BajaNomad - WHO begs world leaders to stop using lockdowns to control virus

Quote: Originally posted by mtgoat666

A pity you visited so many places and did not open your eyes.

214,000+ dead in USA. And red-state USA still rejects masks as some kind of socialist plot.

[Edited on 10-12-2020 by mtgoat666]

How about THAT ?

MrBillM - 10-11-2020 at 08:22 PM

Who Woulda Thunk ?

A MAGATeer holding up the WHO as an authoritative reference.

Rather than part of the One-Worlders International Socialist Conspiracy.

Next thing you know we'll see those Wolverines laying down their arms and coupling with the BLM !

Well, maybe, not.

JZ - 10-11-2020 at 08:43 PM

Who Woulda Thunk ?

A MAGATeer holding up the WHO as an authoritative reference.

Rather than part of the One-Worlders International Socialist Conspiracy.

Next thing you know we'll see those Wolverines laying down their arms and coupling with the BLM !

Well, maybe, not.

I'm no Trump fan boy. And why are you attacking me and not commenting on the message in the op?

surabi - 10-11-2020 at 10:54 PM

JZ, you are an idiot. If the entire world had locked down, closed their borders and mandated mask wearing and distancing back in Feb/March, the virus would have had no one to infect and it would have been beaten within a month or two. Which would have been the best thing for the economies.

But because of wildly divergent approaches all over the world, and dummies who equate being asked to wear a mask for public health reasons with some erosion of their supposedly God-given freedoms and rights, the virus is still raging, still killing people and things "open back up" only to have to close again as infections skyrocket. It's an endless cycle of ignorance and idiocy.

96.65% aren't at risk? That's an unbelievably ignorant statement. EVERYONE is at risk. 20% of those who have tested positive, including those who were totally asymptomatic and 20-30 years old and in perfect health, are now manifesting heart damage, which may very well be permanent. as well as other organ damage.

But you and others of your ilk are obviously a lost cause and will continue to spread this virus around and not give a damn who else you expose to infection.

JZ - 10-12-2020 at 12:39 AM

JZ, you are an idiot. If the entire world had locked down, closed their borders and mandated mask wearing and distancing back in Feb/March, the virus would have had no one to infect and it would have been beaten within a month or two. Which would have been the best thing for the economies.

But because of wildly divergent approaches all over the world, and dummies who equate being asked to wear a mask for public health reasons with some erosion of their supposedly God-given freedoms and rights, the virus is still raging, still killing people and things "open back up" only to have to close again as infections skyrocket. It's an endless cycle of ignorance and idiocy.

96.65% aren't at risk? That's an unbelievably ignorant statement. EVERYONE is at risk. 20% of those who have tested positive, including those who were totally asymptomatic and 20-30 years old and in perfect health, are now manifesting heart damage, which may very well be permanent. as well as other organ damage.

But you and others of your ilk are obviously a lost cause and will continue to spread this virus around and not give a damn who else you expose to infection.

What is your opinion on the guidance from the World Health Organization mentioned in the op?

SunDevil - 10-12-2020 at 04:28 AM

Sweden didn't do lockdowns.

Here is a crazy idea that just might work. If you are interested in learning something, instead of being a know-nothing parrot for some dogma, search online for recent articles about something like "sweden lockdown".

If you feel you have learned something of value then come back and educate us, no preaching please.

caj13 - 10-12-2020 at 05:34 AM

Sweden didn't do lockdowns.

Here is a crazy idea that just might work. If you are interested in learning something, instead of being a know-nothing parrot for some dogma, search online for recent articles about something like "sweden lockdown".

If you feel you have learned something of value then come back and educate us, no preaching please.

Here you go: https://www.nytimes.com/2020/10/12/briefing/coronavirus-los-...

In a nutshell, Sweden's plan was pretty bad, much higher death rates than most other European countries - But, on the plus side, their response was far better than the US plan, when you look at deaths per 1000!

caj13 - 10-12-2020 at 05:46 AM

[
What is your opinion on the guidance from the World Health Organization mentioned in the op?

JZ, please tell me you are not affected with Para disease? You did actually go to the original source and watch the whole interview right?
Or did you just let some right leaning magazine in Australia do the interpretation of the interview?

JZ - 10-12-2020 at 06:02 AM

It's direct quotes from the guy. Listen to the video of him saying it.

And you use the NYT as your source ITT? smh

DouglasP - 10-12-2020 at 06:09 AM

Read this article yesterday, came here to post it and watch heads explode.
Thanks JZ!
As I figured, personal attacks as defense from the mouth breathers, bravo!

Leaving for Punta Chivato next Monday. Viva Mexico!

BajaMama - 10-12-2020 at 06:58 AM

Yep, Sweden did not do lockdowns and their death rate is significantly higher than their surrounding countries. Sweden is not happy with their unfortunate results.

BajaMama - 10-12-2020 at 07:04 AM

The bottom line is, you can live life and do many of the things you used to do as long as you use common sense. Wear a mask, wash your hands, socially distance. If you're young, knock yourselves out and eat and drink indoors. Just stay away from your parents and grandparents. If you're older like me, enjoy outdoor dining on a breezy day. Would I get on an airplane? No. Would I travel to Mexico right now? No. Not because I feel it is unsafe but because the LAW in Mexico says essential travel only and that is likely to continue for months If I did have essential travel to Mexico I sure as hell wouldn't enter a bar or restaurant filled with ugly Americans only there to party and spread their covid to locals who lack the same quality healthcare we do in the USA.

caj13 - 10-12-2020 at 07:17 AM

It's direct quotes from the guy. Listen to the video of him saying it.

And you use the NYT as your source ITT? smh

I actually listened to the whole interview JZ, are you familiar with cherry picking information to support your political agenda? the article does not do a fair job of representing what was said, stuff taken out of context often loses its meaning.

and as for the NYT - as a source, sure - see those graphs, the figures, the numbers, they show where all of that information comes from, so i can track it back to the original source.

Too bad your Au Right wing rag didn't do the same - eh mate!

and BTW - direct quote from the guy - " Nabarro said lockdowns can only be justified "to buy you time to reorganize, regroup, rebalance your resources, protect your health workers who are exhausted. "

thats how lockdowns have been used right? whats the issue here?

the problem is not the "lockdowns" its the idiots who refuse to follow the science and take the precautionary measures we know protects yourself and other individuals. thats when we get superspreader events, as we are all seeing now!

You want to get back to "normal" we need rapid testing and extensive contact tracing - had that been done in March & April, The economy would be in much better shape now, the country would be much more "open" and the deaths would have been much lower.

Thats the bottom line - actions taken, and actions ignored - thats what puts us here in this position. 250,000 dead - that number could have been much lower. I know it doesn't matter to some of you, unless of course you or a loved one is part of the 250,000 - then its a bit different - right!

[Edited on 10-12-2020 by caj13]

apple - 10-12-2020 at 08:01 AM

A group of ppl on here should be utterly ashamed of themselves.
[Edited on 10-11-2020 by JZ]

It must be devastating for the group of Pandemic Experts here on BajaNomad.com to be contradicted by both other BajaNomad.com experts but also a leading scientist at the WHO. I think they must retire from internet prognostication in disgrace.

SunDevil - 10-12-2020 at 08:11 AM

5 Charts That Show Sweden’s Strategy Worked. The Lockdowns Failed

Sweden’s “lighter touch” seems to have tamed COVID-19. While many European countries that implemented lockdowns are witnessing a resurgence of the virus, Sweden’s cases and deaths remain a stark contrast to other European nations.

https://fee.org/articles/5-charts-that-show-sweden-s-strateg...

caj13 - 10-12-2020 at 09:50 AM

Quote: Originally posted by apple

A group of ppl on here should be utterly ashamed of themselves.
[Edited on 10-11-2020 by JZ]

another one who didn't bother to watch the actual interview eh! figures!

Gee Whiz !

MrBillM - 10-12-2020 at 09:53 AM

SURPRISINGLY, it "appears" that the debate won't be settled here.

Given this forum's historical track-record for rapidly curing the world's ills utilizing in-depth analysis and collective perceptual clarity, there had been great hope ventured among those in the world community that the wealth of collective minds contributing here would resolve this dilemma.

Alas, even when placed before the great intellects represented here, resolution remains elusive and the outlook uncertain.

OH WELL.

Hey ............................ Happy Columbus Day !

John Harper - 10-12-2020 at 10:20 AM

A group of ppl on here should be utterly ashamed of themselves.

Getting a check from the govt. every month and don't care what happens to other ppl?

Aren't you the "Forbes 500" CEO who got a PPP bailout from the government? Probably a lot more than the average SS check that was earned over a lifetime of work by retirees.

BTW, did you have to pay that loan back? Or, just more corporate welfare paid for by us "little" people?

John

JZ - 10-12-2020 at 10:40 AM

I don't think you understand what it means take something out of context. They literally wrote what the guy said over 2 mins, verbatim.

JZ - 10-12-2020 at 10:44 AM

Hey ............................ Happy Columbus Day !

Didn't you know that Columbus Day has been declared racist? You are no longer allowed to celebrate it, or you are deemed a racist.

[Edited on 10-12-2020 by JZ]

Eurocentrically Ecstatic

MrBillM - 10-12-2020 at 12:29 PM

Speaking as one who is (according to Ancestry.com and Mi Hermana Mormon) entirely composed of European (Irish-English-French-German-Scandanavian) roots, I am damned glad that Chris stumbled across the continent.

Too bad for (some of) the Aboriginals but, as they say, "you can't make an omelet without breaking some folks".

Or, something like that.

apple - 10-12-2020 at 12:42 PM

Too bad for (some of) the Aboriginals but, as they say, "you can't make an omelet without breaking some folks".

Or, something like that.

I think it's actually "Can't make an America without some genocide and slavery"

apple - 10-12-2020 at 12:46 PM

I like that "rather not do it" and "do not advocate" are the same thing as begging world leaders not to do something.

David K - 10-12-2020 at 01:05 PM

Hey ............................ Happy Columbus Day !

Didn't you know that Columbus Day has been declared racist? You are no longer allowed to celebrate it, or you are deemed a racist.

[Edited on 10-12-2020 by JZ]

Well, the post office is celebrating it, so can't be too bad!

caj13 - 10-12-2020 at 02:45 PM

I don't think you understand what it means take something out of context. They literally wrote what the guy said over 2 mins, verbatim.

Uh, any idea how long the interview was? that might be important!

surabi - 10-12-2020 at 07:24 PM

Thats the bottom line - actions taken, and actions ignored - thats what puts us here in this position. 250,000 dead - that number could have been much lower. I know it doesn't matter to some of you, unless of course you or a loved one is part of the 250,000 - then its a bit different - right!

[Edited on 10-12-2020 by caj13]

Actually there are 1,085,352 humans dead from COVID. Let's not forget that Americans aren't the only ones that count.

JZ - 10-12-2020 at 07:55 PM

Actually there are 1,085,352 humans dead from COVID. Let's not forget that Americans aren't the only ones that count.

"Approximately 1.35 million people die in road crashes each year, on average 3,700 people lose their lives every day on the roads. An additional 20-50 million suffer non-fatal injuries, often resulting in long-term disabilities."

From BBC

Stickers - 10-12-2020 at 09:05 PM

The head of the World Health Organization has ruled out a herd immunity response to the pandemic.
Herd immunity occurs when a large portion of a community becomes immune to a disease through vaccinations or through the mass spread of a disease.
Some have argued that coronavirus should be allowed to spread naturally in the absence of a vaccine.
But WHO chief Tedros Ghebreyesus said such an approach was "scientifically and ethically problematic".
There have been more than 37 million confirmed cases of coronavirus across the globe since the pandemic began. More than one million people are known to have died.
While hundreds of vaccines are currently under development, with a number in advanced trials, none has yet received international approval.

BajaMama - 10-12-2020 at 09:25 PM

Comparing deaths from one source to another source is logical fallacy. You can't compare car deaths to illness deaths. We know this virus is at least 4 times deadlier than the flu. Seriously peeps, all it takes is common sense to live the life you can and stay safe and keep others safe until this passes. Historically pandemics take about 2 years, and that is w/o a vaccine. All this arguing is utterly stupid. Wash your effing hands, wear a mask, don't dine or drink indoors unless you are under 40 and if your do stay away from the mature people in your life. Socially distance and enjoy those outdoor dining experiences. I'm so sick of the lot of you arguing about stupid stuff when the solution is so gosh darned easy. You just have to out your mind set into how long this is going to take and put your seatbelt on for the ride.

surabi - 10-12-2020 at 10:04 PM

This would a prime example of your flawed thinking process, that this is somehow relevant.

It would be like your kid getting killed by a drunk driver and your neighbor telling you that's no big deal because his aunt died of cancer last week.

And in case you're not aware, car accidents aren't contagious. Neither is heart disease, cancer, or various other examples one could give of the things people die from.

JZ - 10-12-2020 at 10:49 PM

Quote: Originally posted by BajaMama

Seriously peeps, all it takes is common sense to live the life you can and stay safe and keep others safe until this passes. Historically pandemics take about 2 years, and that is w/o a vaccine. All this arguing is utterly stupid. Wash your effing hands, wear a mask, don't dine or drink indoors unless you are under 40 and if your do stay away from the mature people in your life. Socially distance and enjoy those outdoor dining experiences.

I agree with you 100%. That's what I've been saying for months.

You have missed the hundreds of posts from the Coronabro's telling us to stay home and it's too dangerous to even visit places like the seven sisters where there aren't ppl around for 40 miles.

They have a very nefarious agenda. And now the WHO is telling them to shut up and they are losing their minds. Notice how they have attacked the messenger endlessly, but not the substance of the message?

[Edited on 10-13-2020 by JZ]

JZ - 10-12-2020 at 11:16 PM

It's 100% relevant. Because life and laws are about balancing safety vs. our ability to live life.

We could eliminate car accidents, but how would society function?

Strict lock downs other than to help medical resources to gear up do not strike the proper balance. Mainly because they have tremendous downsides in terms of the economy, mental health, drug abuse, suicide, and so on.

This is what I've said for six months and the WHO just told you.

Those with agendas 1. at risk ppl (especially those who don't need to work) who don't care about others who are not at risk and need to work and live, 2. ppl who want the US economy to tank in an election year, and 3. several other nefarious reasons, have stated on here across hundreds of posts that that strict lock downs are imperative, and the negative impact of them are meaningless or made up.

This is why Goat and his cohorts just aren't good ppl.

[Edited on 10-13-2020 by JZ]

caj13 - 10-13-2020 at 05:52 AM

Back to the original Topic.
JZ, are you locked down right now? anyone else? who here is locked down? what states are locked down?

I'm just trying to get an understanding of what "locked down " is.

and just to reinforce. If any of you have the time and want to educate yourself about what the WHO says about lockdowns, instead of hearing it through the filter of Trumpty Dumbties spouting headlines from a right wing magazine -

I would strongly recommend you go listen to the whole interview, and all of a sudden, this discussion here becomes pretty much a waste of time, other than a platform for you antimaskers to beat your chests like your superhero president!

and BTW - Halloween is coming fast - what a perfect opportunity. I think the hottest costume for the holiday will be Trump in a tear away suit with a superman T shirt underneath. If its good enough for him, you ought to be honored to follow suite!

DouglasP - 10-13-2020 at 05:59 AM

I love this rationale.
How is someone's distracted driving, reaching into a bag of cheeseburgers or texting, crossing the center line and killing you, not contagious?

JZ - 10-13-2020 at 07:47 AM

and BTW - Halloween is coming fast - what a perfect opportunity. I think the hottest costume for the holiday will be Trump in a tear away suit with a superman T shirt underneath. If its good enough for him, you ought to be honored to follow suite!

Silly you thinking you can take your kids or grand kids trick or treating.

“Door to door trick or treating is not allowed because it can be very difficult to maintain proper social distancing on porches and at front doors especially in neighborhoods that are popular with trick or treaters,” the new guidance reads.

“Since some of the traditional ways in which this holiday is celebrated does not allow you to minimize contact with non-household members, it is important to plan early and identify safer alternatives,” county health officials said in a statement.

To that end, those who wish to celebrate Halloween amid the pandemic with safer alternatives can host or attend online get-togethers, costume contests or pumpkin carving parties.

Revelers can also take part in drive-by costume contests with judges maintaining proper social distance, decorate their homes or yards or participate in drive-by events with treat bags – although any candy doled out should be commercially packaged, county health officials said.

https://nypost.com/2020/09/09/los-angeles-bans-halloween-tri...

Only to reverse itself after ppl finally say enough is enough.

[Edited on 10-13-2020 by JZ]

AKgringo - 10-13-2020 at 07:51 AM

I wonder if there is going to be a bump in the birthrate, due to people of breeding age spending more time at home together?

That could go the other way as well, leading to a bump in the divorce rate!

caj13 - 10-13-2020 at 08:52 AM

funny observation: JZ read my post, had no answer for the pertinent questions, knew he could not answer without completely invalidating his rant, so he goes to Halloween, once again either ignoring or being totally unaware of the reference - typical!

Hey JZ - how many of those automobile deaths would have been prevented had the victims been wearing seatbelts, and had front and side airbags, and how many avoided if the vehicles had active avoidance systems. How many were related to alcohol?

See thats kind of like washing your hands and wearing a mask - and social distancing : doing the smart proven things required to minimize the risk to yourself and others.

and BTW - Its not all about you. Everyone of the 40 million people infected caught the disease from someone else, often the infector did not even know they were contagious - (see president superspreader for context)

[Edited on 10-13-2020 by caj13]

[Edited on 10-13-2020 by caj13]

KurtG - 10-13-2020 at 10:51 AM

I read somewhere last week that the number of all deaths in America (so far) was less in 2020 than 2019, at the same point in time... I suppose staying locked up indoors is safer than driving, working, sports, etc.

Trading freedom for safety... is that what we want to be doing?
I sure would rather die on a Baja adventure or doing something I choose to be doing than locked in my house waiting for Death to come get me in old age!

https://newatlas.com/health-wellbeing/excess-deaths-coronavi...

This article contradicts your 'read somewhere" report. Suggest that this whole article be read, sources seem good.

I also would like to be doing my usual Baja travels. This will be the first year since 1974 that I have not done so but because of age, I'm 76, I am being cautious. That doesn't mean "being locked in my house." Outdoor activities are available to us here and we take advantage of them. We are fortunate in that regard. Tomorrow I'm packing a lunch and motorcycling Hwy 1 to Big Sur, probably will not interact with anyone along the way.

motoged - 10-13-2020 at 12:08 PM

.....

I side with facts over prediction...
... Polar bears are still living on ice flows, too.

KurtG - 10-13-2020 at 12:27 PM

Quote: Originally posted by KurtG

Kurt, that article is speaking about a prediction of 400,000 dead... a prediction. My source was talking about actual counts of deaths this year vs. last year.
I side with facts over prediction...

The very first paragraph gives current stats, not predictions:

"New research, published in the journal JAMA, tracking total all-cause death rates in the United States has found 20 percent more people have died in 2020 compared to prior year averages. And, even more strikingly, only two-thirds of those excess deaths this year can be directly attributed to COVID-19".

Please provide a link to the article you are referencing. It would be interesting to compare sources, I feel JAMA is pretty reputable.

How did we go from a study of death statistics to Polar Bears and Palm trees?

[Edited on 10-13-2020 by KurtG]

caj13 - 10-13-2020 at 12:42 PM

How dare you confront David with actual facts and figures. Theres no way that can stand up to - I think I read somewhere ...

and David, you've been PROVEN wrong on anything you say about sea levels, perhaps its time to educate yourself, and leave your tired old ignorance behind!

bkbend - 10-13-2020 at 01:11 PM

Just the facts, Maam. Data, which are usually factual, can be manipulated into "statistics" to support pretty much whatever conclusion you would like to have. I'm pretty sceptical of statistics being thrown around so I did a quick search for articles reporting more deaths and articles reporting fewer deaths. for my own entertainment I wanted to see how the same numbers can be bent.

The following is from a statistics professor using CDC data.

https://theconversation.com/up-to-204-691-extra-deaths-in-th...

Here is a report saying it ain't so. It also uses CDC data.

https://gellerreport.com/2020/04/total-us-deaths.html/

Trick -- or -- treat???

BajaMama - 10-13-2020 at 01:49 PM

Quote: Originally posted by BajaMama

My husband and I have been camping, fly fishing, and wheeling in the sierras. These are all good, safe, socially distanced activities. We also bring our own food just in case. Last night we enjoyed a birthday dinner with 2 other couples in an outdoor patio setting (we are all in same social bubble). Life hasn't been what is was pre-pandemic but it is enough to have some fun while staying alive. We won't go to Mexico, but only because the law says border is closed to non-essential travel and we choose to respect the law. But when it officially is open to non-essential travel I will probably drive down with mi suegro to check on the house.

BajaMama - 10-13-2020 at 01:56 PM

I reiterate - these arguments are pointless and silly.

My husband and I plan to sit on our porch on halloween with a PVC tube pointed down the porch stairs to shoot candy into kid's trick or treat bags (if any show up). We will open bags with gloves on and keep gloves on to pick up and shoot candy. Wine will be involved and we will smile and chat with (from a distance) every family that passes by. See, fun can be had

KurtG - 10-13-2020 at 02:06 PM

Thanks bkbend, nice to show that you can get a spin on any story to make it read as you like.

No matter what link I put up, the usually 'big-government knows best' crowd will dismiss it!

As for sea level, that is a fact that anyone who has been alive for any time can see from piers, boat launch ramps, rocks in the water, or homes on the coast... the sea is not higher.

Don't like the palms in Baja as a benchmark?
How about down under?

Drink some more OJ Kurt, and less Kool Aid!

[just fun, okay?]

[Edited on 10-13-2020 by David K]

David, I have never engaged in any climate discussion or said anything about my political views on this forum that I can recall. Never saw any point in it. I have only asked for your sources so I can make up my own mind about credibility. I took a couple of college statistics courses so am well aware of how they can be manipulated and how often they are misunderstood. As to the bears and palm trees I really didn't understand what they had to do with current death statistics so I asked.

Again, I was only asking for your source of info.

JZ - 10-13-2020 at 02:26 PM

Quote: Originally posted by BajaMama

I reiterate - these arguments are pointless and silly.

My husband and I plan to sit on our porch on halloween with a PVC tube pointed down the porch stairs to shoot candy into kid's trick or treat bags (if any show up). We will open bags with gloves on and keep gloves on to pick up and shoot candy. Wine will be involved and we will smile and chat with (from a distance) every family that passes by. See, fun can be had

But how would you feel if the govt. told you your grand kids couldn't go trick or treating?

David K - 10-13-2020 at 02:36 PM

Sure thing, Kurt,
I am on Baja Nomad to help anyone to find a Baja adventure, to read others Baja adventures, and make new Baja amigos. You are one of those, to me.
I find MtGoat and others constant attempts to promote big government controls and solutions rather than personal freedom and opportunity for all or just stay on Baja topics, a bit disappointing.
That said, when I interject into these non-Baja subjects, it is for entertainment and not intended to be carved in stone. Now, ask me about Baja travel or history, and those answers are ones I do stand by until better answers are submitted.
Be well my friend.

motoged - 10-13-2020 at 03:21 PM

But how would you feel if the govt. told you your grand kids couldn't go trick or treating?

I would .... and do feel good about following the advice of experts and applying it with common sense.

I understand that you don't...... que lastima.

John Harper - 10-13-2020 at 04:15 PM

But how would you feel if the govt. told you your grand kids couldn't go trick or treating?

If I was a young kid and my grandfather had just died recently of COVID, I would hope/beg everyone would listen to our (responsible and mature?) elected leaders and health professionals. I would not want your father, or anyone else's grandfather put at risk unnecessarily. You can afford candy for your two kids, right?

Happy Halloween!

John

[Edited on 10-13-2020 by John Harper]

John Harper - 10-13-2020 at 04:27 PM

I find MtGoat and others constant attempts to promote big government controls and solutions rather than personal freedom and opportunity for all or just stay on Baja topics, a bit disappointing.

Disappointing? That mtngoat666 does not share your opinion? You cry about freedom? Freedom of thought, expression, and speech are the NUMBER ONE rights ingrained in the First Amendment. Religion is not near as important, no matter what some say. Religion wants to suppress the three fundamental freedoms I mentioned above.

You have personal freedom. So, why don't you walk around naked? Why do you dress up for formal occasions? What kind of sacrifice is it to wear a freaking mask? No one's forced you to go ashore at Iwo Jima, or taken your land or your beloved Toyota, or any of my firearms, ever.

You may not like Goat's opinions, but he has every right to express them, and seems more than capable of defending them. Which, I cannot say for some of the members here. Most get torn to shreds with facts rather briskly.

Happy Halloween!

John

David K - 10-13-2020 at 04:39 PM

John, I was answering Kurt with my thoughts and not making any rules. It isn't my website. I am not censoring the goat or his thinking (is that even possible?).
My thoughts were directed at just this sort of thing... spinning a post to make a political statement... freedom of whatever in the U.S. is NOT a Baja subject.
I just hope that people come here and get to see or read about Baja, not political propaganda.
Peace!

John Harper - 10-13-2020 at 04:46 PM

John, I was answering Kurt with my thoughts and not making any rules. It isn't my website. I am not censoring the goat or his thinking (is that even possible?).
My thoughts were directed at just this sort of thing... spinning a post to make a political statement... freedom of whatever in the U.S. is NOT a Baja subject.
I just hope that people come here and get to see or read about Baja, not political propaganda.
Peace!

Maybe you should keep some of your "thoughts" inside your head and not commit them to public viewing? Especially if they denigrate someone else needlessly? You're excused.

Most of our banter is pretty darn respectful, you have to admit. Or, at least most of us come back to center. It seems like most the people who leave are the "hypocrites," or "bomb throwers" which is always a good thing. Facing truth is painful for some. The universe works in mysterious ways.

John

[Edited on 10-13-2020 by John Harper]

surabi - 10-13-2020 at 09:52 PM

Quote: Originally posted by DouglasP

How is someone's distracted driving, reaching into a bag of cheeseburgers or texting, crossing the center line and killing you, not contagious?

I'd suggest you consult a dictionary to learn the definition of the word "contagious". Sorry I used such a big word you're not familiar with.

Words don't just mean whatever you think or want them to mean.

surabi - 10-13-2020 at 09:59 PM

But how would you feel if the govt. told you your grand kids couldn't go trick or treating?

The govt. doesn't have to tell me that my grandkids can't go trick or treating, because their parents and the kids themselves are intelligent enough to realize that it would be an entirely stupid and dangerous thing to do while a pandemic is raging.

JZ - 10-13-2020 at 10:04 PM

Quote: Originally posted by John Harper

In my opinion, each family needs to make it's own decision.

A young family with mom and dad in their 40's, and pre-teen kids with no older relatives in the home have one risk profile.

A family with grand parents in the house who have health issues is another thing.

To apply one rule to both is not the correct answer.

I'm actually very surprised that the older folks on here accept being controlled by the whims of the govt. official in the county, town, or city they life in. With all the varying opinions of what is safe/ok and what isn't - that's what it has boiled down to at this point, whim/agenda of a govt. official.

When that official capriciously says it's ok to gather to protest/riot, but not ok to gather to go to church (or trick or treat), well, I'm just not ok with that level of govt. control.

[Edited on 10-14-2020 by JZ]

SunDevil - 10-14-2020 at 04:28 AM

Sweden now has lowest death rate in Europe

At the start of the COVID-19 pandemic, Sweden chose to go for herd immunity by refusing to impose a hard lockdown, meaning bars, restaurants, gyms, workplaces and schools remained open and vulnerable people were told to shield while mandatory mask rules were avoided.

Despite the mainstream media predicting that this would lead to massive fatalities, Sweden has recorded under 6,000 coronavirus deaths and now has the lowest death rate in Europe.

The Scandinavian country’s GDP fared better than the rest of Europe and now large segments of the population have developed herd immunity, reducing the impact of any potential “second wave.”

https://summit.news/2020/10/13/swedish-health-chief-said-cou...

Jack Swords - 10-14-2020 at 09:12 AM

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-health-coronavirus-sweden...

Live Free and be Like ME !

MrBillM - 10-14-2020 at 09:40 AM

Treat EVERY single human being (man, woman, child) outside the household as if contact with them would be fatal. Detour away from anyone not (properly) wearing a mask and maintain space from those who DO.

It ain't foolproof, BUT it sure increases the odds in your favor.

I have come and gone on the roads as I pleased since Day One of the mandates.

Early on, I found the highways, byways and my campground destination nearly deserted. Which was pretty cool. It didn't last, of course, and today one would realize that the traffic patterns have returned to pre-COVID numbers. The same slowdowns and the same stops in the same places.

Follow MY example. Mask Up - Maintain distance.

And (optionally) also follow my example of never going anywhere without a pistol under the front seat.

Just in case. Stay safe.

John Harper - 10-14-2020 at 10:10 AM

https://summit.news/2020/10/13/swedish-health-chief-said-cou...

Summit News? Rated quite"low" as far a credibility goes.

https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/summit-news/

"Overall, we rate Summit News Questionable based on Extreme Right-wing bias, promotion of conspiracies, misleading and unproven stories, and a complete lack of transparency."

You don't have something more credible to use as source material?

John

[Edited on 10-14-2020 by John Harper]

del mar - 10-14-2020 at 10:14 AM

Quote: Originally posted by Jack Swords

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-health-coronavirus-sweden...

gracias

John Harper - 10-14-2020 at 10:15 AM

I'm actually very surprised that the older folks on here accept being controlled by the whims of the govt. official in the county, town, or city they life in. With all the varying opinions of what is safe/ok and what isn't - that's what it has boiled down to at this point, whim/agenda of a govt. official.

With age comes wisdom. And perhaps more common sense. Our political officials are elected to lead, so what's wrong with some acceptance of that reality?

No ones being controlled, we all make our own decisions. It just appears you have some need to mock other's choices. Has anyone stopped you from travelling? Then, why are you concerned about other's choices? Why not ignore speed limit signs, or ignore warning signs before sharp turns? Isn't that accepting government control over your personal behavior?

I guess you're okay with "ala carte" respect for the law? A lot like the Bible thumpers, pick and choose parts of the Bible, and ignore others?

John

[Edited on 10-14-2020 by John Harper]

motoged - 10-14-2020 at 12:18 PM

Quote: Originally posted by John Harper

John,
Jizzy is trying very hard to be relevant, omniscient, and the expert in all things.

Some of us recognize his efforts and find them discomforting, irritating, and disrespectful.

But he doesn't seem to care and plunders onward with his beliefs, often ignoring facts that don't fit his narrative.

While he likes to appear that he resists "big government", he doesn't mind gov't financial handouts while accusing others of being on the gov't dole....

I am not sure which identity/group he is trying to impress or develop.

Transparent.

pacificobob - 10-14-2020 at 12:41 PM

Quote: Originally posted by John Harper

well said......both of you.

sancho - 10-14-2020 at 12:56 PM

Quote: Originally posted by pacificobob

well said......both of you.

Tioloco - 10-14-2020 at 01:34 PM

Quote: Originally posted by sancho

Quote: Originally posted by pacificobob

well said......both of you.

Minus 1

surabi - 10-14-2020 at 03:31 PM

Sweden now has lowest death rate in Europe

At the start of the COVID-19 pandemic, Sweden chose to go for herd immunity by refusing to impose a hard lockdown, meaning bars, restaurants, gyms, workplaces and schools remained open and vulnerable people were told to shield while mandatory mask rules were avoided.

Despite the mainstream media predicting that this would lead to massive fatalities, Sweden has recorded under 6,000 coronavirus deaths and now has the lowest death rate in Europe.

The Scandinavian country’s GDP fared better than the rest of Europe and now large segments of the population have developed herd immunity, reducing the impact of any potential “second wave.”

https://summit.news/2020/10/13/swedish-health-chief-said-cou...

False information.

COVID deaths per 1 million population:

Sweden 584
Denmark 116
Norway 51
Finland 63
Portugal 208
Spain 715
France 506
Germany 117
Netherlands 389

AKgringo - 10-14-2020 at 03:47 PM

Surabi, do you know of a source that would show deaths per million population in the last 60 days or so?

Bajazly - 10-14-2020 at 03:53 PM

FWIW on Europe in general. Wintertime is coming.

https://www.reuters.com/article/uk-health-coronavirus-europe...

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/10/14/world/europe/europe-coron...

surabi - 10-14-2020 at 04:41 PM

Quote: Originally posted by AKgringo

Surabi, do you know of a source that would show deaths per million population in the last 60 days or so?

https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/

Updated daily. There are also graphs there so you can look back at the progression of cases over time.

caj13 - 10-16-2020 at 06:15 AM

Well i guess i owe JZ an apology. Apparently, 85% of those who wear masks are getting Covid! who knew?

JZ - 10-16-2020 at 11:49 AM

From the Washington Post today:

"Europe set a record this week for new coronavirus infections, overtaking the United States in cases per capita."

These guys had massive lock downs. Much stricter than the US.

Bottom line, lock downs don't stop viruses.

Bajazly - 10-16-2020 at 12:16 PM

From the Washington Post today:

"Europe set a record this week for new coronavirus infections, overtaking the United States in cases per capita."

These guys had massive lock downs. Much stricter than the US.

Bottom line, lock downs don't stop viruses.

Vatican City, #7, the only "country" in Europe with a higher per capita case rate than the USA, #12 with Spain coming in next at #17. You need to get below 25 to start seeing any European countries showing up.

What's your real point?

www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/

JZ - 10-16-2020 at 01:09 PM

Quote: Originally posted by Bajazly

Coronavirus cases hit records in Europe, surpassing U.S. numbers

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/europe/covid-europe-rec...

Europe set a record this week for new coronavirus infections, overtaking the United States in cases per capita.

The alarm echoed warnings from London to Latvia that the virus is rapidly spiraling out of control. France, Germany, Italy, Poland, the Netherlands, Croatia, Slovakia and the Czech Republic all posted records Thursday.

[Edited on 10-16-2020 by JZ]

caj13 - 10-16-2020 at 01:22 PM

Do you plan on reading the article JZ? because it says the lockdowns were very sucessfull in lowering rates, but now since there are no lockdowns, thats whats driving the new numbers- go ahead JZ - Read it!

when they were "locked down" what was the result JZ? Its not the Lockdowns that are driving these new numbers. And just to be clear - did you ever go back and actually watch and listen to the interview with the WHO Dr. ? did you? what did he say about lockdowns JZ? what did he say about appropriate uses of lockdowns JZ?

and then go back and look at the history of lockdowns, and if the served their purpose!

[Edited on 10-16-2020 by caj13]

JZ - 10-16-2020 at 03:17 PM

Is this for real? Do you think that was the point being made? I'll give you a minute to reflect on it.

Let's play chess, not checkers ole boy.

[Edited on 10-16-2020 by JZ]

motoged - 10-16-2020 at 03:20 PM

......

Bottom line, lock downs don't stop viruses.

You are sure expecting a lot from poor Jizzy.... read something longer than a headline? Comprehending a paragraph or more beyond a sound bite?

He needs a rest from being held accountable.....go easy with your expectations....

Tioloco - 10-16-2020 at 03:39 PM

......

Bottom line, lock downs don't stop viruses.

What a sad couple of hateful old babies you two are.

motoged - 10-16-2020 at 06:31 PM

We aren't a couple.... just two Nomads with a sense of decency.

mtgoat666 - 10-16-2020 at 06:56 PM

The Third Coronavirus Surge Has Arrived
This week’s COVID-19 cases and hospitalizations make clear that the U.S. is once again sinking deeper into the pandemic.
THE COVID TRACKING PROJECT, OCTOBER 15, 2020
https://www.theatlantic.com/science/archive/2020/10/coronavi...

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2020/us/coronavirus-us-c...

Jizz: you can ignore this, go back to your tiktok!

Bajazly - 10-16-2020 at 07:09 PM

Is this for real? Do you think that was the point being made? I'll give you a minute to reflect on it.

Let's play chess, not checkers ole boy.

[Edited on 10-16-2020 by JZ]

Ok, I'll play. What was your point then? You said "bottom line is lockdowns don't stop viruses"

Lobsterman - 10-17-2020 at 05:26 AM

Boy you guys are turning this thread into a "mini OT". Since OT is pretty much a two person forum now, I guess this side of the fence is where this type of discussion needs to take place.

IMO and it's only my opinion I have to ask the questions: would you rather die from a million cuts and suffer greatly during that experience or just get it over with. I pick the latter. Look at the harm we are doing to this generation and more importantly the next. Is it worth the costs? Are we going to continue to follow this philosophy on all the other man-made viruses that are going to be sprung upon us in the future, i.e. by accident or on purpose?

[Edited on 10-17-2020 by Lobsterman]

caj13 - 10-17-2020 at 10:46 AM

Here you go JZ - Pictures - makes it easy to understand: Might want to rethink your pretense of lockdowns not mattering!
And BTW - we may have lost the crown for a couple of weeks - but we are back baby - We are #1!

https://coronavirus.jhu.edu/data/new-cases
and some current data for you
Cumulative cases:
America: 18 653 229 cases; the five countries reporting most cases are United States (8 050 141), Brazil (5 200 300), Argentina (965 596), Colombia (945 354) and Peru (862 417).

Europe: 6 829 587 cases; the five countries reporting most cases are Russia (1 369 313), Spain (936 560), France (834 770), United Kingdom (689 257) and Italy (391 611).

cumulative deaths
America: 606 348 deaths; the five countries reporting most deaths are United States (218 599), Brazil (153 214), Mexico (85 704), Peru (33 648) and Colombia (28 616).

Europe: 239 188 deaths; the five countries reporting most deaths are United Kingdom (43 429), Italy (36 427), Spain (33 775), France (33 303) and Russia (23 723).

Oh yeah lets remember 2 more things in this comparison OK JZ? whats the population of Europe? and the USA population? so go ahead, take those numbers, and turn it into a proportion - and how does that affect the raw numbers JZ?

I'm sensing a trend here. There are a couple of Nomad members here who are notorious for posting links to information, that they clearly either did not understand, or ignored the facts, or just plain did not read, instead choosing to post a click bait title from an uber right wing biased source.

Funny that the one correlation I see is that they both failed the BAR exam.
i have no idea if that a correlation or causal!

[Edited on 10-17-2020 by caj13]

caj13 - 10-17-2020 at 11:02 AM

Quote: Originally posted by Lobsterman

Are we going to continue to follow this philosophy on all the other man-made viruses that are going to be sprung upon us in the future, i.e. by accident or on purpose?

[Edited on 10-17-2020 by Lobsterman]

Bwahahahahaaaaaa! manmade - right! you must be a charter member of Q anon right! don't you have more important things to be "researching" ?

when are you going to find the next Comet Pizza, where lefty libs meet to eat children after they sexually abuse them!

[Edited on 10-17-2020 by caj13]

Salsa - 10-17-2020 at 11:12 AM

Nobody ever said Lockdowns would stop Covid. They said it would slow it down.
Slow it down so it would take forever to disappear!!!!!!!!!!!!

Meanwhile, we will run out of rabbits and grass to eat.

Don

motoged - 10-17-2020 at 11:19 AM

Diet tip: subsisting on only rabbit likely leads to a fat deficiency and serious health risks/death. Eat some beaver to bring up your fat levels.

A Canadian who enjoys the flavour. :biggrin:

Tioloco - 10-17-2020 at 11:36 AM

Diet tip: subsisting on only rabbit likely leads to a fat deficiency and serious health risks/death. Eat some beaver to bring up your fat levels.

A Canadian who enjoys the flavour. :biggrin:

Ged, like the old adage “you are what you eat”

caj13 - 10-17-2020 at 11:38 AM

Quote: Originally posted by Salsa

Nobody ever said Lockdowns would stop Covid. They said it would slow it down.
Slow it down so it would take forever to disappear!!!!!!!!!!!!

Meanwhile, we will run out of rabbits and grass to eat.

Don

right, care to do a bit of research on what it would to entail getting to herd immunity? whats the projected # of deaths there?

so if you slow it down, don't overrun the medical resources, that allows for a higher survival rate, and reduces the infection rates. and fewer people are infected across longer time frames. plus that time is well used toward getting a functional vaccine, which essentially give a population Herd Immunity with out the infections and death!

But you just keep going to your Covid Parties dude! The faster you get sick, the better off the USA will be - right!

Already Had CV

Lobsterman - 10-17-2020 at 12:17 PM

When I was working in the San Francisco area back in Jan-Feb I came home with a viral infection that lasted a few days. I was a little surprised because I never get sick. Maybe twice in 20 years. Never had a flu shot. A recent anti-bodies test says I have CV anti bodies in my blood. I needed the test to go back to work out in the field to visit remote locations. Did I have CV? Don't know or care if I did.

But what is up with you guys, someone makes a comment that differs from your view and out comes all these made up comments and insinuations on ones actions. No, I do not have CV parties, I wear a mask in public, I keep social distances and I respect ones view on the CV. I'm just a fisherman who goes fishing many times a week and minds his own business. I just do not support lockdowns and the harm they have caused. OK.

Please do not morph into another JJJ.

motoged - 10-17-2020 at 01:31 PM

Quote: Originally posted by Tioloco

Diet tip: subsisting on only rabbit likely leads to a fat deficiency and serious health risks/death. Eat some beaver to bring up your fat levels.

A Canadian who enjoys the flavour. :biggrin:

Ged, like the old adage “you are what you eat”

Too bad that is missing from your diet. :biggrin:

caj13 - 10-17-2020 at 02:28 PM

Quote: Originally posted by Lobsterman

But what is up with you guys, someone makes a comment that differs from your view and out comes all these made up comments and insinuations on ones actions. No, I do not have CV parties, I wear a mask in public, I keep social distances and I respect ones view on the CV. I'm just a fisherman who goes fishing many times a week and minds his own business. I just do not support lockdowns and the harm they have caused. OK.

Please do not morph into another JJJ.

Lobsterman: You are the one making the long ago disproven but favorite insinuation of the right wing fringe that this is a man made virus, and along with that claim BTW was often the contention that Dr. Fauci "invented" the virus and sent it to china, to infect everyone!

That may be your "opinion" You are entitled to that. And, you have chosen to publically make that statement. I stand behind your right to do so.

BUT it is completely , totally, and long ago demonstrated to be completely false!

I'm simply holding you accountable for the false news you are spouting. You are entitled to your belief -
But I'm entitled to hold you accountable for your public spouting of fake news!

John Harper - 10-17-2020 at 03:05 PM