BajaNomad

Is Baja Nomad Dying?

BajaBill74 - 11-3-2022 at 08:08 AM

The number of posts per day is going WAY down. Can we save it?

David K - 11-3-2022 at 08:53 AM

Perhaps, but if we all could keep posting Baja trip reports, Baja photos, Baja events, and stay away from politics... that may do it. We still have a few regular posters who have never posted a trip report or photos of their times in Baja.

The difficulty for some to post photos (or learn the easy steps needed, currently) could be an issue, too.

The huge deposit of content from the past 20 years since Nomad forums began (2002), is an incredibel resource. The search feature here is like a pot of gold, as well.

tomieharder - 11-3-2022 at 09:01 AM

Lot's of childish name calling on this site.

elgatoloco - 11-3-2022 at 09:12 AM

Quote: Originally posted by tomieharder  
Lot's of childish name calling on this site.


You do see a lot more of that all over the place. Up until a few years ago you would see it (childish names, mocking disabled, blatant lies) every day in the news cycle coming out of the mouth of the leader of the biggest democracy in the world. Once that started seemed every buttcrack (including the ones on this board) felt it was ok to come out from under their rock and say whatever the flock they wanted. Now of course that's just my opinion but since I have studied human behavior practically my whole life I am entitled to that opinion and no one can convince me otherwise.
Facts. Truth. lol :saint:;):cool::biggrin:

bajatrailrider - 11-3-2022 at 09:32 AM

The answer is no cant be saved. Before I joined was told by Ex nomads dont give your time here. So far every off road person and a few nomads . Good decent people the marooons and clueless out number the good. On all other web sites Im on these nut cases are quickly. Removed by all others on site what it is it is.

gnukid - 11-3-2022 at 09:41 AM

The site is helpful to screen who to avoid in Baja...

boe4fun - 11-3-2022 at 09:53 AM

The Vagabundos no longer have a link to forums. I wouldn’t like to see yet another source fall by the wayside.

BajaBlanca - 11-3-2022 at 09:59 AM

I think covid and not being able to travel so easily had a big impact here. This should slowly but surely change back, right?

This site has been a wealth of information on everythig Baja - hotels, restaurants, roads, all invaluable and wonderful in real time.

It would be terrible for this to end. I say this writibg from Turkiye!

Ateo - 11-3-2022 at 10:00 AM

Quote: Originally posted by gnukid  
The site is helpful to screen who to avoid in Baja...


That was hilarious and made me laugh out loud!!

MulegeAL - 11-3-2022 at 10:01 AM

"Can we save it?"

My opinion is no. Would require stronger moderation to remove counter pointers, name callers, etc and I don't think that change will happen.

Outta here.


JDCanuck - 11-3-2022 at 10:08 AM

It's a bit odd, but the same people who are most willing to provide helpful information when asked are also the ones that are most often attacked and abused personally. Why is that? And don't dare thank them for whatever helpful info they provided or defend them when they are attacked as that puts you on the attack list as well by simple association.
Well meaning people just stop asking or contributing and go elsewhere to share their info. I have to admire those that hang in there despite all these personal attacks, and thanks for your commitment.



[Edited on 11-3-2022 by JDCanuck]

KurtG - 11-3-2022 at 10:43 AM

Forums in general are in decline. In years past one could find a forum dedicated to almost any obscure subject, my experience with motorcycle forums is an example. 15 years ago there were forums filled with info for the motorcycles I owned. There were a couple for the KLR that helped me a lot over the years. Even a model like my 81 CB750 Custom had a forum dedicated just to that model. These forums still exist but share all the problems of this and other forums. The link below gives a good overview of this decline and reasons for it.

https://www.makeuseof.com/social-media-online-forums/

The political stuff from both camps drive people away. It really is that simple.

4x4abc - 11-3-2022 at 11:06 AM

Quote: Originally posted by BajaBill74  
The number of posts per day is going WAY down. Can we save it?


nope!

dead like facebook

Udo - 11-3-2022 at 11:46 AM

:bounce:
Quote: Originally posted by tomieharder  
Lot's of childish name calling on this site.

shari - 11-3-2022 at 11:47 AM

we are all dying...jus sayin...

I love this forum and have made so many lifelong amigos through it. I love that we can banter with the poster...not like facebook which I am not real fond of at all.

I do wish it was easier to post photos and of course that the personal attacks could be stopped.

I for one love the humour and classic posters who mansplain stuff..hahah...it is full of colourful characters.

Maybe if Facebook crashed we could revive Nomads.

Udo - 11-3-2022 at 11:49 AM

This is well-said, JD!
Quote: Originally posted by JDCanuck  
It's a bit odd, but the same people who are most willing to provide helpful information when asked are also the ones that are most often attacked and abused personally. Why is that? And don't dare thank them for whatever helpful info they provided or defend them when they are attacked as that puts you on the attack list as well by simple association.
Well meaning people just stop asking or contributing and go elsewhere to share their info. I have to admire those that hang in there despite all these personal attacks, and thanks for your commitment.



[Edited on 11-3-2022 by JDCanuck]

Udo - 11-3-2022 at 11:52 AM

Well said, Shari!:bounce:
Quote: Originally posted by shari  
we are all dying...jus sayin...

I do wish it was easier to post photos and of course that the personal attacks could be stopped.


Maybe if Facebook crashed we could revive Nomads.

4x4abc - 11-3-2022 at 12:26 PM

BajaNomad is the perfect forum for Baja

like in Baja there are rules - but nobody follows them
nobody enforces them
a "less government dream" come true

like in Baja, in the end - bullies set the tone
and poison everything quiet, kind and gentle

60 speed limit 800.jpg - 121kB

RFClark - 11-3-2022 at 01:19 PM

Harold,

I hope that you are feeling better. That sign is the problem with government in one picture.

The speed signs are probably placed by a guy in the D.F. who has never driven the road. Micro-regulation not only doesn’t work it generates an attitude that allows people to disregard rules that do matter.

I think that a lack of demanding personal responsibility and failure to teach critical thinking are to blame as well.

Bullies setting the tone! The DOJ using main battle tanks to settle a child custody case does come to mind here!

JDCanuck - 11-3-2022 at 01:28 PM

I have question for Harald or anyone else that drives into La Paz on Hwy 1 from the north. I have looked constantly for where the speed changes as you are driving into El Centenario from the gas station and have found no signage. What is the speed limit and where does it change? I have assumed 80kph and just after the restaurant and gas station. Am I right? No one seems to slow down until long after that.

Salsa - 11-3-2022 at 01:33 PM

Of course the Bandidos and Border Crashers have nothing to do with peoples faith in Baja :o

Don

TMW - 11-3-2022 at 02:16 PM

I don't think it's changed that much over the years. There may be fewer post now but it seems to be related to what is posted. I personally don't care if it stays or goes.

David K - 11-3-2022 at 02:52 PM

Most of us met each other thanks to forums such as Baja Nomad and Amigos de Baja, which preceded Nomad.

Thanks to Doug's work, ithis is still a valuable resource and a place for friendship making. Don't forget how we can also help each other in need. Either by seeking help directly, or from distress messages on Spot or inReach satellite devices. When I get a request for assistance from one of you off grid, at least by sharing it here, help is often soon on its way.

Udo - 11-3-2022 at 03:15 PM

You are sooo right, David! That is why you are the King on Nomads.

BTW, we have been in San Felipe for ten days now and will be here until June of next year. Shell beach is not that far away!
Quote: Originally posted by David K  
Most of us met each other thanks to forums such as Baja Nomad and Amigos de Baja, which preceded Nomad.

Thanks to Doug's work, ithis is still a valuable resource and a place for friendship making. Don't forget how we can also help each other in need. Either by seeking help directly, or from distress messages on Spot or inReach satellite devices. When I get a request for assistance from one of you off grid, at least by sharing it here, help is often soon on its way.

bajatrailrider - 11-3-2022 at 03:40 PM

That is all fine and good David the good with bad . You said the good but nobody can post . Without the nut cases write anything but that. Or the worthless no nothing remarks then the hassle to post pictures. As far as sites less traffic not hardly many have moved on from here.

David K - 11-3-2022 at 04:52 PM

I don't know what you are saying here, Larry. Sorry, some help please: "... but nobody can post" ?

Photo posting really isn't a hassle, otherwise I wouldn't hapily post photos for you here.
The main issue is getting the images from your camera (or phone) into your PC's pictures folder or on a photo hosting site. From there it is easy to load onto Postimages.org with the 800 pixel width modifyer.

surabi - 11-3-2022 at 05:01 PM

Quote: Originally posted by bajatrailrider  
That is all fine and good David the good with bad . You said the good but nobody can post . Without the nut cases write anything but that. Or the worthless no nothing remarks then the hassle to post pictures. As far as sites less traffic not hardly many have moved on from here.


And then there are the posts that are almost impossible to decipher because the poster writes in run-on sentences with randomly inserted punctuation. :lol:

[Edited on 11-4-2022 by surabi]

StuckSucks - 11-3-2022 at 05:58 PM

Absolutely.

My first piece of evidence is "Today's Posts" from 2008 when that list filled two pages.

When this thread eventually turns to politics accompanied with squabbling, that will be my second piece of evidence.






mtgoat666 - 11-3-2022 at 06:43 PM

Quote: Originally posted by StuckSucks  
Absolutely.

My first piece of evidence is "Today's Posts" from 2008 when that list filled two pages.

When this thread eventually turns to politics accompanied with squabbling, that will be my second piece of evidence.








Looks like the topics have not changed in 14 years. Perhaps the topicality has burnt out.
These days FB and IG are much better for seeing other peeps vacation pics…
And the web has evolved, so many other places to get travel info now a days…

surabi - 11-3-2022 at 07:55 PM

Quote: Originally posted by David K  


Photo posting really isn't a hassle, otherwise I wouldn't hapily post photos for you here.
The main issue is getting the images from your camera (or phone) into your PC's pictures folder or on a photo hosting site. From there it is easy to load onto Postimages.org with the 800 pixel width modifyer.


No, this forum has the most convoluted process to post photos of any forum I have used. I have no issues getting images into my pictures folder, that's easy. This is the only forum that requires users to load first onto another site.

[Edited on 11-4-2022 by surabi]

RFClark - 11-3-2022 at 08:50 PM

I post all of my pictures here directly as well. You just need to follow the rules!

surabi - 11-3-2022 at 09:03 PM

And where are the instructions to be found for how to insert a photo? This forum doesn't even make that evident.

Like this!

RFClark - 11-3-2022 at 10:10 PM



3B5AEA71-5214-4F5C-B645-5889F33B7C4A.jpeg - 148kB

4x4abc - 11-3-2022 at 10:36 PM

Quote: Originally posted by JDCanuck  
I have question for Harald or anyone else that drives into La Paz on Hwy 1 from the north. I have looked constantly for where the speed changes as you are driving into El Centenario from the gas station and have found no signage. What is the speed limit and where does it change? I have assumed 80kph and just after the restaurant and gas station. Am I right? No one seems to slow down until long after that.


coming into town, the first 60 sign is shortly after the gas station
across from restaurant La Parcelita
24° 7'1.41"N, 110°25'50.19"W

6 more follow until the nursing school crossing
there you'll see a 40 sign
one more 60 sign at the beginning of Chametla
followed by a 40 sign before the crosswalk
after that the max speed remains 60 up to Walmart
speed limit on Abasolo is 40

I know all this is academic since nobody follows the rules anyway


IMG_2044 centenario speed sign 800.jpg - 137kB

first speed limit sign coming into Centenario

JDCanuck - 11-4-2022 at 03:31 AM

Thanks Harald, that's a lot further in than I expected to see one, and now I know where the speed is expected to drop down from the quite unusually high highway speeds, altho somehow I failed to see that particular sign. I slow down well before that first 60 sign you posted right at the curve to La Ardila restaurant and the Pemex. And yeah, I agree...no one seems to do anywhere near the speed limits and seem to get quite upset I am slowing their progress.

[Edited on 11-4-2022 by JDCanuck]

David K - 11-4-2022 at 05:23 AM

Quote: Originally posted by surabi  
And where are the instructions to be found for how to insert a photo? This forum doesn't even make that evident.


In the very first post in the Nomad Photo & Video Gallery forum. http://forums.bajanomad.com/viewthread.php?tid=65085

Hosts your large file-size images onto a free site with an easy one click adjustment to change the original width of your photo to the Nomad max of 800 pixels.

RF points out another way, above, but that is only good for photos that are under 342 kb. Most of today's photos are closer to 1,000 kb+!

surabi - 11-4-2022 at 08:17 AM

Quote: Originally posted by David K  


In the very first post in the Nomad Photo & Video Gallery forum. http://forums.bajanomad.com/viewthread.php?tid=65085

Hosts your large file-size images onto a free site with an easy one click adjustment to change the original width of your photo to the Nomad max of 800 pixels.

RF points out another way, above, but that is only good for photos that are under 342 kb. Most of today's photos are closer to 1,000 kb+!


Now see, that's what I mean about convoluted. Every other forum has the instructions for posting a photo or atrachment in the User info for the site at the top of the home page. Not in some Photo Gallery section down below mixed in with a bunch of other forum sections.

I don't know why anyone needs to have their photos hosted onto a different photo site, which as I said, is
also convoluted. Most people have programs on their computers that can change the size of a photo.

RFClark- thanks for that info. I did try that once or twice, but maybe the photo was too large.

David K - 11-4-2022 at 09:43 AM

I didn't make the rules or set this site up.
I am just offering a method to allow anyone to post photos (no matter how 'big' they are in file size or in pixel width) here.

I am not disagreeing with you about how Nomad has not made things easy for non-tech people to add photos.

My post has helped many here add their own photos and Doug did pin it to the TOP post in the Photos forum.

If you want to add photos with your posts without reducing its quality to under the 342 kb size limit for Nomad hosting (it used to be 50 kb), just follow the steps... IT'S FREE TOO!

So, you don't feel pressured to go to te Photos forum, here are the instructions:

1) Go to www.Postimages.org, make an album if you want to organize your photos to find them easily in the future (by date or by subject). No cost to use Postimages.org.

2) Change the upload setting from "Do not resize my image" to 640x480 (recommended for forums) or 800x600 (max. on Nomad). You click on the little arrow to see the size choices.

3) Click "Choose images" and select the photos you want to put on Nomad from your Pictures folder.

4) Click on the image you want on Nomad and click on "Share" at the top of the screen.

5) Choose "Hotlinks for forums" (down next to the last one). You can click the little box at the right end of the link and it is now saved on your mouse.

6) Go to Nomad and paste that link onto the place where you are typing on Nomad. You can put text in below the photo for a caption for your post and if you double space between photo links (for clarity), you can put several photos and captions in a single post on Nomad. You can click "Preview" on Nomad to check and see how it will look before posting to the board.

If you need to fix a post after it is done, click on "Edit" along the edge of your post, and change or delete your post. If you edit more than once, you can delete the previous Edited on tags so only one edit tag will appear after you edit the post.
==============================================================

I am happy to help any Nomad understand my instructions or even post a photo for you if you have a problem doing it. At least try... Don't skip any of the steps, especailly #2.

bajatrailrider - 11-4-2022 at 11:13 AM

Quote: Originally posted by surabi  
Quote: Originally posted by bajatrailrider  
That is all fine and good David the good with bad . You said the good but nobody can post . Without the nut cases write anything but that. Or the worthless no nothing remarks then the hassle to post pictures. As far as sites less traffic not hardly many have moved on from here.


And then there are the posts that are almost impossible to decipher because the poster writes in run-on sentences with randomly inserted punctuation. :lol:

[Edited on 11-4-2022 by surabi]
I tried to leave you out of insane nut cases :lol: you understand every word I wrote back to join the nut cases:bounce:

john68 - 11-5-2022 at 07:28 AM

Is there some reason that posts cannot be moderated or users blocked by the reader? It’s common on other forums.

I find Baja Nomad much more user-friendly than FB. I share the frustration with abusive posts, but surely there’s a better answer than closing down.

David K - 11-5-2022 at 08:36 AM

Quote: Originally posted by john68  
Is there some reason that posts cannot be moderated or users blocked by the reader? It’s common on other forums.

I find Baja Nomad much more user-friendly than FB. I share the frustration with abusive posts, but surely there’s a better answer than closing down.


Oh, I don't think Doug (BajaNomad) is closing it down, we are just discussing how world and local events and Internet progress have lowered the activity. Since Nomad is not a full-time job for Doug and he will not ask for moderating assistance (which has been a disaster on Talk Baja for anyone that questions problems there... see the ever-growing 'Banned from Talk Baja' Facebook group), we will just have to try and hang on, self-moderate, play nice.

Blair - 11-5-2022 at 09:10 AM

I've been using this site for 12 years and though I haven't posted a ton I have gotten a lot of value out of it. You folks have a ton of genuinely useful real-time knowledge. The problems I see are: 1. The platform is dated. I'm not really technically challenged but if I want to post a picture (which I don't do frequently), I have to spent a few minutes researching how to do it so I just move on. I know, if I did it more I would remember. 2. Sometimes if I see a thread I'm interested in, I find myself sorting through a few pages of rock throwing and bickering. Some of that is normal but when it becomes a large part of the discussion, its off-putting and limits the value of the discussion. 3. With all the other social media options its hard to get new members involved. Although the niche of a site like this is great, the reality of the current environment is a factor. Nonetheless, I do visit here often and will continue. Thanks for all the info!

BajaBlanca - 11-5-2022 at 09:38 AM

I too find the information very interesting and full of genuinely useful real-time knowledge!

mtgoat666 - 11-5-2022 at 10:31 AM

Quote: Originally posted by David K  
. see the ever-growing 'Banned from Talk Baja' Facebook group),...


That must be quite an entertaining cesspool:lol::lol:

4x4abc - 11-5-2022 at 12:10 PM

.

a wise man once said.jpeg - 79kB

AKgringo - 11-5-2022 at 01:14 PM

Starve a troll...ignore their post!

bajatrailrider - 11-6-2022 at 10:03 AM

This site not going away as some good people here. Only thing losing many also due to. Difficulty post pictures and you know whos. Good day all

pacificobob - 11-6-2022 at 10:54 AM

Quote: Originally posted by bajatrailrider  
This site not going away as some good people here. Only thing losing many also due to. Difficulty post pictures and you know whos. Good day all


My sentiments exactly?

Skipjack Joe - 11-6-2022 at 10:59 AM

Facebook killed this site. When Ron Gomez created Talk Baja he pretty much gutted Nomads. But I recall a time when Ron was hospitalized and Nomads donated thousands of dollars for his hospital bills.

Baja has changed and that also has made Nomads less relevant. This was the site where intrepid travelers exchanged stories about their adventures. It became a family of adventurers that bonded through their experiences. There isn't that much adventure any more. People fly in, get their haul of fish, and fly out. And the ones that drive do so at 60mph where the landscape is a blur. That leaves us with nothing to talk about but covid and that dumb palm tree.

surfhat - 11-6-2022 at 12:20 PM

'That dumb palm tree'. That is a Baja haha statement if there ever was one. Thanks for the morning laugh Skipjack Joe.

How anyone can deny what is going on in the arctic is choosing ignorance over science. It is coming to all of us. How anyone can deny that human behavior and its endless pollution by fossil fuels is the cause of climate change is choosing ignorance over science.

The palm tree will continue to survive because of its somewhat protected location on the Bay of Conception where it is said all life begins. haha

Our future generations will know who to blame. Look to other locations in the polar regions where the impact is undeniable. They need us to wake the heck up. Now. It is coming our way. Maybe not while some of us are still taking a breath, but it will be.

Please try to consider a future that we have not had to deal with, but the children of our children undeniably will.

Peace and love and fish tacos. We can make a difference. Thanks Doug.

pauldavidmena - 11-6-2022 at 12:51 PM

Quote: Originally posted by Skipjack Joe  
Facebook killed this site. When Ron Gomez created Talk Baja he pretty much gutted Nomads. But I recall a time when Ron was hospitalized and Nomads donated thousands of dollars for his hospital bills.

Baja has changed and that also has made Nomads less relevant. This was the site where intrepid travelers exchanged stories about their adventures. It became a family of adventurers that bonded through their experiences. There isn't that much adventure any more. People fly in, get their haul of fish, and fly out. And the ones that drive do so at 60mph where the landscape is a blur. That leaves us with nothing to talk about but covid and that dumb palm tree.


I don't feel like Facebook could supplant a "bulletin board" like Baja Nomad. A Facebook group does have the advantage of appearing to be a vibrant community that fosters participation in near real-time, but in reality its effectiveness diminishes when it gets too big. That's when Facebook algorithms determine what you see in a group's feed. It gets worse if there's a particular thread you're trying to find and its relevance is too low to show up in a search. Recently Ron resurrected a new TalkBaja website - not to eliminate the Facebook Group, but rather to complement it. It would be interesting to get his take on the pros and cons of the two approaches.

I think Facebook Groups work well for very small niches that limit the size of the community. The Todos Santos Newsfeed, for example, started out modestly and was an excellent source of local information. Now that its membership is over 32,000, it's harder to follow, and Facebook's search functionality is extremely clunky. BajaNomad's search function is simple but effective. I use it whenever I am looking for some specific information and don't have time to wade through the chatter.

As we've seen, moderation is a double-edged sword. Too much can be perceived as censorship, and not enough makes for a lot of chaos. I don't know what the solution is, but I also think any reports of BajaNomad's imminent demise are premature.

My two pesos.

surabi - 11-6-2022 at 01:08 PM

Quote: Originally posted by surfhat  
'That dumb palm tree'. That is a Baja haha statement if there ever was one. Thanks for the morning laugh Skipjack Joe.

How anyone can deny what is going on in the arctic is choosing ignorance over science. It is coming to all of us. How anyone can deny that human behavior and its endless pollution by fossil fuels is the cause of climate change is choosing ignorance over science.

The palm tree will continue to survive because of its somewhat protected location on the Bay of Conception where it is said all life begins. haha

Our future generations will know who to blame. Look to other locations in the polar regions where the impact is undeniable. They need us to wake the heck up. Now. It is coming our way. Maybe not while some of us are still taking a breath, but it will be.

Please try to consider a future that we have not had to deal with, but the children of our children undeniably will.

Peace and love and fish tacos. We can make a difference. Thanks Doug.


For many of the man-made climate change deniers, it isn't a matter of ignorance so much as arrogance. It's the "no one can tell me what to do" attitude- they want to continue to crank up the heat and AC, take 20 minute hot showers, use up fossil fuels as if they are endless, buy cheap goods made in pollution spewing factories, etc. Twisting themselves in knots trying to deny that their chosen habits and lifestyle are contributing to climate change means they can continue being part of the problem without feeling guilty about it or accepting any responsibility.

David K - 11-6-2022 at 01:38 PM

Not that it matters with you eyesight deniers, but all the palm tree proves is that the sea level is still not higher than 80+ years ago... and with all that human climate change going on, one has to wonder, 'why not?'
Have a nice day! :)

mtgoat666 - 11-6-2022 at 02:42 PM

Quote: Originally posted by David K  
Not that it matters with you eyesight deniers, but all the palm tree proves is that the sea level is still not higher than 80+ years ago... and with all that human climate change going on, one has to wonder, 'why not?'
Have a nice day! :)


Globally, sea levels are rising due to human-caused climate change. Between 1901 and 2018, the globally averaged sea level rose by 15–25 cm (6–10 in), or 1–2 mm per year on average. This rate is accellerating, with sea levels now rising by 3.7 mm per year. Climate scientists expect further acceleration during the 21st century.

Climate change heats (and therefore expands) the ocean and melts land-based ice sheets and glaciers. Between 1993 and 2018, the thermal expansion of water contributed 42% to sea level rise; melting of temperate glaciers, 21%; Greenland, 15%; and Antarctica, 8%.

Over a longer timescale, the sea level is predicted to rise by 2–3 m (7–10 ft) if global warming is limited to 1.5 °C, by up to 6 m (20 ft) if it peaks at 2 °C and by 19–22 metres (62–72 ft) if it peaks at 5 °C.

surfhat - 11-6-2022 at 04:55 PM

Yes David, you are correct from the perspective of the Bay of Concepcion.

In the north and south pole areas, not so much. You have to know this is true but still are in denial.

Only man can fix the manmade deterioration of our climate. It may already be too late. None of us will be around as the livability declines for our species and many others. The manmade 6th? great extinction is at hand.

I have stated it before that your mission passion and Baja travels continue to be invaluable for us Nomad fans. Thank you for those submissions that are and will be always appreciated.

BajaGringo - 11-6-2022 at 07:24 PM

Quote: Originally posted by BajaBill74  
The number of posts per day is going WAY down. Can we save it?


Yes but it will require a new platform and increased moderation IMHO.
Quote: Originally posted by David K  
Since Nomad is not a full-time job for Doug and he will not ask for moderating assistance (which has been a disaster on Talk Baja for anyone that questions problems there... see the ever-growing 'Banned from Talk Baja' Facebook group), we will just have to try and hang on, self-moderate, play nice.


That “disaster” has gained more new members in the last four months than this forum has managed to accumulate in over 20 years online. When I shared with you in a private conversation my frustrations with Facebook, I wasn’t alluding to or insinuating I was giving up on it, I was only explaining my reasoning to pursue building another platform for users who were looking for something outside of Facebook.

The fact that there is a Facebook group that was created by "Banned Talk Baja Members" only demonstrates that we do have active moderation and when you combine that fact with forum activity data indicating that over half of our 86 thousand plus members are active in the group in any given week in time, is abundant proof that the vast majority of our membership disagrees with your constant complaints about our group.

In spite of repeated chances I gave you, you simply wanted to ignore the rules and treat it like it was your own sandbox, throwing a tantrum when other members didn't share your point of view. It was only finally after countless member complaints that I pulled the plug. And it wasn’t just "you asking questions on how things worked.”

You have very selective memory.

When I gave you another chance on talkbaja.com earlier this year, you self-imploded even faster the second time around and self evicted yourself when the going got rough after what – 3 days?.

I gave up trying to help you. I simply don’t have the time, patience or energy.
Quote: Originally posted by mtgoat666  
Quote: Originally posted by David K  
. see the ever-growing 'Banned from Talk Baja' Facebook group),...


That must be quite an entertaining cesspool:lol::lol:


:lol::lol::lol: No comment!
Quote: Originally posted by Skipjack Joe  
Facebook killed this site. When Ron Gomez created Talk Baja he pretty much gutted Nomads. But I recall a time when Ron was hospitalized and Nomads donated thousands of dollars for his hospital bills.


Wow Igor, where do I begin?

I never set out for Talk Baja to “gut” Nomad; when I created the forum at talkbaja.com - it was simply an idea I had to provide a discussion forum with more active moderation to help keep the discussions civil and on topic – mostly by keeping POLITICS out of the threads.

What I originally thought would only be attractive to a small group of people quickly grew and that unexpected growth was demanding an increasing investment of my time as managing the hosting and the constant software tweaks and fixes in addition to the discussion forum management became impossible with everything else I had going on offline back then.

Facebook presented me with an option and I understood from the get go that it was NOT a true replacement for a forum structure but a realistic alternative I could offer our membership to keep Talk Baja alive with the time I had available to invest back then.

I don’t believe for a minute that our growth on Facebook came at Nomad’s direct expense but simply reflected the overall move to social media. If it wasn’t Talk Baja, it would have been some other (You Fill in the Blank) Baja group that could have been started by anybody with some forum experience.

And Igor, for you to imply that Cristina and I aren’t eternally grateful to the members of this community who stepped up when we were hospitalized, you are gravely mistaken and I deeply resent the insinuation.

Our attackers not only left us for dead but robbed us of our personal effects which included my wallet, her purse, all of our IDs and bank cards. We had ZERO access to our accounts and I was in a coma. Once I was released from the hospital, it took several days for me to be able to walk assisted into a bank and begin the process to reestablish access to our accounts. When I did, I publicly and sincerely thanked EVERYONE here on Nomad who had helped and at the same time offered to reimburse anybody who had contributed to our hospital care.

A few did write me and I gladly paid them back, thanking them again for stepping up and helping out. To imply that I don’t appreciate this community and especially Doug and all his investment of time and expense over the years is a total and complete misrepresentation of reality.

As to your remarks on forums, traditional forum structures don’t seem to attract people as they did 20 years ago and unfortunately Doug got stuck with a platform that has been abandoned by its developers. There are several new forum options out there today and I have had private conversations with Doug as to suggested options he could look into to pursue with Nomad.

Baja Nomad has a huge database representing over 20 years of information and there is value in all of that information that could be made more attractive when presented on a different platform. I sincerely hope that Doug is successful in making the move and I wish him success. However that does bring up another glowing problem that has become a trend I have witnessed these past several years with online users.

Unless they are just feeling nostalgic or working on a history paper, more and more people today are much more interested to find out the most recent experiences of others, not what it was like several years ago.

There is a reason why encyclopedia collections are no longer offered as no matter how fast they can print them, by the time they can be distributed they are often - to a significant degree - already outdated and to some extent obsolete in this fast-paced world today where things are changing so quickly.

Online users today want fresh info and they want it now – they aren’t much interested in having to wait several hours or even days for answers.

That is true on travel forums, car forums and pretty much any other kind of forum you look at today and helps explain another reason why fewer people are using them now. And that includes those who don’t do social media as Google gives people countless options to find something with most of them looking for the latest info, not what someone did 10 or 15 years ago where a fishing captain may no longer work, new roads may now be paved, fences raised and gates now locked.
Quote: Originally posted by Skipjack Joe  
This was the site where intrepid travelers exchanged stories about their adventures. It became a family of adventurers that bonded through their experiences. There isn't that much adventure any more. People fly in, get their haul of fish, and fly out. And the ones that drive do so at 60mph where the landscape is a blur.


While the points you make have some validity, my sense is that it has more to due with the fact that most people today prefer to access the web via their cell phones. This forum is extremely difficult to follow on a phone and I hope Doug can make a move soon to a responsive platform format for Nomad. I believe that many inactive members will return when he does.
Quote: Originally posted by Skipjack Joe  
That leaves us with nothing to talk about but covid and that dumb palm tree.


On that we completely agree and why I have consistently refused to allow politics to seep into the discussions on Talk Baja. Our primary group rule is civility in the discussions and that seems impossible today whenever politics are injected. From the moment the very first political jab is made, a line is drawn and you have just split one half of the group from the other with hurt feelings and resentment from one thread carrying over into nearly all the other posted topics.

That kills a Facebook group and just about any non-politics themed forum as well.
Quote: Originally posted by pauldavidmena  
Recently Ron resurrected a new TalkBaja website - not to eliminate the Facebook Group, but rather to complement it. It would be interesting to get his take on the pros and cons of the two approaches.


It has been an interesting experiment and while more successful than I expected at this point, it has brought some surprises as well.

Our forums on talkbaja.com are only moderately active and one member recently started a thread on the differences between Talk Baja on Facebook and the forums at talkbaja.com with the responses mirroring some of the comments here. Many are active on both platforms but admit they go to Facebook when a quick or greater volume of responses are needed.

We get a lot more lurkers than participants on the forums, with lurkers outnumbering posters on average by about 200 to 1. Nearly 90% of our website traffic however visits our weather page, travel guides and news / story articles on the website

But that volume is dwarfed by Talk Baja on Facebook that is now averaging close to 800K users per 28 calendar days. (Facebook’s standard metric measuring period)

One of the more noticeable differences to me is that the forum structure on talkbaja.com (and here on Nomad as well) seems to draw mainly US and Canadian visitors and full/part-time expats, who by a clear majority are males.

We have a much more diverse audience on Facebook with the number of males and females at a 52/48% ratio along with a growing number of local Mexicans and other European visitors/expats becoming active in our Facebook group.

The input by so many of the locals down here has really been appreciated by our membership as they provide a new prospective on the history of this place that is coded in their DNA as well as sharing a lot insights on their local knowledge including the latest road conditions, unpublished alternate routes and other tidbits of info interesting to travlers as well as stepping up to assist members who posted an emergency need for themselves, a friend or family member in ways that I have never seen here on Nomad or anywhere else online for that matter.

Their participation in the group has really served to enrichen the experience for our members IMHO.

As far as too much activity, I hear you there as well and why I began creating new, related but more narrowly focused topic groups on road conditions, border waits, etc to dilute and absorb some of that increasing activity.

Over time I realized however that the only thing I really accomplished was to now have a large collection of different Baja themed groups with many of those today also seeing rapid growth. But the inherent problems remain of the lack of a comprehensive search tool (which admittedly has gotten better over the years) and the lack of any good tools for Facebook groups to help segregate and manage the diverse topics in the absence of that comprehensive search tool.

A couple years ago, Facebook asked me to join and participate in a closed group for those of us who manage large Facebook communities where we can share our frustrations and give them feedback on new features.

They do listen but change comes slowly and they keep telling me that they are working on a way to create sub-groups under a main general group as well as a much more comprehensive search tool. We'll see.

In the meantime we just keep growing no matter how many splinter groups I create. I expect that sometime next year we will exceed one million visitors in a single 28 day period in our main group alone, meaning there is a continues to be a growing interest in the topic of Baja.

What that means for traditional forums is a need to look for more creative ways to attract and keep more of those online users.
Quote: Originally posted by pauldavidmena  
As we've seen, moderation is a double-edged sword. Too much can be perceived as censorship, and not enough makes for a lot of chaos.


As far as censorship, you touch on another of the issues I have with Facebook today. The platform has been increasingly stepping up their enforcement of vaguely defined Facebook rules which I interpret to be largely based on Political Correctness. What were once “suggestions” from Facebook to group owners are now considered mandatory compliance, with Facebook now intervening and removing what they interpret as comments that “don’t meet the Facebook Community Standards.”

We do remove comments that violate our rules but I am often blamed by our members for deleted comments that actually were removed by Facebook. So based on what day it is and who you ask, I am either a N-zi, a facist or a karen.

Moderation can be a fine line to walk sometimes but I listen to the feedback from our membership (and I get a lot) which tells me if we went too far or not enough.

I know of no other way for a large discussion group to be able to stay alive and even grow today in this current political climate, it requires moderation governed by clearly stated and enforced rules IMHO.

But I am sure there are some who have a different opinion and I am all ears...

[Edited on 11-7-2022 by BajaGringo]

RFClark - 11-6-2022 at 08:22 PM

L,

Explain please how “moderation” differs from censorship on the rich thoughtful forum.

elgatoloco - 11-6-2022 at 10:10 PM

Lencho - can I get the backstory on the boat in the 3rd picture you posted?
Is it yours? Is that storm damage? Did something blow up? Is it still above the waterline? :saint::wow:

elgatoloco - 11-6-2022 at 10:39 PM

Quote: Originally posted by lencho  
Quote: Originally posted by Skipjack Joe  
Facebook killed this site. When Ron Gomez created Talk Baja he pretty much gutted Nomads.
Ron "gutted" this place?

All Ron did was offer an alternative, and people voted with their feet. If we could do a survey of those who abandoned BN we might better understand the reasons, but they're gone and we're stuck with conjecture by those who are still around.

My personal opinion is that a majority of online users prefer a more civil environment, but we'd have to ask those who left.


Civility is a virtue. It is harder for some to develop then others. It is sometimes hard to translate the tone of voice used on a message board and other times it is real easy.
When I have been attacked in the past by someone I will never know it registers a big fat zero on my give-a-chit meter. Life is too short to sweat the small stuff.

This board has been a great resource in the past and hopefully around for a long time.

JZ - 11-6-2022 at 11:48 PM

Quote: Originally posted by mtgoat666  
Quote: Originally posted by David K  
Not that it matters with you eyesight deniers, but all the palm tree proves is that the sea level is still not higher than 80+ years ago... and with all that human climate change going on, one has to wonder, 'why not?'
Have a nice day! :)


Globally, sea levels are rising due to human-caused climate change. Between 1901 and 2018, the globally averaged sea level rose by 15–25 cm (6–10 in), or 1–2 mm per year on average. This rate is accellerating, with sea levels now rising by 3.7 mm per year. Climate scientists expect further acceleration during the 21st century.

Climate change heats (and therefore expands) the ocean and melts land-based ice sheets and glaciers. Between 1993 and 2018, the thermal expansion of water contributed 42% to sea level rise; melting of temperate glaciers, 21%; Greenland, 15%; and Antarctica, 8%.

Over a longer timescale, the sea level is predicted to rise by 2–3 m (7–10 ft) if global warming is limited to 1.5 °C, by up to 6 m (20 ft) if it peaks at 2 °C and by 19–22 metres (62–72 ft) if it peaks at 5 °C.



Maybe that is true about rising sea levels. How much man is to cause is very much in doubt. As is man's ability to change anything.

What is not in doubt is ppl have been using one declared climate crisis after another for 60 years to raise money and influence voting. This one is just the latest. None of the previous doomsday predictions has panned out.




mtgoat666 - 11-7-2022 at 06:40 AM

Quote: Originally posted by JZ  


What is not in doubt is ppl have been using one declared climate crisis after another for 60 years to raise money and influence voting.


Silly little person, that’s how the political system works.

BajaGringo - 11-7-2022 at 08:30 AM

Quote: Originally posted by RFClark  
L,

Explain please how “moderation” differs from censorship on the rich thoughtful forum.


I get this question in my inbox from time to time...

Censorship is me using the rule of law to stop you from saying you what you want to say anywhere.

I look at forum moderation as a way to say “we don’t do that here.” That doesn’t push my personal morality or political beliefs on anyone. If they want to post that very same comment elsewhere, they are free to do so and I’m not telling them not to.

Moderation is our way of letting a user know that their comments are not in line with the our group/forum theme and/or governing values. I look at moderation as a social consequence.

Group and forum rules are boundaries to keep a particular social community on track with the stated central theme and to enforce values that reflect the intent of the group/forum owner; rules that are refined over time with feedback from our online social community.

Moderation is not personal - I have often moderated the comments of close friends, simply because their comments run afoul of the clearly stated rules they accepted to follow when joining our group/forum.

It's my way of saying "we don't do that here," as you might say to a guest in your home who swears loudly or wishes to argue politics around the Thanksgiving dinner table.

Did you censor him/her? Or was it just your way of saying "we don't do that here. All moderation decisions on a group or forum boil down to “we don’t do that here”.

What makes this different from censorship? Moderation lacks the force of law.

A group or forum admin can delete a comment and even suspend or ban a user for continuing to disregard the rules but we can’t stop that user from posting their comments elsewhere.

Just as you might ask someone to leave your home when they refuse to honor your requests to behave while a guest there but they are free to do so elsewhere, just not in your home.

JZ - 11-7-2022 at 08:48 AM

Quote: Originally posted by BajaGringo  
Quote: Originally posted by RFClark  
L,

Explain please how “moderation” differs from censorship on the rich thoughtful forum.


I get this question in my inbox from time to time...

Censorship is me using the rule of law to stop you from saying you what you want to say anywhere.

I look at forum moderation as a way to say “we don’t do that here.” That doesn’t push my personal morality or political beliefs on anyone. If they want to post that very same comment elsewhere, they are free to do so and I’m not telling them not to.

Moderation is our way of letting a user know that their comments are not in line with the our group/forum theme and/or governing values. I look at moderation as a social consequence.

Group and forum rules are boundaries to keep a particular social community on track with the stated central theme and to enforce values that reflect the intent of the group/forum owner; rules that are refined over time with feedback from our online social community.

Moderation is not personal - I have often moderated the comments of close friends, simply because their comments run afoul of the clearly stated rules they accepted to follow when joining our group/forum.

It's my way of saying "we don't do that here," as you might say to a guest in your home who swears loudly or wishes to argue politics around the Thanksgiving dinner table.

Did you censor him/her? Or was it just your way of saying "we don't do that here. All moderation decisions on a group or forum boil down to “we don’t do that here”.

What makes this different from censorship? Moderation lacks the force of law.

A group or forum admin can delete a comment and even suspend or ban a user for continuing to disregard the rules but we can’t stop that user from posting their comments elsewhere.

Just as you might ask someone to leave your home when they refuse to honor your requests to behave while a guest there but they are free to do so elsewhere, just not in your home.


What is your take on Facebook working with the Govt. to censor some messages?
https://nypost-com.cdn.ampproject.org/v/s/nypost.com/2022/11...


[Edited on 11-7-2022 by JZ]

BajaGringo - 11-7-2022 at 09:04 AM

Quote: Originally posted by JZ  
Quote: Originally posted by BajaGringo  
Quote: Originally posted by RFClark  
L,

Explain please how “moderation” differs from censorship on the rich thoughtful forum.


I get this question in my inbox from time to time...

Censorship is me using the rule of law to stop you from saying you what you want to say anywhere.

I look at forum moderation as a way to say “we don’t do that here.” That doesn’t push my personal morality or political beliefs on anyone. If they want to post that very same comment elsewhere, they are free to do so and I’m not telling them not to.

Moderation is our way of letting a user know that their comments are not in line with the our group/forum theme and/or governing values. I look at moderation as a social consequence.

Group and forum rules are boundaries to keep a particular social community on track with the stated central theme and to enforce values that reflect the intent of the group/forum owner; rules that are refined over time with feedback from our online social community.

Moderation is not personal - I have often moderated the comments of close friends, simply because their comments run afoul of the clearly stated rules they accepted to follow when joining our group/forum.

It's my way of saying "we don't do that here," as you might say to a guest in your home who swears loudly or wishes to argue politics around the Thanksgiving dinner table.

Did you censor him/her? Or was it just your way of saying "we don't do that here. All moderation decisions on a group or forum boil down to “we don’t do that here”.

What makes this different from censorship? Moderation lacks the force of law.

A group or forum admin can delete a comment and even suspend or ban a user for continuing to disregard the rules but we can’t stop that user from posting their comments elsewhere.

Just as you might ask someone to leave your home when they refuse to honor your requests to behave while a guest there but they are free to do so elsewhere, just not in your home.


What is your take on Facebook working with the Govt. to censor some messages?


I think they have taken it too far but I don't believe it is so much political as simply political correctness on steroids.

I say that because I see the Facebook feedback they give me justifying their reasons for removing a post or comment made and it often borders on ridiculous. But it crosses into both political camps.

Now they have added a new "feature" into our admin dashboard labled as "Flagged by Facebook" where they see potential confilcts escalating in discussions, pushing us to direct our attention to those threads.

Sometimes they are right but largely they misinterpret the mood where comments are clearly made tonque in cheek and joking. I largely fault their use of inadequately coded AI given the moderation power that Facebook bestows on them.

However the experience last year of having one of our groups - a Spanish language group for the San Quintin area that had grown to over 160K members - be completely removed by Facebook for lax moderation taught me that if I intend to stay on Facebook, I will have to follow their rules.

They are clearly telling me “we don’t do that here,” and it's my decision to stay or leave. Solely due to the enormouse size of our online community there, I choose to stay for now but the building of the platform at talkbaja.com was designed to provide an offramp for our members who decide for themselves that they are no longer willing to do so.

And believe me, I get it.

In the meantime, as long as we never grow so big that I am forced to convert to AI moderation, I think we'll be OK with good men and women helping me moderate our community, keeping us on track and generally civil.


[Edited on 11-7-2022 by BajaGringo]

BajaGringo - 11-7-2022 at 09:18 AM

Quote: Originally posted by JZ  
What is your take on Facebook working with the Govt. to censor some messages?

https://nypost-com.cdn.ampproject.org/v/s/nypost.com/2022/11...

[Edited on 11-7-2022 by JZ]


I hadn't seen the link when I responded, I assume you edited to add?

Reading that - in my mind it clearly crosses the line into censorship. Could valid cases be made regarding threats to human life or even national security?

Sure, but my kneejerk reaction would be to trust those requests coming from law enforcement or the Pentagon much more than from the White House, no matter which party is the current occupant.

[Edited on 11-7-2022 by BajaGringo]

RFClark - 11-7-2022 at 09:56 AM

I originally asked the question because I don’t see the Corporate “public squares” as being moderated with an equal hand. I would define “Moderation” as most people see it, as something that they agree with and “Censorship” as something they don’t.

There has been a growing tendency over my lifetime and in my personal opinion to try and accomplish social change by means other than letting the issue be decided at the ballot box.

This tendency predates the internet. There was and still is a rather large group of generally like minded people in what could be loosely grouped as the media/information industry who wish to push their vision of what society should look like.

No one voted for any of these individuals past watching or reading their products and buying their soap.

They share a common tendency to be rather dismissive and intolerant of ideas that don’t support or agree with their goals. They also share a tendency to overlook and even protect the personal weaknesses of their peers and those who can further their goals.

They do use moderation to censor ideas and individuals they see as a threat or who just disagree with them.

I can speak to this because I worked with and for a number of these people for decades.

The 1st Amendment should apply to all public forums and it should be remembered that anti-discrimination laws even apply to private clubs.

Obviously there is speech that should be banned the devil is in the how is that decided and by who.

Past a belief that more not less speech should be tolerated the answer is above my paygrade.

wilderone - 11-7-2022 at 10:08 AM

My dos centavos. Baja Nomad has experienced declining activity as compared to several years ago. Many of the regular posters who were "old timers" and had lots of stories to tell and experiences to share have passed away. And though there are still plenty of Baja travelers these days, I would bet the majority are of the fly into Cabo, party for a week at an all-inclusive and fly out variety. Not BajaNomad fodder. Snowbirds from Canada in their RVs - ditto. The Overlander App crowd - not into maps and the subtleties that lie therein. The "I'm going to LaPaz what should I do there?" mentality -- the Talk Baja crowd. Those people are so lame. And if there is a hint of criticism in a reply on Talk Baja you are suspended - I've gotten suspended there twice already. So I appreciate my freedom on BajaNomad to sling an appropriate insult now and then. In sum, the mode and mentality of travel in Baja California is changing, as well as new development with its fences and private lands (i.e., road to San Fernando mission - used to be one of my favorite camping spots), and old dirt roads which are no longer passable due to storms (e.g. the road from El Alamo to Rio San Ignacio). As for me, I'm getting older and don't have a newish 4WD vehicle to ensure to a great extent a successful journey to off-the-beaten-path locales by myself. My wonderful, fearless travel buddy has passed away. Recent stories like Rod __? and his dog who disappeared from Juncalito area give me pause. (But this is the type of info that Baja travelers need to know and learned on BajaNomad -- and its concomitant lessons: I don't think I will ever travel with my bank debit card any longer.) I will continue to travel to Baja, but with other destinations in the world to choose to spend the travel dollar, will likely be fewer trips than in the past. Nonetheless, BajaNomad is a unique website for all things Baja, with its wealth of archived trip reports, up to the minute storm reports, photos, etc. - invaluable. Posters have always come through when I have a question - where else would I get that advice.

surabi - 11-7-2022 at 10:30 AM

"The 1st Amendment should apply to all public forums..."

Are you aware that so-called "public" forums are actually privately owned? The advertiser(s) finance the running of the site, and can decide to use any moderators they choose to, or close the forum down at any time.

JZ - 11-7-2022 at 10:53 AM

Quote: Originally posted by BajaGringo  
Quote: Originally posted by JZ  
What is your take on Facebook working with the Govt. to censor some messages?

https://nypost-com.cdn.ampproject.org/v/s/nypost.com/2022/11...

[Edited on 11-7-2022 by JZ]


I hadn't seen the link when I responded, I assume you edited to add?

Reading that - in my mind it clearly crosses the line into censorship. Could valid cases be made regarding threats to human life or even national security?

Sure, but my kneejerk reaction would be to trust those requests coming from law enforcement or the Pentagon much more than from the White House, no matter which party is the current occupant.



Agree 100%.

mtgoat666 - 11-7-2022 at 10:59 AM

Quote: Originally posted by surabi  
"The 1st Amendment should apply to all public forums..."

Are you aware that so-called "public" forums are actually privately owned? The advertiser(s) finance the running of the site, and can decide to use any moderators they choose to, or close the forum down at any time.


A strong argument can be made that certain privately-owned and investor-owned social media are monopolies that serve a public good and should be regulated like elec, water and telecom utilities, and they should be regulated at state level by public service commissions.

BajaGringo - 11-7-2022 at 11:13 AM

Quote: Originally posted by RFClark  

They share a common tendency to be rather dismissive and intolerant of ideas that don’t support or agree with their goals. They also share a tendency to overlook and even protect the personal weaknesses of their peers and those who can further their goals.

They do use moderation to censor ideas and individuals they see as a threat or who just disagree with them.


As far as the press goes, today there are plenty of network options, ranging from the extreme left to hardcore right, supporting everything from outright racism to ridiculous woke extremism.

What is extremely difficult to find these days is a news network in the format style of Walter Conkrite, simply presenting the news - the known facts - without slanted bias or adding any personal opinions / commentary.

Facebook however is another animal IMHO.

As one who has been deeply involved in building and managing discussion forum structures going back to the early BBS days of the late 1970's and early 80's, I have seen how it has evolved to where we are today and as a lifetime conservative who changed his registration from Republican to Independent in 2016, I can assure you that from my view here in the middle, that moderation cutting knife slices fairly evenly on Facebook.

On Twitter, I would agree it has been biased to favor the left.

I have studied Zuckerberg for a long time and have come to the conclusion that as far as his management of Facebook, he is largely apolitical. For every comment or post deleted pushing Republican talking points, I can show you an equal number of talking points from the Democrats that were removed as well.

But when we look at it from a biased eye we tend to only notice when they remove those posts or comments made which we support politically.

I despised Donald Trump and what he has turned our political structure into and during 2020, Facebook deleted literally hundreds of my comments and posts that spoke out against him. If you follow anything I post online, I do not make personal threats, use foul language or espouse hate speach; I simply pointed out my reasons for not supporting him and they were constantly moderated by Facebook, including one group I started and a few pages that were completely taken down by Facebook.

I also saw the very same action taken to pages and groups supporting Trump on Facebook.

That's when I realized that Mark's long term goal is to make Facebook a space that complies with his extreme definition of Political Correctness that is enforced by AI moderation that allows for little recourse or appeal.

Facebook does offer an appeal process but I have only personally witnessed them reverse an AI modetration call just a few times of the hundreds of appeals I have made over the years on my own behalf as well as for deleted comments and posts from our members.

Zuckerberg's reasoning can only be revenue generated.

Reading between the lines of his comments made to his shareholders, his goal is to make sure he keeps us all engaged while abiding by his strict rules of PC to help broaden the reach of his online audience.

Doing so (he believes) will keep increasing the size of the overall Facebook community while "offending" as few as possible to help him keep increasing the advertising revenue on his platform.

With Zuckerberg, it's all about the money and little to do with political bias IMHO. But human nature tends to make us more sensitive to the moderation when it aligns with our personal point of view.

[Edited on 11-7-2022 by BajaGringo]

JDCanuck - 11-7-2022 at 11:39 AM

It truly would be unfortunate if a site such as this one would follow all the other similar sites and die just because people could not accept other people's opinions.
This site was suggested to me as a helpful place to obtain information regarding my new home, and it has certainly accomplished that for me.
I have watched others chase helpful people around any thread they chose to open and trash them personally just because they obviously support an opposing political party, with nothing to add to the subject posted. It just happens that those same people have voluntarily contributed a fair amount for my benefit and I am thankful for the aid they offered.
This is where moderators come in, and rightly so. Please let the rest of us continue to benefit by the experiences and knowledge they are willing to offer without trying to chase them off "YOUR" site.
And special thanks to the person that formed this site, it remains a wealth of knowledge for people looking for answers despite the personal conflicts

[Edited on 11-7-2022 by JDCanuck]

BajaGringo - 11-7-2022 at 11:56 AM

Quote: Originally posted by lencho  
Quote: Originally posted by BajaGringo  
As one who has been deeply involved in building and managing discussion forum structures going back to the early BBS days of the late 1970's and early 80's,

That was indeed early days. What platforms were those?

I was active with CompuServe, the Well and Usenet, but it sounds like you predated even those. :O

[Edited on 11-7-2022 by lencho]


I owned and managed independent testing labs and we had a contract with JPL in Pasadena to conduct a testing program of the fluids and lubricants that were specified in the design and building of the ISS.

JPL wanted their testing data in real time so they came to our main lab and installed a UNIX based computer system and hardware that would connect us via ARPANET.

From there it would expand and branch out with an increasing amount of messaging traffic moving into some of the other online systems like usenet but as I recall, most of the data transfer happened over ARPANET for a number of years.

I believe it was on the usenet (or might have been the bitnet?) that I built and managed the first BBS systems that were really quite simple but the Phd's at NASA and JPL loved it and went at it like angry kids on the playground at recess.

And that's where I first began developing my skills in online moderation.

[Edited on 11-7-2022 by BajaGringo]

RFClark - 11-7-2022 at 01:03 PM

S,

Are you aware that Facebook & Twitter like commercial forums have a special dispensation on regulating content and users as long as they don’t regulate in a way that favors a particular lawful viewpoint.

When they enforce the views of any government, agency, or group by delisting or removal of counter legal viewpoints they are in violation of their exemption. Since the current federal Administration is delighted by this suppression and loves the campaign contributions. Nothing is done about it.

Tomorrow could see that change!

surabi - 11-7-2022 at 01:24 PM

Goat and RF Clark, I was not referring to huge social media platforms like Facebook and Twitter, etc. I was referring to independent forums like this one and other small special interest forums, generally owned by someone, often the main advertiser.

[Edited on 11-7-2022 by surabi]

RFClark - 11-7-2022 at 01:40 PM

S,

Size is not the issue. The same rules apply! Sites that receive revenue from ads and or clicks, are to my knowledge covered. Sites that require membership might not be as long as the content is lawful. What is “lawful” has become a very slippery concept recently. The news media and talking heads do not define “lawful”. You are not required to prove that your conduct is or was lawful. The burden of proof falls on the government. The 10th amendment applies to states and localities equally.

Canada is very different. The Charter of Rights places the Federal Parliament as supreme.

Mexico is even worse!

Down memory lane

Sharksbaja - 11-7-2022 at 04:13 PM

Wow! Not a whole lot has changed I see. Looks like I last posted in 2010. It was a tumultuous end for me at BN. After being accused of being nefarious with Nomad donations in the aftermath of Hurricane John, I realized that the trust was gone.

I posted dollar amounts and actual photos of the gear purchased and delivered to the bomberos, yet a couple people believed I had done something else with their donation. That was after being grossed out by a constant deluge of perverse GIFs in the off-topic, which spilled over daily into the forum. So Skipjack, there is the reason for my departure. The politics got ugly so I decided to go check out TalkBaja.

I was immediately sucked into a political fray with Ron who did not tolerate me equating some of his remarks to Trump. I get that. What could be worse? It was a new bad experience for me and so I abandoned social media for many years after that. It's hard not to get personal with politics sometimes and the wording sometimes doesn't translate well.

I still lurk at BN and feel unwelcome at TB. I suppose had I known exactly how sensitive Ron was I would never have engaged him politically. That was 12 years ago and I am still upset(kidding of course). I suppose I just did not accept or understand his "Independent" stance.

BN had it's day the in the sun and the final straw for me is when Doug told me in a PM that my days of being popular were over. He was right of course but that's no way to treat your members. It is a wealth of info at BN but like was said appeals to fewer people who have myriad options now.

It really bothered me when the emoticon: :dudette: I designed for Doug was claimed to have been made by them.
In our restaurant I don't do politics but boy that doesn't stop the loudest ones. Sheesh.:rolleyes: Looks like Ron has his hands full. Good luck to you all. It was a cool site for a long time. Even with you DK!:tumble: I do appreciate you giving me credit for finding your "wall". :cool: That's my story and I'm sticking to it. Y'all have a good holiday season. As one infamous Nomad (Gene?) once said, done here!

Skipjack Joe - 11-7-2022 at 05:30 PM

Quote: Originally posted by BajaGringo  


Quote: Originally posted by Skipjack Joe  
Facebook killed this site. When Ron Gomez created Talk Baja he pretty much gutted Nomads. But I recall a time when Ron was hospitalized and Nomads donated thousands of dollars for his hospital bills.


And Igor, for you to imply that Cristina and I aren’t eternally grateful to the members of this community who stepped up when we were hospitalized, you are gravely mistaken and I deeply resent the insinuation.

Our attackers not only left us for dead but robbed us of our personal effects which included my wallet, her purse, all of our IDs and bank cards. We had ZERO access to our accounts and I was in a coma. Once I was released from the hospital, it took several days for me to be able to walk assisted into a bank and begin the process to reestablish access to our accounts. When I did, I publicly and sincerely thanked EVERYONE here on Nomad who had helped and at the same time offered to reimburse anybody who had contributed to our hospital care.

A few did write me and I gladly paid them back, thanking them again for stepping up and helping out. To imply that I don’t appreciate this community and especially Doug and all his investment of time and expense over the years is a total and complete misrepresentation of reality.

[Edited on 11-7-2022 by BajaGringo]


You are absolutely right, Ron, and I apologize for that remark. It does insinuate something and it was wrong to make any connection. I really don't know why I wrote that. It was a cheap shot. Anyway, I don't think anyone really regretted helping out financially and would even do so today. An interesting question: would such a callout provide the same help today on TalkBaja?

Regarding the gutting of Nomads. I never stated that that was the intention. I didn't even imply that it was the creation of a new venue rather than the advantages of a more powerful technology that was responsible. But the fact remains that there were 30,000 registered users in the first year at Talk Baja and there aren't enough comments on Nomads each day to fill half a page. So one went up and the other went down. Maybe it's just a coincidence but I don't think so. I don't even think it's the level moderation so much. It's technology. For example: I am writing you this response and I have no idea if you'll read it. However, had this been written on Talk Baja you would receive a notification as soon as I finished my post. It's stuff like that that gutted Nomads.

Nomads has died of a thousand blows, some of which could have been avoided but most could not. I don't begrudge the success of Talk Baja. At least they don't allow 2 or 3 people to dominate a website with mind numbing repetition.

BajaGringo - 11-7-2022 at 05:37 PM

Quote: Originally posted by Sharksbaja  

I was immediately sucked into a political fray with Ron who did not tolerate me equating some of his remarks to Trump. I get that. What could be worse? It was a new bad experience for me and so I abandoned social media for many years after that. It's hard not to get personal with politics sometimes and the wording sometimes doesn't translate well.


Sorry for that amigo and I admit that I have some regrets over the ways I handled some exchanges in the early going - especiallly involving politics.

There was a lot of some very extreme abuse directed my way back then that I didn't share publicly that was 100% from the GOP - a party I had been loyal to since I was old enough to vote, angry with me that I simply was not willing to accompany them in their big shift to the extreme right fringe.

I am an Independent today and I believe there is a LOT wrong in BOTH major parties as both are being run now by the extreme fringes of each side who now have their spineless mainstream politicians by the short hairs.

The entire experience did indeed leave a mark on me and I probably over reacted at times, especially with anything I interpreted as being pushed on me from the right. I accept that and I sincerely apologize to you if I did with you at that time.

The only positive that came out of it was that the entire experience did help me to develop much thicker skin and a better rules and a moderation program which today I must also comply with. It is is working, based on our growth, traffic numbers and member retention/participation as well as overall feedback I get each day.

You are always welcome back and PM me or email me if you'd prefer to talk offline.

Peace...





Skipjack Joe - 11-7-2022 at 05:57 PM

Quote: Originally posted by wilderone  
My dos centavos. Baja Nomad has experienced declining activity as compared to several years ago. Many of the regular posters who were "old timers" and had lots of stories to tell and experiences to share have passed away. And though there are still plenty of Baja travelers these days, I would bet the majority are of the fly into Cabo, party for a week at an all-inclusive and fly out variety. Not BajaNomad fodder. Snowbirds from Canada in their RVs - ditto. The Overlander App crowd - not into maps and the subtleties that lie therein. The "I'm going to LaPaz what should I do there?" mentality -- the Talk Baja crowd. Those people are so lame. And if there is a hint of criticism in a reply on Talk Baja you are suspended - I've gotten suspended there twice already. So I appreciate my freedom on BajaNomad to sling an appropriate insult now and then. In sum, the mode and mentality of travel in Baja California is changing, as well as new development with its fences and private lands (i.e., road to San Fernando mission - used to be one of my favorite camping spots), and old dirt roads which are no longer passable due to storms (e.g. the road from El Alamo to Rio San Ignacio). As for me, I'm getting older and don't have a newish 4WD vehicle to ensure to a great extent a successful journey to off-the-beaten-path locales by myself. My wonderful, fearless travel buddy has passed away. Recent stories like Rod __? and his dog who disappeared from Juncalito area give me pause. (But this is the type of info that Baja travelers need to know and learned on BajaNomad -- and its concomitant lessons: I don't think I will ever travel with my bank debit card any longer.) I will continue to travel to Baja, but with other destinations in the world to choose to spend the travel dollar, will likely be fewer trips than in the past. Nonetheless, BajaNomad is a unique website for all things Baja, with its wealth of archived trip reports, up to the minute storm reports, photos, etc. - invaluable. Posters have always come through when I have a question - where else would I get that advice.


Thank you for this thoughtful post. I agree with most of it. It's refreshing to see a post on this thread that's not of the tit for tat variety (see palm tree comments that have been continuing for over a decade).

BajaGringo - 11-7-2022 at 06:04 PM

Quote: Originally posted by Skipjack Joe  

You are absolutely right, Ron, and I apologize for that remark. It does insinuate something and it was wrong to make any connection. I really don't know why I wrote that. It was a cheap shot. Anyway, I don't think anyone really regretted helping out financially and would even do so today. An interesting question: would such a callout provide the same help today on TalkBaja?

Regarding the gutting of Nomads. I never stated that that was the intention. I didn't even imply that it was the creation of a new venue rather than the advantages of a more powerful technology that was responsible. But the fact remains that there were 30,000 registered users in the first year at Talk Baja and there aren't enough comments on Nomads each day to fill half a page. So one went up and the other went down. Maybe it's just a coincidence but I don't think so. I don't even think it's the level moderation so much. It's technology. For example: I am writing you this response and I have no idea if you'll read it. However, had this been written on Talk Baja you would receive a notification as soon as I finished my post. It's stuff like that that gutted Nomads.

Nomads has died of a thousand blows, some of which could have been avoided but most could not. I don't begrudge the success of Talk Baja. At least they don't allow 2 or 3 people to dominate a website with mind numbing repetition.


I appreciate and accept the apology Igor and I probably got overly sensitive on the "gutting" comment based on what I believed to be your insuation in the other paragraph. So I apologize to you for that amigo.

Would such an event get such a response on Talk Baja today?

Good question, as it's never really been put to the test in that specific type of scenario to date but based on posts where members have posted differrent types of emergency needs down here, the response is generally quite swift and very good.

One recent post of a mom looking for her 18 -20 year old son in Tijuana was shared over 7000 times in 24 hours and that initial post generated several million views in less than 3 days, so yes - I do think the response would be good, just differrent.

Instead of a significant % of the contributors making 100, 500 and even 1,000 dollar contributions by the several dozen who did here on Nomad, you would likely see perhaps 5, 6 or 700 members - maybe a thousand or more depending on the situation making between 10, 20, and 50 dollar contributions with several members making 100 dollar or more contributions. The tight, small community feeling is not there like here on Nomad but the willingness to step up and help when needed is indeed felt and practiced by a majority of our members.

I feel quite confident in saying that.

There is a lot of help generated on Talk Baja to specific needs posted that isn't broadcast in public group posts like here on Nomad when they happen. I am involved often in coordinating efforts offline between some of our members who want to help with a particular needy case and they often request it be done privately - not publicy.

Being on social media - I get that they don't want that news to go viral.

There is a lot I don't like about Facebook but it definitely has its positive side too, just as Nomad has and I hope continues to be able to offer.

Peace amigo...

[Edited on 11-8-2022 by BajaGringo]

elgatoloco - 11-7-2022 at 06:06 PM

Quote: Originally posted by BajaGringo  



Quote: Originally posted by David K  
Since Nomad is not a full-time job for Doug and he will not ask for moderating assistance (which has been a disaster on Talk Baja for anyone that questions problems there... see the ever-growing 'Banned from Talk Baja' Facebook group), we will just have to try and hang on, self-moderate, play nice.


That “disaster” has gained more new members in the last four months than this forum has managed to accumulate in over 20 years online. When I shared with you in a private conversation my frustrations with Facebook, I wasn’t alluding to or insinuating I was giving up on it, I was only explaining my reasoning to pursue building another platform for users who were looking for something outside of Facebook.

The fact that there is a Facebook group that was created by "Banned Talk Baja Members" only demonstrates that we do have active moderation and when you combine that fact with forum activity data indicating that over half of our 86 thousand plus members are active in the group in any given week in time, is abundant proof that the vast majority of our membership disagrees with your constant complaints about our group.

In spite of repeated chances I gave you, you simply wanted to ignore the rules and treat it like it was your own sandbox, throwing a tantrum when other members didn't share your point of view. It was only finally after countless member complaints that I pulled the plug. And it wasn’t just "you asking questions on how things worked.”

You have very selective memory.

When I gave you another chance on talkbaja.com earlier this year, you self-imploded even faster the second time around and self evicted yourself when the going got rough after what – 3 days?.

I gave up trying to help you. I simply don’t have the time, patience or energy.

[Edited on 11-7-2022 by BajaGringo]


Talk Baja is nice. Keep up the good work Ron.

BajaGringo - 11-7-2022 at 06:21 PM

Quote: Originally posted by Skipjack Joe  
But the fact remains that there were 30,000 registered users in the first year at Talk Baja and there aren't enough comments on Nomads each day to fill half a page.


Just to set the record straight...

Talk Baja on Facebook only had a little over 8,000 members at the end of our first year and it would take 2½ years to reach 30,000. Our growth planed out just slightly after that but remained steady for a few years until it began climbing quickly again in 2019. Then the pandemic hit and like everything else travel related - it slowed down to only 4 or 500 new members each month for a couple of years. Now in 2022, it began accelerating earlier this year.

We may reach 90,000 members before the end of 2022 with any luck and we should easily surpass 100K in 2023, barring another pandemic or Mexican Revolution.

It's indeed a challenge to maintain the community feel with such a large group but I have been developing tools to help me do just that which I began rolling out earlier this year. And they seem to be working in keeping the group engaged, mostly civil and inviting their friends and families to join.

It's a constant process of learning and adapting.

[Edited on 11-8-2022 by BajaGringo]

Don Pisto - 11-7-2022 at 06:26 PM

Quote: Originally posted by Skipjack Joe  
Quote: Originally posted by BajaGringo  


Quote: Originally posted by Skipjack Joe  
Facebook killed this site. When Ron Gomez created Talk Baja he pretty much gutted Nomads. But I recall a time when Ron was hospitalized and Nomads donated thousands of dollars for his hospital bills.


And Igor, for you to imply that Cristina and I aren’t eternally grateful to the members of this community who stepped up when we were hospitalized, you are gravely mistaken and I deeply resent the insinuation.

Our attackers not only left us for dead but robbed us of our personal effects which included my wallet, her purse, all of our IDs and bank cards. We had ZERO access to our accounts and I was in a coma. Once I was released from the hospital, it took several days for me to be able to walk assisted into a bank and begin the process to reestablish access to our accounts. When I did, I publicly and sincerely thanked EVERYONE here on Nomad who had helped and at the same time offered to reimburse anybody who had contributed to our hospital care.

A few did write me and I gladly paid them back, thanking them again for stepping up and helping out. To imply that I don’t appreciate this community and especially Doug and all his investment of time and expense over the years is a total and complete misrepresentation of reality.

[Edited on 11-7-2022 by BajaGringo]




Nomads has died of a thousand blows, some of which could have been avoided but most could not. I don't begrudge the success of Talk Baja. At least they don't allow 2 or 3 people to dominate a website with mind numbing repetition.


or just one.......the best part of TB is who ISN'T there ;)