BajaNomad

San Jaunillo Ghost Galleon

BajaTed - 8-25-2021 at 02:41 PM

Which beach on the western coast of Baja in 1579 did the ghost galleon drift up upon??? The Ensenada museum is going to be showing artifacts found by Edward Van Porten soon.

https://www.amazon.com/Ghost-Galleon-Archaeology-California-...

mtgoat666 - 8-25-2021 at 03:02 PM

Quote: Originally posted by BajaTed  
Which beach on the western coast of Baja in 1579 did the ghost galleon drift up upon??? The Ensenada museum is going to be showing artifacts found by Edward Van Porten soon.

https://www.amazon.com/Ghost-Galleon-Archaeology-California-...



North of Guerrero negro, several dozens of miles, more or less.

These locations are kept confidential to keep scavengers from looting…

[Edited on 8-25-2021 by mtgoat666]

David K - 8-25-2021 at 03:05 PM

Not sure, but I will guess it was on Isla Arena??

motoged - 8-25-2021 at 05:25 PM

Quote: Originally posted by mtgoat666  



North of Guerrero negro, several dozens of miles, more or less.

These locations are kept confidential to keep scavengers from looting…

[Edited on 8-25-2021 by mtgoat666]


:lol::lol::lol: Got the GPS co-ords for that area?

John Harper - 8-26-2021 at 09:30 AM

Scavenging wrecks is as American as apple pie. Lots of communities along the eastern seaboard made livings off plundered wrecks.

John

David K - 8-26-2021 at 09:55 AM

The debris from the wreck was laying on the beach. Perhaps covered for hundreds of years. When it was discovered, archeologist Dr. Eric Ritter was called. I can't think of a better scenario to study and preserve the discovery. Now, we all can examine the past, better. I don't think this was quite a scavenging job, in the typical sense... Eric Ritter has several papers on Baja California and I have spoken to him over the phone about his work. A nice guy!

mtgoat666 - 8-26-2021 at 10:32 AM

Quote: Originally posted by David K  
The debris from the wreck was laying on the beach. Perhaps covered for hundreds of years. When it was discovered, archeologist Dr. Eric Ritter was called. I can't think of a better scenario to study and preserve the discovery. Now, we all can examine the past, better. I don't think this was quite a scavenging job, in the typical sense... Eric Ritter has several papers on Baja California and I have spoken to him over the phone about his work. A nice guy!


Dk,
Don’t be obtuse. INAH-authorized collection is OK. Collection by you constitutes scavenging/theft.

David K - 8-26-2021 at 10:56 AM

By me? I didn't collect anything... I don't even know where it was found. Don't be ridiculous.

BajaNomad - 8-26-2021 at 11:31 AM

http://forums.bajanomad.com/viewthread.php?tid=54044

http://forums.bajanomad.com/viewthread.php?tid=83282

BajaTed - 8-26-2021 at 11:45 AM

The Galleon & crews long return journey from the Philippines to NorCal and then down the length of Baja had the crew all dying off of Scurvy. The ship essentially drifted onto the beach and was slowly destroyed by storms is the current theory. The theory is supported by the degree of seaworm penetration into beeswax while the hull was intact for a year or so.

David K - 8-26-2021 at 12:13 PM

The links from Doug are to the shipwreck of the San Felipe. Did they re-identify the ship or is this a different ship?

BeemerDan - 8-26-2021 at 03:13 PM

Theres another one off the Oregon coast called the Beeswax wreck.
I don't think they've actually found it, Just some of the timbers, beeswax, and pottery shards.

David K - 8-27-2021 at 07:17 AM

Thank you, Lance.
Here is another online version of the Consag book: https://archive.org/details/lifeworksofrever00kons/

In Spanish, is this book about Consag by Carlos Lazcano (many photos and maps): http://www.archivohistoricobcs.com.mx/files/libros/pdf/Texto...

[Edited on 8-27-2021 by David K]

BajaTed - 8-27-2021 at 08:25 AM

Quote: Originally posted by David K  
The links from Doug are to the shipwreck of the San Felipe. Did they re-identify the ship or is this a different ship?


This is about the San Jauanillo

bajaric - 8-27-2021 at 09:24 AM

So where is it? I would like to sneak in there with my metal detector and dig up some artifacts to sell on the black market. Ha Ha just kidding, one of my in-laws is an archaeologist and she would kill me.

"Consag's wreck", described in Peterson's Baja Adventure Book, was found on "sand island" across from the old salt pier. In 1962 a couple of beach combers found a jug that was identified from photographs as made in Germany between 1690 and 1710. Peterson speculated that this was the wreckage of a Manilla galleon that Consag had observed on his voyage of exploration in 1751. The wreck site is off limits to treasure hunters.

David K - 8-27-2021 at 09:48 AM

Quote: Originally posted by BajaTed  
Quote: Originally posted by David K  
The links from Doug are to the shipwreck of the San Felipe. Did they re-identify the ship or is this a different ship?


This is about the San Jauanillo


I think the spelling is San Juanillo.

So two, very similar shipwreck stories?
San Felipe was a 1576 wreck: https://www.sfgate.com/bayarea/article/Ship-s-story-revealed... and http://www.bayareascience.org/calendar/index.php?eID=5488

San Juanillo was a 1578 wreck: https://oregoncoastmagazine.com/2019/11/05/ship-of-mystery/ and https://link.springer.com/chapter/10.1007%2F978-981-32-9248-...

I guess they are all popping up from under the sands of time. Nice that the sea hasn't risen enough to hide them longer!

Sunken treasure?

John M - 8-27-2021 at 01:42 PM

I emailed a friend who at one time was one of the top BLM officials in California. He was involved - and on site - for a while, during the research project involving the Ghost Galleon.

I hope to prod him for details of his work.

John M

advrider - 8-27-2021 at 01:56 PM

Very interesting reading.

John Harper - 8-27-2021 at 05:15 PM

Quote: Originally posted by David K  

I guess they are all popping up from under the sands of time. Nice that the sea hasn't risen enough to hide them longer!


On the contrary, the fact wrecks are becoming more uncovered is due to rising seas eroding the coastal dunes where wrecks get buried, and the depletion of river borne sand into coastal areas (dams, harbors, etc.) means less replacement as time goes on. Completely fits with rising sea levels and the predicted effects.

It all depends on the locality of each ship when it foundered as to how the wreck is buried. Rocky shoreline or near rivermouths or even big sand traps like Baja has near GN, etc.

John

[Edited on 8-28-2021 by John Harper]

advrider - 8-27-2021 at 06:07 PM

Anyone find anything cool in Baja with a metal detector? One of the new hobbies I'm looking at for retirement? My grandfather was an avid gold panner, prospector and metal detector. Lots of good memories all over the West with him.
Not trying to derail a thread so I can start another if this isn't on subject?

David K - 8-27-2021 at 08:47 PM

Isn't it wonderful that the sea level rises only where it is convenient!

How many boat launch ramps are now fully submerged? Any? Why not?
:light:

BajaNomad - 8-27-2021 at 09:40 PM

Quote: Originally posted by John Harper  
Quote: Originally posted by David K  

I guess they are all popping up from under the sands of time. Nice that the sea hasn't risen enough to hide them longer!


On the contrary, the fact wrecks are becoming more uncovered is due to rising seas eroding the coastal dunes where wrecks get buried, and the depletion of river borne sand into coastal areas (dams, harbors, etc.) means less replacement as time goes on. Completely fits with rising sea levels and the predicted effects.

It all depends on the locality of each ship when it foundered as to how the wreck is buried. Rocky shoreline or near rivermouths or even big sand traps like Baja has near GN, etc.

John



My recollection of the situation of the San Felipe (it's difficult to fathom there are two similar "shipwrecks" in... the same **exact** location attributed within two years of one another... 400 years ago... AND the lead "historian" [or whatever] for both today is Edward Von der Porten... just sayin') was that it wasn't being exposed by the shifting tide, but in the shifting sands in the wind. A lot of the items they've found were exposed after all this time up the beach in the dunes.

I suppose one could interpret that as tides being lower today than at the time, but who knows. It is what it is.

Agreed, very interesting stuff.




[Edited on 8-28-2021 by BajaNomad]

Ghost Galleon

John M - 8-28-2021 at 05:24 AM

Has anyone read the Ghost Galleon book shown in the opening of this thread?

John M

BajaNomad - 8-28-2021 at 01:35 PM

Quote: Originally posted by John M  
Has anyone read the Ghost Galleon book shown in the opening of this thread?

John M


Preview:

https://www.google.com/books/edition/Ghost_Galleon/WyfPDwAAQ...

BajaNomad - 8-28-2021 at 02:09 PM

Quote: Originally posted by David K  
The links from Doug are to the shipwreck of the San Felipe. Did they re-identify the ship or is this a different ship?


I've been able to spend a little more time with this.... and it looks like they changed their identification to the San Juanillo from the San Felipe a few years back.
Quote:

Posted by Michael Von der Porten
on Nov 10, 2019 at 6:00 pm

The identification of San Felipe was changed when further information on the fate of the San Felipe was found in archives.

The identification of the wreck is now San Juanillo of 1578.

https://www.almanacnews.com/square/2019/11/04/portola-valley...




More on this:

https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&pid=sites&srcid=Z...

The above doc is sourced from:
https://sites.google.com/site/manilagalleonlisting/






[Edited on 8-28-2021 by BajaNomad]

BajaNomad - 8-28-2021 at 02:20 PM

From earlier when it was believed to likely be the San Felipe... fyi.
--


The Manila Galleon in Baja California

For 12 years now, there have been several field seasons by American researchers and the Instituto Nacional de Antropología e Histoira (INAH) in the Pacific coast of Baja California, where thousands of pieces of Chinese porcelain dating to the sixteenth century, as well as coins, blocks of wax, and other objects, whose origin no doubt, is a Manila Galleon shipwreck have been documented (INAH 2005; INAH 2007; INAH 2009; INAH 2010). The porcelain collection is one of the most important in Mexico and opens a window into the early trade of the New Spain and Asia. In July 1751, the tireless Jesuit missionary Father Consag, in his explorations of Baja California records the site:
Quote:

By mid morning those who went to survey the spit of sand brought a bowl, a cup, a big cup, a plate of Chinaware and a good portion of white wax paste. They informed that the area is full of vases, large plates and the like, nails and pieces of iron that disintegrate into powder with contact, even the nails that are still tucked into the broken timbers; lead pieces can be found, several medium and small pieces of bronze, but what is more abundant and easily found is the wax. For lack of water they cannot stop for much time, because the nearest is very salty, and if it does not give thirst, it does not quench it. All these things, clearly indicate that in this sandy beach or contours, a vessel sank, which can even happen without a big storm, or because the coast is unknown (Ortega 1887:524).


Although there are historical records of the site, as the one above, it was ultimately the archaeological material found by beachcombers that led to the investigations by Maritime Historian Edward Von der Porter -who had analyzed the porcelain of the San Agustín- and organized the first site visit with Jack Hunter in the year 1999. So far, it has been concluded that the porcelain collection of 1500 sherds corresponds to a period between 1574 and 1576, placing it in the early part of the route (Von der Porten 2008). This led to the possibility that it could be one of the galleons lost in that period: Espiritu Santo, San Juanillo, San Felipe or San Antonio, making it very likely that it is the San Felipe of 1576 (Von der Porten 2010). Beside the rich porcelain and stoneware collection, other materials such as sheets of lead used to cover the hull have been documented - some with the remains of iron nails that testify to the spanish construction of galleons of the period (Von der Porten 2008:4). Also, wax blocks of up to nine kilograms, some analyzed in the laboratory to confirm that it is beeswax. These blocks contain important information in the form of three centimeter diameter holes made by worms. They give a clue as to the formation of the archaeological context as they would have needed to be submerged in the sea at least a year for the worms to eat the wax (Von der Porten 2010). Thus, the galleon in Baja with all the crew dead ran aground and remained stranded at least one year in the water until it broke and dispersed the materials on the beach (Von der Porten 2010). Furthermore, other interesting objects have been collected such as a plate of Chinese cloisonné, a compass gimbal, a sounding lead and a bronze figure of a Fu dog.


http://www.themua.org/collections/files/original/61b274c68e0...

BajaNomad - 8-28-2021 at 02:33 PM

The Archaeology of Manila Galleons in the American Continent

https://link.springer.com/book/10.1007%2F978-3-030-71524-3

(paid subscription required to access full info - fyi)

David K - 8-28-2021 at 02:53 PM

Thank you Doug... A historical mystery solved by Baja Nomad!

It was a bit odd how the San Felipe and San Juanillo wreck debris and location read the same!

Lance S. - 7-10-2024 at 05:50 PM

https://youtu.be/kGypmlW2BqA?si=58uQjEJQCUL4GLTE

bajaric - 7-10-2024 at 09:55 PM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LOE0N2SbP_0

David K - 7-11-2024 at 06:58 AM

:bounce::thumbup: