BajaNomad

1860s Baja California Map Chat

David K - 1-17-2023 at 04:29 PM



I am calling it the '1860s' map (for now), as it uses leagues (something that was being phased out, starting in the late 1850s) , and is after the Gadson Purchase of 1853.

Full size image: 1860s Baja California Map (Large)

[Edited on 1-17-2023 by David K]

The map was on Facebook... no other data provided

David K - 1-17-2023 at 04:33 PM

I chatted with the person who posted it on Facebook, and he had no additional details for me to include here. It was interesting, it was historic, and it deserves being seen more, 150 years later.

David K - 1-17-2023 at 05:07 PM

This looks to be where the map was first posted and shared around, from yesterday (Jan. 16, 2023): https://www.facebook.com/ahensenadabc

It has nothing to do with the post, about Baja California statehood, and it says nothing about the map.

Edit: I just messaged the host of that page asking for more details on the map he posted yesterday.

[Edited on 1-18-2023 by David K]

bajaric - 1-17-2023 at 06:23 PM

Hmmmm. 1860's? That would sort of make sense, because it does not show Real del Castillo, a town that became the capital of the northern territory of Baja in 1872. So that makes it pre-1872. No self-respecting cartographer would leave out the capital.

On the other hand, there are a couple of odd things. For one it uses the modern spelling of Tijuana. In the 1860's it was Rancho Tia Juana, a tiny ranch hardly even worth noting on a map. It was not until 1874 that a customs house was established at Rancho Tia Juana to levy customs duties on miners that were going to Real del Castillo and it became a "place". Not sure when it became known as Tijuana, but it was after then.

Also, shows a trail from Mission Santa Maria to San Felipe. As far as I know there was no such trail, ever. ?? Even if it meant to show the trail from Puertecitos to Gonzaga I do not think such a trail existed in the 1880s, at least one that was in general use. That trip was considered a life-threatening journey until after 1900, and seldom attempted by land. Back then, the few travelers to the Calamjue / Gonzaga coastline would make the trip on a steamship or sailing vessel or from the west off the old mission trail, not from San Felipe.

And what was "Santa Isabel"? south of San Felipe. The lost mission?

Bit of a mystery. Perhaps a map drawn later to show early Baja? These are my thoughts.

mtgoat666 - 1-17-2023 at 07:35 PM

Quote: Originally posted by David K  
I chatted with the person who posted it on Facebook, and he had no additional details for me to include here. It was interesting, it was historic, and it deserves being seen more, 150 years later.


Quote: Originally posted by David K  
This looks to be where the map was first posted and shared around, from yesterday (Jan. 16, 2023): https://www.facebook.com/ahensenadabc

It has nothing to do with the post, about Baja California statehood, and it says nothing about the map.

Edit: I just messaged the host of that page asking for more details on the map he posted yesterday.

[Edited on 1-18-2023 by David K]


The fb post you linked indicates the map came from La Mapoteca Manuel Orozco y Berra de Tacubaya. Googling this,place, it seems kind of cool. I am surprised a map guy like you has not visited the mapoteca. Flights to DF are cheap, DK, go visit the mapoteca and come back with some baja history.

Not sure you method of dating (based on “leguas”) is sound.

[Edited on 1-18-2023 by mtgoat666]

[Edited on 1-18-2023 by mtgoat666]

David K - 1-17-2023 at 07:41 PM

I got a reply from the owner of that page.
Will post the English translation soon.
*See below...

[Edited on 1-18-2023 by David K]

From the Facebook group host, about that map:

David K - 1-17-2023 at 09:58 PM

Hola David. El mapa pertenece a la Mapoteca Orozco y Berra. Ellos tienen en línea una buena colección de mapas. En el caso de éste, lo publicaron sin fecha pero yo creo que es anterior a 1875


Hi David. The map belongs to the Mapoteca Orozco y Berra. They have a good collection of maps online. In the case of this one, they published it without a date but I think it is before 1875

>>> So, I am still okay with calling it an 1860s map! ;)

David K - 1-17-2023 at 10:03 PM

Quote: Originally posted by bajaric  
Hmmmm. 1860's? That would sort of make sense, because it does not show Real del Castillo, a town that became the capital of the northern territory of Baja in 1872. So that makes it pre-1872. No self-respecting cartographer would leave out the capital.

On the other hand, there are a couple of odd things. For one it uses the modern spelling of Tijuana. In the 1860's it was Rancho Tia Juana, a tiny ranch hardly even worth noting on a map. It was not until 1874 that a customs house was established at Rancho Tia Juana to levy customs duties on miners that were going to Real del Castillo and it became a "place". Not sure when it became known as Tijuana, but it was after then.

Also, shows a trail from Mission Santa Maria to San Felipe. As far as I know there was no such trail, ever. ?? Even if it meant to show the trail from Puertecitos to Gonzaga I do not think such a trail existed in the 1880s, at least one that was in general use. That trip was considered a life-threatening journey until after 1900, and seldom attempted by land. Back then, the few travelers to the Calamjue / Gonzaga coastline would make the trip on a steamship or sailing vessel or from the west off the old mission trail, not from San Felipe.

And what was "Santa Isabel"? south of San Felipe. The lost mission?

Bit of a mystery. Perhaps a map drawn later to show early Baja? These are my thoughts.


Often maps included rumors or hear-say to dress it up.
Santa Isabel was the water source included on the Jesuit maps. Today a sierra has its name. The water source may have been Agua del Mezquitito (just south of Okie Landing).
I did find the Tijuana part very out-of-place!

mtgoat666 - 1-18-2023 at 09:29 AM


The Mapoteca has a FB https://www.facebook.com/mmoyb.siap.gob.mx

I get a 403 forbidden result from the mapoteca website when trying to look at https://mapoteca.siap.gob.mx/

perhaps the website blocks viewers (IP addresses) from outside of mexico?

BajaTed - 1-18-2023 at 09:45 AM

As on all of the old maps of that show the border, I have always wondered why the Colorado River has the border transecting the river with a north/south deviation?

mtgoat666 - 1-18-2023 at 09:56 AM

Quote: Originally posted by BajaTed  
As on all of the old maps of that show the border, I have always wondered why the Colorado River has the border transecting the river with a north/south deviation?


because CA/Mex border was established when usa acquired CA about 1848 following war.
the AZ/Mex border came out of the Gadsen purchase about 1854.

David K - 1-18-2023 at 10:14 AM

Very good answer, goat!

4x4abc asked about Santa Isabel on the map...

David K - 1-18-2023 at 11:10 AM

The name, Santa Isabel, was given to a water source discovered by Padre Consag, in 1746 (during his sea expedition along the coast, to the Colorado River).



Many names we use today were created by Padre Consag, during his 1746 expedition. This map was published the following year.
Aguge is a water source for ships in need, to come ashore for. In the 1700s, what looks like the small letter f (in the middle of a word) was common for the sound of s.

These names and features were repeated on the well-known Jesuit map, published in 1757 (but shows missions as they were ten years earlier).

1757 Jesuit Map

When looking for a possible lost mission location, beyond Santa María, this may have been the source of the name. Today, the low mountain range in the area along the gulf has the name Santa Isabel, and on the AAA map, a point near El Huerfanito.



2010 Santa Isabel AAA .jpg - 327kB

The area between El Mármol and Matomí has been the most popular region to search of the Lost Mission of Santa Isabel.

mtgoat666 - 1-18-2023 at 12:40 PM

Quote: Originally posted by David K  
The name, Santa Isabel, was given to a water source discovered by Padre Consag, in 1746 (during his sea expedition along the coast, to the Colorado River).


DK:
a clarification....
The Padre did not "discover" the water source. Surely the indigenous peoples had discovered it, and I suspect the indigenous peoples had a name for that water source location. The Padre just named it for his own purposes.

No geographic features in north america were "discovered" by colonists. The colonists just appropriated and named things already known and often named by the original peoples.

David K - 1-18-2023 at 01:20 PM

You don't think we all know that?
Yes, a Native may have (likely have) showed the padre the spring. Let me read Consag's diary and see if there is more to learn... stay tuned.

"Discovered" (in this case) by European explorers, who had a written language that allowed anyone in the future to identify a location by.
Do you live in San Diego or a name used by the Kumeyaay... a name lost to time?

A common practice for naming locations was to use the saint for that day of discovery.

mtgoat666 - 1-18-2023 at 02:30 PM

Quote: Originally posted by David K  
You don't think we all know that?
Yes, a Native may have (likely have) showed the padre the spring. Let me read Consag's diary and see if there is more to learn... stay tuned.

"Discovered" (in this case) by European explorers, who had a written language that allowed anyone in the future to identify a location by.
Do you live in San Diego or a name used by the Kumeyaay... a name lost to time?

A common practice for naming locations was to use the saint for that day of discovery.


Just seems silly to say that Columbus "discovered" the new world. People and large/advanced civilizations had been living in the new world thousands of years before Columbus stumbled onto the scene.
Don't buy into the euro-centric view of history!


David K - 1-18-2023 at 04:07 PM

Again, we know that.
European discovery is what was mentioned, not human discovery. Only European discoveries here have names and dates. Before you counter that, yes, there are Chinese monks who told of a far away land that very well could have been Baja California.
Can we get back to discussing this map's contents?

David K - 1-18-2023 at 04:45 PM

I did not see a mention of Santa Isabel in Padre Consag's diary. The part from San Luis Gonzaga to San Fermin (just north of Puertecitos) is on pages 71-74: https://archive.org/details/lifeworksofrever00kons/

David K - 1-20-2023 at 12:25 PM

Another weird thing on the 1860s map is the showing of a sizable town called Santiago, just northwest of Mulegé. It is on the coast, or close... about where today's San Bruno is. If it was inland, I would guess it to be a mis labeled Boca de Magdalena or San José de Magdalena.

Just examined all the maps from the 1800s at www.vivabaja.com/maps and found no place called Santiago in that area.

4x4abc - 1-20-2023 at 01:29 PM

add Santa Ana north of San Borja instead of south and you know it is questionable map
as I said before - Gulick had the first accurate maps of Baja

4x4abc - 1-20-2023 at 01:36 PM

San Lucas (cove) was renamed by Boleo from Rancho San Pedro
San Bruno used to be Rancho Santa Isabel

David K - 1-20-2023 at 02:06 PM

Quote: Originally posted by 4x4abc  
add Santa Ana north of San Borja instead of south and you know it is questionable map
as I said before - Gulick had the first accurate maps of Baja


As is so often the case, the potential Spanish names is limited, so the same name is used for multiple locations. There is more than one Santa Ana, and the one on the 1860's map shows up on the 1884 and 1886 maps, between Yubay and Calamajué: Santa Ana in 1884

The 1919 Academy of Sciences map shows a Llano de Santa Ana in that area:
1919 Map

In 1918 (published in 1925), David Goldbaum has a Llanos de Santana near Yubay: David Goldbaum Map

Of course, this all may have been born from an error on the 1860's map??? :lol:

Lance S. - 1-21-2023 at 10:44 AM

Could the Santa Ana on the map be Aguajito de Higueras? It would appear so based on the 1884 map.
Where exactly is Aguajito de Higueras?



[Edited on 1-21-2023 by Lance S.]

David K - 1-21-2023 at 03:25 PM

Quote: Originally posted by Lance S.  
Could the Santa Ana on the map be Aguajito de Higueras? It would appear so based on the 1884 map.
Where exactly is Aguajito de Higueras?



[Edited on 1-21-2023 by Lance S.]


Unless this is a smaller, nearby spring, see Agua de Higuera or Agua de la Higuera, is against the mountain, east from El Crucero, just of El Camino Real, between Tinaja de Yubay and Calamajué mission site.

See it on the 1954 Howard Gulick ECR map and the 1977 Harry Crosby map, at www.vivabaja.com/maps as well as on CaminoRealBaja.com map, with a special notation. Maybe they mention this little one, too? Really excellent ECR work by Kevin and his lady.

Lance S. - 1-21-2023 at 06:31 PM

There is a Canyon Aguajito Higueras ,29°16'04"N 114°06'52"W . Don't know if it is the same place.

[Edited on 1-22-2023 by Lance S.]

David K - 1-21-2023 at 07:39 PM

I am not on my desktop, so can't tell. Is it straight east of El Crucero? That is where the road from Calamajué meets Hwy. 1, at the big curve, direction change.
Harald may see this and confirm.

4x4abc - 1-21-2023 at 10:51 PM

2 competing locations
29°16'38.06"N, 114° 6'33.71"W according to Kevin - Agua de Higuera
28°57'43.53"N, 113°47'31.79"W according to INEGI - Agua de Higueras

4x4abc - 1-21-2023 at 11:03 PM

the one Kevin calls Agua de Higuera
is not in Cañada Aguajito de Higuera
so, either INEGI named the wrong canyon or Kevin named the wrong spring Agua de Higuera

the one INEGI calls Agua de Higueras (Agua de Higuera on older maps) is in Arroyo Agua de Higuera and close to Cerros Agua de Higuera

David K - 1-22-2023 at 08:40 AM

When I get home, I will see where your waypoints are.

The spring was named in the 1760s, or soon after. The El Camino Real was created past it in 1766, and as noted earlier by goat, it may have used a Native path. The Natives of the time were the ones that showed the Jesuits the spring, no doubt.

Lance S. - 1-22-2023 at 12:08 PM

Thank you, thats great. That first one is quite far up the canyon.

[Edited on 1-22-2023 by Lance S.]

Lance S. - 1-22-2023 at 12:49 PM

Quote: Originally posted by David K  
When I get home, I will see where your waypoints are.

The spring was named in the 1760s, or soon after. The El Camino Real was created past it in 1766, and as noted earlier by goat, it may have used a Native path. The Natives of the time were the ones that showed the Jesuits the spring, no doubt.


The paths of least resistance between water holes. The Jesuits were following the highways.

[Edited on 1-22-2023 by Lance S.]

David K - 1-23-2023 at 06:56 AM

Quote: Originally posted by 4x4abc  
the one Kevin calls Agua de Higuera
is not in Cañada Aguajito de Higuera
so, either INEGI named the wrong canyon or Kevin named the wrong spring Agua de Higuera

the one INEGI calls Agua de Higueras (Agua de Higuera on older maps) is in Arroyo Agua de Higuera and close to Cerros Agua de Higuera


Harald, the second waypoint you posted has northing to do with the El Camino Real spring in discussion, it is a ranch on the road to Mission San Borja, by the stinky sulfur spring. You know that the same name is used for multiple locations, in Mexico.

Examine the 1954 El Camino Real map made by Howard Gulick and you will see both places names Agua de Higuera (nothwest of Yubay and along the San Borja road):



On Harry Crosby's 1977 El Camino Real map, he has the one spring location that is in discussion (northwest of Yubay):


----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Now, the best El Camino Real map is from the couple who have been ground-proofing the route from Loreto to El Rosario, for the past 22 years. It is their waypoints along it, on Google Earth. www.caminorealbaja.com

Here is what they say about Agua de Higuera:

AguadeHigueraH2O

Agua de Higuera was a known water source along the ECR. Visitors will see a small reed filled pool still containing plenty of water. It does make for a long side trip and if travelers along the trail were not thirsty before, they most likely were by the time they reached this place.




A short distance south is another spring, here is what they said about it:

AguajitoH2O

Aguajito is a recent name given by a local rancher and his family to this waterhole. He does not know of an older name associated with it, and we have not read about its existence in any historical record that we have come across. The rancher’s belief is that the sidewalls are of an old construction and the dam across it, built by his family, replaced a much older structure. Certainly, the size and flow indicate to us that this was likely an important water source for ECR travelers and that the presence of the cairn at waypoint H183*cairn may support this idea.





Screenshot of CaminoRealBaja map showing Agua de Higuera location in relation to the El Camino Real waypoinst and Hwy. 1 around El Crucero, left lower area...

I got the GPS for Agua de Higuera, here: 29° 16.663'N, 114° 6.528'W



You will see two waypoint flags for the side trail to Agua de Higuera from ECR.

Lance S. - 1-23-2023 at 12:08 PM

Fantastic! So maybe Aguajito, the second water source, was Santa Ana. It looks more convenient than Agua Higuera.

David K - 1-23-2023 at 05:33 PM

Quote: Originally posted by Lance S.  
Fantastic! So maybe Aguajito, the second water source, was Santa Ana. It looks more convenient than Agua Higuera.


Cool idea, about a Santa Ana ranch... Howard Gulick sure combed the area well, in the 50's and 60's, and never reported it. He was guided to these El Camino Real springs by Arturo Grosso and Dick Daggett, who both had mine claims and knew the old trail.

Surprised Harald hasn't popped back here, yet? He relies a lot on the government maps, even though they so frequently put the wrong names down or switch names with their neighbor. So, I am cautious about trusting them 100%. They switched the name of Arroyo El Volcán with one nearby (Zamorra), as well as switching Bahía San Luis Gonzaga with Ensenada de San Francisquito (the bigger bay, south of Alfonsina's), so making errors in this part of Mexico is a habit with INEGI. They are great for the topgraphic map contour lines, however!

Lance S. - 1-23-2023 at 08:03 PM

Possibly not even a ranch in the 1800's, just the name of the aguaje.


Edit: the legend on the 1884 map does indicate that Santa Ana was a Rancho.

[Edited on 1-24-2023 by Lance S.]

4x4abc - 1-23-2023 at 09:28 PM

well, to contemplate what is what we would need to know from Kevin who told him that 29.277238°, -114.109364° is Agua de Higuera

so, 2 springs, not very far from each other, are competing for the same name
I am voting for 29.258958°, -114.110674°
because it is closer to ECR and easier to reach
also - the fact that the ranchers are calling it "Aguajito" makes it candidate #1 for the original Jesuit spring. The name is reflected in Cañada Aguajito de Higuera.
however, David would see it as a disqualifying reason, because the name is found on the INEGI maps
but I have great trust in map making institutions
they are the most accurate part of government

at least there is a difference in names for the 2 Higueras that are far apart, but both on the ECR
Agua de Higuera is here: 28.962092°, -113.792164°
Aguajito de Higuera is either 29.277238°, -114.109364° or here: 29.258958°, -114.110674°


[Edited on 1-24-2023 by 4x4abc]

David K - 1-24-2023 at 01:57 PM

I don't automatically discount INEGI, I just say not to be 100% when they have a history of clear errors in naming places. The majority of their work seems very good.

The southern Higuera, is the stinky sulfur spring and is not on ECR, which turns to the northwest a litle south of it. Of course the other two are not on the ECR either, but off on side trails.


Lance S. - 7-26-2023 at 10:33 PM

I think the spot labeled agua soda on golbaum is Las Palmas.





If so then the trail actually runs over the Asamblea plateau rather than around it.

by

Harald, you mentioned a trail coming out of Arroyo Las Palmas in another thread. Is there a trail between Las Palmas and Agua de Higuera?

Lance S. - 7-26-2023 at 10:42 PM

Las Palmas is a water source halfway between Agua de Higuera and Calamajue so it makes a lot of sense for the trail to go over the plateau.


4x4abc - 7-27-2023 at 11:06 AM

Quote: Originally posted by mtgoat666  
Quote: Originally posted by BajaTed  
As on all of the old maps of that show the border, I have always wondered why the Colorado River has the border transecting the river with a north/south deviation?


because CA/Mex border was established when usa acquired CA about 1848 following war.
the AZ/Mex border came out of the Gadsen purchase about 1854.


I love "acquired"

translated to today - Russia started a war against the Ukraine because they want it (or most of it). So, let's say, Russia overwhelms the Ukraine and wins the war. Then they have a meeting and Russia pays xyz billion to the Ukraine for the "purchase" of the land they wanted. Meaning for the next 500 years they can teach in school how peaceful they are. And when they needed a few million more acres they "bought" them.

4x4abc - 7-27-2023 at 11:18 AM

Quote: Originally posted by Lance S.  
Las Palmas is a water source halfway between Agua de Higuera and Calamajue so it makes a lot of sense for the trail to go over the plateau.


well, could be - but most likely not

it seems like Camino Real would run through water sources whenever possible
however, I know a good number of water sources that are close to the trail (within a few miles) but not on the trail.

El Rosarito comes to mind, 27°39'54.28"N, 112°54'24.03"W - about a league away from Camino Real


4x4abc - 7-27-2023 at 11:24 AM

I think Aguajitos de Higueras is here 112°54'24.03"W, 114° 6'38.43"W - about half a league off the main trail

theother spring mentioned here 29°20'29.50"N, 114° 6'46.38"W is a strong water source - but almost 2 leagues away from the trail

mtgoat666 - 7-27-2023 at 11:57 AM

Quote: Originally posted by 4x4abc  
I think Aguajitos de Higueras is here 112°54'24.03"W, 114° 6'38.43"W - about half a league off the main trail

theother spring mentioned here 29°20'29.50"N, 114° 6'46.38"W is a strong water source - but almost 2 leagues away from the trail


Why y’all using league units?

David K - 7-27-2023 at 01:27 PM

League was the unit of distance measurement in the Spanish California era. While not exact, academics say a league is 2.6 miles. In my readings, I find leagues to range between 2 & 3 miles.
In short it is the distance traveled in an hour on a horse or mule.

Lance S. - 7-27-2023 at 05:06 PM

Quote: Originally posted by 4x4abc  


it seems like Camino Real would run through water sources whenever possible



Yeah that's kinda what I was getting at. If the upper location ( 29° 16.663'N, 114° 6.528'W ) truly is Agua de Higuera then the Camino Real may have actually ran across the plateau to Las Palmas then on to Calamajue. It's perfect.
As you know the Camino Real in this stretch was simply a use trail rather than a constructed trail. There was some guess work involved in figuring out the route. What if they got this stretch wrong? They may not have even known Las Palmas was there.
There must be something in the primary literature that points to the upper location. Crespi? Serra?

[Edited on 7-28-2023 by Lance S.]

Lance S. - 7-27-2023 at 05:17 PM

Should clarify, the Asamblea plateau is that large bench that juts out from the western side of the Sierra Asamblea. Not the actual top of the Sierra.

[Edited on 7-28-2023 by Lance S.]

Lance S. - 7-27-2023 at 06:04 PM

When skirting the base of the plateau, as the Camino Real does, is there water between Aqua de Higuera and Calamajue? It's only about 11miles.

Maybe Goldbaum just shows a different route.


[Edited on 7-28-2023 by Lance S.]

David K - 7-27-2023 at 08:24 PM

Quote: Originally posted by lencho  
Quote: Originally posted by David K  
In short it is the distance traveled in an hour on a horse or mule.

Pretty slow horse or mule. Where'd you get that information?


The padres and soldiers rode horses (by order of the King) while the dozens of neophytes and others that may have joined the travels, walked (not enough horses or mules or the Natives feared them?

If you don't trust my info, please ask a live Baja mule riding historian. Baja Nomad has a few! Baja Bucko, Mula, Amy M, all rugged and intelligent ladies! I will happily modify my post.

David K - 7-27-2023 at 08:30 PM

Quote: Originally posted by Lance S.  
When skirting the base of the plateau, as the Camino Real does, is there water between Aqua de Higuera and Calamajue? It's only about 11miles.

Maybe Goldbaum just shows a different route.


[Edited on 7-28-2023 by Lance S.]


You really can trust the ground proofing done by www.caminorealbaja.com they have investigated the water sources, almost all of them are not on the trail, but instead are off on side trails. Their researched routes are shown on the 2021 Benchmark Atlas as well as on Google Earth link in their website.

David K - 7-27-2023 at 10:27 PM

Quote: Originally posted by lencho  
Quote: Originally posted by David K  
If you don't trust my info,

My personal experience (which I do trust) in parts of rural Mexico where "legua" is still in use as a measure of distance, is as defined here..


Exactly right, as I said, the Spaniards traveled with the mission's neophytes and any other Natives that joined them. The King ordered his soldiers and the padres to ride horseback in potentially hostel regions to have the advantage of speed. If any Padre or soldier was hit by an arrow the investment in any expedition would be lost. They stayed with those that could only or chose to walk, the only means of travel for eons of time.
Sorry I wasn't more specific before but I appreciate your link. I provided all my resources at the end of the article.

Lance S. - 7-27-2023 at 11:10 PM

Interesting bit from North 1908


"The Spanish league (2.6 miles) is employed more uni- versally than the kilometer.
Distances are universally overestimated through the habit of the natives in reckoning a mule's gait at two leagues to the hour when, as a matter of fact, over the prevailing rocky cam- inos four miles to the hour would be a more correct estimate."

4x4abc - 7-27-2023 at 11:46 PM

Quote: Originally posted by mtgoat666  


Why y’all using league units?


we don't really have much of a choice
the padres gave distances in leagues in their scripts
if a water source is described as "una legua" away from the trail - then I will repeat exactly that
not miles, because there could be a confusion with Spanish miles
not Kilometers, because they did not exist at the time of the Jesuits

there are bout 20 different leguas at the time of the Jesuits
every country had their own version
consensus is that the league used by the Jesuits in Baja measured 4,180 meters - 4.18km about 2.6 US miles (3 Spanish miles)

the distances given by the Jesuits in leguas are amazingly accurate
I have double checked on Google Earth about 2 dozen of them
accurate within a bout a football field

David K - 7-28-2023 at 07:28 AM

Thank you for that information, Harald!!:light:

4x4abc - 7-28-2023 at 08:55 AM

I see a new task for David - give distances between missions in Leguas (Consag recorded those)
could be a new map

what if, just speculating here, the big stones with Jesuit cross are actually distance markers?

https://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legua

David K - 7-28-2023 at 03:58 PM

Lencho, I clarified for you that the horses stayed with the walkers. I never used the word equestrian.
Please, if my math is wrong, correct me.

David K - 7-28-2023 at 04:02 PM

Quote: Originally posted by 4x4abc  
I see a new task for David - give distances between missions in Leguas (Consag recorded those)
could be a new map

what if, just speculating here, the big stones with Jesuit cross are actually distance markers?

https://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legua


Check VivaBaja and see a page with the leagues between places in Baja from the tip to the Frontier missions.
I still can look for more, but I have a few pokers in the fire now that my latest Baja Bound article is finished (my 103rd).

4x4abc - 7-28-2023 at 05:39 PM

Quote: Originally posted by David K  
Quote: Originally posted by 4x4abc  
I see a new task for David - give distances between missions in Leguas (Consag recorded those)
could be a new map

what if, just speculating here, the big stones with Jesuit cross are actually distance markers?

https://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legua


Check VivaBaja and see a page with the leagues between places in Baja from the tip to the Frontier missions.
I still can look for more, but I have a few pokers in the fire now that my latest Baja Bound article is finished (my 103rd).


how about a link to that page - please!

Lance S. - 7-28-2023 at 06:29 PM

I think Lencho and David are both correct. David's statement just needs to come with a disclaimer. I was just looking at Lincks travel times and distances and one league per hour is actually a darned good estimate. These expeditions included several pack animals and a bunch of footmen and so moved more slowly.
At one point Linck and another dude break away from the rest and continue on horseback. They covered much more ground in a day than was typical for the group.
One league per hour is probably a pretty good estimate when reading missionary reports and that passage from North demonstrates the practice of using hours traveled to estimate distance

[Edited on 7-29-2023 by Lance S.]

4x4abc - 7-28-2023 at 09:09 PM

Quote: Originally posted by Lance S.  
I think Lencho and David are both correct. David's statement just needs to come with a disclaimer. I was just looking at Lincks travel times and distances and one league per hour is actually a darned good estimate. These expeditions included several pack animals and a bunch of footmen and so moved more slowly.
At one point Linck and another dude break away from the rest and continue on horseback. They covered much more ground in a day than was typical for the group.
One league per hour is probably a pretty good estimate when reading missionary reports and that passage from North demonstrates the practice of using hours traveled to estimate distance

[Edited on 7-29-2023 by Lance S.]


those humans a couple of hundred years ago were as tough as nails
we have lost the ability to cover rough ground fast like them

and we have lost the ability to see trails where otherwise only animals will see trails

all modern travelers including North can only dream of one league per hour in Baja
only on rare occasions I have been able to do that

I organized a little hike a few years back
following an old road
4.78km (a tad more than a league)
roundtrip was 7 hours and we were beyond exhausted

https://carlosnpainter.smugmug.com/Events/Los-Palmares-hike-...

Attachment: 4x4 rural - pack access - washed out tough - 3 miles.kmz (3kB)
This file has been downloaded 78 times

David K - 7-29-2023 at 02:35 PM

Quote: Originally posted by 4x4abc  
Quote: Originally posted by David K  
Quote: Originally posted by 4x4abc  
I see a new task for David - give distances between missions in Leguas (Consag recorded those)
could be a new map

what if, just speculating here, the big stones with Jesuit cross are actually distance markers?

https://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legua


Check VivaBaja and see a page with the leagues between places in Baja from the tip to the Frontier missions.
I still can look for more, but I have a few pokers in the fire now that my latest Baja Bound article is finished (my 103rd).


how about a link to that page - please!


www.vivabaja.com then click the what's new link and the history section page. Here is the link: https://vivabaja.com/travel-log-on-el-camino-real1792/

[Edited on 7-29-2023 by David K]

Lance S. - 7-29-2023 at 04:10 PM

Quote: Originally posted by lencho  
Quote: Originally posted by Lance S.  
David's statement just needs to come with a disclaimer.

That his pace mules hail from San Ignacio? :lol:


Just gave me a giggle fit.

bajaric - 7-29-2023 at 04:57 PM

North's figure of 4 miles an hour was probably accurate for his method of travel: Riding on horseback with a light load. I think he even had spare horses to spell the others when they got tired.

In 1900 a group of Americans riding burros accompanied by heavily loaded pack animals only averaged about 2 miles an hour, according to information I have read.

[Edited on 7-30-2023 by bajaric]

4x4abc - 7-29-2023 at 07:33 PM

very frustrating read!
gave up after about an hour
distances don't make sense
names used have evaporated
some of the still valid names are used in the wrong place

https://vivabaja.com/travel-log-on-el-camino-real1792/

mtgoat666 - 7-29-2023 at 08:46 PM

The meter was standardized in 1790 by the French. Viva la France!

Here it is 2023 and there are a few cranks exploring baja Mexico and recording travel distances in league units, despite their not even having agreement on how long a league is :lol::lol:




[Edited on 7-30-2023 by mtgoat666]