BajaNomad - Hiking from Santa Gertrudis to San Borja - Advice wanted

Please post any detail you come up with, also a trip report if you are able to make it happen. I would love to make that hike as well, but I can't until next year. If you want to do it a second time I would be in for sure.

Also looking to do from San Gretudis south at some point, when would you be interested in doing a section?

4x4abc - 11-1-2021 at 10:52 AM

Edie Littlefield probably has the best first hand information on that section

Fatboy - 11-1-2021 at 11:08 AM

Edie.... Did she write The Mission Walker?

Geoff...cool map, Thanks.

David, it is interesting all the 'side' routes to the ECR that there are.

3 days? That is pretty good since it appears to be 70 miles or more on the ground.

David K - 11-1-2021 at 11:08 AM

Edie Littlefield probably has the best first hand information on that section

Edie with Max Kurillo and I, a couple years ago.

Fatboy - 11-1-2021 at 11:11 AM

That is what I thought, her book is ordered and should be here in a few days!

David K - 11-1-2021 at 11:25 AM

That is what I thought, her book is ordered and should be here in a few days!

She was guided by locals, some were arranged by Trudi Angell, and was not always on the Camino Real but her story of surviving cancer is very intense!

Her Facebook page: https://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=636708426

Edie is or was walking across America... More on her other page: https://www.facebook.com/themissionwalker

TMW - 11-1-2021 at 03:39 PM

Fatboy there are some people that walked the ECR and did a website and marked all the way points. It would also be a good place to check out. I think they also marked the water sources.

http://caminorealbaja.com/

Fatboy - 11-1-2021 at 03:52 PM

Quote: Originally posted by TMW

Fatboy there are some people that walked the ECR and did a website and marked all the way points. It would also be a good place to check out. I think they also marked the water sources.

http://caminorealbaja.com/

Thanks TMW.

That is a go to site for location and they did a lot work to post all the waypoints and notes that they did. Even with all that there is little actual detail.

My biggest concerns are water sources and parking and shuttling from end to end.

What I am hearing is it will be a 3 to 5 day journey and there are a few spots they marked as H2O. Just wonder are they reliable year round water sources or seasonal?

advrider - 11-1-2021 at 04:36 PM

Also looking to do from San Gretudis south at some point, when would you be interested in doing a section?

I would for sure. I start the PCT March 17th 2021, doing the whole 2653 miles in one shot, hope to be done by September. After that I will be all in for any Baja hikes. I would figure about fifteen miles a day depending on how rocky it is, maybe more depending on water and heat. I'm sure my wife or others I know can help with running a shuttle. Water would be the big issue for sure.

[Edited on 11-1-2021 by advrider]

David K - 11-1-2021 at 05:42 PM

That is rough county, so 15 miles is probably a good estimate. Having a burro to carry water and gear may be wise, too?

Hoping to have some El Camino Real trail data, I had to refresh my memory of the route used by Graham and Misión (his burro) in the 1997 'Journey with a Baja Burro' (published at the end of 2000, as a 2001 book). Alas, Graham stayed to auto roads and went west to Rosarito from San Borja.

Let's see what Harry Crosby, on muleback, 25 years before Graham says... (to be continued)

Crosby's maps:

1974

1977

Fatboy - 11-1-2021 at 06:15 PM

Hope the PCT trip is enjoyable, a baja post trip hike can help keep the after trail blues away.

[Edited on 11-2-2021 by Fatboy]

Fatboy - 11-1-2021 at 06:18 PM

Quote: Originally posted by David K

That is rough county, so 15 miles is probably a good estimate. Having a burro to carry water and gear may be wise, too?

Hoping to have some El Camino Real trail data, I had to refresh my memory of the route used by Graham and Misión (his burro) in the 1997 'Journey with a Baja Burro' (published at the end of 2000, as a 2001 book). Alas, Graham stayed to auto roads and went west to Rosarito from San Borja.

Let's see what Harry Crosby, on muleback, 25 years before Graham says... (to be continued)

Was wondering about Crosby's route, seems to all be about the same routes, which is good!

mtgoat666 - 11-1-2021 at 08:15 PM

Quote: Originally posted by TMW

Talk to local ranchers to get info on water sources in their range areas. Perhaps spend a few days driving into or walking into a few ranches to inquire.

I doubt you will find any gringo or Internet forum sources for this area. rare for gringos to hike that part of baja for more than just a short day hike from the road.

TMW - 11-1-2021 at 09:20 PM

Fatboy I am willing help and I have a friend or two that may help too. I have a 2004 Tacoma 4x4 with a shell so throw what you need into it and away we go. Just need to work out where to meet. let me know as we get closer.

Fatboy - 11-1-2021 at 10:21 PM

Thanks, TMW!

Nomad search for Paraiso on El Camino Real

David K - 11-2-2021 at 06:25 AM

Quote: Originally posted by mtgoat666

Quote: Originally posted by TMW

Again, so very wrong.
Our own mule-riding Nomad, Baja Bucko, has been riding El Camino Real since I met her in 2001.

Harry Crosby's excellent historical journey book, The King's Highway in Baja California, details the difficulty of this section of the mission road. In particular, El Paraiso, a 1,200 foot deep canyon that the Camino Real drops down to and back up from.

Baja Bucko wrote about her friend falling here and had to be extracted... Maybe search Nomad for the story? Found it in May 2005...

In Feb. 2009:

Quote: Originally posted by Baja Bucko

I think I've ridden (mules) and a little bit backpacking- (that when I was a hippie in 1972) abt 90% of ECR from El Rosario to Loreto. Yes there are places where modern roads overlay places but for the most part this "road" was never intended for wheels and by 1900 the "main" path of travel was leaving El Camino Real for easier routes. There is the absolutely fascinating feeling to struggle and climb ( and pray that the mule stays upright!!!) and mule feet picking back and forth up and down cuestas only to find at the top of a mesa a perfectly-cleared rock-lined "road" I could drive a minivan on-for a 100 feet or so and then wham! back to the miles of worse-than-a-goat-trail to head down incredible rocky steep (reminiscing El Paraiso!!) and feel so gleeful that I lived to tell the tale! After every trip even wearing "armor" I still have spines popping out of me for months.

I have recvd many emails from people just thinking that hay-let's just backpack it and they have no clue that you need a local vaquero (he always knows when & where the water is this year) and when the trail becomes split in several same but not directions due to different uses at different times over the past 300 years-taking the WRONG path can get you dead or found wandering as dehydrated lion bait. Granted GPS has opened up a new world but its a lot of big country down there and there aren't forest service signs telling you how far it is to the next waterhole or THAT part of the trail is totally impassable 2 hours from where you are standing. ECR is NOT a park service thing-for the most part it is very wild country with many parts of the trails rarely seeing anyone except a cowboy every couple of years looking for cows or goats.

Last year I was sitting at a table sharing lunch with Harry Crosby and I toasted him and made it clear to his wife and all present-it was HIS FAULT that I was horribly addicted to Baja California and El Camino Real. I think he got a kick out of that!!!

In May 2013:

Quote: Originally posted by Baja Bucko

I have ridden (mule) El Infierno many times in the SSF and much of ECR in this range, also all of it from San Casimero north to almost El Rosario; south of Ian Ignacio from Guajademi to San Javier.

I don't have time at this moment but will try to get back regarding many questions here. By far with the problems age, lack of use and chubascos bring, El Paraiso is one of the worst parts.......(Sta Gertrudis to San Borja)....even Harry had a hiccup or two there.

In June 2016, I wrote an article about El Camino Real Cuestas (switchback grades): https://www.bajabound.com/bajaadventures/bajatravel/cuestas_...

"The Paraíso Canyon was a 1,200’ plunge for El Camino Real that began at 28⁰31.560’, -113⁰38.220’ (3,400’) and then a climb back out 2.3 miles up the canyon, past a ranch that began as a mission farm for San Borja, in the 1760s. Just two miles beyond the north rim of the canyon, El Camino Real comes to Las Cabras where the Spanish first saw snow in California, at an elevation of 4,000 feet."

In 2008, I posted the route from San Borja south to Santa Gertrudis, using satellite images and Baja Almanac maps... ignore the Photobucket watermark: http://forums.bajanomad.com/viewthread.php?tid=36002

In 2011:
SANTA GERTRUDIS TO SAN BORJA

As in the previous section (San Ignacio to Santa Gertrudis), more than one trail was the Camino Real. This first description will be the route traveled by Serra (probably) and Harry Crosby, known as the 'Paraiso route' by Howard Gulick.

The old camino goes straight northwest from Santa Gertrudis to RANCHO LA UNION then just west of MESA CALMALLI VIEJO and MESA SANTA CRUZ to RANCHO TRES PALMAS.

The trail from Tres Palmas was sandy as it follows the ARROYO SAN SEBASTION (called Arroyo Tres Palmas by Crosby), but becomes rocky as it climbs up the sierra to RANCHO SAN SEBASTION.

The Camino Real again climbs and goes through a pass just west of San Sebastion then follows the west edge of Arroyo San Sebastion on a mesa where Crosby reports a grand view back to Scammon's Lagoon.

EL RANCHO is reached, seen on the edge of the map. EL RODEO is the next place mentioned by Crosby and the trail next reaches the edge of the great canyon of ARROYO PARAISO.

The Camino Real was steep where it dropped off the mesa and required an hour of rock moving by Crosby and company to rebuild washed out portions. They reached the bottom and traveled up the canyon to RANCHO EL PARAISO.

A quarter mile beyond Rancho El Paraiso is the grade to the top of the north side of the canyon. LAS CABRAS then COMPOSTELA are passed as this route of the Camino Real goes north to reach MISION SAN BORJA.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

In May 2005, Neal Johns posted:

Baja Bucko's story:

On Easter Sunday I rode out of Mision Santa Gertrudis on El Camino Real for a 10 day journey back in time with the destination of Mision San Borja.

As we finished packing the animals and mounted up we had a crowd of Mexican holiday visitors watching the proceedings in amazement. The mules are taking you where? A few came up and asked to take pictures. They could not believe that we were doing such a thing-after all you can drive there by getting back on the highway and getting to the road up north! So here we were-gringos and the Mexican tourists were taking our pictures.

: Sort of funny if you think about it...then when the pack train finally arrived in San Borja-via the fun and harrowing excitement of the famed El Paraiso-more Mexican cameras clicking away in disbelief. The civil engineer working at Mision San Borja absolutely could not believe that we arrived by mule from Santa Gertrudis. He asked each of my friends "How did you get here?" and each friend said by mule from Santa Gertrudis. He refused to believe them. Then when he asked me and I repeated their answers his eyes opened wide and his mouth dropped. He repeated the same question again and I repeated my answer. Then he was silent. After a very very quiet minute or so he asked me "WHY?"

: I held my hand over my heart and I answered "Mi corazon" .......I explained that the ancient foot trails of El Camino Real were the real treasures of Baja California as are the Californio families who have lived in that incredible country for over 250 years. He smiled and asked my age. I said over 50. He nearly died in amazement again and said that as a young man he could do it but now at 35-he was too old.

: Life is way too short I told him and you've got to do what you dream while the body parts still function. He laughed. They took more pictures of the dirty exhausted crazy gringos who arrived from so far with a bunch of tired pack animals, one human injury (excluding the zillions of espinas and cuts and scrapes!) and tales to tell.

: PS When I finally got my injured friend to a hospital in San Diego-7 days after her fall from a horse in the dark as a loose pack mule flew into it going down down down El Paraiso-the hospital people could NOT believe this person had to ride for 5 days w the hand and arm injury she had along with the two day drive to San Diego. Oooh, but the ear-to-ear grin I had on my face looking like a real drunk because such are the tales and treasures of that land that lies so dear to my soul.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
In Feb. 2004:
EL CAMINO REAL in Baja (Part 7), Santa Gertrudis to San Borja

Baja Almanac pages 25, 23, 22:

As in the previous section (Sam Ignacio to Santa Gertrudis), more than one trail was the Camino Real. This first description will be the route traveled by Serra (probably) and Harry Crosby, known as the 'Paraiso route' by Howard Gulick.

The old camino is shown in the Almanac as it goes straight northwest from Santa Gertrudis to RANCHO LA UNION then just west of MESA CALMALLI VIEJO and MESA SANTA CRUZ to RANCHO TRES PALMAS.

The trail from Tres Palmas was sandy as it follows the ARROYO SAN SEBASTION (called Arroyo Tres Palmas by Crosby), but becomes rocky as it climbs up the sierra to RANCHO SAN SEBASTION.

The Camino Real again climbs and goes through a pass just west of San Sebastion then follows the west edge of Arroyo San Sebastion on a mesa where Crosby reports a grand view back to Scammon's Lagoon.

Now on Almanac page 22:

EL RANCHO is reached, seen on the edge of the map. EL RODEO is the next place mentioned by Crosby and is shown in the Almanac before the (shown) trail reaches the edge of the great canyon of ARROYO PARAISO.

The Camino Real was steep where it dropped off the mesa and required an hour of rock moving by Crosby and company to rebuild washed out portions. They reached the bottom and traveled up the canyon to RANCHO EL PARAISO.

A quarter mile beyond Rancho El Paraiso is the grade to the top of the north side of the canyon. LAS CABRAS then COMPOSTELA are passed as this route of the Camino Real goes north to reach MISION SAN BORJA.

bajaric - 11-2-2021 at 07:42 AM

That is a very remote area! I would think that local knowledge of where water could be obtained would be essential, perhaps hire a guide?

One possible water source is San Sebastion. Gabb, in his account of traveling from San Ignacio to San Borja noted an abandoned prospecting camp with an arrastra at San Sebastion, indicating there was water available. On the other hand, that was in 1867!

advrider - 11-2-2021 at 08:18 AM

I think a burro would be a good move for safety of having extra water. A guide would be a good bet as well, safer is better, its very remote. My Spanish isn't good enough to gather much intel but visiting some local ranches would be a good move as well.
Very nice offer TMW, that would be a big help. This would be perfect trip to help recover from the PCT. Very interested in everyone's input and knowledge.

David K - 11-2-2021 at 08:34 AM

For sure, a mountain-ranch guide would be essential to guaranteed success.
Because none of them are on Baja Nomad, we can help Fatboy with the data we have here. I will send Baja Bucko and email and see if she would like to add anything.

bajaric - 11-2-2021 at 09:01 AM

There was water at regular intervals along the trail back in missionary times. The question is, are these water sources still there or have they dried up?

I guess you could just wing it and carry enough water to get to the next water hole, plus enough to turn around and go back where you started in case it was dry. GPS track, inreach, etc so you did not get lost, water in multiple containers in case one leaks.

Me, I like a truck full of gear, ice chests, a comfy bed, and little short day hikes.

edit Gabb's account of the trail from Santa Getrudis to San Borja is included in J. Ross Browne s epic "Resources of the Pacific Slope" on page # 855 pg. 103-105 search babel.hathitrust. org

Water was found at Calmalli Viejo, San Sebastion, and "Agua de la Cabra" along the route. Gabb said there was a 20 miles gap without water between Calmalli Viejo and San Sebastion, in 1867.

[Edited on 11-2-2021 by bajaric]

David K - 11-2-2021 at 09:34 AM

Quote: Originally posted by bajaric

There was water at regular intervals along the trail back in missionary times. The question is, are these water sources still there or have they dried up?

I guess you could just wing it and carry enough water to get to the next water hole, plus enough to turn around and go back where you started in case it was dry. GPS track, inreach, etc so you did not get lost, water in multiple containers in case one leaks. But you knew all that already, eh fatboy, from the epic fat bike expedition to Salispudes.

Me, I like a truck full of gear, ice chests, a comfy bed, and little short day hikes.

ya, I think I am in that category too! I really hope Fatboy can do this as it will be very exciting to follow. If he wishes me to, I will again post his updates and map locations... and if not, I will alert all if he needs assistance... just like others with inReach or Spot devices who have me in their contacts.

Paulina - 11-2-2021 at 01:31 PM

This has been an interesting thread to read along with, thanks David for sharing your input. I will be riding from Rancho San Gregorio up to Mina San Juan in a couple of weeks. I also have planned to ride some of the Camino Real after working radio relay up on the mountain top for BFG.

I have ridden much of the range surrounding San Borja and RSG in the past three years, helping with the cattle round up. The vaqueros knew where the springs were located, where to refill canteens. I drink the ranch water without an issue, but was cautioned not to drink from the water out on the range.

Fatboy, if you are open to having a guide I can ask my friend from RSG if he would be interested or maybe know someone who would. I can imagine the questions he might have such as compensation for the guide, do you speak Spanish, would you need pack animal(s) or are you planning to pack your own supplies, water, food, emergency locator, sat phone, transportation from your desitnation back to San Borja and if pack animals are used, will you arrange for transportation of the animal with the guide? That's just a few off of the top of my head.

Feel free to u2u me.
P>*)))>{

4x4abc - 11-2-2021 at 01:36 PM

I have a database of all water sources and all branches of Camino Real in the area
you are welcome to have them

HOWEVER, I would highly recommend hiring local guides to steer you to the water sources that actually have water when you are on your way.

Paulina - 11-2-2021 at 01:49 PM

I have a database of all water sources and all branches of Camino Real in the area
you are welcome to have them

HOWEVER, I would highly recommend hiring local guides to steer you to the water sources that actually have water when you are on your way.

"...that actually have water..."
Good point. Water isn't a guarantee. There has been very little rain, a drought that has killed most of the free range livestock.

P>*)))>{

advrider - 11-2-2021 at 05:18 PM

This is fatboys gig but I am very interested in the hike as well and possible share recourses and costs? With water being 8 3/4 pounds per gallons its not practical to pack more then 7-8 liters unless you have an animal. With cool temps you are looking at 1-liter per 5 miles, more if it's very rocky.
Could be a small margin for error if you miss a water source and have to burn time and energy looking for it. A guide would be a huge safety net.
Anyone else looking to do some hiking in Baja please let me know if you want company, or send me a U2U..

Fatboy - 11-2-2021 at 08:40 PM

Quote: Originally posted by David K

That is rough county, so 15 miles is probably a good estimate. Having a burro to carry water and gear may be wise, too?

Well I am going to have my daughter along.....

Fatboy - 11-2-2021 at 09:01 PM

Quote: Originally posted by mtgoat666

Your right Mtgoat, I should do more than some internet search and the locals will know their areas very well. Bad part is I won't have the time and even worse is it isn't my style

.

Going to do what I usually do on these trips and just wing it, and one of these days it is going come back and smack me....

I remember wanting to kayak the Rio Grande river in Big Bend, but you have to have permits to do it. We went to the ranger station and the ranger wanted to know how skilled we were. All I could do is shrug because it isn't like there is standard test for this kinda stuff.

All I could do is rattle off what we have done in the past, and before I finished he interrupted me and said we well be fine.

I sort of treat hiking like that and the hikes are get pretty rough and remote now and some day I will misjudge something seriously and there will be consequences...

[Edited on 11-3-2021 by Fatboy]

Fatboy - 11-2-2021 at 09:24 PM

Well, I read David's, Paulina's and the others AFTER my post to Mtgoat. Again, this is still in the planning stages. My spanish is nil, a few words really. Am I against a local guide? No, but I am certainly not for one either.

I have read about Paraiso already and was pondering that challenge too.

I have done some very remote desert hiking in Utah with only a few known water sources over many square miles, and as noted water is heavy and you can only pack so much.

Up on the Kairparowits Plateau in July with only 1 water source It is easy to find the limits of what a person can, or worse, cannot do. No trails, no back up water source, no help, in 105 degree weather with just the water I could carry and covering almost 30 miles it made me wonder just how stupid I am.

Well, the research goes on.

[Edited on 11-3-2021 by Fatboy]

advrider - 11-3-2021 at 06:11 AM

Fatboy, I like your style! Hope to hike with you next year. Maybe re-hike that route if you do it this year or find something new? Good luck and I will be following along.

4x4abc - 11-3-2021 at 09:55 AM

I am lost
you want to wing it
you want no assistance
why exactly are you posting?

Fatboy - 11-3-2021 at 10:46 AM

I am lost
you want to wing it
you want no assistance
why exactly are you posting?

I want BETA on a trail, not a guide. Big difference between ASSISTANCE and ADVICE.

I am asking for info on the trail, not to be guided down the trail.

By 'winging it' I mean get as much data/beta/advice on the trail ahead of time, then making a decision to go/not go.

If I wanted a guide I would have started the thread with LOOKING FOR GUIDE....

Now, those water sources you have documented :biggrin:

see my U2

[Edited on 11-3-2021 by Fatboy]

Fatboy - 11-3-2021 at 10:52 AM

Received a very nice email from the folks over at CAMINOREALBAJA.COM.

I will share it on here when I get a chance.

Fatboy - 11-3-2021 at 10:55 AM

Here is what I sent them....

Hi Genevieve & Kevin,
My daughter and I are looking into hiking a section of the Camino Real in Baja in early January 2022 and was looking for some advice and David Kier suggested we email you folks.

I have downloaded your KML tracks from your website which will be very helpful.

I was wondering if I could ask the two of you some questions?

We are looking to hike the section between San Borja and San Gertudis and was wondering the following....

How many days would it reasonably take? I know there is a lot of variables just looking for ballpark idea.

Parking and leaving vehicles at the 'trailheads'? We have been to San Borja several times and believe that end is safe and possible, what about at San Grertudis?

Finally, water sources. I see a couple of H2O waypoints and was wondering if they are reliable year round sources?

Any information will be helpful and also I understand if you guys don't have time to respond.

Thank You
John

Fatboy - 11-3-2021 at 11:23 AM

And here is their response.... I hope they don't mind me posting it here ... but it was a very helpful response and it answered several of my questions and it confirmed things I had already planned on....

Hello John,

That is great that you two are planning to tackle a section of El Camino Real. In all of our years exploring ECR, we have encountered exactly 0 other hikers and very few local ranchers. You two will likely be alone for most of the trip.

Have you hiked any of ECR in the past? Some people think that it must be like other trails, but it is not. Much of ECR has had very little use for 170 years. That means that it is mostly overgrown with various plants and the top surface of the trail has eroded away in many places leaving miles of rocks. We wear full leather boots for the support they give and the protection we get from cactus spines. Also, we wear long leather gloves and each of us keeps mini-pliers handy to remove cholla clumps. Water is the greatest concern. We have had to carry up to 3 gallons each on some previous trips. Also, I (Kevin) once came to a well known tinaja (think of a large water basin) on a solo trip and found that it was completely dry. I was counting on that water to get me to the next source 2 days away.

We are not trying to frighten you away. In fact, we really want other people to get out on the ECR and explore. You are talking about doing a hard section of the trail and we want to warn you that you should have experience before tackling this segment.

We can recommend several other backpacks along ECR lasting from 3 days to a week that would be great introductions to the trail. These would provide you with the experience and knowledge to take on the tougher segments.

You have already done the first part in preparation of a trip by downloading the waypoints. We often carry 2 gps units since they will play an important part in navigating the trail. Without this tool you will often have problems finding the path at all. Keep in mind that ECR is no longer a continuous trail. You will often walk long distances without seeing any sign of it and then when you do. it could be very subtle!

You ask how long it will take to hike from Santa Gertrudis to San Borja. Since we don't know your hiking speed and what load you'll be carrying on your back, that is hard to answer. For us, unsupported by mules, it would take a week. Of course, we try to stick to the original mission trail and that takes extra time and effort.

Santa Gertrudis has been safe for us in the past when we left cars there. In fact, we will be doing this again in December.

Reliable water sources? With the weather changes we are experiencing, we hesitate to say that any water source is totally reliable. We generally make efforts, when possible, to check out the sources we plan to use before backpacking a certain section. Sometimes we plant water and food containers along the route. Much of the trail from Santa Gertrudis to San Borja is remote and very tough to check out the sources. We have not been in that area for a while and have not heard about the water availability. Ranches are a safe bet, but once you leave Rancho Los Corrales and start heading farther back into the mountains, there are no more active ranches for quite a while.

We hope that you can get something useful out of this reply.

Take care,

Genevieve and Kevin

Fatboy - 11-3-2021 at 11:33 AM

A couple of things they said fit perfectly with what I was thinking.

I was planning on TWO gps units along with some phones, but when it really matters I trust the ruggedness and reliability of my GPS over the phones any day.

They said pliers for cholla.... already had experience with that and agree 100%.

Depending on what I come up with water sources, I had planned on packing at least 2 gallons of water, with more being considered.

There is one dirt road I was considering stashing some water at.

They said a week, not sure if they mean 5 day work week or 7 day week. Was thinking 5 or 6 days already so close there.

The confirmed that Santa Gertrudis (my misspelling in my original) should be safe to leave a vehicle at.

gps

John M - 11-3-2021 at 11:57 AM

John, the phone gps with a back-up is great.

No doubt with your research you've found how to use gps without internet. The one we use is GAIA - We have it on an android tablet as a back up to our Lowrance vehicle mounted unit. I made an acquaintance of a fellow who downloaded a route using GAIA (a 130 mile trek) onto his phone and used it reliably for the entire distance. Keeping the phone charged for a week or so is another challenge to deal with. GAIA for Baja? not certain which maps are best but it has been discussed on Nomad before. I think "Paul W" knows about that. With a paid subscription to GAIA you have more layers available - not just the topo which comes with the free GAIA membership.

Thanks for posting Kevin's reply - solid information.

John M

PaulW - 11-3-2021 at 12:38 PM

A single big screen phone with your trail and map installed surely should be adequate. Get a Lion battery pack to recharge your phone. The one I have has two connections, usb-c and lightning. If these connections don’t work for your stuff, then buy an adapter. I have an adapter to charge my handheld multiband radio from that same power pack.
I am pretty new to the phone gps, but I think most all the maps can be loaded with your track to follow. For sure Gaia works. Lots of folks do map with track and no layers. I like a minimum of a topo layer and road layer.
Study up on how to get water from the local plants (cactus) like many desert hikers do.
BTW the newer vehicles have Apple play of Android and use the same details as your phone and has on a bigger screen for your driving. No more stand alone gps.

David K - 11-3-2021 at 12:44 PM

Super intel!
Kevin has always been a good sport about sharing! When I asked him if he would like his waypoints used to plot the trail on the new Benchmark Baja Atlas, he was all 'thumbs up'!

About tinajas, often they appear dry but the water is just below the surface (hopefully). You may see evidence of animal digging... sometimes called a 'coyote well'. Animals smell hidden water and instinctively dig down to it.

I saw this at one famous tinaja near the Golfo El Camino Real, Tinaja de Santa María. Arthur North wrote about it in his 1910 Camp and Camino book (misnaming it Santa Marita, as I recall). Baja Atlas page 47, E-7. I was there twice, and it was dry on top, but there was coyote wells there. Neal Johns was with me the first time (2001) and mentioned that feature. No, we did not dig further to see water.

Photo from my second visit, New Years 2003... My son is coming back from the tinaja on his motor bike. The tinaja (de Santa María) is at the base of the boulder, in the sand pile... a waterfall here during rain storms is how the tinaja is recharged. The pointy mountain (hazy) to the west, is Cerro La Sandia (1,795 meters), Baja Atlas page 46, E-6.

David K - 11-3-2021 at 12:49 PM

Speaking of phone GPS, the digital Benchmark map ($19.99) is on the free Avenza app. It will show your GPS location on the map, which accurately has the El Camino Real (ECR) routes (from Kevin and Genevieve) plotted.
https://www.avenzamaps.com/maps/1250162/baja-california-atla...

PaulW - 11-3-2021 at 12:58 PM

Trouble is Avenza wont work with the phone map apps for use with apple play or Android. Never the less installed in your phone is a winner.
Highly recommended.

[Edited on 11-3-2021 by PaulW]

4x4abc - 11-3-2021 at 02:22 PM

just a reminder

Fatboy - 11-3-2021 at 03:01 PM

Quote: Originally posted by John M

John, the phone gps with a back-up is great.

No doubt with your research you've found how to use gps without internet. The one we use is GAIA - We have it on an android tablet as a back up to our Lowrance vehicle mounted unit. I made an acquaintance of a fellow who downloaded a route using GAIA (a 130 mile trek) onto his phone and used it reliably for the entire distance. .... I think "Paul W" knows about that. With a paid subscription to GAIA you have more layers available - not just the topo which comes with the free GAIA membership.

Thanks for posting Kevin's reply - solid information.

John M

My concerns is ruggedness, we will have a phones and we have a paid subscription to GAIA already. With that said I am bringing the Garmin GPS's units for peace of mind.

I used the GAIA and the phone on some recent hikes including a 75 miler through Glacier National Park and it was nice and had lots of cool features.

1884 Map

David K - 11-3-2021 at 03:43 PM

Here is the Santa Gertrudis to San Borja area with the Camino Real as a main route of travel (pre-automobile).

The rest of the map is very interesting and shows how old many of the place names are.

John Harper - 11-3-2021 at 04:20 PM

I presume you're bringing some kind of satellite emergency device, like a Spot or InReach? Since I'm always hiking/backpacking for trout, I don't worry about water sources. But, it sounds like that is an issue not to be "winged", even in January. Dehydration is a serious issue, as that family up in Northern California succumbed on a day hike!

Sounds like a great adventure for sure, I wish you great luck and great experiences! You'll definitely be one of few to walk that trail since, who knows?

John

[Edited on 11-3-2021 by John Harper]

Fatboy - 11-3-2021 at 04:47 PM

Quote: Originally posted by John Harper

I presume you're bringing some kind of satellite emergency device, like a Spot or InReach? Since I'm always hiking/backpacking for trout, I don't worry about water sources. But, it sounds like that is an issue not to be "winged", even in January. Dehydration is a serious issue, as that family up in Northern California succumbed on a day hike

John

[Edited on 11-3-2021 by John Harper]

I do not own an emergency locator... that family along the Merced river that you mention seems odd to me but who knows......

Some folks are taking the 'winging' it comment way too far :?:

my comment was "Going to do what I usually do on these trips and just wing it,"

What I usually do on these trips is get all the information I can and then if I decide to go, I go. I am "winging" it because some of the sh!t I do involves no trails in remote areas with no permanent, reliable water sources and many times only 1 water source is shown in dozens of square miles.

So that is the "winging" part of it, little to no hard data, just enough info to either believe it will work out or put me in serious trouble and that is where my back up plans come in to play or if the risk is too large I call it off.

I am not naive to back country, off trail, desert travel in areas with very little water.

So, please, take that comment in context.

I get it, it is dangerous, there is no help if something goes wrong, there is very few sources of water and they are not sure bets that they will even have water in them, not to mention all the other hazards and that it could KILL me.

Please, helpful advice is greatly appreciated, even warnings of the dangers are very helpful but.....

Skipjack Joe - 11-3-2021 at 05:21 PM

I have been photographing that area quite a bit. There has been a severe drought in the last couple of years. The normally green agaves are all withered and yellow, barely hanging on. Some of the smaller variety of desert plants are just dried up husks. Usually I see cattle hoof prints all around tinajas. If Paulina says that all the free ranging cattle in the area have died that tells me the tinajas are dry because that's about the only thing that would account for that. That would be cause for concern. However, this was all true through the beginning of summer and I seem to remember some storms this September. Things could have changed.

PaulW - 11-3-2021 at 05:42 PM

fboy,
You really should carry a locator. I take my inreach everywhere I go. There are all kinds of circumstances when it is good to contact someone.
You can turn off the monthly charges when you are not out in the wilderness.
One gps device with the map with your track and a charger is plenty. 2 gps's means more power used for the charger with no value added.
Been kicking around Baja for many years and never had a handheld gps fail. Trouble is if you leave it on for many days in a row then you need a charger. Now switching to an iphone and expect the same reliability.

wilderone - 11-3-2021 at 06:29 PM

You really must read Edie's book. She describes the "trail" that has not been used in decades all overgrown with cactus - her clothes got ripped up, etc. It will give you a sense of what to prepare for - even if you don't encounter it, you should be prepared. And you mentioned, "burro] would be a good move for safety of having extra water". Burros have personalities and can be stubborn and run off and get sick and need food/water. It would be great to have a burro for food and water, but if you do this, I'd suggest at least a couple weeks to pick one out and learn how to handle it. Graham can help you on this, I'm sure. Sounds like a great trip.

David K - 11-3-2021 at 06:53 PM

Edie called me just over an hour ago about something else, so I did tell her about Fatboy's quest. She is more than happy to communicate with him and I will send him her email.
She said getting guides at the ranches is critical to success and survival. Fatboy, I will get you the info in the morning.

Fatboy - 11-3-2021 at 07:53 PM

Quote: Originally posted by Skipjack Joe

I have been photographing that area quite a bit. There has been a severe drought in the last couple of years. The normally green agaves are all withered and yellow, barely hanging on. Some of the smaller variety of desert plants are just dried up husks. Usually I see cattle hoof prints all around tinajas. If Paulina says that all the free ranging cattle in the area have died that tells me the tinajas are dry because that's about the only thing that would account for that. That would be cause for concern. However, this was all true through the beginning of summer and I seem to remember some storms this September. Things could have changed.

That is not good news, for me and for the locals....

Fatboy - 11-3-2021 at 08:16 PM

Quote: Originally posted by PaulW

fboy,
You really should carry a locator. I take my inreach everywhere I go. There are all kinds of circumstances when it is good to contact someone.
You can turn off the monthly charges when you are not out in the wilderness.
One gps device with the map with your track and a charger is plenty. 2 gps's means more power used for the charger with no value added.
Been kicking around Baja for many years and never had a handheld gps fail. Trouble is if you leave it on for many days in a row then you need a charger. Now switching to an iphone and expect the same reliability.

I agree with the fact having contact at almost any time and place is safer.
As to the 2 GPS's units along with smart phones with mapping apps, it is certainly overkill but really doesnt add much weight but adds a level of safety that I would want on a trip like this.

I have owned and used GPS units since 1995 and have only 1 failure in 25 years. In 10 years of cell phones I have had several fail. My GPS are Garmin Etrex, light, durable and will run for several days on one set of AA batteries.

Plus folks over at CAMINOREALBAJA.COM also use 2 GPS units.

Fatboy - 11-3-2021 at 08:23 PM

Quote: Originally posted by wilderone

You really must read Edie's book. She describes the "trail" that has not been used in decades all overgrown with cactus - her clothes got ripped up, etc. It will give you a sense of what to prepare for - even if you don't encounter it, you should be prepared. And you mentioned, "burro] would be a good move for safety of having extra water". Burros have personalities and can be stubborn and run off and get sick and need food/water. It would be great to have a burro for food and water, but if you do this, I'd suggest at least a couple weeks to pick one out and learn how to handle it. Graham can help you on this, I'm sure. Sounds like a great trip.

Edie's book is on the way, ordered last week. Looking forward to reading it even if the trip doesn't pan out.

Burro isn't gonna happen on this trip, for the reasons you pointed out and other reasons.

Fatboy - 11-3-2021 at 08:28 PM

Quote: Originally posted by David K

Edie called me just over an hour ago about something else, so I did tell her about Fatboy's quest. She is more than happy to communicate with him and I will send him her email.
She said getting guides at the ranches is critical to success and survival. Fatboy, I will get you the info in the morning.

Thanks, David.

Fatboy - 11-3-2021 at 08:43 PM

Based on CAMINOREALBAJA.COM email response the backpacking this section is doable.

It would be one of the harder sections and it does depend on current water conditions. This year does not sound like a good year for water based on what several people have posted here.

Going to keep researching and looking for more information.

4x4abc was kind enough to offer to email his data on water sources in baja, so with his info, the waypoints from CAMINOREALBAJA.COM, and historical reports from David K and others I should be able to cross reference the more well known sites and perhaps locate some other possible sources.

4x4abc - 11-3-2021 at 11:41 PM

the center section between Rancho Los Corrales and Rancho La Compostela is without any outside road access
and it is the one with the least reliable water
about 35 miles
Rancho La Campostela to San Borja is 8 miles without water
Santa Gertrudis to Rancho La Union is 18 miles without water
Rancho La Union to Calmalli Viejo is 4 miles without water
water in Calmalli Viejo is uncertain
next source would be Rancho Nuevo - 9 miles

advrider - 11-4-2021 at 07:08 AM

Might be worth doing some recon from each end this year and then put it all together next year? Might end up with a good winter and some reliable water next year?

Fatboy - 11-4-2021 at 08:34 AM

the center section between Rancho Los Corrales and Rancho La Compostela is without any outside road access
and it is the one with the least reliable water
about 35 miles
Rancho La Campostela to San Borja is 8 miles without water
Santa Gertrudis to Rancho La Union is 18 miles without water
Rancho La Union to Calmalli Viejo is 4 miles without water
water in Calmalli Viejo is uncertain
next source would be Rancho Nuevo - 9 miles

Thanks for this, need to spend some time on google earth and looking at maps to pencil all this in.

The 35 mile stretch is do able if EVERYTHING ELSE falls in to place. Including good weather, decent section of trail in that area, and reliable water sources on both ends, among other things....

There is not much room there for any errors or problems.

Fatboy - 11-4-2021 at 08:45 AM

Might be worth doing some recon from each end this year and then put it all together next year? Might end up with a good winter and some reliable water next year?

Possibly, received another email from the folks over at CAMINOREALBAJA.COM
with some encouraging news.

Will post it up later.

Fatboy - 11-4-2021 at 08:51 AM

FYI as ADVRIDER surely knows, there are long sections of the PCT without water, in the 30 mile range also.

Fatboy - 11-4-2021 at 10:16 AM

i had a follow up questions for the folks at CAMINOREALBAJA.COM ....

Thank for the detailed response! I seen your post/picture about Yubay and having been there myself I can imagine the feelings you guys must have had upon arriving and not seeing any water!
Your pieces of advice confirmed a lot of what I was thinking already, 2 GPS's, pliers (and other thorn removal items), stashing water, and the fact that there will be many portions without a visible trail.

We have do lots of back country trips with a portion of them being cross country in the desert with no trails, so hopefully this go well.

Two final questions, if I may....

Dropping down/climbing out of El Paraiso (sp?) , the southern rim appears to be a cliff with a trail through it that maybe washed out...anything on that?

And finally, any thoughts or preferences on going north to south or south to north?

Again, Thank You for your time,
John

Fatboy - 11-4-2021 at 10:18 AM

Here is their response.... the last paragraph can make a big difference....

The trail through the cliff band at El Paraiso should be fine for foot traffic. There was some slight trail reconstruction there in 2015 so that mules could pass through.

I think that going from south to north might be preferable because of the simple fact that you'll be placing a car at San Borja on your way south and then driving to Santa Gertrudis. Otherwise, you will need to do some extra driving. As far as the trail goes, I don't think there will be much difference.

By the way, we already planned to be in the area we are discussing in late November/early December. I think we will be able to find out about the water situation and pass it on to you when we return a little before Christmas.

advrider - 11-4-2021 at 10:26 AM

WOW, that last part could be a game changer for you. You are correct about some of the dry stretches on the PCT, 30- 40 miles but often times now there are water caches that people maintain. Still have to have the ability to haul what you need just incase.
Super excited for you to make this hike and maybe share your tracks after, I would love to retrace your steps in the future.

Fatboy - 11-4-2021 at 10:34 AM

Quote: Originally posted by lencho

...stashing water...

Note about water caches: I have personal experience with Coyotes getting into plastic water containers for their contents, make sure any water cache is animal-proof.

My concerns to....

4x4abc - 11-4-2021 at 11:05 AM

Two final questions, if I may....

Dropping down/climbing out of El Paraiso (sp?) , the southern rim appears to be a cliff with a trail through it that maybe washed out...anything on that?

And finally, any thoughts or preferences on going north to south or south to north?

Again, Thank You for your time,
John

Edie's report is the most recent
there is a workable trail
but one needs to find it
difficult because of overgrowth (north side always has more vegetation)
don't worry - I have a good GPS track

David K - 11-4-2021 at 11:16 AM

2015 is when Edie did her mule-walking trip through El Paraiso Canyon.
Harry Crosby's assistant did a lot of work on the south rim drop off when he was working on research for The Call to California (c1968) and The King's Highway book (c1974).

The cover photo of The King's Highway in Baja California is the drop off into Paraiso Canyon...

Paulina - 11-4-2021 at 01:32 PM

I was told today that Rancho Colmena and Rancho Compostela both have potable drinking water. There has also been Covid at both ranches.
I may be riding to/ passing by Compostela in a couple of weeks.

P>*)))>{

Fatboy - 11-4-2021 at 01:55 PM

Quote: Originally posted by Paulina

I was told today that Rancho Colmena and Rancho Compostela both have potable drinking water. There has also been Covid at both ranches.
I may be riding to/ passing by Compostela in a couple of weeks.

P>*)))>{

Thank You for that!!!

You clearly spend time in the area... I have a question (for everyone, also) ....

Is there a little something I can bring as gifts for the more isolated Rancho's .... maybe salt? Sugar? Coffee? Candy? Aspirin? Just something kinda light and small but would be nice? Remember we would be backpacking....

4x4abc - 11-4-2021 at 02:24 PM

I vist remore ranchos a lot

what they love the most:
lighters
brushes
cloth for embroidery
paper
marker pens
in that order

see how the guy clutches his new brush?

John Harper - 11-4-2021 at 03:24 PM

Tootbrushes might be welcome and easy to pack.

John

Fatboy - 11-4-2021 at 03:39 PM

Brushes..... like cleaning brushes ?

Lighters, Pens, markers would be easy to carry.... was thinking matches...

Paulina - 11-4-2021 at 03:48 PM

I am at a planning meeting with my RSG friends now. I showed 4x4's list to my friend. She was nodding her head as she read the translated list, then when she got to the embroidery item her eyes lit up! She also said coffee and aspirin would also we a welcome gift. She said lighters as well as matches are great. She also said "Zote" brand bar soap for clothes. Needles and thread. (I'm typing as she talks)

P>*)))>{

Paulina - 11-4-2021 at 03:56 PM

You clearly spend time in the area.......

I do. I'm the second from the left...

David K - 11-4-2021 at 04:02 PM

Quote: Originally posted by Paulina

I am at a planning meeting with my RSG friends now. I showed 4x4's list to my friend. She was nodding her head as she read the translated list, then when she got to the embroidery item her eyes lit up! She also said coffee and aspirin would also we a welcome gift. She said lighters as well as matches are great. She also said "Zote" brand bar soap for clothes. Needles and thread. (I'm typing as she talks)

P>*)))>{

So wonderful!

4x4abc - 11-4-2021 at 05:05 PM