BajaNomad

El Camino Real Bell Removed - Racist Symbol

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bajaguy - 6-22-2019 at 07:33 AM

“The bell marker, which memorializes the California Missions and an imagined route of travel that once connected them, is viewed by the Amah Mutsun and many other California indigenous people as a racist symbol that glorifies the domination and dehumanization of their ancestors,”....................

https://www.foxnews.com/us/university-of-california-santa-cr...

[Edited on 6-22-2019 by bajaguy]

JoeJustJoe - 6-22-2019 at 07:52 AM

How true from the article:

“It is shameful that these places where our ancestors were enslaved, whipped, raped, tortured and exposed to fatal diseases have been whitewashed and converted into tourist attractions.”

BTW the Amah Mutsun Indians recommended a couple of choices for the bell in another article.

1. Melt it down and recycle for peaceful purposes.

2. Put it in a museum with the proper historical context.

BTW the UC students also petitioned for its removal.




[Edited on 6-22-2019 by JoeJustJoe]

David K - 6-22-2019 at 08:06 AM

Graffiti on the bell says "Viva"... the language of the "oppressors", too funny.

The missions were a fact of history as was El Camino Real. Removing symbols that showed the route of El Camino Real doesn't make the history change. After the Spanish, who used the mission program to begin colonization, came the Mexicans, then the Americans into Alta California. At what point in history are you going to stop removing it to feel good? Are people at college so weak in their minds they can't judge for themselves? What happened to the acceptance of other cultures and other people's traditions in liberal ideology?

Do we stop teaching about the past? Is ignorance of what happened before we were alive the new norm? I bet they are still teaching about Karl Marx and socialism, a past, and failed ideology.

55steve - 6-22-2019 at 08:22 AM

‘The past was erased, the erasure was forgotten, the lie became the truth.’ George Orwell

caj13 - 6-22-2019 at 09:28 AM

Quote: Originally posted by David K  
Graffiti on the bell says "Viva"... the language of the "oppressors", too funny.

The missions were a fact of history as was El Camino Real. Removing symbols that showed the route of El Camino Real doesn't make the history change. After the Spanish, who used the mission program to begin colonization, came the Mexicans, then the Americans into Alta California. At what point in history are you going to stop removing it to feel good? Are people at college so weak in their minds they can't judge for themselves? What happened to the acceptance of other cultures and other people's traditions in liberal ideology?

Do we stop teaching about the past? Is ignorance of what happened before we were alive the new norm? I bet they are still teaching about Karl Marx and socialism, a past, and failed ideology.


We teach bout the past to elucidate the future, and hopefully, by that learning, become committed to not repeating the same mistakes!

. accepting vile behaviors, murder and repression as "part of history" allow it to become normalized, and accepted.

those (teaching history, and revision of history to sanitize and excuse the behaviors of evil individuals and cultures) are 2 very different things.

In my mind N-zi Germany was the height of human garbage - and should never be forgotten, and certainly not accepted in any way shape or form. i feel the same way about the Armenian genocide, The Rowandan Genocide - etc.

Sure the missions are history - good to learn about. But part of that history is the treatment and outcomes of that treatment to indigenous Americans. I believe it is good to teach the history - but lets teach it all, not just cherry pick the "benevolent Christians saving lost souls" crap! Just another in a long line of historical, Killing people and cultures, and civilizations because they worship a different God that you do, and your god is all powerful, so its OK to kill these subhuman vermin!

in my opinion, you ought to leave the markers up - and right next to each marker you put prominent signs with totals of numbers of native Americans , impressed into slavery, imprisoned, diseased and killed! And most importantly - who did the killing - why? and how those criminals justified their behavior and actions toward different cultures!

SFandH - 6-22-2019 at 09:37 AM

Quote: Originally posted by caj13  


in my opinion, you ought to leave the markers up - and right next to each marker you put prominent signs with totals of numbers of native Americans , impressed into slavery, imprisoned, diseased and killed! And most importantly - who did the killing - why? and how those criminals justified their behavior and actions toward different cultures!


I was thinking the same thing. It's puzzling how people that called themselves Christians could have been so brutal towards the indigenous people.

Lee - 6-22-2019 at 09:52 AM

The Spanish sent their best and brightest when they invaded what's now called Mexico. This was a short time after the Spanish Inquisition. The missions and ruins represent a dark period for natives. Why gringoes would want to glorify what the Spanish did is puzzling.

David K - 6-22-2019 at 09:53 AM

That brutal comment is generalizing a period of over 200 years and not any more factual than the opposite version of mission events which says all was wonderful (I don't think anyone actually says that).

Keep in mind that Alta California was only under Franciscan administration after they only spent 5 years in Baja (1768-1773).

The Dominican operated the Baja missions after April 1773.

The Jesuits were a totally different organization until they were removed from power by the Spanish government at the end of 1767.

motoged - 6-22-2019 at 10:22 AM

Some appropriate responses posted .....so far. :light:

DK, your incessant shilling of the lure of missions is in keeping with your values.....supporting the Spanish and "religious" invasion of countries without critical thinking or appropriate accurate depiction of events..... no wonder you are a Trump supporter.

"Indigenous Americans "....from the Arctic to at least Central America, had been oppressed by religious imperialism....and we are seeing indigenous cultures around the world standing up to the historical injustices.....as they find their "voice". Of course this upsets the folks insensitive to such "re-balancing".

BajaTed - 6-22-2019 at 10:44 AM

Eventually all historical landmarks will be replaced with a database geocache.

motoged - 6-22-2019 at 11:11 AM

Quote: Originally posted by David K  
Graffiti on the bell says "Viva"... the language of the "oppressors", too funny.

The missions were a fact of history as was El Camino Real. Removing symbols that showed the route of El Camino Real doesn't make the history change. After the Spanish, who used the mission program to begin colonization, came the Mexicans, then the Americans into Alta California. At what point in history are you going to stop removing it to feel good? Are people at college so weak in their minds they can't judge for themselves? What happened to the acceptance of other cultures and other people's traditions in liberal ideology?

Do we stop teaching about the past? Is ignorance of what happened before we were alive the new norm? I bet they are still teaching about Karl Marx and socialism, a past, and failed ideology.


David,
Yes, the missions are a fact of history.....just as are the events of N-zi Germany/Austria.....but intelligent historians report the facts through the eyes of critical thinking and with ALL the facts....and unlikely to glorify a slanted view of the history....as you do.

You said, "After the Spanish, ..... came the Mexicans, then the Americans into Alta California." Correct me if I am wrong, but those "Mexicans" were people of mixed blood resulting from Spanish-Indian(indigenous) offspring.....and I am not sure who you think the "Americans into Alta California" were..... people from the USA (as some people incorrectly refer to citizens of the USA as "Americans") or people from north, central, and south America????

"....removing it to feel good?"

No, David... simply accurately reporting the historical contexts and facts....without justifying, rationalizing, minimizing. omitting, or applying any of the range of cognitive distortions you and your ilk apply to inaccurate historical reporting.

''Are people at college so weak in their minds they can't judge for themselves?"

David, no need to feel threatened by people with an education.... Did you attend any schooling past the 12th grade (assuming you passed grade 12)....and if so, what ? If you went to a college, university, or even a trades school you would likely be able to answer your own question.

"What happened to the acceptance of other cultures and other people's traditions in liberal ideology?"

Where is anyone here not accepting cultures or traditions (perhaps except those not supporting racist ideologies, N-zis, or oppressive cultures?.... your statement has no intelligent bearing in this conversation.

"I bet they are still teaching about Karl Marx and socialism, a past, and failed ideology."

Well I certainly hope they are still teaching such history....not to "brainwash" people of low intellect as you might think, but to simply teach history.....the good, the bad , and the ugly......factual teaching...... sounds like you think they should "hide" such history.....a process that you are indicating in your comments is inappropriate.

You contradict yourself and don't seem to have a basic grasp of logic.....


But that is historically apparent .

David K - 6-22-2019 at 11:22 AM

Ged, I offered to gift you my book so you could see for yourself rather than guess at its contents.
You declined, yet you continue to act like you know what is in it?
What the book contains is an accurate account of the missions founding including who, what, when, where, and why they were built. They are artifacts of the past and show an amazing effort was made in a remote and harsh land, long ago.
The book does not make any judgements or support any religion. That is up to the reader. I only wanted to present the facts as best we know them. I do not tell the reader how they should feel or think.
Data not propaganda.

SFandH - 6-22-2019 at 11:26 AM

Quote: Originally posted by motoged  

..and I am not sure who you think the "Americans into Alta California" were..... people from the USA (as some people incorrectly refer to citizens of the USA as "Americans") or people from north, central, and south America????



Of course, I understand your point but I have a question. What would you suggest people born in the USA call themselves?

Wait a minute! I take that back. I didn't ask that question. :lol:

But let it rip. :lol:

motoged - 6-22-2019 at 11:36 AM

Quote: Originally posted by David K  
Ged, I offered to gift you my book so you could see for yourself rather than guess at its contents.
You declined, yet you continue to act like you know what is in it?.......
Data not propaganda.


What makes you think I haven't seen/looked at/or read your book?

I have in fact thumbed through it and some of your other posted writings.....hence my comments.

I no longer collect books, but you could send me some more Viva Baja stickers ....:light:

JoeJustJoe - 6-22-2019 at 11:44 AM

Thank God, school students will no longer be doing mission projects in school, while also be given the false narrative the missions were a positive experience for the native Indians.

............

For decades, fourth-grade students in California have had one project that has taken over dining room tables, required piles of popsicle sticks and kept parents and kids up at night completing it: building a model of one of the 18th- and 19th-century Spanish missions in the state.

But under a new educational framework the state Department of Education is rolling out, the annual project may become history.

Why? Two reasons: it doesn’t effectively teach students about the mission period and, worse, it might be offensive, according to the state.

motoged - 6-22-2019 at 11:47 AM

Quote: Originally posted by SFandH  


Of course, I understand your point but I have a question. What would you suggest people born in the USA call themselves?

Wait a minute! I take that back. I didn't ask that question. :lol:

But let it rip. :lol:


:lol: funny

I will let you figure that out......I just hope it isn't another term that makes it sound like citizens of the USA are the proprietors of the Americas.... ;)

I have been accused of sounding like I don't like "Americans".... not at all true...... I just don't like some of the attitudes I see in some citizens of the USA....or some other countries....and this forum seems to be overpopulated with "Americans" and their attitudes.... (comes with the territory due to being so close to Baja :biggrin: ) .




motoged - 6-22-2019 at 11:55 AM

Quote: Originally posted by SFandH  

... It's puzzling how people that called themselves Christians could have been so brutal towards the indigenous people.


Well, a whole lot of people around the world have been killed "in the name of Christ" over the past two thousand years....

....as have been killed in the name of other "religious/spiritual" heroes .....

And I agree with your comment :light:

4x4abc - 6-22-2019 at 12:21 PM

Quote: Originally posted by David K  
Graffiti on the bell says "Viva"... the language of the "oppressors", too funny.

The missions were a fact of history as was El Camino Real. Removing symbols that showed the route of El Camino Real doesn't make the history change. After the Spanish, who used the mission program to begin colonization, came the Mexicans, then the Americans into Alta California. At what point in history are you going to stop removing it to feel good? Are people at college so weak in their minds they can't judge for themselves? What happened to the acceptance of other cultures and other people's traditions in liberal ideology?

Do we stop teaching about the past? Is ignorance of what happened before we were alive the new norm? I bet they are still teaching about Karl Marx and socialism, a past, and failed ideology.


So, don't criticize the Spaniards/Missionaries but stop teaching the concepts of Karl Marx? You are weighing (bad) actions of people/governments against an attempt to explain the reasons for such bad actions (Das Kapital) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Das_Kapital

Translated to modern times you could have written a book about the German Autobahn. Just timelines and facts about the Hitler administration who built it. No reflection, no criticism - just people and facts. Plus some admiration for the amazing stuff that has been created against all odds.
But you would rail against people who point out the bad stuff that happened around the Autobahn and the amazing stuff.

norte - 6-22-2019 at 03:40 PM

Quote: Originally posted by 4x4abc  
Quote: Originally posted by David K  
Graffiti on the bell says "Viva"... the language of the "oppressors", too funny.

The missions were a fact of history as was El Camino Real. Removing symbols that showed the route of El Camino Real doesn't make the history change. After the Spanish, who used the mission program to begin colonization, came the Mexicans, then the Americans into Alta California. At what point in history are you going to stop removing it to feel good? Are people at college so weak in their minds they can't judge for themselves? What happened to the acceptance of other cultures and other people's traditions in liberal ideology?

Do we stop teaching about the past? Is ignorance of what happened before we were alive the new norm? I bet they are still teaching about Karl Marx and socialism, a past, and failed ideology.


So, don't criticize the Spaniards/Missionaries but stop teaching the concepts of Karl Marx? You are weighing (bad) actions of people/governments against an attempt to explain the reasons for such bad actions (Das Kapital) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Das_Kapital

Translated to modern times you could have written a book about the German Autobahn. Just timelines and facts about the Hitler administration who built it. No reflection, no criticism - just people and facts. Plus some admiration for the amazing stuff that has been created against all odds.
But you would rail against people who point out the bad stuff that happened around the Autobahn and the amazing stuff.


Or glorify efficiency of german concentration camps.

norte - 6-22-2019 at 03:42 PM

Quote: Originally posted by motoged  
Quote: Originally posted by SFandH  


Of course, I understand your point but I have a question. What would you suggest people born in the USA call themselves?

Wait a minute! I take that back. I didn't ask that question. :lol:

But let it rip. :lol:


:lol: funny

I will let you figure that out......I just hope it isn't another term that makes it sound like citizens of the USA are the proprietors of the Americas.... ;)

I have been accused of sounding like I don't like "Americans".... not at all true...... I just don't like some of the attitudes I see in some citizens of the USA....or some other countries....and this forum seems to be overpopulated with "Americans" and their attitudes.... (comes with the territory due to being so close to Baja :biggrin: ) .



What you don't think David includes all of North America, Central America, and South America as stands to salute MAGA?

mtgoat666 - 6-22-2019 at 04:27 PM

The N-zis were followed by neo-N-zis.

The imperialists/missionaries were followed by the neo-imperialists/missionaries

KurtG - 6-22-2019 at 04:41 PM

An excellent book published by Santa Clara University. All "primary source" material from many points of view of California 1535-1846.
https://www.amazon.com/Lands-Promise-Despair-Chronicles-Cali...

And another: https://www.amazon.com/Converting-California-Indians-Francis...

[Edited on 6-22-2019 by KurtG]

TMW - 6-22-2019 at 04:44 PM

Go anywhere in the world and ask anyone where Americans live and they will tell you the United States. Not Canada, not Mexico or any other Central American country or any South American country just the USA plain and simple. You can try and justify other countries all you want but everyone knows who you are talking about when you say American.

GED do you ID yourself as a Canadian or an American. Mexicans ID themselves as Mexicans, Panamanians ID themselves as Panamanians, etc etc. Goat and JJJ just ID themselves as stupid. I have never ID'd myself as a USAian.

TMW - 6-22-2019 at 04:49 PM

By the way any bells removed can be sent to me I'll gladly take them.

norte - 6-22-2019 at 04:49 PM

Quote: Originally posted by TMW  
Go anywhere in the world and ask anyone where Americans live and they will tell you the United States. Not Canada, not Mexico or any other Central American country or any South American country just the USA plain and simple. You can try and justify other countries all you want but everyone knows who you are talking about when you say American.

GED do you ID yourself as a Canadian or an American. Mexicans ID themselves as Mexicans, Panamanians ID themselves as Panamanians, etc etc. Goat and JJJ just ID themselves as stupid. I have never ID'd myself as a USAian.


Exactly...and you are part of the problem. The USA has taken over the word American to the exclusion of everyone else.

4x4abc - 6-22-2019 at 04:55 PM

TOM,

for the first time JJJ and goat were right on.
No rambling - just right on the money.

motoged - 6-22-2019 at 05:10 PM

Quote: Originally posted by TMW  
Go anywhere in the world and ask anyone where Americans live and they will tell you the United States. Not Canada, not Mexico or any other Central American country or any South American country just the USA plain and simple. You can try and justify other countries all you want but everyone knows who you are talking about when you say American.

GED do you ID yourself as a Canadian or an American. Mexicans ID themselves as Mexicans, Panamanians ID themselves as Panamanians, etc etc. Goat and JJJ just ID themselves as stupid. I have never ID'd myself as a USAian.


Tom,
I am not sure your first point is universally true (and doubt you have done such research, but rather make a statement of belief/supposition rather than fact).

I have no idea what you mean when you say I am "justifying other countries".

And I see and tend to identify myself as a Canadian, and recognize Canada as one of several north American countries..... so could call myself a Canadian North American if I want to be more precise.

Goat and JJJ DO NOT identify themselves as stupid.....that identification hobby is only taken up by the usual mouthbreathers here...

And you say "I have never ID'd myself as a USAian".....
I understand that.....but as SF&H said.....you guys need to get your own identity moniker figured out....:biggrin:



[Edited on 6-23-2019 by motoged]

The World History of Colonization ..................

MrBillM - 6-22-2019 at 05:41 PM

.............. Is that (without exception) those Colonized got Screwed.

So What ?

We've moved on.

BTW, Any of those Canuckians, Mexicans, Central and South Americans (along with the various area Island peoples) are free to call themselves Americans if they feel like it. Heck, let the polar *Eskimos on for the ride, too.

It might get a little confusing, but who cares ?

* Yeah, yeah, I know .............. they're into Inuit now.

motoged - 6-22-2019 at 05:45 PM

Quote: Originally posted by MrBillM  
.............. Canuckians......


Spoken like a true Murikan :biggrin:


....and they have always called themselves Inuit..... others came up with the Eskimo moniker

[Edited on 6-23-2019 by motoged]

Ya Gotta Admit .................

MrBillM - 6-22-2019 at 06:02 PM

That Inuit Pie just wouldn't have the same zing.

John Harper - 6-22-2019 at 06:57 PM

What about NATIVE Americans?

John

MMc - 6-22-2019 at 07:02 PM

History is written by the winners, it has never been true. Let the bells stand. Change the narrative of the bells.

David K - 6-22-2019 at 07:12 PM

Quote: Originally posted by John Harper  
What about NATIVE Americans?

John


I live near several Indian Nations (formerly known only as Reservations), and they are doing great... Big hotels, water parks, and casinos, casinos, casinos! Pala, Pauma Valley, Rincon, Valley View (San Pasqual Band of Indians), La Jolla, Pechanga... and many more.

EDIT to ADD THIS LINK:

https://www.californiafrontier.net/why-did-native-americans-...




This is from an author of Alta California Mission History.

[Edited on 6-24-2019 by David K]

motoged - 6-22-2019 at 07:19 PM

Quote: Originally posted by David K  


I live near several Indian Nations (formerly known only as Reservations), and they are doing great... Big hotels, water parks, and casinos, casinos, casinos! Pala, Pauma Valley, Rincon, Valley View (San Pasqual Band of Indians), La Jolla, Pechanga... and many more.



So........what is your point? :?:

Native Americans AREN'T

MrBillM - 6-22-2019 at 07:21 PM

WHATEVER the land was called by whomever, it wasn't named America.

motoged - 6-22-2019 at 07:21 PM

Quote: Originally posted by MrBillM  
That Inuit Pie just wouldn't have the same zing.


unuit.....





translation for some of you: you-knew-it :biggrin:

JoeJustJoe - 6-22-2019 at 07:21 PM

Quote: Originally posted by MrBillM  
.............. Is that (without exception) those Colonized got Screwed.

So What ?

We've moved on.



Maybe you came to the debate late, MrBill, but I doubt it's settled for everybody here that those colonized got screwed.

There are some actually here on "Baja Nomad" that actually believe the Catholic priests of the Franciscan order actually did a good thing and brought structure, order, and Christianity to heathen indigenous natives. These types also believe if any abuse too place, it was at the hands of the Spaniard military, but the priests were basically the good guys who tried to stop the military from abusing the Indians.

Along the same lines, if you saw the Mel Gipson, racist movie," Apocalypto," which denigrated the Mayan culture. ( yeah I still enjoyed the fiction movie)

If you remember the ending of the movie, with the Spanish coming carrying the cross. I bet the majority of white Christians in America, saw that as a good thing, while the rest of us who saw the movie were horrified because we knew the real history.



UN, IN or OUT

MrBillM - 6-22-2019 at 07:24 PM

Is what IT's all about ?

Or is that the Hokey-Pokey ?

As to the Christian order ..................... didn't Jesus say "thou can't make an omelette without breaking legs ?"

Or, something like that.

Maybe, it was Jose ?

Jimenez ?

[Edited on 6-23-2019 by MrBillM]

mtgoat666 - 6-22-2019 at 10:12 PM

Quote: Originally posted by 4x4abc  
Quote: Originally posted by David K  


I live near several Indian Nations (formerly known only as Reservations), and they are doing great... Big hotels, water parks, and casinos, casinos, casinos! Pala, Pauma Valley, Rincon, Valley View (San Pasqual Band of Indians), La Jolla, Pechanga... and many more.


those Indian Nations are not doing great because they have been treated well by the people who stole most of their land.
They are not doing great because they had great schools and education.
They are not doing great because they enjoyed the same social support the invaders did.

They doing OK at the moment because of white Jewish/Christian investors. The big bucks are still going to the ones who have already too much.


Those tribe are doing well ($) cause they got a casino near a big population of suckers!

[Edited on 6-23-2019 by mtgoat666]

[Edited on 6-26-2019 by BajaNomad]

caj13 - 6-23-2019 at 06:37 AM

Wow! David, could you perhaps take a bit of your "research" time and look into the current condition of native Americans cultures , and the policies and procedures that lead to those conditions! Your willful ignorance of a true American Made genocide, is unbelievable!

I owe you a book David: Pm me an address, I will send you
"when the Great Spirit died: the destruction of California Indians 1850 - 1860, by G. Seacrest. easily read well documented historical account. and there are several other books covering similar topics.
as one who apparently fancies himself as a historian, i would assume any more "historical knowledge you can add to your knowledge pool will give you better context!

Those who forget history are doomed to repeat it! george santayana (paraphrased to the most common modern version)

bajaric - 6-23-2019 at 07:29 AM

I do not agree with the characterization that the Indigenous people of Baja were "Enslaved" by the missionaries. Closer to the truth is that they were "Enticed", by pozole, a soup made of corn. The Padres were few in number and could not have forced the conversion of thousands of Indians. They came willingly. Indeed, the Jesuits were a model of restraint compared to the conquistadores, who did enslave the natives, working them to death in silver mines and setting dogs upon them to tear them to pieces if they resisted. The Spaniards, the Russians, the Dutch, and the rest were the slave masters, not the Padres. Had it not been for the disease that decimated their numbers the indigenous people of Baja would have been fine compared to the fate of their brethren in the rest of the new world. OF course, if the Europeans never arrived they would have continued their existence unmolested, foraging naked for cactus fruit, but that is a moot point. The European colonization of the new world would have happened one way or another. Its seeds were planted 2,000 years earlier when civilization began to develop in the middle east and people adopted agriculture and domesticated the horse, the cow, and the pig, as was explained in the book Guns Germs and Steel.

JoeJustJoe - 6-23-2019 at 12:04 PM

Quote: Originally posted by David K  


I live near several Indian Nations (formerly known only as Reservations), and they are doing great... Big hotels, water parks, and casinos, casinos, casinos! Pala, Pauma Valley, Rincon, Valley View (San Pasqual Band of Indians), La Jolla, Pechanga... and many more.


I can't believe David K. really said this above!

Not only would most California Indian Casinos, like Pachanga, disagree with the myth that the Spanish Missionaries were beneficial to their tribes. ( see quotes below)

But it's well know that despite the all the Indian casinos in the US, most of the Indian tribes without casinos, are living in poverty, because the tribes are only sharing with their own select tribes, and in fact many tribes have engaged in disenrolled of their tribal members because of pure greed, and tribal sovereignty, that allows them to skirt many US Federal laws.

All boats are not lifted because of the Indian Casino, although a handful of tribal members do very very well.
______________________

Myth: Interactions between the Spanish Missionaries and Payômkawichum "Western People" were intended as beneficial.

Fact: In 1798 Spanish Missionaries founded the Mission of San Luis Rey de Francia, dramatically altering our tribal life, pressing Pechanga people into servitude, slavery and imprisonment. The Roman Catholic Church established ranchos that encompassed the native villages and pressed our people into serving the mission.

4x4abc - 6-23-2019 at 12:43 PM

let me try again:

those Indian Nations are not doing great because they have been treated well by the people who stole most of their land.
They are not doing great because they had great schools and education.
They are not doing great because they enjoyed the same social support the invaders did.

They doing OK at the moment because of white Jewish/Christian investors. The big bucks are still going to the ones who have already too much.

motoged - 6-24-2019 at 06:17 AM

Quote: Originally posted by 4x4abc  
......
They doing OK at the moment because of white Jewish/Christian investors......


Hmmmmm....what evidence do you have to back that up????

Casinos tend to do well because folks of various ethnicities/faiths are greedy and want money....so they pour money into machines and gaming tables....

Are those the people you call investors?

SFandH - 6-24-2019 at 09:24 AM

Quote: Originally posted by motoged  

...but as SF&H said.....you guys need to get your own identity moniker figured out....:biggrin:



I didn't say that, you did. The names America and "American" are used around the world for the US and its citizens.

I watch the BBC news. Their newscasters frequently use the name America. And, I just heard Iranian lawmakers shout "Death to America" on TV. Perhaps send them an email explaining you're offended.

The name "United States" is better IMHO.



[Edited on 6-24-2019 by SFandH]

motoged - 6-24-2019 at 12:59 PM

Too bad the page layout has been disrupted somehow...

My point is simply that "America" refers to a large amount of geography......not just the USA.....and I hope that some folks could appreciate that .

SFandH - 6-24-2019 at 01:21 PM

I think everybody understands that.

Someone once wrote: "What's in a name? That which we call a rose
By any other name would smell as sweet."

Or, in more modern parlance, "It's not a big effing deal."

del mar - 6-24-2019 at 02:56 PM

Quote: Originally posted by SFandH  
I think everybody understands that.

Someone once wrote: "What's in a name? That which we call a rose
By any other name would smell as sweet."

Or, in more modern parlance, "It's not a big effing deal."


exactly. google "america meaning" and seems like like most folks correlate it with "united states", say is there a bank of america in canada?

JoeJustJoe - 6-24-2019 at 03:27 PM

Seems like a few here are into American exceptionalism, thinking, when people are the world, think of American, they think of the United States.

Really?

Maybe, they think of the US, when people mention America, because people in the US call themselves Americans. In Mexico, and Canada, the citizens in those countries call themselves either Mexicans, or Canadians.

I'm sorry the world doesn't revolve around the US or Americans.

DianaT - 6-24-2019 at 03:33 PM

Quote: Originally posted by David K  

The book does not make any judgements or support any religion. That is up to the reader. I only wanted to present the facts as best we know them. I do not tell the reader how they should feel or think.
Data not propaganda.


Data is to history as location is to geography. They are a very small part of these disciplines---- they are only one possible framework upon which the historical or geographical story can be built. And even what appears to be facts or data is subject to interpretation and perspective as are maps.

[Edited on 6-24-2019 by DianaT]

TMW - 6-24-2019 at 03:41 PM

Well I have not been to every country in the world I have only been to France, Germany, Hong Kong, Japan, the Philippines and Saint Thomas Virgin Islands and my daughter in law is from Panama and every where I've been when you ask them where Americans come from they say the USA. Ask any of the migrants coming up from Central America where they are going and they will tell you they want to go to America, meaning the USA. I will bet you that when Karl and Harald came over from Germany to the USA they said they were going to America. Now having said that most people when asked where they are going while heading north to the USA most likely say the states. When one says the states they mean the USA, not the Mexican states or the territories of Canada but the USA.

chew on that a while Goat and JJJ.

ncampion - 6-24-2019 at 03:53 PM

Quote: Originally posted by JoeJustJoe  


I'm sorry the world doesn't revolve around the US or Americans.


Actually it pretty much does.

SFandH - 6-24-2019 at 03:57 PM

J-cubed said:

"I'm sorry the world doesn't revolve around the US or Americans."

He says he doesn't like it when people that are citizens of the United States are called Americans..........and then he does it!



[Edited on 6-24-2019 by SFandH]

4x4abc - 6-24-2019 at 04:10 PM

well, looking from the outside - people from around the world see 3 major groups on the North American Continent. Canadians, Americans, Mexicans.
from the inside out - Canadians refer to themselves as Canadians, Americans as Americans, Mexicans as Mexicans.
There are 20 more countries on the North American Continent - none of them see themselves as Americans.

so, where is the confusion?

chippy - 6-24-2019 at 04:19 PM

Quote: Originally posted by 4x4abc  
well, looking from the outside - people from around the world see 3 major groups on the North American Continent. Canadians, Americans, Mexicans.
from the inside out - Canadians refer to themselves as Canadians, Americans as Americans, Mexicans as Mexicans.
There are 20 more countries on the North American Continent - none of them see themselves as Americans.

so, where is the confusion?





20 more countries on the no american cont? Due tell. Oh I see you are including about 16 Islands? I don´t considered that continent.

[Edited on 6-24-2019 by chippy]

4x4abc - 6-24-2019 at 05:16 PM

you can consider anything you want
make your own world map

fact is the North American Continent has 23 countries

https://www.countries-ofthe-world.com/countries-of-north-ame...

David K - 6-24-2019 at 05:34 PM

Yes, and the United States of America was the first colony to become an independent nation. We made America part of our name first and when the world sees the stars and stripes they call it the American flag.

chippy - 6-24-2019 at 05:59 PM

Quote: Originally posted by 4x4abc  
you can consider anything you want
make your own world map

fact is the North American Continent has 23 countries

https://www.countries-ofthe-world.com/countries-of-north-ame...



Whatever you want to think but



https://simple.wikipedia.org/wiki/Continental_United_States

I dont see any islands.

Since when is an island a continent? Riddle me this.

https://www.dictionary.com/browse/continent

[Edited on 6-25-2019 by chippy]

Bajazly - 6-24-2019 at 06:25 PM

Quote: Originally posted by chippy  

Since when is an island a continent? Riddle me this.

https://www.dictionary.com/browse/continent

[Edited on 6-25-2019 by chippy]


Australia.

SFandH - 6-24-2019 at 06:42 PM

Quote: Originally posted by Bajazly  
Quote: Originally posted by chippy  

Since when is an island a continent? Riddle me this.

https://www.dictionary.com/browse/continent

[Edited on 6-25-2019 by chippy]


Australia.


Antarctica

And US citizens who were born in Antarctica are Antarctic-Americans. It's a small group.

[Edited on 6-25-2019 by SFandH]

David K - 6-25-2019 at 07:38 AM

Nothing is changed, I live in America and I am an American. It could be either the United States of America or the Republic of America. Either way, it is "of America". Sort of like people from the country of the United Kingdom... they call themselves British and not United Kingdomers. The land (island) is Great Britain.

Now, they can even get more localized and say they are English, Welsh, or Scottish. Here, in some states, we can call ourselves Californians, or Zonies (Arizona), or ??

4x4abc - 6-25-2019 at 11:04 AM

why can't we just discuss ideas?
why do some of you have to get personal?

motoged - 6-25-2019 at 11:40 AM

Quote: Originally posted by 4x4abc  
why can't we just discuss ideas?
why do some of you have to get personal?


I came across this article the other day.....about "ideas" and ideals....and it has some bearing on this conversation re: nationalism, political and personal boundaries,and values.

It was written in 1944 by the vice president of the USA, Henry A. Wallace.....

It is worth 5-10 minutes of your time:

https://truthout.org/articles/the-dangers-of-american-fascism/

KurtG - 6-25-2019 at 12:11 PM

Quote: Originally posted by motoged  
Quote: Originally posted by 4x4abc  
why can't we just discuss ideas?
why do some of you have to get personal?


I came across this article the other day.....about "ideas" and ideals....and it has some bearing on this conversation re: nationalism, political and personal boundaries,and values.

It was written in 1944 by the vice president of the USA, Henry A. Wallace.....

It is worth 5-10 minutes of your time:

https://truthout.org/articles/the-dangers-of-american-fascism/

Very timely.

SFandH - 6-25-2019 at 12:36 PM

Quote: Originally posted by 4x4abc  
why can't we just discuss ideas?
why do some of you have to get personal?


I think psychological insecurity is the underlying motivation of people who insult or in someway belittle others.

4x4abc - 6-25-2019 at 03:15 PM



Roosevelt900.jpg - 184kB

Barry A. - 6-25-2019 at 03:53 PM

Quote: Originally posted by 4x4abc  


Wisdom from Elinor Roosvelt

Which probably explains why some (great minds?) are constantly trying to reinvent who we (the USA) are and what we stand for, and impose that on other's (not you, "abc")-----they love new ideas despite the fact that many old ideas really work pretty well, often better than any other ideas from around the world..


Me?? I am a Norte American, and people in other Countries I encounter seem to love that, pretty much. (-:




[Edited on 6-25-2019 by Barry A.]

solosancarlos - 6-25-2019 at 03:57 PM

People are like sheep. Where one goes another will follow. If you want the sheep to go in a particular direction, just bark some assertive sounding nonsense up their asses and watch the results

4x4abc - 6-25-2019 at 04:17 PM

Quote: Originally posted by solosancarlos  
No matter how hard you try, you can't make a stupid person aware of their own stupidity. If you try, the only thing you will succeed in doing is inciting their rage.


classic Dunning/Kruger effect

solosancarlos - 6-25-2019 at 04:19 PM

'tis

Lee - 6-25-2019 at 06:57 PM

“To do is to be.” — Socrates

“To be or not to be.” — Shakespeare

“To be is to do.” — Sartre

“Dooby dooby doo.” — Sinatra

“Yabba dabba doo” — Fred Flinstone

“Dabba dabba doo” — Kate Bush

“Do be a do be.” — Miss Louise, Romper Room

“Scooby-doobee-doo” — Scooby Doo

“Hey-boo-boo” — Yogi Bear

solosancarlos - 6-25-2019 at 07:22 PM

November 3rd, 2020

bajafam - 7-3-2019 at 05:34 PM

Quote: Originally posted by David K  

Now, they can even get more localized and say they are English, Welsh, or Scottish. Here, in some states, we can call ourselves Californians, or Zonies (Arizona), or ??


No one in Arizona says that.

David K - 7-3-2019 at 07:02 PM

Zoner?

BajaTed - 7-3-2019 at 07:44 PM

When you have hatred for something, the result is it enhances your self esteem.
Loop infinite, infinite loop.

bajafam - 7-3-2019 at 07:57 PM

Quote: Originally posted by David K  
Zoner?



Sounds like a derogatory term made up by Southern Californians.

In Arizona, we consider ourselves Arizonans.

Tribal members often times refer to their respective Nations.

KurtG - 7-3-2019 at 08:03 PM

Quote: Originally posted by bajafam  
Quote: Originally posted by David K  
Zoner?



Sounds like a derogatory term made up by Southern Californians.

In Arizona, we consider ourselves Arizonans.

Tribal members often times refer to their respective Nations.


The only place I have heard "Zonies" is in the San Diego beach areas where in late summer about half the license plates seem to be from Arizona.

BajaRat - 7-3-2019 at 08:16 PM

Quote: Originally posted by KurtG  
Quote: Originally posted by bajafam  
Quote: Originally posted by David K  
Zoner?



Sounds like a derogatory term made up by Southern Californians.

In Arizona, we consider ourselves Arizonans.

Tribal members often times refer to their respective Nations.


The only place I have heard "Zonies" is in the San Diego beach areas where in late summer about half the license plates seem to be from Arizona.



The sad part is most self-important "Californian locals" were not even

born there. It's that attitude and those folks that have driven many of us

away to cooler pastures

Lionel :cool:

David K - 7-3-2019 at 08:37 PM

I don't care what people like to be known as but it is nice to know what the names are. I was born a Californian.

mtgoat666 - 7-3-2019 at 09:30 PM

Quote: Originally posted by KurtG  
Quote: Originally posted by bajafam  
Quote: Originally posted by David K  
Zoner?



Sounds like a derogatory term made up by Southern Californians.

In Arizona, we consider ourselves Arizonans.

Tribal members often times refer to their respective Nations.


The only place I have heard "Zonies" is in the San Diego beach areas where in late summer about half the license plates seem to be from Arizona.


I wish the Zonies would stay home and stop crowding our local (San Diego) beaches...
Build THE WALL along the the Colorado river!

willardguy - 7-3-2019 at 10:47 PM

Quote: Originally posted by mtgoat666  
Quote: Originally posted by KurtG  
Quote: Originally posted by bajafam  
Quote: Originally posted by David K  
Zoner?



Sounds like a derogatory term made up by Southern Californians.

In Arizona, we consider ourselves Arizonans.

Tribal members often times refer to their respective Nations.


The only place I have heard "Zonies" is in the San Diego beach areas where in late summer about half the license plates seem to be from Arizona.


I wish the Zonies would stay home and stop crowding our local (San Diego) beaches...
Build THE WALL along the the Colorado river!



I wish San Diegan's would stay home and stop crowding our local(baja) beaches!:coolup:

BajaMama - 7-4-2019 at 06:28 AM

Humanity is evolving - to erase the past is wrong, as is vilifying those who behaved in accordance with their place in history. Current society tends to interpret the past through evolved eyes and IMHO that is just wrong. I choose to appreciate the humanitarian steps we have taken forward and the lessons we learned from what we now know was wrong and inhumane in the past.

motoged - 7-4-2019 at 06:59 AM

Removing some historical artifacts doesn't necessarily "erase the past"....but may create a different context for the article(s)....

Yes ....we need to understand history....and hopefully learn from it...

Not a lot of statues honouring A. Hitler are dotting public places....but there is certainly a lot of knowledge acknowledging his place in history....

Unfortunately, there are those who will glorify the inglorious...

David K - 7-4-2019 at 07:06 AM

Quote: Originally posted by BajaMama  
Humanity is evolving - to erase the past is wrong, as is vilifying those who behaved in accordance with their place in history. Current society tends to interpret the past through evolved eyes and IMHO that is just wrong. I choose to appreciate the humanitarian steps we have taken forward and the lessons we learned from what we now know was wrong and inhumane in the past.


Well said BajaMama.

How does removing old things make history change? History is what happened, good and bad... learn from it. If someone gets their feeling hurt because a bell causes them to think about something bad that they read, well Buttercup, life is going to be a rough ride for you! LOL

As a history author, I do not write about the missions because I supported anything they did. I write about them because they existed. They are a fact of history and we can see many of them to this day. The decorative bells along California's Highway 101 and El Camino Real route were the idea of Mrs. Forbes in 1906. Women's groups in California preserved the mission history so it would not be lost to the elements.
You can't learn from history if you remove the history!

motoged - 7-4-2019 at 07:30 AM

Quote: Originally posted by David K  
...

How does removing old things make history change? ....


It doesn't change history....but may help us understand it differently. Don't be threatened by critical thinking....

:light:

noun: critical thinking

the objective analysis and evaluation of an issue in order to form a judgment.

Skipjack Joe - 7-4-2019 at 07:44 AM

Why remove just the bells? Remove the missions, which were the source of the injustice. But that's not enough either. Remove Catholicism, for the missionaries came to spread the word of God. And so on.

History is a recording of a series of conquests from the beginnings of man. Each conquest brings new cultural values and keeps some old ones. The Celts don't request that everything be removed on the United Kingdom for the last 2000 years because they were there originally.

I say keep the bells. Yes there was injustice. It's time to move on. Removing the bells won't right the wrong, which is what they really want. The symbols of the conquest are everywhere. The removal of cultural symbols can be endless. At some point it's time to accept and adapt.

AKgringo - 7-4-2019 at 07:47 AM

Wishful thinking; A verb modified by an adverb.....often mistaken for "critical thinking".

Ged. I hope your sense of humor is still intact! :D

caj13 - 7-4-2019 at 08:56 AM

Quote: Originally posted by David K  
Quote: Originally posted by BajaMama  
Humanity is evolving - to erase the past is wrong, as is vilifying those who behaved in accordance with their place in history. Current society tends to interpret the past through evolved eyes and IMHO that is just wrong. I choose to appreciate the humanitarian steps we have taken forward and the lessons we learned from what we now know was wrong and inhumane in the past.


Well said BajaMama.

How does removing old things make history change? History is what happened, good and bad... learn from it. If someone gets their feeling hurt because a bell causes them to think about something bad that they read, well Buttercup, life is going to be a rough ride for you! LOL

As a history author, I do not write about the missions because I supported anything they did. I write about them because they existed. They are a fact of history and we can see many of them to this day. The decorative bells along California's Highway 101 and El Camino Real route were the idea of Mrs. Forbes in 1906. Women's groups in California preserved the mission history so it would not be lost to the elements.
You can't learn from history if you remove the history!

Just to be clear, I for one never advocated removing the Bells. I instead called for the addition of large signs and historical locations that INCLUDE the statistics of native americans enslaved, and killed! Lets tell the whole story - Killed because their God was not as important as the spaniards god!

I vote we all chip in to put up a big bronze statue of Hitler in Davids front yard! He ought to be honored to be part of honoring and preserving that history!

[Edited on 7-4-2019 by caj13]

motoged - 7-4-2019 at 09:53 AM

Quote: Originally posted by AKgringo  
Wishful thinking; A verb modified by an adverb.....often mistaken for "critical thinking".

Ged. I hope your sense of humor is still intact! :D


Gary,
Yep....it's intact.....and waiting for something funny....:lol:

Give Bailey a hug for me....

JoeJustJoe - 7-4-2019 at 10:08 AM

Quote: Originally posted by caj13  


Just to be clear, I for one never advocated removing the Bells. I instead called for the addition of large signs and historical locations that INCLUDE the statistics of native americans enslaved, and killed! Lets tell the whole story - Killed because their God was not as important as the spaniards god!

I vote we all chip in to put up a big bronze statue of Hitler in Davids front yard! He ought to be honored to be part of honoring and preserving that history!

[Edited on 7-4-2019 by caj13]


So well said, Caj13, but I say all those kinds of symbols of hate that are about Hitler, Robert E Lee, the El Camino Bell, and other even people or symbols be removed from public places, where they often give a false impression of something positive about history and moved to a place like a museum where those hate symbols or persons can get a proper view in their correct historical context of hate.

Some of those early missions that are too hard to relocate should be made into a small memorials and museum similar to Auschwitz to let the world know what really happened to the genocide of the native population of Indians.

I'm not naming names but there are probably some here on "Baja Nomad" that are confused that believe what the Spanish priests did to the indigenous Indians in early California, and Mexico, was overall beneficial to the Indians the same way some believe slavery was good for blacks in America.

David K - 7-4-2019 at 10:28 AM

It happened. Preserving history is not giving a pass to atrocities. However, as one who was interested in getting the facts rather than just go along with your groupthink, you need to direct your anger on the government of Spain in the 1700s for how they demanded what was done, particularly after they removed the Jesuits.

motoged - 7-4-2019 at 10:49 AM

Quote: Originally posted by David K  
..... just go along with your groupthink, ....


And....your "groupthink" is....?

Some here are not suggesting removing history....just accurately reporting it....

And history is not just about conquests as another Nomad said....it's about what happened....."conquests" always have the vanquished :light:

BajaRat - 7-4-2019 at 10:49 AM

Quote: Originally posted by mtgoat666  
Quote: Originally posted by KurtG  
Quote: Originally posted by bajafam  
Quote: Originally posted by David K  
Zoner?



Sounds like a derogatory term made up by Southern Californians.

In Arizona, we consider ourselves Arizonans.

Tribal members often times refer to their respective Nations.


The only place I have heard "Zonies" is in the San Diego beach areas where in late summer about half the license plates seem to be from Arizona.


I wish the Zonies would stay home and stop crowding our local (San Diego) beaches...
Build THE WALL along the the Colorado river!
That's the entitled attitude that has driven many of us away from California.

With supremacist ideas and statements like that you have brought this conversation

back around to what is at the root of this post. Covetousness, when self-entitled,

self-important people feel their beliefs give them rights over others possesions

and souls. Amazing how we make crap up to suit our own narrative.

Silly Rabbits, Tricks are for Kids. You Hypocrites have lost your world travel privileges

Stay home and enjoy Your Filthy Beaches !

Lionel :cool:

[Edited on 7-4-2019 by BajaRat]

JoeJustJoe - 7-4-2019 at 10:57 AM

Quote: Originally posted by David K  
It happened. Preserving history is not giving a pass to atrocities. However, as one who was interested in getting the facts rather than just go along with your groupthink, you need to direct your anger on the government of Spain in the 1700s for how they demanded what was done, particularly after they removed the Jesuits.


The question is whose rose-colored glasses are you looking through to get your so-called facts?

I would bet the farm you aren't getting any of your information from native Indian sources but mostly you are looking at one-sided accounts from such things as diaries of the priests, who admit they are not perfect, and maybe admit to some abuse and evil thoughts, which later they punished themselves with self-flagellation, which is really sick sado-masochism, but overall they believe they are doing the work of God.






Skipjack Joe - 7-4-2019 at 11:05 AM

Quote: Originally posted by JoeJustJoe  


Some of those early missions that are too hard to relocate should be made into a small memorials and museum similar to Auschwitz to let the world know what really happened to the genocide of the native population of Indians.



You're out of your mind.

Comparing a church to Auschwitz? What's wrong with you. No Mexican I know, those you purport to support, would agree with that.

SFandH - 7-4-2019 at 11:18 AM

But genocide might be the correct term. The young state of CA in the 1850s paid a bounty on Indians. Of course, bringing into town a bunch of dead bodies to collect your reward was difficult so scalps and heads were accepted, easier to transport. Spaniards, then Mexicans, and finally Americans wiped these folks out. The missions were the beginning of the end.

I understand the survivor's descendant's bitterness.



[Edited on 7-4-2019 by SFandH]

JoeJustJoe - 7-4-2019 at 11:36 AM

Quote: Originally posted by Skipjack Joe  


You're out of your mind.

Comparing a church to Auschwitz? What's wrong with you. No Mexican I know, those you purport to support, would agree with that.


Skipjack Joe, the church we are talking about was not Sunday School, for the natives.

Oh no don't bring up some of those Jewish and right-wing attacks, for daring to use a Auschwitz, to compare what the priests did to the natives. I doubt any Mexican would care about my comparison.

They tried to do that to Ocasio-Cortez, when she compared the migrants camps in the US to concentration camps in Germany.

I have never seen such fake outrage in my life, and Ocasio-Cortez, made a good comparison when we see locked up migrants women and children forced to drink toilet water in those cages the US Government put up for the migrants.


David K - 7-4-2019 at 11:45 AM

Again, the evil is with government (California state to Spanish kingdom) and not so much the religious men who wanted to improve life and bring more into the faith. Especially true of the Jesuits over those who replaced them.
Right or wrong by today's standards, but I only am trying to accurately report on the known history and not cherry-pick parts of it for some kind of political outcome.

So Sad !

MrBillM - 7-4-2019 at 12:02 PM

Too bad.

It was wrong, but they're gone.

While we ponder events back yonder ................ those hacked and sacked won't be back.

And those to blame have ended their game.

Why make such a fuss ? It's the past and it ain't us.

They're all dead. Put it to bed.

Tóg go bog é.



caj13 - 7-4-2019 at 12:18 PM

Quote: Originally posted by David K  
Again, the evil is with government (California state to Spanish kingdom) and not so much the religious men who wanted to improve life and bring more into the faith. Especially true of the Jesuits over those who replaced them.
Right or wrong by today's standards, but I only am trying to accurately report on the known history and not cherry-pick parts of it for some kind of political outcome.


Cut the crap David, give us some credit, you proclaiming that you are not "cherry - Picking for some Political outcome" is completely disingenous . You know, it , and the rest of us know it too. So climb down off that High Horse, and deal with real facts, and your true bias and motivation.

You understand Hitler considered himself religious, and he was all about making the world a better place, by eliminating people he considered inferior - right?

Aushwitz is a fitting memorial to WWII. Going there is an experience you will never forget, and it changes your persepective - to the core!

A statue to Hitler is certainly not a fitting memorial!

Warp your mind David - see if you can make the connection!

[Edited on 7-4-2019 by caj13]
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