90, 1940-50 and 1995-2005. From 2005 to 2015 the number of cyclones decreased precisely following the aforementioned cycle. Thus, in the period 1880-2015, between number of cyclones (which oscillates) and CO 2 (which increases monotonically) there is no correlation.

The climate system is not yet sufficiently understood. Although it is true that CO2 is a greenhouse gas, according to the IPCC itself the climate sensitivity to its increase in the atmosphere is still extremely uncertain.

It is estimated that a doubling of the concentration of atmospheric CO2, from around 300 ppm pre-industrial to 600 ppm, can raise the average temperature of the planet from a minimum of 1 ° C to a maximum of 5 ° C.

This uncertainty is enormous.

In any case, many recent studies based on experimental data estimate that the climate sensitivity to CO2 is CONSIDERABLY LOWER than that estimated by the IPCC models.

Then, it is scientifically unrealistic to attribute to humans the responsibility for warming observed from the past century to today. The advanced alarmist forecasts, therefore, are not credible, since they are based on models whose results contradict the experimental data.

All the evidence suggests that these MODELS OVERESTIMATE the anthropic contribution and underestimate the natural climatic variability, especially that induced by the sun, the moon, and ocean oscillations.

Finally, the media release the message according to which, with regard to the human cause
of current climate change, there would be an almost unanimous consensus among scientists that the scientific debate would be closed.

However, first of all we must be aware that the scientific method dictates that the facts , and not the number of adherents, make a conjecture a consolidated scientific theory .

In any case, the same alleged consensus DOES NOT EXIST. In fact, there is a remarkable variability of opinions among specialists - climatologists, meteorologists, geologists, geophysicists, astrophysicists - many of whom recognize an important natural contribution to global warming observed from the pre-industrial period and even from the post-war period to today.

There have also been petitions signed by thousands of scientists who have expressed dissent with the conjecture of anthropic global warming.

These include the one promoted in 2007 by the physicist F. Seitz, former president of the American National Academy of Sciences , and the one promoted by the Non-governmental International Panel on Climate Change (NIPCC), whose 2009 report concludes that "Nature does not the activity of Man governs the climate ”.

In conclusion, given the CRUCIAL IMPORTANCE THAT FOSSIL FUELS have for the energy supply of humanity, we suggest that they do not adhere to policies of uncritical reduction of the emission of carbon dioxide into the atmosphere with THE ILLUSORY PRETENSE OF GOVERNING THE CLIMATE.

http://www.opinione.it/…/redazione_riscaldamento-globale-...

PROMOTING COMMITTEE :

1. Uberto Crescenti, Emeritus Professor of Applied Geology, University G. D’Annunzio, Chieti-Pescara, formerly Rector and President of the Italian Geological Society.

2. Giuliano Panza, Professor of Seismology, University of Trieste, Academician of the Lincei and of the National Academy of Sciences, called of the XL, 2018 International Award of the American Geophysical Union.

3. Alberto Prestininzi, Professor of Applied Geology, La Sapienza University, Rome, formerly Scientific Editor in Chief of the magazine International IJEGE and Director of the Geological Risk Forecasting and Control Research Center.

4. Franco Prodi, Professor of Atmospheric Physics, University of Ferrara.

5. Franco Battaglia, Professor of Physical Chemistry, University of Modena; Galileo Movement 2001.

6. Mario Giaccio, Professor of Technology and Economics of Energy Sources, University G. D’Annunzio, Chieti-Pescara, former Dean of the Faculty of Economics.

7. Enrico Miccadei, Professor of Physical Geography and Geomorphology, University G. D’Annunzio, Chieti-Pescara.

8. Nicola Scafetta, Professor of Atmospheric Physics and Oceanography, Federico II University, Naples.

Skipjack Joe - 7-4-2019 at 07:59 AM

Quote: Originally posted by monoloco  
I see this forum hasn't changed at all.


:lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:

Nope. The show must go on.

charliemanson - 7-4-2019 at 12:08 PM

Same old grumps. However I find no correlation between almost 90 degree temps in Alaska for a week and any sign of climate change. :?::?: WTF!
Trump must be correct in thinking all is well. Hum, Record temps at the woman World Cup in France... certainly a fluke .

Me in the A/C before golf later in la notches, at this hour surfing this site? Defiantly a fluke. What has happened to my life?

Seriously, Houston we have a problem. Maybe they should fly the Baby Trump ballon today with an ostrich head in the sand ballon beside it. I pray for my children that they don't fry like an egg within the next 2 decades.

It has became way hotter here in BCS over the last 10 years than it was before. Granted May and June were perfect, but Alaska as hot as here now...that might be a problem

Yeah, I know. Just like Baby Boy tweeted today that if you don't like
"Our conditions here", just go back to where you're from. WTF to go when we are going to boil like illegally caught cameron in a pot. Well, might as well go kill more fish and sealife and wait until we do boil over and eat well at least.

Sorry, got to go now as the alberca is starting to overheat and I need to use it before we are out of agua. (that should stimulate the greeners)

God I love this place!

Good day


THE GREAT CLIMATE DEBATE

MrBillM - 7-4-2019 at 12:29 PM

It's such a great debate for a place such as this because it allows every point of view to be pompously expressed as though the participants were gifted with great insight, wisdom and erudition regardless of position safe in the knowledge that they will not likely be proven right or wrong until long after they're dead.

Someone could just as easily argue that Wee Leprechauns deep down inside the earth are brewing magical gases in great pots which change the weather and not be proven wrong.

Granted, he might be viewed with greater skepticism than even a "reason-challenged" member of the Doofus Donald fellowship, but (maybe) not by much.

BajaRat - 7-4-2019 at 01:03 PM

Arguing over climate change is just a distraction allowing the planet's abusers

to rape and disrespect our environment and its inhabitants for power and profit.

As long as we are distracted by shiny things it will remain unchecked and our

descendants will curse their ancestors.

Lionel :cool:

JoeJustJoe - 7-5-2019 at 07:49 AM

It was 90 degrees in Anchorage Alaska, yesterday!

Now one weather abnormality either to the hot or cold side usually don't signal anything unusual and are just part of a long pattern within the standard deviation of weather temperatures that can change over a long period of time.

However, for the last few years, we have seen very wild swings in weather temperatures, heavy rains, hurricanes, droughts and wild fires. These are patterns that can no longer be ignored and written off as just part of the normal natural cycle.

What people like David K and his fellow deniers continue to ignore, is global is accelerated closer to the poles at a much faster rate than the rest of the world. In Alaska, the ocean surface temperatures are upwards of 10 degrees higher and more, which is driving these high temperature changes.
___________________

Anchorage was 90 degrees on July 4. That's not a typo

Alaska's heat wave continued through Independence Day, and in Anchorage, the temperatures shattered an all-time record.

The temperature at the airport was 90 degrees Thursday, besting June 14, 1969, for the highest mark ever reached in the state, according to the National Weather Service.

Across south Alaska, the mercury was expected to rise to record or near-record levels on the nation's 243rd birthday and continue at above-average levels through next week, the National Weather Service reports.
Last month was the warmest June on record, with an average temperature of 60.5 degrees -- 5.3 above average

https://www.cnn.com/2019/07/04/us/alaska-record-heat-trnd-wx...

David K - 7-5-2019 at 07:58 AM

I don't deny facts... I have denied fanatical predictions... all of which have not come true. You want photos proving the sea level has not risen?

mtgoat666 - 7-5-2019 at 10:14 AM

Quote: Originally posted by David K  
I don't deny facts... I have denied fanatical predictions... all of which have not come true. You want photos proving the sea level has not risen?


You are delusional! Talk your doctor, there is treatment for your disorder, therapy and anti-psychotic meds.

For chits and grins, why don’t you post those palm tree pictures that disprove the researchers, eh?

In the Heat, Never will the Twain Meet !

MrBillM - 7-5-2019 at 10:25 AM

ACCEPT the one true FACT !

Among the Fuhrer Following, nary a varying word will be heard.

It is (and will always be) as the Orange One utters and there can be no question or doubt.

Cliffy - 7-5-2019 at 07:11 PM

Among the 20+ climate "models" in use only one has actually shown any parallel to what is actually happening, Ironically its the Russian model!

Shields are up.

aburruss - 7-5-2019 at 10:37 PM

But what about the turtles in San Juanico?

;)

Bajazly - 7-6-2019 at 01:22 AM

Quote: Originally posted by aburruss  
But what about the turtles in San Juanico?

;)


They’re dead!

Bubba - 7-6-2019 at 05:29 AM

Quote: Originally posted by aburruss  
But what about the turtles in San Juanico?

;)


Exactly. Pretty typical of this site for posts to go completely sideways. Especially when people like Jay Salman, aka JJJ get involved and starts his delusional rambling.

Cliffy - 7-6-2019 at 07:23 AM

There is also some recent evidence from NASA that shows that the earth is more "green" due to the raising CO2 level. Plant Biology 101- plants use CO2

Shields still up.

JoeJustJoe - 7-6-2019 at 08:47 AM

Quote: Originally posted by Cliffy  
There is also some recent evidence from NASA that shows that the earth is more "green" due to the raising CO2 level. Plant Biology 101- plants use CO2

Shields still up.


Yeah shields are up because you can't possibly back up what you say with legitimated links from real scientists that are not on the payroll of Exxon, where the polluters who are paid big money to confuse the issue, just like the tobacco industry used to do to deny that smoking causes cancer.

We know why the tobacco industry, the oil industry, and others deny or confuse the issue of the pretty much irrefutable evidence that tobacco, causes cancer, or that the oil industry, and other companies pollutes the planet, and cause global warming, it's to save themselves from costly lawsuits that may put them out of business........the question to ask, what's your excuse Cliffy?

IF you also noticed David K. linked some foreign page from Italy that made a case for deny global warming. The deniers do that because they know any links from the US they put up can be fact checked, and ties to big oil could be found, but it's much harder to review foreign links. Nice try David K.

It is SAD .....................

MrBillM - 7-6-2019 at 08:59 AM

............... To hear of Turtles DEAD without someone (or some creature) being FED.

A tasty treat gone to waste.

Bubba - 7-6-2019 at 09:02 AM

Quote: Originally posted by Cliffy  
There is also some recent evidence from NASA that shows that the earth is more "green" due to the raising CO2 level. Plant Biology 101- plants use CO2

Shields still up.


I like this.

Cliffy - 7-6-2019 at 11:16 AM

Ya, I did have fried turtle once at Papa's (with Papa) in Gonzaga many decades ago. It was real good as I remember.

When predictions on short term data for long term effects are the only thing to go on, I'm skeptical.

When the models cherry pick data for prognostications, I'm skeptical.

When the problem is renamed 3 times to recycle the argument because the reality doesn't follow the prediction, I am skeptical.

When every climate model used but one is way off on what is actually happening, I'm skeptical.

I'm old enough to remember a time when an Ice Age was predicted in the near future. I'm old enough to remember a famous politician saying the world would end 10 years ago if we didn't pay attention to "global warming". Now we recycle to "climate change" as the narrative. In my life time we've gone from glaciers in the mid-west to worry about to the end of the world, now, in 12 years. AND the one making the loudest noise about the end of the world wasn't even alive when we were worried about glaciers in OHIO. I've got shoes older than her. (They are probably smarter than her also) Things like this make me skeptical.

Follow the money! Famous old phrase.

Kool-Aid can be drunk on both sides of any argument.

I'm still here and I don't worry about my kids after me either.

mtgoat666 - 7-6-2019 at 02:36 PM

Quote: Originally posted by Cliffy  
Ya, I did have fried turtle once at Papa's (with Papa) in Gonzaga many decades ago. It was real good as I remember.


I recall There was a thread on baja nomad many years ago about a restaurant on beach at bahia concepcion that serves turtle soup. I think they got in trouble, they should serve a mock turtle soup with stew beef.

Seriously, you can find some good mock turtle soup recipes on line for creole style.
Speaking of soup/stew, time for some pepper pot or mulligatany... sometimes mexican food gets boring, eh?
Summer is here, time for gazpacho!

Cliffy - 7-6-2019 at 04:39 PM

At that time, way back then, I was in Papa's house eating with his family and playing with his grandkids. I brought down lots of balloons for them to play with. The kids loved it.

Back then there wasn't so much of an issue eating turtle. Wouldn't do it today though.

I'd do some pickled herring and brunost cheese

[Edited on 7-6-2019 by Cliffy]

No Issue Back in the Day ..................

MrBillM - 7-6-2019 at 04:52 PM

In the early (and mid [?]) '80s, there was Turtle meat for sale at the Calimex in Mexicali.

Times change.