BajaNomad

A new de-salination process from M.I.T.

AKgringo - 8-1-2022 at 10:14 AM

This could be a great device for parts of Baja that lack fresh water, or for boats. There is no mention of what the power requirements are, or at what rate it can produce clean water, but it looks promising.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/technology/briefcase-sized-ga...

TMW - 8-1-2022 at 10:35 AM

Interesting for sure. It could be a big help.

Don Pisto - 8-1-2022 at 10:44 AM

want to make your head spin google CICP......waaay above my pay grade :o

SFandH - 8-1-2022 at 11:05 AM

It's a small prototype to demonstrate feasibility:

"a fully integrated prototype (controller, pumps, and battery) packaged into a portable unit (42 × 33.5 × 19 cm3, 9.25 kg, and 0.33 L/h production rate) controlled by a smartphone, tested for battery-powered field operation."

"The portable system desalinates brackish water and seawater (2.5–45 g/L) into drinkable water (defined by WHO guideline), with the energy consumptions of 0.4–4 (brackish water) and 15.6–26.6 W h/L (seawater), respectively."

https://pubs.acs.org/doi/full/10.1021/acs.est.1c08466

I have no idea how these specs compare to other small desalination systems.




TMW - 8-1-2022 at 04:47 PM

I did a Google search for CICP and got this.

Did you mean: CIPC


Countermeasures Injury Compensation Program (CICP) - HRSAhttps://www.hrsa.gov › cicp
Nov 20, 2020 — The Countermeasures Injury Compensation Program (CICP) was created so that in the unlikely event you experience a serious injury from a ...
‎About CICP · ‎Filing For Benefits · ‎CICP Data · ‎Frequently Asked Questions

The Central Indiana Corporate Partnership: Homehttps://www.cicpindiana.com
Bringing together the leaders of industry, higher education and philanthropy to advance our region CENTRAL INDIANA CORPORATE PARTNERSHIP. 53. CORPORATIONS.
‎Team · ‎Board of Directors · ‎About · ‎CICP

Colorado Indigent Care Program (CICP) - HCPFhttps://hcpf.colorado.gov › colorado-indigent-care-pro...
We administer the Colorado Indigent Care Program (CICP), which provides discounted health care services to low-income people and families.

Colorado Indigent Care Program (CICP) Information For ...https://hcpf.colorado.gov › cicp
Colorado Indigent Care Program (CICP) Information For Providers · Important Information Links · Client Applications · 2022-23 Annual Provider Application.

cicp.pdf - CDChttps://www.cdc.gov › downloads › appendicesPDF
The Countermeasures Injury Compensation Program (CICP) is a Federal program that provides benefits for serious injuries that occur as a result of the ...
1 page

Compensation Programs for Potential COVID-19 Vaccine ...https://crsreports.congress.gov › LSB › LSB10584PDF
Oct 20, 2021 — During certain public health emergencies, the Countermeasures Injury Compensation Program (CICP) may provide compensation for injuries and ...

Countermeasures Injury Compensation Program (CICP)https://www.federalregister.gov › 2011/10/07 › counter...
Oct 7, 2011 — The Public Readiness and Emergency Preparedness Act (PREP Act) authorizes the Secretary of Health and Human Services (the Secretary) to ...

TMW - 8-1-2022 at 04:53 PM

I Googled CIPC and got this.


CIPC | Your business, our focushttps://www.cipc.co.za
Companies and Intellectual Property Commission – Copyright 2022 | Terms and Conditions | Disclaimer | Privacy Policy.
Login to CIPC eServices
Before you login make sure you have a valid email address, you ...
eServices
Welcome to the CIPC eServices system. To transact on this ...
CIPC Online Query Management
CIPC Online Query Management. the faster way to be heard ...
CIPC.Customer.Form ...
CIPC requires new or existing customers to have access to a ...
More results from cipc.co.za »

California Immigrant Policy Center: Homehttps://caimmigrant.org
The California Immigrant Policy Center (CIPC) is a constituent-based statewide immigrant rights organization with offices in Los Angeles, Sacramento and ...
‎Our Staff · ‎Join Our Team · ‎About Us · ‎Contact Us
People also ask

What does CIPC stand for?

Companies and Intellectual Property Commission
Companies and Intellectual Property Commission.

SFandH - 8-1-2022 at 04:58 PM

Quote: Originally posted by TMW  
I did a Google search for CICP and got this........



try: icp desalination

Don Pisto - 8-1-2022 at 05:35 PM

https://www.nature.com/articles/ncomms11223#:~:text=Although...


fascinating chit really....


you guys must have a different google than I have!:lol:


[Edited on 8-2-2022 by Don Pisto]

TMW - 8-1-2022 at 09:07 PM

icp desalination did it


COST EFFECTIVE SEAWATER DESALINATION WITH ICP ...https://cfpub.epa.gov › si_public_record_Report
ICP can separate water from solutes and contaminants far more efficiently than reverse osmosis (RO) or electrodialysis (ED) because no extreme hydraulic ...

ion concentration polarization (ICP) hybrid - Lab on a Chip ...https://pubs.rsc.org › content › articlelanding
by S Choi · 2017 · Cited by 11 — Our system combines electrocoagulation (EC), a versatile contaminant removal process, and ion concentration polarization (ICP) desalination, ...

From seawater to drinking water, with the push of a buttonhttps://news.mit.edu › portable-desalination-drinking-w...
icp desalination from news.mit.edu
Apr 28, 2022 — Instead, their unit relies on a technique called ion concentration polarization (ICP), which was pioneered by Han's group more than 10 years ago ...
‎Batch desalination... · ‎Solar-powered system offers a...

willardguy - 8-1-2022 at 09:47 PM

Quote: Originally posted by Don Pisto  
https://www.nature.com/articles/ncomms11223#:~:text=Although...


fascinating chit really....


you guys must have a different google than I have!:lol:


[Edited on 8-2-2022 by Don Pisto]


emerging de-sal technology that doesn't cost 20watts a litre! nice!:yes:

RFClark - 8-1-2022 at 10:07 PM

People have been working on this for 12-14 years. So far no product. The energy requirements are less of a problem with the price of solar coming down so much. Actually the disposal requirements for the concentrated salt solution put forth by the Mexican Government (CONAGUA) are a bigger problem for sea water to fresh water conversion than the technology to do it.

willardguy - 8-1-2022 at 10:13 PM

Quote: Originally posted by RFClark  
People have been working on this for 12-14 years. So far no product. The energy requirements are less of a problem with the price of solar coming down so much. Actually the disposal requirements for the concentrated salt solution put forth by the Mexican Government (CONAGUA) are a bigger problem for sea water to fresh water conversion than the technology to do it.


yeah as in EMERGING technology.....don't know where you are but where im at we're OUT of water. you have a plan?

RFClark - 8-1-2022 at 10:38 PM

WG,

If you’re in California bad governance, the Costal Commission and NIMBYs are the reason you don’t have sea water conversion now not technology.

As for a plan, yes I do have one. Move to BCS north of Cabo where we have a great solar powered well.

willardguy - 8-1-2022 at 11:51 PM

Quote: Originally posted by RFClark  
WG,

If you’re in California bad governance, the Costal Commission and NIMBYs are the reason you don’t have sea water conversion now not technology.

As for a plan, yes I do have one. Move to BCS north of Cabo where we have a great solar powered well.
oh yes our “bon apatite” friend, finish your beer and go to bed !

I don’t drink, but here’s a read for you!

RFClark - 8-2-2022 at 08:15 AM

Los Angeles (CNN)As California battles a historic drought and a water crisis looms, the state's coastline protection agency on Thursday unanimously rejected the development of a $1.4 billion desalination plant in Huntington Beach that would have converted ocean water into municipal water for Orange County residents.

Eleven members of the California Coastal Commission voted against the facility, which water treatment developer Poseidon Water has been trying to build for decades.
Poseidon said the plant would be capable of producing up to 50 million gallons of drinking water a day, helping to make the region more drought resilient.

[Edited on 8-2-2022 by RFClark]

SFandH - 8-2-2022 at 09:16 AM

Did you bother to find out why the idea was rejected?

It may be a better idea to stop watering golf courses.

[Edited on 8-2-2022 by SFandH]

John Harper - 8-2-2022 at 09:30 AM

Quote: Originally posted by SFandH  
Did you bother to find out why the idea was rejected?

It may be a better idea to stop watering golf courses.


The majority of water in California is still heavily subsidized and virtually given to agricultural interests.

John

TMW - 8-2-2022 at 09:47 AM

Food grows where water flows

RFClark - 8-2-2022 at 09:48 AM

Yes, as would anyone who has lived in California post AQMD and Costal Commission. The CNN article is for a Left leaning news outlet generally surprised at the rejection!

The reasons given in the article ran from it would exacerbate sea level rise and might harm the marine life to the cost of the water wold be passed along to the users. The following quote is typical.

“On its website dedicated to fighting the Huntington Beach plant, the non-profit Surfrider Foundation indicates the water the project would provide is not needed, calling the potential plant "a waste of money."

NIMBYs!

Stopping golf courses from watering sounds like a plan until you discover many of the golf courses are watered with water from sewage plants that would otherwise be released back into the ocean. Those purple hydrants that you see are part of the recycled water system!

The water that flows down the LA river into the ocean is good recycled water waisted to satisfy “green” yuppies! When I was a child the LA “river” was a flood control system to channel excessive rain into the ocean.

John Harper - 8-2-2022 at 10:14 AM

Quote: Originally posted by TMW  
Food grows where water flows


No problem with that as long as it's priced fairly, not given away to corporate farms.

John

Tioloco - 8-2-2022 at 10:20 AM



[Edited on 8-2-2022 by Tioloco]

SFandH - 8-2-2022 at 11:09 AM

Quote: Originally posted by RFClark  

Stopping golf courses from watering sounds like a plan until you discover many of the golf courses are watered with water from sewage plants that would otherwise be released back into the ocean. Those purple hydrants that you see are part of the recycled water system!


I was just using that as an example. My point is conservation and wiser use and pricing of the water available is the best way to go before building power hungry and possibly polluting mega-desal factories.

I'm glad the desal facility was nixxed. IMO it should be last resort solution.

TMW - 8-2-2022 at 12:10 PM

Quote: Originally posted by John Harper  
Quote: Originally posted by TMW  
Food grows where water flows


No problem with that as long as it's priced fairly, not given away to corporate farms.

John


The farmers pay for the water and to maintain the canals. It is not free water. to anyone.

John Harper - 8-2-2022 at 01:24 PM

Quote: Originally posted by TMW  
Quote: Originally posted by John Harper  
Quote: Originally posted by TMW  
Food grows where water flows


No problem with that as long as it's priced fairly, not given away to corporate farms.

John


The farmers pay for the water and to maintain the canals. It is not free water. to anyone.


Sure they do. Here's a couple books on the subject of how water got to the "farmers."

Cadillac Desert (water development in the West)
The King of California (about your neck of the woods, Bako and cotton!)

John

[Edited on 8-2-2022 by John Harper]

RFClark - 8-2-2022 at 08:13 PM

SFandH,

My point as an Engineer is that the water shortages are not primarily an engineering problem. They are political and cultural problems which can only be solved by political and cultural means. New technology is useless if government won’t let you apply it!

This is the reason behind the sudden interest in water mining the air. It’s not currently within the purview of government and very low profile.

SFandH - 8-3-2022 at 08:22 AM

Quote: Originally posted by RFClark  
New technology is useless if government won’t let you apply it!



The California Coastal Commission did allow the same company to build the Carlsbad desal plant. I don't know the issues with the proposed Huntington Beach plant.

The Carlsbad facility is the area's most expensive water supply and is in need of a 160 million dollar upgrade, which the ratepayers will pay for. The plant is 7 years old.

https://www.sandiegouniontribune.com/news/environment/story/...



[Edited on 8-3-2022 by SFandH]

Don Pisto - 8-3-2022 at 08:49 AM

we're not talking about watering golf courses here....:(
https://popculturely.com/news/mexicos-drought-country-faces-...

willardguy - 8-3-2022 at 09:24 AM

think maybe the MIT guys struggling to develop a more efficient de-sal aren't thinking Carlsbad??

SFandH - 8-3-2022 at 12:16 PM

Quote: Originally posted by Don Pisto  
we're not talking about watering golf courses here....:(
https://popculturely.com/news/mexicos-drought-country-faces-...


Sounds like there are serious water shortage problems in Nuevo Leon. I just checked and August, September, and October are Monterrey's rainiest months. Stay tuned......

Santiago - 8-4-2022 at 05:22 AM

Quote: Originally posted by John Harper  


Sure they do. Here's a couple books on the subject of how water got to the "farmers."

Cadillac Desert (water development in the West)
The King of California (about your neck of the woods, Bako and cotton!)

John

[Edited on 8-2-2022 by John Harper]


I 2nd the recommendation of "The King of California". The old phrase, "Whisky is for drinking, Water is for fighting" is well documented in this book. My brother-in-law worked for the Boswell Corp for many years and says the book is accurate from what he knew.

John Harper - 8-4-2022 at 05:46 AM

Quote: Originally posted by SFandH  

The Carlsbad facility is the area's most expensive water supply and is in need of a 160 million dollar upgrade, which the ratepayers will pay for. The plant is 7 years old.


Lucky me, I live in Carlsbad. I wondered why the city dropped trash services from our bill (was water, trash, sewer) but the bill was the same. Now we get a separate bill for trash from Republic Services.

Like the famous "trash recycling" plant they built east of me, which cost tens of millions and was never put into operation.

John

JDCanuck - 8-4-2022 at 06:17 AM

Seems to me the answer lays with the Politicians being committed as much as the Engineers are. More people, more water demand per person and also more agriculture to support them. Arguing about who wastes or needs it the most doesn't seem to be providing any positive solutions.
Great to see the Engineers moving in the right direction at least, and I remain hopeful there will soon be a readily available solution to meet our needs.

JDCanuck - 8-4-2022 at 06:25 AM

John: We had a huge public effort to separate and recycle trash as well that began decades ago. The government shut down the glass recycling plant (too expensive they say) to save money, raised our garbage taxes and in general remix our separated recycling waste and dump it back into the land dumps. Very discouraging to say the least.

JDCanuck - 8-5-2022 at 05:58 AM

Here is an air sourced water distillation process that may work well in off-grid high humidity areas. A bit pricey perhaps yet. Anyone have experiences with it to share?:

https://www.forbes.com/sites/jeffkart/2022/01/13/solar-power...

RFClark - 8-5-2022 at 09:14 AM

JD,

The Pols are committed to power and reelection generally!

We have an 800W dehumidifier that produces 3+ gallons in about 10hrs, more if the humidity is high. It cost around $200 US.

Our AC units (18K BTU) produce more than 5 Gal in the same time period.

In general the humidity needs to be above 40% to work. Next to the beach that’s usually not a problem. As batteries become less expensive it will be possible to run more hours a day. Currently we use the water for plants. The electricity is basically free during the day. Since the dehumidifier puts out warm dry air it heats the house too.

[Edited on 8-5-2022 by RFClark]

JDCanuck - 8-5-2022 at 05:44 PM

Quote: Originally posted by RFClark  
JD,

The Pols are committed to power and reelection generally!

We have an 800W dehumidifier that produces 3+ gallons in about 10hrs, more if the humidity is high. It cost around $200 US.

Our AC units (18K BTU) produce more than 5 Gal in the same time period.

In general the humidity needs to be above 40% to work. Next to the beach that’s usually not a problem. As batteries become less expensive it will be possible to run more hours a day. Currently we use the water for plants. The electricity is basically free during the day. Since the dehumidifier puts out warm dry air it heats the house too.

[Edited on 8-5-2022 by RFClark]


Our humidity runs pretty steady at around 60-65% this time of year(optimal burn and surgery recovery humidity, by the way), and our AC units do drop a lot of condensate out which presently just drains to ground. So yes, this should be a very easy way to get distilled water very cheaply with the right equipment. Surprised at the cost of these units.

Glidergeek - 8-7-2022 at 09:39 AM

Interesting and a positive process for our future. The cities and people along the west coast might just benefit from this more so than a
$100 billion bullet train blunder.

RFClark - 8-7-2022 at 01:35 PM

JD,

We don't need to haul in water at our new place so we’re going to add the AC output to the gray water tank. I found a small pump/strainer/sand filter combo on Amazon for under $200 we’ll use a 2000L UG plastic tank.

RFClark - 8-8-2022 at 08:06 PM

Here’s a link to a water from air recovery sysem

https://akvosphere.com/akvo-water-block/?utm_term=&utm_c...

JDCanuck - 8-8-2022 at 09:10 PM

Quote: Originally posted by RFClark  
JD,

We don't need to haul in water at our new place so we’re going to add the AC output to the gray water tank. I found a small pump/strainer/sand filter combo on Amazon for under $200 we’ll use a 2000L UG plastic tank.


RFClark: Thanks to this thread I am digging up my AC discharges (never thought of this very ready source of distilled water) and going to attempt something similar, but planning on directing it into the water supply cistern to drop our hardness to a bit more reasonable levels. Any reason you can think of that this would be a bad idea? Thats a lot of very demineralized water we were throwing away.

RFClark - 8-8-2022 at 09:19 PM

No reason at all as long as you chlorinate the water. We run our’s into the household water supply. I bubble Ozone through that water plus add Chlorine from time to time.

Whiskey Witch - 8-10-2022 at 07:38 AM

Here is one product that exists today.

https://www.rainmandesal.com/?gclid=Cj0KCQjwrs2XBhDjARIsAHVy...

RFClark - 8-10-2022 at 07:58 AM

WW,

There are several other portable RO systems. That said this one is new to me so thanks for the post. The problems with RO systems are membrane storage between uses and in Mexico, government rules (CONAGUA) about disposing of the high salt wastewater. We were discussing ways of getting water from humid air because currently the government doesn’t regulate it. The from the air method equipment also stores better between uses but is not as portable and requires solar electricity. If you have AC you can collect water from that at almost no additional cost.

Don Pisto - 8-10-2022 at 12:14 PM

https://voiceofsandiego.org/2022/08/09/ensenada-last-in-line...

RFClark - 8-10-2022 at 01:04 PM

DP,

The climate in Ensenada is damp and foggy enough that they could probably use passive fog traps to collect large amounts of water.

RFClark - 8-11-2022 at 07:27 PM

This looks interesting!

A solar powered water from air system 6’X10’ 350lbs.

I’m going to reply to them and see what I can find out.

https://www.source.co/residential/

JDCanuck - 8-11-2022 at 09:21 PM

Quote: Originally posted by RFClark  
This looks interesting!

A solar powered water from air system 6’X10’ 350lbs.

I’m going to reply to them and see what I can find out.

https://www.source.co/residential/


I looked at that earlier. Excellent energy efficient way to obtain distilled water in high humidity areas, but pretty expensive. Yield not all that great.

RFClark - 8-11-2022 at 09:31 PM

JD,

It was interesting! That said 6L per unit per day. With just solar panels and a dehumidifier I can produce 2-3 times as much water.

Don Pisto - 8-11-2022 at 10:48 PM

Quote: Originally posted by RFClark  
DP,

The climate in Ensenada is damp and foggy enough that they could probably use passive fog traps to collect large amounts of water.


:lol:I think you should give em a call!

Fog Traps collect up to 36K L of water per day

RFClark - 8-12-2022 at 09:07 AM

https://www.fastcompany.com/3068531/these-massive-floating-n...

https://www.harvestingrainwater.com/water-harvesting/harvest...


2137456F-B2D9-4F32-BAA5-05C421A68A91.jpeg - 275kB

[Edited on 8-12-2022 by RFClark]

Don Pisto - 8-12-2022 at 12:46 PM

Quote: Originally posted by AKgringo  
This could be a great device for parts of Baja that lack fresh water, or for boats. There is no mention of what the power requirements are, or at what rate it can produce clean water, but it looks promising.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/technology/briefcase-sized-ga...


the MIT boys keep working toward new solutions:D
https://news.mit.edu/2019/brine-desalianation-waste-sodium-h...

mtgoat666 - 8-12-2022 at 08:22 PM

Ponder this about the CA Central Valley:

Approximately 75% of the irrigated land in California and 17% of the Nation's irrigated land is in the Central Valley

About 20% of the Nation's groundwater demand is supplied from pumping Central Valley aquifers, making it the second-most-pumped aquifer system in the U.S.

Using fewer than 1% of U.S. farmland, the Central Valley supplies 8% of U.S. agricultural output (by value) and produces 1/4 of the Nation's food, including 40% of the Nation's fruits, nuts, and other table foods.

The USA depends on California for its very survival. CA water needs are of primary importance to the entire usa economy and food supply.

Maintaining Californias water supply is more important than most other national issues.

California Uber alles!



[Edited on 8-13-2022 by mtgoat666]

RFClark - 8-12-2022 at 08:35 PM

Goat,

Those in charge in California have repeatedly demonstrated that they couldn’t manage a 6 year old’s birthday party and can screw up a wet dream! What could possibly go wrong? Pleasant dreams!

willardguy - 8-12-2022 at 11:00 PM

maybe engineer bill (or our own pudgy chivo) can tie this argument about california politics to fit this forum? yes/no?



[Edited on 8-13-2022 by willardguy]

RFClark - 8-13-2022 at 02:45 AM

WG,

The solutions to California’s water problems lies not just in better engineering. They lie in better planning and leadership as well. That is of course a “political” discussion. If that was not true so-many people would not be moving to Mexico and other places from there.

That said the mega-drought seems to have been temporarily upstaged by a series of mega-floods from a better than average annual monsoon.

mtgoat666 - 8-13-2022 at 03:19 AM

Quote: Originally posted by RFClark  
Goat,

Those in charge in California have repeatedly demonstrated that they couldn’t manage a 6 year old’s birthday party and can screw up a wet dream! What could possibly go wrong? Pleasant dreams!


You right wing nuts like to complain about California… got an example of California being mismanaged more than another similar state?
California is doing well.

RFClark - 8-13-2022 at 03:28 AM

OK Goat,

Here’s a big one! 2 words politicians don’t understand: “Base Load”.

https://www.latimes.com/business/story/2022-08-12/california...

“Diablo Canyon is California’s single largest power source. Officials are worried that without it, the state could have trouble keeping the lights on — and air conditioners running — during intense summer heat waves. Newsom has also suggested that keeping the plant open would help fight climate change because Diablo doesn’t produce planet-warming pollution.

“Some would say it’s the righteous and right climate decision,” Newsom told The Times earlier this year.

The 2,250-megawatt power plant — which generated 6% of the state’s electricity in 2021 — is nestled along the Central Coast south of Morro Bay. Its fate has been a subject of controversy for decades, with then-Gov. Jerry Brown railing against the facility’s construction”

[Edited on 8-13-2022 by RFClark]

JDCanuck - 8-13-2022 at 06:05 PM

2 and a quarter gigawatt is indeed a big plant. What is the source if not thermal power? Hydro or?

RFClark - 8-13-2022 at 06:09 PM

It’s a nuke plant that’s why the NIMBY’s wanted to close it down. Nuke is fine but in someone else's state or country please!

SFandH - 8-14-2022 at 06:30 AM

Quote: Originally posted by lencho  

Huh? Doesn't a two gigawatt power plant pump two additional gigawatts of thermal energy into the biosphere no matter WHAT the fuel source?



Interesting question.

30 percent or so is converted to electrical energy. Much of that is converted to light and kinetic energy. etc. How much eventually returns to heat, I don't know. Energy is neither created nor destroyed, a basic rule of Mother Nature.

But, of course, nukes aren't releasing greenhouse gases like a fossil fuel plant.

The operating licenses of the 2 Diablo Canyon reactors are due to expire in 2025, after 40 years of operation. I bet the NRC extends them after a certification process. But they are getting old and creaky. High maintenance costs I imagine. Maintenance cost is what eventually shut down the San Onofre reactors.

Conserve and increase efficiency - everything, everywhere.


[Edited on 8-14-2022 by SFandH]

mtgoat666 - 8-14-2022 at 06:42 AM

Quote: Originally posted by RFClark  
It’s a nuke plant that’s why the NIMBY’s wanted to close it down. Nuke is fine but in someone else's state or country please!


I would not want it in my back yard. Especially now, when it looks like we are on verge of civil war. Nuke staff will likely abandon their posts when war starts! Then meltdown!

Other potential melt down causes: mega earthquake, tsunami, mega flood, sabotage, meteor strike, mismanagement by PG&E, trump regaining control of NRC,… the list of potential meltdown causes is long!



[Edited on 8-14-2022 by mtgoat666]

SFandH - 8-14-2022 at 07:43 AM

Quote: Originally posted by mtgoat666  
Quote: Originally posted by RFClark  
It’s a nuke plant that’s why the NIMBY’s wanted to close it down. Nuke is fine but in someone else's state or country please!


I would not want it in my back yard. Especially now, when it looks like we are on verge of civil war. Nuke staff will likely abandon their posts when war starts! Then meltdown!

Other potential melt down causes: mega earthquake, tsunami, mega flood, sabotage, meteor strike, mismanagement by PG&E, trump regaining control of NRC,… the list of potential meltdown causes is long!



[Edited on 8-14-2022 by mtgoat666]


Let's hope they have the emergency diesel generators up the hill and not beneath ground level, susceptible to flooding, like at ***ushima. THE cause of the meltdowns. Pure stupidity.

Tidal Waves are probably not a problem

RFClark - 8-14-2022 at 11:53 AM

Tidal waves are probably way down the list of dangers.

BTW, the excess heat could be used to generate a lot of fresh water as it does run on steam and uses water to cool it.

Someone asked about total thermal output vs electrical output. The electrical output for thermal steam plants is around 40% of the total output if I remember correctly. The best solar panels run 30% or less.

AAF39B20-6177-40C5-98AF-EAD6B0D3C097.jpeg - 337kB

[Edited on 8-14-2022 by RFClark]

[Edited on 8-14-2022 by RFClark]

RFClark - 8-14-2022 at 12:11 PM

Goat,

11,000 Ukrainians work at the largest Nuclear Power complex in Europe it’s occupied by Russian troops and in the middle of a real shooting war zone. Few of them have abandoned their responsibilities.

mtgoat666 - 8-14-2022 at 12:52 PM

Quote: Originally posted by RFClark  
Tidal waves are probably way down the list of dangers.


Yep, tidal waves are probably not a threat.
But tsunamis are.



JDCanuck - 8-14-2022 at 01:21 PM

Quote: Originally posted by RFClark  
Tidal waves are probably way down the list of dangers.

BTW, the excess heat could be used to generate a lot of fresh water as it does run on steam and uses water to cool it.

Someone asked about total thermal output vs electrical output. The electrical output for thermal steam plants is around 40% of the total output if I remember correctly. The best solar panels run 30% or less.



[Edited on 8-14-2022 by RFClark]

[Edited on 8-14-2022 by RFClark]


Thermal generating plants ran at about 45% in 1981, but the newer combined cycle natural gas turbine plants have exceeded 65%. Cars run at somewhere around 20% on gasoline. Grid transmission losses have to be factored in, but natural gas is far lower pollution than gasoline, so combined cycle gas plants powering autos would cut pollution and CO2 significantly when used to power electric vehicles...somewhere around 65-75%. Converting an IC to natural gas alone saves 35%. The engineering and cradle to grave studies are decades old, but progress is frustratingly slow.

[Edited on 8-14-2022 by JDCanuck]

JDCanuck - 8-14-2022 at 01:40 PM

Lencho: I began my career as a power engineer at a coal fired thermal plant producing over 2 gw of power in the early 1970's. At that time, 55% of the energy went to atmosphere(mainly to the cooling water in a cooling pond) the rest went to steam and heat in the exhaust gas and some small amount was lost in mechanical losses in the turbines. I can't comment on the variable grid losses, as we exported all the way to 4 Corners New Mexico and were tied into a grid that pushed demand to us whenever California demanded excess power.
Note: That coal fired plant is converted to cleaner nat gas now, and the smaller surrounding ones were shut down and replaced by wind power by the same utility in the 1990's.

RFClark - 8-14-2022 at 07:51 PM

SF&H,


Electric and Hybrid cars use regenerative braking which is about 50% efficient as a system. Conventional cars use friction braking which outputs heat.

Thermal solar energy systems like the solar mirror steam plants on the way to Vegas release more heat into the atmosphere than the desert underneath them did but far less thermal energy than a conventional thermal power plant of the same size.

PV systems are more complicated especially if they store energy that is used after dark. Bare ground radiates heat into space at night as do trees and structures. So there are a lot of variables for pv systems including their manufacturing carbon footprint.

[Edited on 8-15-2022 by RFClark]

Back to de-salination...

AKgringo - 8-14-2022 at 09:06 PM

The neighbor across the street from me here in Nevada County has a long history of being the superintendent on major construction projects. He just wrapped up the one he has been running for the last year and a half, and now they want to send him to a new de-sal plan near Antioch.

Reduced flows from the San Joaquin River drainage, and increased draws from the river have resulted in salt water incursion to the existing water treatment plant.

RFClark - 8-14-2022 at 09:11 PM

Yes, a common problem. Ask him how many miles of pipe he needs to get rid of the brine generated! It could be a few. Beaumont has a brine discharge line that runs down to Redlands!

AKgringo - 8-14-2022 at 09:24 PM

I will be surprised if he takes the job. It is about a 2 1/2 hour drive (one way) and I get the impression that he is past the point in his career that he needs to commute that far.

JDCanuck - 8-16-2022 at 07:13 AM

RFClark: I did an informal survey of neighbours and they get an average of 3 1/2 gal per day per 1 ton AC unit of collected distilled water. Thats a lot of water to be discarding when it's essentially a free byproduct. If you have not gone past the point of running discharges already, you might want to collect it to a common point for recovery. We are too far gone to do that easily, but can get about 2/3 of present discharges recovered. Collection tank about 20-30 gal buried and used as RO source with excess levels pumped to Cisterna would be ideal I think. Comments?

[Edited on 8-16-2022 by JDCanuck]

Cliffy - 8-22-2022 at 07:57 AM

What ever happened to the nice new desal plant they built in BOLA 40 years ago. It worked wonderful
What about small nuc plants instead of monstrous eyesores? Less direct foot print, less danger. easy to place where needed
Think of all the nuc Navy boats and what powers all those shiny objects going overhead all night long!

Hate to say it but Texas proved what I've said for years-
Sometimes the wind don't blow at night!
The grid doesn't store electricity
without dino juice or nuc we go dark

There is no shortage of fresh water on earth there is only a distribution system problem

JDCanuck - 8-22-2022 at 08:13 PM

Quote: Originally posted by lencho  
Quote: Originally posted by RFClark  
...keeping the plant open would help fight climate change because Diablo doesn’t produce planet-warming pollution.

Huh? Doesn't a two gigawatt power plant pump two additional gigawatts of thermal energy into the biosphere no matter WHAT the fuel source?

When discussing global warming, I can't figure why that point is not included as part of the conversation; photovoltaic, wind, or hydro power are simply moving incoming solar energy around, while combustion and nuke plants actually pump additional heat into the system.


2GW at 65% efficiency will release mainly heat of 0.7 GW at source, useful work at the delivery end of something under 1.3 GW, the rest will be in transmission losses. Or, you can ignore the available stored energy and let it release it over a far longer period naturally. Fuels left to decay naturally will eventually release that energy, why not use it practically?

Best example is a decaying tree. It will release Methane, CO2 and other gasses along with heat over it's decay period, eventually becoming ash in a natural cycle. People forget fuels will not remain stable but are in constant decay, using them instead just speeds up the process.

Or, you can cut down that tree while the energy required to produce it is stored, encase it in a building and stop the energy release cycle altogether.



[Edited on 8-23-2022 by JDCanuck]

JDCanuck - 8-22-2022 at 08:44 PM

The problem with Nuclear is what to do with all that enriched plutonium that isn't used up to generate electricity. Over 20,000 years later U239 will be 1/2 as radioactive as when it's stored. We have yet to come up with a reliable storage method that will contain it until it has lost it's radioactivity. Best solution yet is to launch it into the sun in space ships.
Then there's the risk of meltdowns', and we have come very close on several occasions, not to mention the accidental releases like Chernobyl and a multitude of smaller ones we were never told of.
I think there will be a far better solution in the future.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plutonium

[Edited on 8-23-2022 by JDCanuck]

RFClark - 8-22-2022 at 08:53 PM

JD,

The overall thermal efficiency of the best hydrocarbon fueled generating plants in the real world is 40%. Nuke plants run around 33% but they don’t emit CO2! Were either type of plant to use the waste heat to distill water the efficiency would be higher!

JDCanuck - 8-22-2022 at 09:01 PM

Quote: Originally posted by RFClark  
JD,

The overall thermal efficiency of the best hydrocarbon fueled generating plants in the real world is 40%. Nuke plants run around 33% but they don’t emit CO2! Were either type of plant to use the waste heat to distill water the efficiency would be higher!



RFClark: You haven't looked into the Natural gas combined cycle plants presently being pushed out at 65% efficiency, with carbon capture and storage being put in place at present using abandoned natural gas pipelines to route the CO2 to depleted natural gas caverns and capping them.
Here is one of the older ones, but the newer ones are breaking 65%

https://www.araner.com/blog/combined-cycle-power-plants
And here is an article of existing carbon capture on a commercial scale:
https://energyrates.ca/carbon-capture-storage/

Another big advantage of combined cycle is the very rapid startup cycle to fill in when other sources fail. Older thermal plants took hours to come online, while these can be online in less than 1/2 hour as the gas turbine section can be started and producing within minutes.

Using additional waste heat downstream of the exhaust steam generator to distill water is an interesting concept, that could push the advantages even higher.





[Edited on 8-23-2022 by JDCanuck]

RFClark - 8-22-2022 at 09:23 PM

JD,

You’re talking about gas turbine peaker plants. I’m talking base load conventional plants which represent the majority of US plants. Cabo has a bunch of gas tribunes on the way into town. They can be very efficient especially in the cogeneration mode where they output AC and hot water too. Disney World has used them for a long time. They now make micro-turbine plants as small as 65KW.

JDCanuck - 8-22-2022 at 09:31 PM

RFClark: The article I posted has a very simple description of Combined Cycle plants. We used simple Gas Turbines of 66MW back in the late 70's to provide peaking or recovery on major trips, these are far more efficient as the waste heat is used to provide steam for a steam turbo generator and that's where the additional 25% efficiency comes from. The latest technology is stripping out the CO2 for storage in deep underground caverns, further reducing the environmental impact.

JDCanuck - 8-27-2022 at 06:48 AM

RFClark and others: Thanks to your posts here, we have redirected the first of our A/C units (2 1/2 tons combined) condensate drains to our well supplied cistern. Initial results were very encouraging as the level in the cistern rose above the normal float supplied level, overcoming our total non -potable water use on the first 2 days. We will be tieing in another 3 units doubling the expected flow rates, and I expect our scale producing hard water issues will disappear altogether without the need for RO or other whole house treatments.
Secondary positive was the humidity in the house dropped from over 80% to 60% as we ran the A/C units longer than usual, so we also hope to see humidity related electrical issues decrease.
Thanks for all the info you provided.