The 1962 & 1955 AAA BAJA MAP Discussion

Quote: Originally posted by 4x4abc

that only brings up more questions on today's map where would Rancho Las Delicias and Rancho Santa Lucia be?

1962 Lower California Guidebook

Howard Gulick's map does not have either ranch shown:

On the 1930 map is Rancho Las Delicias (but not Santa Lucia):

On the 1941 map is Santa Lucia, but not Las Delicias:

The 1958 Shell map has neither:

The 1905 Nelson map (published in 1919) does have a mountain named Santa Lucia in the area. No Delicias near Palo Verde, however.


When Nelson saw the Magdalena ruins near Mulegé, he mistook them to be the Guadalupe mission... and that error is on this map.

[Edited on 7-22-2019 by David K]

Quote: Originally posted by 4x4abc

the location Lucifer shows one of the major mines around Santa Rosalia, In the early years it was a small settlement, like all mines at the time. Later everyone was moved to Santa Rosalia. Rancho Santa Lucia is in the mountains between Santa Rosalia and San Ignacio. Far away from the locations given in the maps. 27°18'39.89"N, 112°34'10.57"W it only proves how inaccurate these maps are. They give you a general idea, but rarely a precise location. But they are fun to compare with today's information. Haven't found anything yet on Rancho Las Delicias. It is shown on the west side of the road, so it can't be Palos Verdes.

The rest of the 1962 AAA map...

Quote: Originally posted by David K

In the 1962 AAA guide, Las Delicias is quite the reference, on the main road. The same is mentioned in the 1964, 1966, 1968, & 1971 guides.

The maps of 1962 (AAA and Gulick's) show the Baja California I was so lucky to experience, as we drove south, just three years later, going to Gonzaga Bay, in 1965. In 1966, we drove the Tijuana to Cabo road (taking over 2-weeks) and then up to La Paz via Todos Santos where we boarded the ferry to Mazatlan for a paved return to San Diego.

In those days, Highway 1 pavement ended about 70 miles from Ensenada, north of Colonet. It didn't begin again until about 100 miles north of La Paz. South from La Paz, the pavement ended in 10 miles and the new graded roadbed ended just past San Bartolo.

It was my job to read Gerhard & Gulick's Lower California Guidebook as we passed point mentioned along the way. Perhaps that is why my memory of the trip (and my love of maps and guides) is so strong?


Nice palm tree!

Quote: Originally posted by 4x4abc

Quote: Originally posted by David K   In the 1962 AAA guide, Las Delicias is quite the reference, on the main road. The same is mentioned in the 1964, 1966, 1968, & 1971 guides. Is there a distance given to Las Delicias? That way we could locate the site

Nope... just midway between San Lucas and Loreto... like near where Palo Verde is today. I will scan the page... 1962 edition:





[Edited on 7-23-2019 by David K]

Quote: Originally posted by 4x4abc

I think, I found the location for Rancho Las Delicias called Boca de Magdalena on the INEGI topo 27° 4'37.41"N, 112° 6'55.12"W

you are right, there isn't much left of that Rancho
especially after hurricane Odile

but the 2004 Google image shows what we are looking for:
the old road
the new paved road
a road connecting to Boca de Magdalena
and the ranch is on the west side of the old road!

image also shows significant more vegetation, indicating a source of water

here is another question
how do I locate Rancho Los Angeles?

See the Gulick map. I will give you a Google spot for it later. The old ranch was by the new highway and I noted it in my first logs of '73 and '74.



Now, the Gulick 1962 map with some new roads drawn in:



The 2003 Almanac (Inegi) has it on the other side of the highway:



[Edited on 7-26-2019 by David K]

Howard Gulick photos

Pumping water at Los Angeles, April 20, 1959



Well at Los Angeles, April 20, 1959

1970 Cliff Cross Baja Guide

amazing how much (and how little) Baja has changed

depending on the terrain, a road from 60 years ago may have completely vanished and in some places El Camino Real from 260 years ago is still visible.

But then of course there is the animal factor.
Animals love man made trails - they follow them long after the humans are gone. Plus it may have been an animal trail from the start where the padres laid out their camino.
So, the animal use of today keeps ancient human trails visible.

Or not.
Like many of the bulldozed roads of the early 1900's. They did not follow animal travel routes. Therefore animals today don't not use them and don't keep them visible.

On numerous occasions when I went out to rediscover old roads I follow a clearly visible path for some miles - and then there are bushes and trees everywhere. No more clear path. But looking for strong animal tracks will reveal the path of the old road. Some bush trimming and cactus cutting might be required. But I have always found what I was looking for

see the animal track on this forgotten mining trail?

Sweet ride on the mine road, worth a pretty penny now
Lionel

strong companion

Quote: Originally posted by 4x4abc

amazing how much (and how little) Baja has changed depending on the terrain, a road from 60 years ago may have completely vanished and in some places El Camino Real from 260 years ago is still visible. But then of course there is the animal factor. Animals love man made trails - they follow them long after the humans are gone. Plus it may have been an animal trail from the start where the padres laid out their camino. So, the animal use of today keeps ancient human trails visible. Or not. Like many of the bulldozed roads of the early 1900's. They did not follow animal travel routes. Therefore animals today don't not use them and don't keep them visible. On numerous occasions when I went out to rediscover old roads I follow a clearly visible path for some miles - and then there are bushes and trees everywhere. No more clear path. But looking for strong animal tracks will reveal the path of the old road. Some bush trimming and cactus cutting might be required. But I have always found what I was looking for see the animal track on this forgotten mining trail?

Quote: Originally posted by mtgoat666

Quote: Originally posted by 4x4abc   amazing how much (and how little) Baja has changed depending on the terrain, a road from 60 years ago may have completely vanished and in some places El Camino Real from 260 years ago is still visible. But then of course there is the animal factor. Animals love man made trails - they follow them long after the humans are gone. Plus it may have been an animal trail from the start where the padres laid out their camino. So, the animal use of today keeps ancient human trails visible. Or not. Like many of the bulldozed roads of the early 1900's. They did not follow animal travel routes. Therefore animals today don't not use them and don't keep them visible. On numerous occasions when I went out to rediscover old roads I follow a clearly visible path for some miles - and then there are bushes and trees everywhere. No more clear path. But looking for strong animal tracks will reveal the path of the old road. Some bush trimming and cactus cutting might be required. But I have always found what I was looking for see the animal track on this forgotten mining trail? It is a shame that when nature manages to grow back and cover an old road scar some flock head comes along and slashes brush so he can drink beer in his silly jeep and drive drunk to seek cheap thrills trampling nature and drive his little jeep over bumps to prove his small penis is bigger than it really is.

woohoo friday night and goats on his third amstel light and flexing those beer muscles! what a tool

never forget

Quote: Originally posted by David K

Maps that show roads is the topic. Goat, maps that show brush is a different subject. All the brush goats eat cannot compare to keeping a road clear of brush. Roads can be used to rescue hikers in trouble, too!

Quote: Originally posted by 4x4abc

Quote: Originally posted by David K   Maps that show roads is the topic. Goat, maps that show brush is a different subject. All the brush goats eat cannot compare to keeping a road clear of brush. Roads can be used to rescue hikers in trouble, too! religious people can't be reached with arguments valid for palm trees as well

Quote: Originally posted by 4x4abc

I don't know where this catastrophic sea level change idea is coming from most things in nature happen very very slowly like the temperature is rising very slowly (man made or not aside) that does not translate into a visible sea level change (yet) part of what scientists do is - predict so, IF the temperature keeps rising at the rate it is doing right now then, by 2100, sea levels could have risen by 3 feet all humans make mistakes scientists, too early calculations and predictions were indeed sensational we know today they were way off so, your palm trees will be OK for another few decades, David to use their status to prove that there is no warming trend is ridiculous though

Quote: Originally posted by 4x4abc

I give up

....yup might as well

Quote: Originally posted by del mar

Quote: Originally posted by 4x4abc   I give up ....yup might as well

You can still use him for advice on posting pictures (remember the max width is 1200), and if you don’t feel like buying a map he does provide good reproductions of those copyrighted maps you are too cheap to buy

1955 AAA Map

Since the 1962 map brought so much fun to you guys, let's have a look at the 1955 AAA map. The is does not clearly differentiate between a paved road and a dirt road. The 1951 guidebook has the road paved to Arroyo Grande ('oiled macadam', is how it is worded) which is just north of Colonet. That was the end of pavement throughout the 1960s, as well. The San Felipe road is called "a good oil-mix surface" in 1951. No pavement until the town of La Paz and then dirt again, on south. The 1959 guide says the paving reached 105 miles north from La Paz (about where it was in1966, too).






Despite the Mexico Federal Highway names, these were all dirt roads in 1955. The road south of La Paz was a single lane dirt track, grading began 10 years later.

Quote: Originally posted by 4x4abc

what is the lat long for Seal Rock north of Isla Cerralvo?

Islote de la Reina (Arrecife de la Foca) Seal Rock
has no precise GPS location
Latitude: 24° 26' (24.4333°) north
Longitude: 109° 59' (109.9833°) west
is not precise

all others have resorted to distances given from the most northern point of Isla Cerralvo
4.25 nm, 4 miles and 6.43 km
the coordinates given are 4.57 nm out

I trust 6.43 km the most as it is part of a master thesis at CIB
https://cibnor.repositorioinstitucional.mx/jspui/bitstream/1...

this video shows a ship wreck at the site (6:24)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zFOGIu4TX-4

Quote: Originally posted by David K

Interesting... although no maps from back then show any town midway to Punta Chivato. I hope Harald scouts it out. As for the palm beach; even if no palm was there, the sea has failed to rise higher. Otherwise, that flat area next to the beach would be underwater. The palm is at the top of the beach and high tide has remained below it, since the 1930s. The same is true of all the salt flats... When sea levels do rise any serious amount, they will be underwater, too!

Quote: Originally posted by BigBearRider

There are some ruins of something around San Marcos Tierra, northeast of Palo Verde. I recall seeing what I think were ovens, and a water system. Maybe this was Las Delicias? Also, I understand that Palo Verde, or maybe it was called then San Marcos, moved to its current location many, many years ago. It used to be about halfway to Punta Chivato from where the highway is now. Maybe 40 or 50 years ago? There are still ruins of the old buildings, including the school, in the old location. Some of the locals lived there.

Quote: Originally posted by 4x4abc

didn't you insist on sticking to the 1962 & 1955 AAA BAJA MAP discussion? How do the palm trees fit in - again?

Quote: Originally posted by 4x4abc

Quote: Originally posted by BigBearRider   There are some ruins of something around San Marcos Tierra, northeast of Palo Verde. I recall seeing what I think were ovens, and a water system. Maybe this was Las Delicias? Also, I understand that Palo Verde, or maybe it was called then San Marcos, moved to its current location many, many years ago. It used to be about halfway to Punta Chivato from where the highway is now. Maybe 40 or 50 years ago? There are still ruins of the old buildings, including the school, in the old location. Some of the locals lived there. San Marcos Tierra, like many other developments in the area (San Bruno, San Rafale etc), was a Boleo project to produce food for their workers. Created in the early 1900's. With abundant water under ground, several more farming projects (Pozo Cien, Pozo Noventa y Dos, etc)sprung up with government support in the 1950's Rancho Las Delicias was a small ranch next to the old road (close to the new paved road). It only made it onto the maps because they had water. Palo Verde is a government sponsored settlement that came up in the early 1980's, initially named Ejido San Lucas.

Quote: Originally posted by David K

Science is not about predicting the future, it is studying the evidence. Has any climate change/ sea level prediction made since Al Gore was made god of Global Warming come true? They don't even call it global warming anymore...