BajaNomad - Spanish emersion classes?

Spanish emersion classes?

Howard - 11-7-2022 at 12:52 PM

I would really like to communicate better with people in Mexico and my current Spanish is maybe a 3 on a 1-10 scale. I know words but my grammar and tenses leave a lot to be desired. I am to damn old to learn out of a book or go back to school and was seriously thinking about emersion.

I may be in Toulouse, France in May of 2023 to attend the Rugby 7s and Spain is just a train ride away. There is a company by the name of Anders that has what I think I am looking for in Toledo and I could attend before or after I go to France. I was thinking 2 weeks of the home stay emersion.

The question is does anyone in there advanced years (I'm 76) ever done an emersion and if so how would you rate your communication skills after Vs before?

Any feedback would be appreciated.

RFClark - 11-7-2022 at 01:53 PM

Well, If you are single the best language immersion is to find a “living dictionary”! Watching Spanish language news is good too. I’m your age and still learning new words. If too many speak English answer in Spanish. That’s a win - win!

mtgoat666 - 11-7-2022 at 01:58 PM

I think you want immersion, not emersion. emersion is a process of exiting and immersion is a process of entering.

Howard - 11-7-2022 at 02:08 PM

Quote: Originally posted by mtgoat666

I think you want immersion, not emersion. emersion is a process of exiting and immersion is a process of entering.

Maybe I should be looking for an English course instead!

surabi - 11-7-2022 at 03:06 PM

Quote: Originally posted by Howard

I would really like to communicate better with people in Mexico and my current Spanish is maybe a 3 on a 1-10 scale. I know words but my grammar and tenses leave a lot to be desired. I am to damn old to learn out of a book...

Not sure what you mean by this. Being old has nothing to do with being able to learn from a book.

There are visual vs. auditory learners. Personally, I am a visual learner, so books work well for me. Just hearing a word, even if it is explained to me, unless it is derived from a word I already know, prwtty much goes in one ear and out the other. But if I see it written down I retain it.

So first you should try to determine how you learn most easily. If you think it's auditory, then immersion or conversational Spanish classes may be just what you need.

But even as a visual learner, it doesn't work for me to just try to memorize words or verb conjugations. What has worked great for me is to look up what I actually need to say. Because I then use it, I learn and retain it.

I have a good Spanish/English dictionary, the book "501 Spanish Verbs" for the conjugations, and understand basic Spanish grammar (as in unlike English, the adjective usually follows the verb).

So lets say I need to go to the hardware store and buy some sandpaper. I would look up how to say "I'm looking for some sandpaper",or "I would like some sandpaper", using the correct verb tenses and grammar. I write it down and either memorize it or take it with me to the store. Because I used it right away for something that was necessary, I find I remember it.

And now that I know how to say "I would like some...", the next time I need something, I just have to look up the word for something else if I don't know it.

This is how I taught myself Spanish little by little, and while I wouldn't be able to carry on a fluent, in-depth political discussion with an educated Mexican, I can express myself pretty well in everyday life, using correct verb tenses and person, and local Mexicans tell me my Spanish is good. It isn't really, my vocabulary leaves a lot to be desired, but my accent is fairly good compared to a lot of foreigners.

And one thing I can tell you is that when you get to the point where you realize you are understanding and able to speak more of a conversation than you don't understand, a leap happens where it becomes a lot easier to learn faster, because you are fluent in the basics.

[Edited on 11-7-2022 by surabi]

RFClark - 11-7-2022 at 03:39 PM

S,

You can learn to read a language from a book. You can not learn to speak a language any other way except to speak it with natives. About 60% of conversational communication is rote. It doesn’t become complicated until you need to parse sentences and construct an answer. You need to learn the rote phrases by heart. Then the hard part is dealing with sentences without translating into and out of your native language. Recognizing a question is important and can be learned by watching television or listening to the radio.

Regional slang and accents are a problem that can only be dealt with in the field communicating with the users.

You know that you are making progress when you can recognize regional accents and slang.

Howard - 11-7-2022 at 03:49 PM

Another minor concern is that I would be attending the immersion in Spain. I know it certainly couldn't hurt but I wonder how much of what I learn (remember and retain) will be looked at with a deer in the headlight when I try and converse in Baja?

Thanks for all the replies.

RFClark - 11-7-2022 at 03:59 PM

When I was in Spain I could understand and be understood reasonably well. I speak Radio and TV Spanish more or less. Spaniards do use different words for some things and some (especially from Madrid) think a Mexican accent is the sign of a hick!

surabi - 11-7-2022 at 06:46 PM

Quote: Originally posted by RFClark

S,

You can learn to read a language from a book. You can not learn to speak a language any other way except to speak it with natives. About 60% of conversational communication is rote. It doesn’t become complicated until you need to parse sentences and construct an answer. You need to learn the rote phrases by heart. Then the hard part is dealing with sentences without translating into and out of your native language. Recognizing a question is important and can be learned by watching television or listening to the radio.

Regional slang and accents are a problem that can only be dealt with in the field communicating with the users.

You know that you are making progress when you can recognize regional accents and slang.

You apparently didn't understand anything I wrote. Of course you need to converse. My point was that I can teach myself vocabulary and verb conjugations from a book, which are then used in conversation. It so happens that a lot of Mexicans actually speak hillbilly Spanish and actually use incorrect words for things and poor gramnar, which isn't a matter of regional dialects, it's just bad, uneducated Spanish, just as many native English speakers have poor grammar.

My Spanish improved a lot when I built my house, as I was my own contractor and ran the crew. None of them spoke English and they taught me a lot.

RFClark - 11-7-2022 at 07:08 PM

S,

That’s how I learned the little Spanish I know. 40 years working in Mexico and the Americas with local crews.

I’m not big on grammar!

RFClark - 11-7-2022 at 08:15 PM

First, it was a number of times over 40 years not the entire 40 years.

Second, at least in my opinion, the best stories didn’t happen in Mexico.

But, here’s one that did happen in Cuernavaca in the late ‘80s

I was working on a Tony Scott feature called “Revenge” if you watch the movie there’s a scene between Kevin Costner, Madeline Stowe and Anthony Quinn that takes place at night beside a large swimming pool. Anthony Hopkins is sitting in a chair watching a large for the time TV.

How the scene was blocked was different! The TV was a small portable that I brought from the states as baggage which caused Alaska to delay their Mexico city flight from LAX and bump passenger baggage to be able to take me and my equipment, but that’s a different story.

Tony came on the set, looked at the TV and said “that’s too small, can’t we find a bigger one?” We were shooting nights and it was currently around midnight. No Best Buys in Cuernavaca plus TVs used in films are special because of the 24fps film speed,

As it turned out the Bar in the Hotel we were staying at had a big screen RP TV up on the wall behind the Bar that I thought might work. I mentioned (this is why you never volunteer) to Tony about the TV in the bar. 5 min later me, the Mexican Set Dresser and her crew were in a truck on the way to the hotel.

When we arrived there was no one on duty and the Bar was closed but you could walk into it. It was now past midnight! We looked at each other and said sure why not! So we “borrowed” (Stole) the TV which took 3 people to lift down and rolled it out of the hotel on a dolly!

Tony’s comment was well! That’s more like it! (Or something like that).

You can see the result if you watch the film. This was average for a Tony Scott film and I worked on a number of them.

[Edited on 11-8-2022 by RFClark]

[Edited on 11-8-2022 by RFClark]

pacificobob - 11-7-2022 at 10:19 PM

I did immersion study in Guatemala in the 70s, living with a family.
I found it very valuable. The school closed due to revolutionary activity in the area or i would have done it longer.

pauldavidmena - 11-8-2022 at 09:26 AM

The Spanish Around YouTube channel provides free videos of various length, most of them in the form of asking simple questions like "what is your favorite holiday?" to passers-by in Mexico City. It's a good way to immerse oneself in the sound of conversational Spanish. Subtitles are available in both Spanish and English. Also: Juan Coronado, the driving force behind Spanish Around, offers weekly one-hour "intercambio" sessions via Zoom. I did this for over a year and really benefited from it. The only thing better is actually being there.

pauldavidmena - 11-8-2022 at 09:36 AM

Quote: Originally posted by lencho

Note: if you're going with an English-speaking companion, that has the potential to really trash an immersion experience: You need to completely avoid English during the lapse, if possible.

This is an interesting observation. My wife doesn't speak Spanish (she knows a few food words), so our trips to Mexico consist of me functioning as bumbling translator at a restaurant, store, etc. In these cases, waiters, vendors, etc., often note my wife's discomfort with Spanish and switch to English, thus ending the immersion experience.

Naturally this would work out much better if both of us were committed to learning Spanish, but that's not our current reality.

surabi - 11-8-2022 at 09:50 AM

Yes, if you spend your time on a Mexican holiday in touristy places, then a lot of the employees you deal with speak English. If your time in Mexico involves non-tourist activity, like having a house built and interacting with construction workers, it is less likely that they will speak English.

However there are also Mexicans who understand quite a bit of English, but purposely don't let that be known. They like to know what foreigners say when they think the Mexicans don't understand. :-)

[Edited on 11-8-2022 by surabi]

eguillermo - 11-8-2022 at 09:56 AM

Sounds like Spain is convenient for you, so as someone said, go for it!

Many years back I did a month or so of semi-immersion in Guatemala, which at the time was a really cheap way to go. You get a hostel-like room and a bespoke tutor for 4-5 hours a day. I've heard Ecuador has similarly cheap offerings, and Costa Rica similar but more expensive setups.

pacificobob - 11-8-2022 at 04:58 PM

When one person in the group is even slightly more skilled with the local language the job of communication falls completely on the better speaker. Thusly the person who has greater need of practice becomes a passive observer.

Cancamo - 12-16-2022 at 10:02 AM

Have attended immersion schools in Guatemala twice in 80s and 90s, then again in Ecuador later. Highly recommended, as very little or nothing is spoken of student's native language when studying as designed, (stay with a family, avoid falling back on native language). Depending on school, can be very challenging. Some places are known for more of a casual, part instruction, part tour guide approach.

When you start dreaming in Spanish, you know you are progressing.

I would say one month would be minimum, (diplomats at my school were there six months), if time permits.

With the beautiful form of Castilian spoken in those countries, I view returning to school as required maintenance after being immersed in Choyero.

Cancamo - 12-16-2022 at 10:56 AM

"Centro Lingustico Maya", Antigua, Guatemala.

This was several years ago, but some state departments sent their people there. It was a serious school with dedicated instructors giving one on one instruction 4/6/& 8 hours a day. Very challenging at times, but worth the effort.

Antigua has been the capital of Spanish immersion for over 50 years, offering a big variety of education from the casual to serious.

More schools are found in Guatemala at villages on Lake Atitlan, Quetzaltenango and other towns, but Antigua has the best selection. All schools are dirt cheap, especially for the package including room and board.

4x4abc - 12-16-2022 at 12:16 PM

Quote: Originally posted by RFClark

Well, If you are single the best language immersion is to find a “living dictionary”! Watching Spanish language news is good too. I’m your age and still learning new words. If too many speak English answer in Spanish. That’s a win - win!

I tried that. Now her English is good and my Spanish is still bad

surabi - 12-16-2022 at 01:57 PM

A friend of mine did the Antigua immersion classes, not sure which school. She is originally French, but lived in the US for 40 years. Her French accent is so
heavy that although she is totally fluent in English, I often have to ask her to repeat what she said. She's one of those people who doesn't have an "ear" for language- she can't hear the difference between how other people are pronouncing something and how she does.

So her Spanish was almost impossible to decipher- it was a mix of French words, English words, and Spanish words, all in a heavy French accent. The first day of her immersion class, when they were asked to converse so the instructor could get an idea of what levels the students were at, the instructor told her, "I don't know what language you think you're speaking, but you need to forget all the Spanish you think you know and start from square one."

My friend is aware of her "bad ear" and doesn't take herself very seriously, so she wasn't offended and found it quite funny.

Unfortunately, her Spanish hasn't improved significantly.

pacificobob - 12-16-2022 at 05:50 PM

There is significant evidence that short term immersion ,1-2 weeks, doesn't result in much retention.
I know lots of gringos who haven't learned the simple vowel sounds... Without being able to pronounce those, progress will not be happening.

[Edited on 12-17-2022 by pacificobob]

surabi - 12-16-2022 at 06:23 PM

Yes, I know gringoes who have lived in Mexico for years and still pronounce the first "a" in "casa", like the first "a" in "capital". It's not like they can't make the correct sound, like some of us can't roll an "r", and they continue to pronouce it incorrectly even after being corrected and having it explained that an "a" in Spanish is always pronounced the same way, no matter where in a word it appears. They seemingly simply don't care.

Immersion works well for young children, who usually pick up new languages quite quickly. And I can see it working well for those adults who already have some Spanish fluency and want to improve. But one or two weeks of it for those who speak no Spanish doesn't seem like it would help anymore than just hanging out around Spanish speakers to get an ear for the language, instead of hanging with other gringoes.

[Edited on 12-17-2022 by surabi]

AKgringo - 12-16-2022 at 07:26 PM

When you travel with a dog, it is hard to get much useful feedback. It is kind of cute when she tries to roll her "r"s, sort of an arrrf comes out.

pacificobob - 12-18-2022 at 08:32 AM

Quote: Originally posted by surabi

Yes, I know gringoes who have lived in Mexico for years and still pronounce the first "a" in "casa", like the first "a" in "capital". It's not like they can't make the correct sound, like some of us can't roll an "r", and they continue to pronouce it incorrectly even after being corrected and having it explained that an "a" in Spanish is always pronounced the same way, no matter where in a word it appears. They seemingly simply don't care.

Immersion works well for young children, who usually pick up new languages quite quickly. And I can see it working well for those adults who already have some Spanish fluency and want to improve. But one or two weeks of it for those who speak no Spanish doesn't seem like it would help anymore than just hanging out around Spanish speakers to get an ear for the language, instead of hanging with other gringoes.

[Edited on 12-17-2022 by surabi]

I know folks who have been here for years who make me twitch in genuine pain with words such as tack-o and cab-o.

AKgringo - 12-18-2022 at 08:58 AM

Quote: Originally posted by pacificobob

I know folks who have been here for years who make me twitch in genuine pain with words such as tack-o and cab-o.

Bob, I know you have spent time in Alaska, so I imagine there is some twitching going on when the town of Valdez is pronounced Valdeez!

For what it is worth, the Spanish explorer that the area was named for spelled his last name with an "s" (Valdes).

pacificobob - 12-18-2022 at 11:02 AM

Quote: Originally posted by AKgringo

Quote: Originally posted by pacificobob

I know folks who have been here for years who make me twitch in genuine pain with words such as tack-o and cab-o.

Yup, I used to work for valdez airlines (during the pipeline) we had a lot of fun with the pronunciations.

surabi - 12-18-2022 at 12:18 PM

Cortes Island in British Columbia spelled it right.