BajaNomad

Can I Keep a Turtle Shell?

100X - 1-15-2022 at 11:37 AM

I found this on the beach!

Is it okay to take out of Mexico?
Is it okay to take into the US?
What is the best way to clean and protect/finish it?

Disclaimer: no sea turtles were harmed in the making of this post.

900A9E0B-FFB2-45B8-BC20-3A023F0BAE89.jpeg - 157kB

boe4fun - 1-15-2022 at 11:41 AM

Leave only footprints, take only pictures....

[Edited on 1-15-2022 by boe4fun]

Cancamo - 1-15-2022 at 11:46 AM

Would not want to get caught with it, either side of the border.

BajaBlanca - 1-15-2022 at 12:13 PM

What they said, BAD news if you get caught.

John Harper - 1-15-2022 at 12:13 PM

If you scroll down this page, it says no turtle based products or imports.

https://travel.state.gov/content/travel/en/international-tra...

Excerpt from page:

Watch out for the following prohibited items (this is an illustrative list):

"All products made from sea turtles"

I would assume the shell would also be prohibited.

John



[Edited on 1-15-2022 by John Harper]

RnR - 1-15-2022 at 01:57 PM

A few years ago we were in secondary at Tecate. CBP was in the process of arresting the guy two stalls over. Led him away in handcuffs.

I asked our agent what was going on. She pointed to the two turtle shells laying on the ground next to his open trunk and said, "He claimed that he didn't know they were turtle shells. He said that he thought they were wood carvings".

JZ - 1-15-2022 at 03:03 PM

Pack it In your suit case under your underwear.

mtgoat666 - 1-15-2022 at 03:36 PM

Quote: Originally posted by JZ  
Pack it In your suit case under your underwear.


A felony if you get caught. Anyone want a felony on their record?

I doubt any CBP inspector is going to let you off with a warning…

Lee - 1-15-2022 at 03:48 PM

Quote: Originally posted by JZ  
Pack it In your suit case under your underwear.



Not a serious response. What if OP were arrested?

Hiding the shell will look guilty if found. Stay away from turtle shells.

JZ - 1-15-2022 at 04:12 PM

Be sure its dirty underwear and you'll be fine.





[Edited on 1-15-2022 by JZ]

David K - 1-15-2022 at 04:23 PM

Who remembers the menus at Boll Weevil hamburger restaurants, painted on a turtle shell? I went to the Boll Weevil's in Escondido regularly back in the 70s-90s. Of course Green Turtle shells are not 'legal' to have anymore... even if from a turtle that died before they were endangered.

EDIT... just search Google!

Boll Weevil Menu.jpg - 119kB

[Edited on 1-15-2022 by David K]

4x4abc - 1-15-2022 at 04:55 PM

I found many many Borrego skulls over the years
gave them all to Coco
one seems to have made it into my garden

borrego 800.jpg - 185kB

Don Pisto - 1-15-2022 at 05:05 PM

Quote: Originally posted by 4x4abc  
I found many many Borrego skulls over the years
gave them all to Coco
one seems to have made it into my garden



ever see a desert tortoise?

4x4abc - 1-15-2022 at 09:00 PM

Quote: Originally posted by Don Pisto  
Quote: Originally posted by 4x4abc  
I found many many Borrego skulls over the years
gave them all to Coco
one seems to have made it into my garden



ever see a desert tortoise?


I have been laughing about those for more than 10 years
as you know I am in the desert often
I thought they were an environmentalist invention

and then I saw one crossing the trail
and another one
by the end of the day i had seen 5
Johnson Valley

and that was it
haven't seen one the last 20 years

but I can confirm they exist

JZ - 1-15-2022 at 09:06 PM

Quote: Originally posted by 4x4abc  


I have been laughing about those for more than 10 years
as you know I am in the desert often
I thought they were an environmentalist invention

and then I saw one crossing the trail
and another one
by the end of the day i had seen 5
Johnson Valley

and that was it
haven't seen one the last 20 years

but I can confirm they exist


Pics?

Don Pisto - 1-15-2022 at 09:25 PM

Quote: Originally posted by 4x4abc  
Quote: Originally posted by Don Pisto  
Quote: Originally posted by 4x4abc  
I found many many Borrego skulls over the years
gave them all to Coco
one seems to have made it into my garden



ever see a desert tortoise?


I have been laughing about those for more than 10 years
as you know I am in the desert often
I thought they were an environmentalist invention

and then I saw one crossing the trail
and another one
by the end of the day i had seen 5
Johnson Valley

and that was it
haven't seen one the last 20 years

but I can confirm they exist

how many had Checkers stickers on their backs? :spingrin: I remember back in the late 80's they built the foot high tortoise fence along the 14 highway, wonder if its still there?

4x4abc - 1-16-2022 at 04:08 AM

Quote: Originally posted by JZ  
Quote: Originally posted by 4x4abc  


I have been laughing about those for more than 10 years
as you know I am in the desert often
I thought they were an environmentalist invention

and then I saw one crossing the trail
and another one
by the end of the day i had seen 5
Johnson Valley

and that was it
haven't seen one the last 20 years

but I can confirm they exist


Pics?



in one of the many boxes of slides somewhere in the garage

msteve1014 - 1-16-2022 at 05:57 AM

Checkers stickers? Thats funny, they did seem to be everywhere, years ago.

I saw 2 tortoise in one day, north of Mojave (no stickers).

One started to move as I stepped over him. Scared the h*ll out of me. I thought I was stepping over a stone in the sand wash.:o

Jack Swords - 1-16-2022 at 06:52 AM

Many many years ago I spent a week kayaking on Magdalena Bay out of San Carlos. After exploring the islands and mangroves we found turtle slaughter sites with many intact shells. I strapped one to my kayak to take home to use in my biology class. As we unloaded our stuff from the kayak (with lots of friendly local help), one person commented on the shell (carapace) and told another to get the "esposas". Not in my vocabulary, I asked why "wives" and with usual Mexican humor held his hands out like his wrists were connected. Not uncommon to be the butt of Mexican humor, we all had a good laugh, they loaded my stuff (holding up and commenting on each) and helped me with the kayak and loading the turtle shell (carapace).
I took my chances with the bored folks at the border hoping to talk my way out of penalties or maybe lose the shell. I have gone through the "dance" to legally import orchids and even salt-water fish from the Yucatan, and have found most officials have good days and bad. I had a good day, the carapace made a great display in my classroom.

Would I try this today? Not a chance, not even with dirty clothes hiding it.

John Harper - 1-16-2022 at 07:26 AM

I had a pet desert tortoise as a kid. He'd disappear sometimes for a year or so, then one of our neighbors would find him in their garden and return him. I think we moved during one of his disappearances, so it's entirely possible he's still alive somewhere in the old neighborhood.

John

pacificobob - 1-16-2022 at 08:16 AM

We had a neighbor [he later became a US senator] as kids who had 3 huge ones.
The smaller of us rode them a time or two.

boe4fun - 1-16-2022 at 09:08 AM

I have been laughing about those for more than 10 years
as you know I am in the desert often
I thought they were an environmentalist invention

and then I saw one crossing the trail
and another one
by the end of the day i had seen 5
Johnson Valley

and that was it
haven't seen one the last 20 years

We had 3 when I was a kid - Timmy, Tammy, and Oscar. Every morning they’d come from the backyard up to the back porch and patiently wait for my mother to come out and give them lettuce.

John Harper - 1-16-2022 at 09:52 AM

Quote: Originally posted by boe4fun  
I have been laughing about those for more than 10 years
as you know I am in the desert often
I thought they were an environmentalist invention

and then I saw one crossing the trail
and another one
by the end of the day i had seen 5
Johnson Valley

and that was it
haven't seen one the last 20 years

We had 3 when I was a kid - Timmy, Tammy, and Oscar. Every morning they’d come from the backyard up to the back porch and patiently wait for my mother to come out and give them lettuce.



Timmy? That was the name of mine! He (?) used to love malva, a weed that grew in the orchards.

John


[Edited on 1-16-2022 by John Harper]

100X - 1-16-2022 at 12:06 PM

I appreciate all the responses. Because there was a little disparity I reviewed the US Code on the matter (16 USC sections 1361-1407) and it was pretty interesting.

Disclaimer...Not legal advice, but...

The Code seems mainly directed at "taking" endangered marine species, such as the sea turtle, and especially where done for profit or sale. As statutes do, of main pertinence for this discussion, it addresses definitions, then prohibitions and penalties.

Noteworthy definitions:
"Marine Mammal"...includes "any part of any such marine mammal" [shells would indeed be included].
"Take" is to "harass, hunt, capture, or kill" or attempt to do these things.

There is a Moratorium section covering the "taking and importing" although it is unclear if it applies where one either takes or imports, or only if both are done in conjunction. "Importing" is not defined in these statues, but likely is elsewhere.

There is also a Prohibitions section which primarily prohibits "Taking" and, separately, "Importation of Illegally Taken Mammals."

There is of course a Penalties section, allowing up to a $10,000 fine for each offense, then the following subsection:

"In any case involving an alleged unlawful importation of a marine mammal or marine mammal product, if such importation is made by an individual for his own personal or family use (which does not include importation as an accommodation to others or for sale or other commercial use), the Secretary may, in lieu of instituting a proceeding under paragraph (1), allow the individual to abandon the mammal or product, under procedures to be prescribed by the Secretary, to the enforcement officer at the port of entry."

So, no surprise, the law is long, convoluted and confusing. There is of course a lot more than what I have tried to boil it down to, and an energetic prosecutor could no doubt make one's life miserable.

However, I did not "take" these marine mammals, and have no intent to sell or make a profit off them.

So...I just might not be washing my dirty underwear for a while...or I may just not even try to conceal it at all (actually them as I found another one in the local dump--that one is smaller but appears to be a hybrid "Eclipse" shell)!

100X - 1-16-2022 at 12:09 PM

And Harald, I definitely want one of those too!

Also, nice garden, by the way!

[Edited on 1-16-2022 by 100X]

surfhat - 1-16-2022 at 01:20 PM

Would not the all to obviously empty and aged tortoise shell have some legitimacy to own? Just asking.

I would never take the chance myself. I do not need another dust collector on my display shelf.

These gentle water beings deserve our everlasting respect. They are far from alone among the many species we Baja lovers are privileged to experience when we have the chance.

Peace, love and fish tacos hardly covers the appreciation we all share in our love for Baja.

Some, I dare say most, of our members are truly treasured for their love of Baja. You know who you are.







Marine Mammal?

AKgringo - 1-16-2022 at 01:32 PM

Quote;.... "Noteworthy definitions:
"Marine Mammal"...includes "any part of any such marine mammal" [shells would indeed be included].
"Take" is to "harass, hunt, capture, or kill" or attempt to do these things."
_______________________________________

That wouldn't apply to turtles, although I am sure that there is some other statute that applies to them. At least I hope so!


[Edited on 1-16-2022 by AKgringo]

100X - 1-16-2022 at 02:15 PM

Good point AK--guess I looked right past the obvious:?: Will continue research.

100X - 1-16-2022 at 02:39 PM

From NOAA:

Relevant Laws
Sea turtles and Hawaiian monk seals are protected under the Endangered Species Act (16 USC 1531 et seq.). Monk seals are also protected under the Marine Mammal Protection Act (16 USC 1361 et seq.). These laws prohibit unauthorized “take”, whether by killing, injuring, or capturing the animal or by other acts of harassment. Additionally, feeding or attempting to feed a wild monk seal (or any marine mammal) is also prohibited. However, we know that unintentional interactions (hookings and entanglements) can occur when fishing, even when fishermen take steps to avoid them. The Fishing Around Seals and Turtles (FAST) program was developed via a multi-agency partnership that includes NOAA Fisheries, the Hawaiʻi Department of Land and Natural Resources (DLNR) Division of Aquatic Resources (DAR) and Division of Conservation and Resource Enforcement (DOCARE), expert fishermen, and the Hawai'i Fishermen's Alliance for Conservation and Tradition (HFACT). Participants in State of Hawai'i managed fisheries, must comply with both federal and Hawaii State fishing regulations.

Will also look at the ESA, but looks like may be a similar approach. Will follow up.

100X - 1-16-2022 at 03:32 PM

It looks like 16 USC section 1538 applies:

§ 1538. Prohibited acts
16 USC 1531-1544 Endangered Species Act
(a) Generally
(1) Except as provided in sections 1535 (g)(2) and 1539 of this title, with respect to any endangered species of fish or wildlife listed pursuant to section 1533 of this title it is unlawful for any person subject to the jurisdiction of the United States to—
(A) import any such species into, or export any such species from the United States;
(B) take any such species within the United States or the territorial sea of the United States;
(C) take any such species upon the high seas;
(D) possess, sell, deliver, carry, transport, or ship, by any means whatsoever, any such species taken in violation of subparagraphs (B) and (C);
(E) deliver, receive, carry, transport, or ship in interstate or foreign commerce, by any means whatsoever and in the course of commercial activity, any such species;
(F) sell or offer for sale in interstate or foreign commerce any such species; or
(G) violate any regulation pertaining to such species or to any threatened species of fish or wildlife listed pursuant to section 1533 of this title and promulgated by the Secretary pursuant to authority provided by this chapter.

If I am reading it correctly, because the turtle was not "taken" and is not for sale/in commerce (these are the two real focuses of the Act), it is fine for me to possess it, even in the US.

The potential for problems seems only related to its being imported into the US, but the rest of the Act is a bit confusing on this.

(I also read in another statute the feathers of wild birds are problematic).

[Edited on 1-16-2022 by 100X]

wilderone - 1-16-2022 at 04:08 PM

16 USC § 1532(8) The term “fish or wildlife” means any member of the animal kingdom, including without limitation any mammal, fish, bird (including any migratory, nonmigratory, or endangered bird for which protection is also afforded by treaty or other international agreement), amphibian, reptile, mollusk, crustacean, arthropod or other invertebrate, and includes any part, product, egg, or offspring thereof, or the dead body or parts thereof.

100X - 1-16-2022 at 05:11 PM

16 USC section 1532 (8) does say that, but only "endangered species" as defined in section 1532 (6) (or listed per the provisions of 1533 and also the CITES Treaty) get the real protections of the ESA, including the prohibitions and penalties of 1538 and 1540, respectively.

It is just not very noble to watch what appears to be a rare hybrid Green-Loggerhead shell sitting unappreciated and deteriorating in a smelly trash yard next to scallop shells and wahoo carcasses and all manner of rusting and degrading metal and plastic items. I am really on the fence on this.

[Edited on 1-17-2022 by 100X]

John Harper - 1-16-2022 at 05:27 PM

Maybe leave it at a friend's place, so you can save it, and always visit it when in Baja?

Clean it up and hit it with some marine grade urethane, might bring back some of the color. You're not procuring it for the local natural history museum.

John

[Edited on 1-17-2022 by John Harper]

BigWooo - 1-17-2022 at 05:16 AM

If you are looking for turtle shells, come to San Juanico. Went on a long walk on the beach. Average is 1-3 dead turtles per mile.

Skipjack Joe - 1-17-2022 at 08:42 AM

The fishermen here in Asuncion will still 'harvest' turtles when they come across them out in their pangas. Privately. My son was invited to a turtle meal two weeks ago by my neighbor.

fishmaster - 1-17-2022 at 09:35 AM

FYI "take" according to the F&W Service is any contact what-so-ever! This includes making contact with an endangered species, like you shouldn't even touch one.
I would NOT try to bring this shell back across the border unless you are willing to pay the consequences. It is definitely, unquestionably illegal to possess.

100X - 1-17-2022 at 11:20 AM

I am not “looking for shells.”

I have posted what look to be the relevant statutes.

“Harassment” indeed is a prohibited “taking.” But I see no support that one can either harass or take something that has been long dead.

Likewise, the cited statute does not make possession of an endangered species part illegal UNLESS illegally taken, and those situations are set forth in the cited statutes (and do not apply here).

As noted, the import is illegal, maybe.

Feel free to cite the law itself in response. There are certainly pages and pages of it. Otherwise my legal citation is probably more accurate.

mtgoat666 - 1-17-2022 at 11:41 AM

You cannot legally collect/possess live or dead endangered species. You should quit scrounging for a reason to do something illegal, just admire the shell on the beach, and leave it be.

From USFWS https://www.fws.gov/endangered/permits/faq.html

"The Endangered Species Act (ESA) makes it unlawful to import or export; deliver, receive, carry, transport, or ship in interstate or foreign commerce in the course of a commercial activity; sell or offer for sale in interstate or foreign commerce; take (includes harm, harass, pursue, hunt, shoot, wound, kill, trap, capture, or collect any wildlife within the United States); take on the high seas; possess, ship, deliver, carry, transport, sell, or receive unlawfully taken wildlife; remove and reduce to possession any plant from areas under federal jurisdiction; maliciously damage or destroy an endangered plant on areas under federal jurisdiction; and remove, cut, dig up, or damage or destroy any endangered plant in knowing violation of any state law or regulation or in the course of a violation of a state criminal trespass law.* These prohibitions apply to live or dead animals or plants, their progeny (seeds in the case of plants), and parts or products derived from them."

Also from USFWS https://www.fws.gov/home/feature/2007/seaturtles2.pdf

All seven sea turtle species are protected under the Convention on
International Trade in Endangered Species of Wild Fauna and Flora
(CITES) – a global agreement through which the United States and
more than 170 other nations work together to safeguard animal and
plant resources from unsustainable trade.

• Animal and plant species are listed on three different “appendices” under CITES and receive different levels of protection depending on the viability of wild populations.

• Sea turtles are listed on Appendix I of the treaty, meaning that
commercial trade is generally prohibited.

• Six sea turtle species are listed as endangered or threatened under the U.S. Endangered Species Act (ESA).

• The hawksbill, Kemp’s ridley, and leatherback sea turtles are
considered endangered throughout their ranges. Endangered means
that a species is considered at risk of extinction.

• The loggerhead sea turtle is listed as threatened (meaning that it is likely to become endangered).

• Specific populations of two other species – the green sea turtle and the olive ridley sea turtle – are listed as endangered, with all other populations considered threatened.

• Under the ESA, it is generally illegal to kill a listed species or to
import, export, or sell it in interstate commerce.

• A seventh species – the flatback sea turtle, which is native to Australian waters – is not listed under the ESA, but is protected under the CITES treaty.

• Many countries around the world – including Mexico – also have laws that protect sea turtles from harvest and commercial use.

100X - 1-17-2022 at 12:27 PM

Goat, don’t gloat! You haven’t added anything to the discussion.

The Fish and Wildlife Service, who is partially in charge of enforcing the statutes, provided a FAQ to try and boil them down.

I don’t think anything posted is different than what I posted.

And possession, in the US, is not always prohibited, and does NOT appear to be prohibited under these circumstances.

Again…the real issue here is the import of the thing.

Cancamo - 1-17-2022 at 01:45 PM

Settled,

Get yourself legal representation, on both sides of the border, and bring it back to hang the wall, or place in the yard........if it doesn't end up in an evidence locker.

100X - 1-17-2022 at 01:47 PM

Goat, don’t gloat! You haven’t added anything to the discussion.

The Fish and Wildlife Service, who is partially in charge of enforcing the statutes, provided a FAQ to try and boil them down.

I don’t think anything posted is different than what I posted.

And possession, in the US, is not always prohibited, and does NOT appear to be prohibited under these circumstances.

Again…the real issue here is the import of the thing.

elgatoloco - 1-18-2022 at 04:59 PM

Quote: Originally posted by Cancamo  
Settled,

Get yourself legal representation, on both sides of the border, and bring it back to hang the wall, or place in the yard........if it doesn't end up in an evidence locker.


x2
settled

mtgoat666 - 1-18-2022 at 05:10 PM

Quote: Originally posted by 100X  
Goat, don’t gloat! You haven’t added anything to the discussion.

The Fish and Wildlife Service, who is partially in charge of enforcing the statutes, provided a FAQ to try and boil them down.

I don’t think anything posted is different than what I posted.

And possession, in the US, is not always prohibited, and does NOT appear to be prohibited under these circumstances.

Again…the real issue here is the import of the thing.


You were warned.
Do what you want.
Good luck!

fishmaster - 1-18-2022 at 07:30 PM

You might look up information on CITES if you still think it is no big deal.
I say go for it...what have you got to loose:/

mtgoat666 - 1-18-2022 at 08:12 PM

Quote: Originally posted by fishmaster  
You might look up information on CITES if you still think it is no big deal.
I say go for it...what have you got to loose:/


If he is rich and retired, then he may not care about a felony conviction, eh? In CA his voting rights will be restored after he completes his sentence.
Perhaps he has lots of time on his hands he thinks a few months in prison will be an “adventure.”
Let him do it, it will make for an entertaining trip report :lol::lol::lol::lol: (can you post to nomad from prison? Do inmates have computer access?)