Abandoned mine

We recently took the less traveled road from Punta Santa Maria (Seven Sisters area) to meet mex 1 south of Laguna Chapala. About 15 miles from the main road we stumbled upon an oasis. Once we hiked out to it we found an old adobe structure, non native trees and what appeared to be an abandoned mine. Anyone know the story of this place? thanks

Looked around your location, which is only ~5 miles from the highway and found nothing. At 9.8 miles from the highway I found a bunch of trees (oasis?), and can see what appears to be an adobe structure at a place named Codornices. Could the "mine" have been a water well?

Quote: Originally posted by mtgoat666

That pic looks like hand-dug well. If it was a mine shaft, you would see other excavations around area (prospects, other s shafts or adits, etc), and see waste rock piles. Hand dug wells often have timber on side walls, so hole does not collapse.

TW may know

Quote: Originally posted by TMW

As I remember Rancho Codornices/San Antonio there was two buildings and they were near several palm trees. The building shown by nbentley1 is not it.

Quote: Originally posted by Lance S.

Quote: Originally posted by David K   Quote: Originally posted by TMW   As I remember Rancho Codornices/San Antonio there was two buildings and they were near several palm trees. The building shown by nbentley1 is not it. I think so, as mentioned, they were nearly a mile apart. I have had to tell people who thought San Antonio was a mission site, it was only an old ranch site. David probably already knows this but in case anyone else is interested... The location of the old Rancho Codornices was considered for a mission Cabacera. This was after they had pretty much decided on the site at Calamajue. The Jesuits called it La Hermosura, The Cochimi called it Keda. They were thinking that if Laguna Chapala had water they could use the two locations together for a mission based on raising cattle but with little or no agriculture. I don't know why they thought Chapala would have water the second time visiting it, they had been there the year before in 1766. Shows how desperate they were to find a site between San Borja and San Fernando. The lower end of Arroyo San Jose (near Faro San Jose) was also considered.

Interesting!

Mission San Borja was opened in 1762. It was a visita of Mission Santa Gertrudis since 1759. The Jesuit in charge at San Borja was Wenceslaus Linck. In February (to April) 1766, Linck led a major expedition to seek out new mission sites and find a route to the Colorado River (also to again prove California was not an island).

It was Linck, during this expedition, who discovered Velicatá (the future site of Mission San Fernando). Velicatá was an excellent location for a mission, but being so far from San Borja, an intermediate mission was established first. This would be at Calamajué in October 1766 with its abundant (but salty) year-round stream. Crops failed and the water was undrinkable. In May 1767, the mission was moved and now identified as Mission Santa María de los Angeles.

Before the Jesuits could establish the mission at Velicatá, they were all removed and sent back to Europe under false pretenses.
Velicatá would become a mission during the Franciscan period, in 1769. It was the first California mission founded by Junípero Serra, in fact (not San Diego).

Map (south half) of Padre Wenceslaus Linck's 1766 expedition from San Borja (showing Keda and Codornices in close proximity):



Question: Lance, where did you read about La Hermosura?

Quote: Originally posted by 4x4abc

at least Laguna Chapala is in the wrong place on this map

Quote: Originally posted by 4x4abc

what would Las Palomas translate to on today's map?

Quote: Originally posted by 4x4abc

is there a published log of Linck's journey?

Figuring out the places

Let me clarify the rancho and San Antonio
The Rancho known as Condornices (ranch not shown on the Almac or the Atlas). And this ranch does not appear on Google earth.
The place nbentley1 found was San Antonio (AB) a small rancho on the road between the west coast north to Highway 1 at K257. This place is north of the new rancho discussed below.
The Almac shows a place called Condornices, but that label is west of the present functional rancho.

In the image below shows the existing roads with a loop to Antonio and back to the main road.



In this image I show the Cal Topo version with an old version of the road. The road shown was very overgrown on my first trip, but now that left side of the loop is an easy drive.




Next is a screen shot from my GPS showing the old version like Cal Topo





The next image shows the roads near Rancho Condornices. The GPS call that place “San Antonio”. I put “Rancho Condornices” label there.

Quote: Originally posted by PaulW

Let me clarify the rancho and San Antonio The Rancho known as Condornices (ranch not shown on the Almac or the Atlas). And this ranch does not appear on Google earth. The place nbentley1 found was San Antonio (AB) a small rancho on the road between the west coast north to Highway 1 at K257. This place is north of the new rancho discussed below. The Almac shows a place called Condornices, but that label is west of the present functional rancho. In the image below shows the existing roads with a loop to Antonio and back to the main road. In this image I show the Cal Topo version with an old version of the road. The road shown was very overgrown on my first trip, but now that left side of the loop is an easy drive. Next is a screen shot from my GPS showing the old version like Cal Topo The next image shows the roads near Rancho Condornices. The GPS call that place “San Antonio”. I put “Rancho Condornices” label there.

Just to confirm this, here are my GPS tracks from the trip

Baja Topographic Atlas Directory

Shows both names, same place


page B93 - scan is a little blurry eh?

The "Directory" also shows Codornices 10 miles or so west - with a slightly different spelling, leaving out the first "r"

John

Quote: Originally posted by Lance S.

Quote: Originally posted by 4x4abc   so, which location is Keda/La Hermosura - 1 or 2? 1 - 29°11'43.62"N, 114°19'1.05"W 2 - 29°11'15.69"N, 114°17'51.46"W Maybe david can show the location of the old rancho codornices. La Hermosura was at or near there I believe. It took Linck half an hour to reach it from aqua leon.

there are 6 ranchos in the vicinity
please fill in the names

here is what's in the INEGI database (last census)

Quote: Originally posted by 4x4abc

here is what's in the INEGI database (last census)

The last image Harald posted (last census) what is ladled Los Codornices is not the old ranch site in the palm tree oasis (which is the left pin).

Harald, we had threads about Agua Leon and Leon Grande... Both are between Punta Prieta and Los Codornices (San Antonio). They were important gold mining/ water supply points mentioned in the book, 'Long Walk to Mulegé' (a book from 1980 about a 1921 walking trip from San Diego by a pair of World War I vets).

Harald, you even made a map with both Leons on it...

On the 1971 Geology Map:

Los Cordonices [sic] is at the very top edge.
Punta Prieta is at the loser edge.
Leon Grande is midway between the two.


=====================================================================


On the 1948 Geology Map:

Leon Grande and Agua Leon are both shown.


===========================================================================


On the 1918 Goldbaum Map (1925 printing):

Chapala is at the top.
Codornices is below.
Agua Leon is next.
Leon Grande is at the bottom.



*It was Goldbaum's map that the guys in a 'Long Walk to Mulegé' used to navigate!

Quote: Originally posted by PaulW

Hi Harald, What is the source of the image? It shows faint green lines that must be roads or trails that are very interesting. And the more prominent roads do not look familiar. Quote: Originally posted by 4x4abc   here is what's in the INEGI database (last census)

Quote: Originally posted by Lance S.

Quote: Originally posted by 4x4abc   so, Keda is Codornices where and what is Kanin? Is Agua Leon Kanin? Aqua Leon is Kanin. Linck stopped there on the way from Yubay to Keda.

so,
we have:

El Sauce
San Antonio - Codornices (A)
Codornices Nuevo (B)
Agua de Leon - Keda (C)
Kanin (?)
Mina Leon Grande (X)
Mina s/n (Y)

NE of B is where Don Jose Cota (the owner of much of the area) lives?

does anyone have a name for the ranch site (has Corral and Pila) NE of Don Jose Cota's place? The northern most pin

Quote: Originally posted by Lance S.

North. Six hours from Yubay to Kanin. One and one half hours from Kanin to Keda.

Linck's Diary from the 1766 Expedition, in English

The 1766 Expedition diary was translated by Ernest J. Burrus, S.J. and published in 1966.

I will post the first few pages of the expedition diary and the map covering those days. These cover the sites of Kanin, Keda, Laguna Chapala, and San Luis:












['San Ignacio' (mentioned above) is not the mission to the south but here was a visita of Mission San Borja and today is Rancho San Ignacito.]

*Addition pages and the rest of the map available, upon request.

thanks David.

What always amazes me reading the old trip logs - these guys were tough as nails.
Linck's first day
33 Kilometers (21 miles) in 4 hours?
without a well maintained trail/road?
WOW!

Kanin to Keda (7.5 km as the crow flies) in one hour.
Wow again.

Quote: Originally posted by Lance S.

Quote: Originally posted by 4x4abc   Quote: Originally posted by Lance S.   North. Six hours from Yubay to Kanin. One and one half hours from Kanin to Keda. now we have to find that other Yubay Well, I don't believe there is another Yubay. While at Keda Linck mentions that it is the northern most point reached by the earlier Consag expedition. Apparently because of this, Dr. Ives, on who's opinion the map is based, assumed that Linck followed Consag's route up to Keda. This is what we get on the map. It was also a route Ives could follow in a car. This was in the 50's or 60's (?). In order to make that route work Ives decides that there must be another place called Yubay north east of Punta Prieta. He does not know where it is but it must be there or his proposed route doesn't work. Today with google earth and the baja almanac I think a strong argument can be made that Yubay was Yubay. It's pretty clear based on the times traveled between points and the site descriptions. Should probably start another thread.

Quote: Originally posted by Lance S.

Quote: Originally posted by 4x4abc   any online source? La Primera Entrada , Carlos Lazcano Sahagun (2000) contains the Spanish text of the expedition. Maybe David can ask if it is available online. He posted a link to Sahaguns publication of the Consag diary.

Ives shows Linck going west, then north... and incorrectly locates San Ignacio (Ignacito) to the north, as it was not visited by Linck.

Lance has solved the confusion by showing Linck going north, then west. Linck did not see San Ignacio (Ignacito) because it is to the west of San Borja, and he went north!

On the 1962 Gulick map, it is easy to see all the points except Agua Leon:





[Edited on 7-25-2021 by David K]

what I have so far
found most of the trail between San Ignacio and Las Cuevitas
found most of the trail between Codornices and Laguna Chapala
located the mountain pass mentioned
found all the water sources

Yubay is a tinaja up in a granite walled canyon, about a kilometer off the main El Camino Real route.

Here it is, on my map:


Access from El Desengaño.



Trail to Yubay, which is straight ahead.

Standing on the boulder ledge, above the water hole...

Tinaja de Yubay in July 2001 (low water level).
GPS: N29°10.69' W113°59.26' (WGS 84) elev. 2,059'

Neal Johns has some good photos when it was overfilled with water in Feb. 2003:


Note the fig tree on the rock to the left. That is what tells you that you have found the true Yubay!

IF they had taken the route north to Agua Amarga (close to Agua Higuera negating the comment that there is no water near Vimbet) then San Ignacio would have been to the west
there is no (meager) grass between San Borja and Agua Amarga
there is not even a glimpse of water anywhere
Agua Amarga has absolutely no grass
La Bachata does - water at La Bachata is bitter (agua amarga)
the terrain between Borja and Agua Amarga is very challenging
I doubt they could have done it in 7.5 hours
the terrain between San Borja and the disputed Yubay is easy
it has a well pronounced trail that is still visible today

IF they had taken the route to Agua Amarga and then to the known Yubay since the goal was to travel far north, it would have made more sense to continue to Calamajue with known water sources on the way
but Linck had explored that route already the year before
the known Yubay has no grass
the disputed Yubay does
traveling west from the known Yubay to Kanin is a much tougher route than from the disputed Yubay to Kanin

I suspect San Ignacio is not mentioned because it is so close to San Borja that it had no impact on the travel that day


[Edited on 7-26-2021 by 4x4abc]



[Edited on 7-26-2021 by 4x4abc]

all known water sources in the area

a good number is sweet and in reach
most are good water but tucked away
many are inconsistent
some will help you survive but are not pleasant

I created the data for the water sources
the majority is from sat images

Baja actually has a lot of water sources
but as the Jesuits already noticed, they are rarely in places where you could use the water

still working on San Pedro Martir
but this is what I have so far

.

Quote: Originally posted by 4x4abc

a good number is sweet and in reach most are good water but tucked away many are inconsistent some will help you survive but are not pleasant I created the data for the water sources the majority is from sat images Baja actually has a lot of water sources but as the Jesuits already noticed, they are rarely in places where you could use the water

Quote: Originally posted by 4x4abc

the beauty of this digital almanac is that everything is searchable (unlike the print/pdf versions) you can add/remove any group from your display searching for cemeteries in the El Triunfo-San Antonio area? go to El Triunfo select cemeteries gives you location, name, size, orientation, possible comments looking for the real Camino Real (not some scribble on a 1:100,000 map)? I have it recorded like the one between Londo/El Rosarito and Mulege the original 1705 route

how do you spot water on sat images?
ocean is easy - right?
due to space reflection it almost always shows as black

Aguajes, Pozas, Tinajas are a bit more difficult to find
they are always in a canyon
they have animal tracks going to and from if the water is drinkable

like the Tinaja below
it is 90 ft in diameter
it shows strong trails
it has some human activity close (Corral)
you won't find it on any map
it is not mentioned anywhere

another example
Arroyo La Palmilla (close to San Evaristo)
Aguajes (large Tinajas) show in black
the historical images in Google Earth allow an evaluation whether the water is temporary or permanent

thanks to the hyper building activities in BCS the sat images are almost photo realistic
there is no way to mistake water for something else
below Arroyo Agua Caliente close to Santiago

unfortunately images on Nomad are always blurry
go see the real thing in Google Earth
stunning