BajaNomad - Is this an authentic silver mission cup?

Is this an authentic silver mission cup?

David K - 6-29-2022 at 11:11 AM

Someone reached out to me to ask what I thought. They included the notes with the cup, purchased in the late 1970s from Mama Espinoza. Mama told the buyer that the cup was found in the muddy banks of the river after a flood event...

I have sent the photos to Baja archeologists and historians. Maybe more eyes on it will shed additional light. Does silver tarnish like this or is it another metal, pewter?

The history in the note is a bit off...

bajatrailrider - 6-29-2022 at 11:19 AM

how cool is that WOW

AKgringo - 6-29-2022 at 02:11 PM

Silver will definitely tarnish like that. It could be polished, but that would probably hurt the value of the cup.

RFClark - 6-29-2022 at 11:37 PM

David,

Take a look at this cup in the link.

https://www.1stdibs.com/furniture/dining-entertaining/sterli...

Some of the details including the riveted handle are similar.

LancairDriver - 6-30-2022 at 12:14 AM

Quote: Originally posted by RFClark

David,

Take a look at this cup in the link.

https://www.1stdibs.com/furniture/dining-entertaining/sterli...

Some of the details including the riveted handle are similar.

Nice find. Probably is silver and the design is almost identical. Was probably a popular Pacifico mug back in the day.

David K - 6-30-2022 at 07:46 AM

Similar but different... let's compare:

El Rosario cup:

Bolivian cup:

El Rosario cup:

AKgringo - 6-30-2022 at 07:49 AM

Yeah, thanks a lot! I looked at the "1stdibs" link a while ago, and now it is following me on my morning internet search.

Damn those cookies!

mtgoat666 - 6-30-2022 at 07:52 AM

You might get further studying the hallmark. You cup appears to have hallmark G.M.
Some of the more widely-known hallmarks can be googled up. Not sure about more obscure hallmarks, may need an appraiser or ungooglable research for that.

pacificobob - 6-30-2022 at 08:42 AM

Check for blood stains from the indigenous folks who labored as slaves to mine the silver. Have a great day.

freediverbrian - 6-30-2022 at 10:05 AM

I tried to look up silver mark ,could not find anything ,the marks on bottom look crude not like the English or Spanish of 1700 or 1800s . Maybe local made?

pacificobob - 6-30-2022 at 10:17 AM

Quote: Originally posted by David K

Closing your eyes to the past does not change what happened. We should learn as much as we can from the artifacts that are discovered. Knowledge should trump ignorance.
Maybe research silver mines of Bolivia?
I wrote a little about the silver mines of Baja California... there is much more to the story... https://www.bajabound.com/bajaadventures/bajatravel/real_de_santa_ana[/rquote

I just prefer not to celebrate slavery and genocide by ignoring just how that cup came to exist. Of course i may be wrong. Perhaps the silver was mined by happy, well compensated workers laboring under the loving supervision of the kindly padres whose only motivations was love of fellow man.

David K - 6-30-2022 at 10:43 AM

Quote: Originally posted by freediverbrian

I tried to look up silver mark ,could not find anything ,the marks on bottom look crude not like the English or Spanish of 1700 or 1800s . Maybe local made?

Maybe...? Thanks for looking!

Quote: Originally posted by pacificobob

I just prefer not to celebrate slavery and genocide by ignoring just how that cup came to exist. Of course i may be wrong. Perhaps the silver was mined by happy, well compensated workers laboring under the loving supervision of the kindly padres whose only motivations was love of fellow man.

Bob, showing or discussing historical objects does not celebrate slavery or genocide.
If you want to include that possibility into a discussion... great. Start a thread in the political or history forum for that subject.

Here, I am helping a person (who is not a Baja traveler or Nomad) identify the cup for its age, value, rarity by sharing the photos with all of you Nomads. People helping people, and not condemning some actions from hundreds of years ago.

By all means, begin your own thread on this slavery & genocide subject and I will add anything I may have to share.
May the Woke be with you!

[Edited on 6-30-2022 by David K]

bajaric - 6-30-2022 at 11:42 AM

I'm being followed by a cookie of Bolivian silver!

It is easy enough to do a test for silver. Of course, you do not want to damage the item, so it should only be done by a jeweler and no, do NOT clean and polish it.

[Edited on 6-30-2022 by bajaric]

Don Pisto - 6-30-2022 at 12:08 PM

missed the Antiques Roadshow in Woodside by a week...

4x4abc - 6-30-2022 at 12:52 PM

the foliage handle is stylized and indicates mainland Spain origin of the 1700's
the more elaborate foliage handle of the other cup indicates south American origin of about the same time
the lower part of the handle is very specific and is only found on some examples from Spain

mtgoat666 - 6-30-2022 at 12:57 PM

Quote: Originally posted by David K

Bob, showing or discussing historical objects does not celebrate slavery or genocide.

Depends on the object, and intent, eh?

Silver and gold from 18th century sometimes has questionable moral basis, as colonial Spain was looting indigenous treasures, and in many places running mines with indigenous slave labor.

RFClark - 7-1-2022 at 09:51 AM

Harold,

My thought is that if the story of the cup’s origin is accurate it is probably older than the mission in Baja. If as you suggest the design speaks of Spanish origin the cup was probably sent to the Mission from the parent order in Spain.

I base my older origin thoughts on the simple and rather crude construction methods employed. It could be a relic of the order. In that case the order’s records might mention it’s trip to the New World.

The Vatican Library might be helpful or even interested in the cup!

RFClark - 7-1-2022 at 09:59 AM

Goat,

Let’s do testing to see who has genes from humanoids predating ourselves divide up the race’s assets and give it to them as reparation!

The past is built on a mountain of bodies! If any are guilty than all are guilty! Even you!

David K - 7-1-2022 at 10:02 AM

It may have been made in Mexico (mainland) or Bolivia (or elsewhere in Spanish America)? Of course these areas were all part of Spain until the early 1800s.

Mexico was a Spanish colony with craftsmen since the 1500s.

Your find on 1stdibs was really interesting even if not the same cup.

RFClark - 7-1-2022 at 10:31 AM

David,

Additional Thoughts on the origins of the cup.

1) the handle may have a different origin as it might have been pre-made. It looks to be an investment casting.

2) Most monasteries and Missions had metal-smiths. The stamped letters could be initials! Smiths were very important so perhaps records.

3) The solder attaching the bottom probably will tell a lot about the cup.

mtgoat666 - 7-1-2022 at 11:39 AM

It is a nice curio, and probably worth less than $1,000, so just use it as nick-knack-decoration around the house. I would shine this cup up a bit and use it as a coin cup or pen/pencil holder.

Alternatively, you could return it to where it was found, bury it deeply, and let it be an adventure for someone to find it again 100 years from now.

Beware, the cup could be cursed, as it may come from a time when the owner of this cup was drinking vino from it while whipping his slaves to build the mision bigger, taller and faster!

[Edited on 7-1-2022 by mtgoat666]

RFClark - 7-1-2022 at 04:32 PM

Goat,

We’re all cursed not the cup! That’s why we’re all here! The cup has a story. It would be interesting to hear some of it. You’ll never hear the story hiding under your bed unless you read it here!

mtgoat666 - 7-1-2022 at 04:44 PM

Quote: Originally posted by RFClark

Goat,

We’re all cursed not the cup! That’s why we’re all here! The cup has a story. It would be interesting to hear some of it. You’ll never hear the story hiding under your bed unless you read it here!

It could be the holy grail, eh?

https://youtu.be/w_A8F2cI5io

JDCanuck - 7-1-2022 at 07:07 PM

On the subject of silver mines and the history of Mexico...try visiting San Sebastion on the mainland inland of Puerto Vallarta and getting the historical scoop from the local historian. Fascinating history surrounding old Mexico silver mines and why they were closed down. Nothing similar was available at El Triunfo or other sites we visited.

RFClark - 7-1-2022 at 07:12 PM

If the cup was made in Spain and the silver mined there slaves would have still done the work.

freediverbrian - 7-1-2022 at 08:52 PM

The history of slavery is long ang ugly. Form Mesopotamia , the vikings, Greeks, Portugal, Egypt, China, England, of course our USA. How do we move forward? And acknowledge the wrongs of the past??

RFClark - 7-1-2022 at 09:36 PM

I think you would find it’s as old as Walking upright if it were possible to check.!

JDCanuck - 7-2-2022 at 10:14 AM

On the issue of slavery.. Can anyone tell me which major colonial country or group outlawed the slave trade first? Would be interesting to know who began that initiative, and why.
According to this, Mexico and Britain both predated the US.
https://www.reuters.com/article/uk-factcheck-us-first-abolis...
Here in Canada:
Legal challenges to slavery in British North America

British abolitionists had actively opposed the transatlantic trade in African people since the 1770s. (Several abolitionist petitions organized in 1833 alone collectively garnered the support of 1.3 million signatories.) Such antislavery views spread to Upper Canada (later Canada West), influencing the passage there of the 1793 Act to Limit Slavery, the first such legislation in the British colonies.

In the eastern colonies of Lower Canada (what is now Québec), Nova Scotia, and New Brunswick, however, abolitionist attempts had been unsuccessful. In 1793, for instance, Pierre-Louis Panet introduced a bill to the National Assembly to abolish enslavement in Lower Canada, but the bill languished over several sessions and never came to a vote.

BUT NOT EVERYONE AGREED:
According to Wikipedia:
Under indigenous rule

Slave-owning people of what became Canada were, for example, the fishing societies, such as the Yurok, that lived along the Pacific coast from Alaska to California,[7] on what is sometimes described as the Pacific or Northern Northwest Coast. Some of the indigenous peoples of the Pacific Northwest Coast, such as the Haida and Tlingit, were traditionally known as fierce warriors and slave-traders, raiding as far as California. Slavery was hereditary, the slaves being prisoners of war and their descendants were slaves.[8] Some nations in British Columbia continued to segregate and ostracize the descendants of slaves as late as the 1970s.[9][page needed]

Among a few Pacific Northwest nations about a quarter of the population were slaves.[10][11] One slave narrative was composed by an Englishman, John R. Jewitt, who had been taken alive when his ship was captured in 1802; his memoir provides a detailed look at life as a slave, and asserts that a large number were held.

[Edited on 7-2-2022 by JDCanuck]

[Edited on 7-2-2022 by JDCanuck]

JDCanuck - 7-2-2022 at 03:52 PM

Just came across this one...sorry unable to post the pic.
https://www.1stdibs.com/furniture/dining-entertaining/sterli...

mtgoat666 - 7-2-2022 at 04:09 PM

Quote: Originally posted by JDCanuck

Just came across this one...sorry unable to post the pic.
https://www.1stdibs.com/furniture/dining-entertaining/sterli...

For every real antiquity there is a forgery!

More from academia on the cup...

David K - 7-4-2022 at 04:38 PM

Today, another person (Professor of Anthropology) responded to the photos I sent:

>>> The way the handle is attached, and the general form does make it look right for @ 1800 or so. I will need to check a few references. The mark on the bottom “”G.W.?” and the tarnish does suggest silver.

More soon. <<<

I am still awaiting to hear back from one more archeology/ anthropology expert.