BajaNomad - Ethanol vs Non-Ethanol Gasoline

Ethanol vs Non-Ethanol Gasoline

RnR - 7-3-2019 at 09:57 PM

There have been numerous comments and discussions over the years about the fuel mileage of ethanol blend fuel in the US vs non-ethanol fuel in Mexico. Some comparisons have been made but direct comparisons are difficult because driving conditions vary between the US and Mexico.

Well, here is somebody's chance to make a direct comparison on US highways under controlled conditions.

I was at a Maverick's fuel station in Carson City, NV and noticed that the pumps have three different colored hoses rather than the usual two. A black hose and nozzle for ethanol blended regular/mid/premium gasoline. A green hose and nozzle for diesel. And a bright blue hose and nozzle for "Clear Gas". An ethanol free gasoline!

Prices were $2.99/gal for 87 octane regular vs $3.39 for 87 octane "Clear Gas". A 13% premium for the non-ethanol fuel.

So, here is somebody's chance to provide a definitive comparison between the two fuels. Any takers?

And, if the "Clear Gas" does provide better mileage, is it 13% better and thus a better deal?

(I would do it myself but my truck is a "green" hose only, diesel vehicle. FYI - diesel was $2.96/gal)

Let's put the ethanol/non-ethanol debate to rest once and for all.

willardguy - 7-3-2019 at 10:40 PM

rather than discuss mpg how about a cleaner burning fuel? mexico allows 6% ethanol hoping to up it to 10%, I believe mexico's ethanol's would be cane sugar rather than corn. maybe not so much baja but mainland (mexico city particularly) have a huge air quality issue, we know ethanol robs us of a couple mpg's but there's a bigger fish to fry?

mtgoat666 - 7-3-2019 at 10:45 PM

E10 get has a 3% efficiency drop. Not worth worrying about.
I like clean air.

mjs - 7-4-2019 at 06:38 AM

Ethanol was mandated to decrease dependency on foreign oil, not for clean air. All cars will pass emission requirements using either type of fuel.

David K - 7-4-2019 at 06:52 AM

Compared to driving in California, I get 1-2 more MPG in Baja... and that is a heavy-loaded truck, driving fast, compared to unloaded here.
Ethanol is BAD for the gasoline engine, too. That's not me, that's my mechanic's opinion. I record my mileage at nearly every fill-up here and in Baja. The only thing that lowers mileage in Baja is when I am in 4WD or the pumps at Pemex stations are rigged. The Mulegé station (south of town) is one of the highly rigged stations.

PaulW - 7-4-2019 at 07:21 AM

I think MJS is correct.
What I know
* 3% is the decrease in MPG (E10). It is real science.
* Ethanol added to unleaded can actually increase horsepower for modern fuel injection motors.
* Add Ethanol to unleaded gasoline increases the cost to the consumer. Certain states in the corn belt force alcohol added to fuel to cost less than pure unleaded. (Their tax dollars at work).
* Testing the fuel out of the pump usually results is less ethanol than pump sticker (Probably to make the gas more profitable).
* There are studies that conclude that contaminating unleaded gasoline actually is bad for the environment.
* Subsidies to produce and put Alcohol in unleaded gasoline will keep the stuff around for a long time.
* Farm aid is the primary reason ethanol in the fuel will stay for a long time.
* Did you know that the EPA actually tells certain locations that they do not need to use alcohol in fuel because bad air is not present for that specific location. I live in one of those locations and our fuel does not have alcohol. Despite some stations still sell alcohol added to fuel to accommodate outspoken environmentalists. This requires shopping around to get the good gas and to save money at the pump.

Timinator - 7-4-2019 at 07:24 AM

How much real gas does it cost to generate a gallon of ethanol? That's the question you need to ask.

PaulW - 7-4-2019 at 07:33 AM

David, something else we have found is that the pure unleaded fuel sold in BC has higher octane than typical pure unleaded in the states. Significantly better than the alcohol added to unleaded in CA. Should help the comparable MPG a bit.
Cannot get accurate analysis due to inaccurate BC pumps.

David K - 7-4-2019 at 09:00 AM

One thing is clear, corn should be used for food, not automotive fuel. It may have been a temporary solution to a fuel shortage, but thanks to new science (fracking) we no longer are dependent on imported oil!

As electric cars become more efficient and affordable, that will change the dynamic some. I am concerned as to how much more gas/oil/coal/uranium is needed to recharge these electric cars. Only hydro-electric, or the very limited solar & wind sources, don't pollute.

caj13 - 7-4-2019 at 09:11 AM

Quote: Originally posted by mjs

Ethanol was mandated to decrease dependency on foreign oil, not for clean air. All cars will pass emission requirements using either type of fuel.

Not completely accurate . Alcohol was introduced as a replacement for MTBE. MTBE was to boost octane, unfortunately, it was highly water soluable, and lead to contamination of ground water. So it was banned in California NY etc, and has been drastically reduced across the USA.

The alcohol had the added benefit of boosting corn farmers profits

willardguy - 7-4-2019 at 09:37 AM

Quote: Originally posted by caj13

Quote: Originally posted by mjs

Ethanol was mandated to decrease dependency on foreign oil, not for clean air. All cars will pass emission requirements using either type of fuel.

in the 90's when mexico city had the worse air quality in the world MTBE was added and made a huge impact on air quality......clean water or air, guess you can't have both?
anyway the lobbyist will win, corn or sugar cane, ethanol is on its way

[Edited on 7-4-2019 by willardguy]

thebajarunner - 7-4-2019 at 10:22 AM

One big drawback with ethanol is that it has a severe drying effect on the gaskets and seals of your engine
Newer models have compensated for this, probably not an issue.
But if you have a "classic" muscle car beware.
Jay Leno wrote a long and very interesting article in Autoweek last year lamenting the destructive effect of ethanol gas on his car collection. He warned that you must seek traditional fuel if you want a big V8 from the 50's or 60"s to live very long.
Same applies to your older lawn equipment, although the new generation of battery operated lawn gear is amazing.

Speaking of gas prices in BC
We were up there a few weeks ago and found BC gas was a bit higher than California (that was before the latest gas tax ripoff jammed down our throats this week)
However, over in Alberta the gas was way cheaper than BC
We got gas in Jasper and Banff for a buck a gallon cheaper than BC, I was surprised.
Much cheaper than California (everywhere is cheaper than California.... we need those high taxes to fix roads, which sadly never get fixed, no matter how high the taxes go)

mtgoat666 - 7-4-2019 at 10:36 AM

Quote: Originally posted by caj13

Quote: Originally posted by mjs

Ethanol was mandated to decrease dependency on foreign oil, not for clean air. All cars will pass emission requirements using either type of fuel.

So much mis-information in this thread.
MTBE and ethanol were/are added per regulations because they are oxygenates and cause more complete combustion, so decreased emissions (primarily decrease in CO), and improve air quality.
Ethanol addition also boosts octane, so they can use a lower octane gasoline and addition of ethanol boosts octane up to meet spec.

What’s wrong with farmers making a living? You prefer that only petroleum producers make a living?

Timinator - 7-4-2019 at 11:07 AM

I only run Sunoco in my older vehicles and any and all little motors; mowers, chain saws, etc. 100% dead dino's. Good stuff. My old BMW 2002 wouldn't run right at all with any gas/ethanol mix.

Lovers of ethanol will dodge the question I raised above. "how much real gas does it take to make a gallon of ethanol?" You want to ruin your day, look it up.

It's a loser

SFandH - 7-4-2019 at 12:59 PM

Quote: Originally posted by Timinator

Lovers of ethanol will dodge the question I raised above. "how much real gas does it take to make a gallon of ethanol?" You want to ruin your day, look it up.

"about 70 percent more energy is required to produce ethanol than the energy that actually is in ethanol. Every time you make 1 gallon of ethanol, there is a net energy loss of 54,000 Btu."

https://www.organicconsumers.org/scientific/70-percent-more-...

Timinator - 7-5-2019 at 10:32 AM

Yea, doesn't fit the liberal agenda very well. They'll stay well clear of this thread now.

David K - 7-5-2019 at 10:43 AM

:light:

Thanks for the smile, Timinator!

SFandH - 7-5-2019 at 11:14 AM

Liberal?

"Bush called for an almost fivefold increase in the production of ethanol and other alternative fuels to supplement gasoline over the next decade.

"His speech called for a dramatic shift in 10 years, and corn-based ethanol will make up the lion's share of the 35 BGY."

BGY = billion gallons per year

https://www.farmprogress.com/blogs-bush-pushbiofuels-in-stat...

BajaTed - 7-5-2019 at 11:40 AM

My race car uses race fuel @ 110 octane, NO performance gain whatsoever, BUT it runs as cool as a cucumber under full power conditions all day long. The fuel is burned in the combustion chamber much quicker and more efficiently. An internal combustion engine has to deal with this thermodynamic efficiency factor.
BTW, I.C. fuel is created also by the largest industrial bottleneck in the U.S. economy; Gasoline Refineries.

An electric vehicle doesn't care where the KW's came from.
Palm Springs is full of Tesla's that charge off the solar panels and wind generators for almost free, please research Time Of Use (TOU) electric rates, ROI on solar & wind as compared to the cost of taxed Gasoline with an eternally shrinking market

Timinator - 7-7-2019 at 06:17 AM

I get a giant "Woops" error to your article. It's gone or never was. Was is Bush who called for it, or the Dem's who passed the Bill and made him sign it like they did with the bail out for all their buddies. You remember, the Democrat Housing Crisis, right?

[Edited on 7-7-2019 by Timinator]

SFandH - 7-7-2019 at 06:32 AM

https://www.farmprogress.com/blogs-bush-pushes-biofuels-in-s...

Timinator - 7-7-2019 at 06:38 AM

Quote: Originally posted by SFandH

Liberal?

"Bush called for an almost fivefold increase in the production of ethanol and other alternative fuels to supplement gasoline over the next decade.

"His speech called for a dramatic shift in 10 years, and corn-based ethanol will make up the lion's share of the 35 BGY."

BGY = billion gallons per year

https://www.farmprogress.com/blogs-bush-pushbiofuels-in-stat...

I just looked up an article with a real link, it was House Democrats in 2005 who pushed the Ethanol hoax and forced Bush. Again, the liberal lie. However, it has been used by both Party's for political gain since then, but ethanol is a lie and a net loss. No lie.

SFandH - 7-7-2019 at 06:44 AM

Quote: Originally posted by Timinator

Quote: Originally posted by SFandH

Liberals forced Bush to tout biofuels in his State of Union address? Naw.

"President George W. Bush again took the opportunity to tout biofuels in his annual State of the Union Address this year."

https://www.farmprogress.com/blogs-bush-pushes-biofuels-in-s...

[Edited on 7-7-2019 by SFandH]