BajaNomad - cheap soler panels

cheap soler panels

Bruce R Leech - 4-10-2005 at 07:27 AM

I just herd on the news that a semiconductor company has developed a new proses to produce soler panels that will reduce the price by more than 50%.

I will try to git more info and post here.

[Edited on 4-10-2005 by Bruce R Leech]

Tommy A - 4-10-2005 at 03:37 PM

Don't think this pertains to the original question, but good article I thought was interesting.

Thursday, October 2, 2003 Posted: 4:13 PM EDT (2013 GMT)

AMSTERDAM (Reuters) -- A major European chip maker said this week it had discovered new ways to produce solar cells which will generate electricity twenty times cheaper than today's solar panels.

STMicroelectronics, Europe's largest semiconductor maker, said that, by the end of next year, it expected to have made the first stable prototypes of the new cells, which could then be put into production.

Most of today's solar cells, which convert sunlight into electricity, are produced with expensive silicon, the same material used in most semiconductors.

The French-Italian company expects cheaper organic materials such as plastics to bring down the price of producing energy. Over a typical 20-year life span of a solar cell, a single produced watt should cost as little as $0.20, compared with the current $4.

The new solar cells would even be able to compete with electricity generated by burning fossil fuels such as oil and gas, which costs about $0.40 per watt, said Salvo Coffa, who heads ST's research group that is developing the technology.

"This would revolutionize the field of solar energy generation," he said.

ST's trick is to use materials that are less efficient in producing energy from sunlight but which are extremely cheap.

This would revolutionize the field of solar energy generation.
-- ST researcher Salvo Coffa

Coffa said the materials should be able to turn at least 10 percent of the sun's energy into power, compared with some 20 percent for today's expensive silicon-based cells.

"We believe we can demonstrate 10 percent efficiency by the end of 2004," Coffa said.

Following that, ST and others would need to develop production technologies to make solar cells and panels in large quantities to achieve the $0.20 per watt target, he said.

"Our target is fixed at $0.20," said Coffa, who expects no major technological difficulties in going from prototypes to mass-produced commercial products.

Renewable energy is an essential part of research for ST, which says its chip and material expertise can be used to develop future solar cells and fuel cells.

ST said three weeks ago it had found a new way to produce tiny yet extremely efficient fuel cells that could power a mobile phone for 20 days.

Bruce R Leech - 4-10-2005 at 04:50 PM

That sounds Like it could be the one

Bruce R Leech - 4-11-2005 at 10:58 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Pompano
Does anybody know if these or similar solar panels are on the US market yet? I tried a search but came up empty on the .20/watt selection. This sure would revolutionize power supply in Baja!

not yet but it should not be to long

hi tech solar is coming...

Sharksbaja - 4-11-2005 at 11:08 AM

http://www.nanosolar.com/products.htm

comitan - 4-11-2005 at 12:27 PM

Pompano, When you receive the info please share it with us nomads.

Anonymous - 4-11-2005 at 01:19 PM

Hey Roger.... e-mail me. mexrick1@prodigy.net.mx Where's that article you wrote about Sid? I'd like to read it.

wornout - 4-11-2005 at 02:56 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Sharksbaja
http://www.nanosolar.com/products.htm

The overview diagram indicates they are 110v, this will work great during the day.

Bruce R Leech - 4-11-2005 at 03:42 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by wornout

Quote:

Originally posted by Sharksbaja
http://www.nanosolar.com/products.htm

The overview diagram indicates they are 110v, this will work great during the day.

they will store to Battery's 10 12v battery's or 20 6v battery's make 120 v this is the way they wire the larger systems it works allot more efficiently going through the inverter.

wornout - 4-11-2005 at 08:57 PM

Sounds like they would be great for a big system. I run 10 panels and six L16 6v batteries here at the house in San Felipe and the is fine for all we run now that I turn my panels during the day. One problem I would have on the 110v system is I have a 12v SunFrost Fridge, marine radio and various lights I run on 12v. So then I would be converting back to 12v.

One would have to have a large power demand to warrant 20 6v batteries. I hope the technology filters down to a 12v system then I am in.

neilmac - 4-13-2005 at 02:34 PM

re: Nanosolar....

Did they not specify a watt output for that 10'x14' sheet? I didn't see it.... I'd expect about 1400w; if it's similar to conventional silicone panels, which they DID say.

Neil

Anonymous - 4-13-2005 at 04:19 PM

I currently run 16 100-watt Photowatt solar panels, 16 6-Volt Trojan batts, a 4500 watt Trace invertor/charger, C-40 Trace monitor, and generate/store enough power to light the house, run a bedroom A/C, 6 ceiling fans, TV's, radios, Internet, vacuum cleaner, toaster, and...groan...a hair dryer..I drew the line at a SOL fridge..we use propane Crystal Colds.

I could use some new solar technology.

El Jefe - 4-14-2005 at 08:40 AM

Pompamo, ..... a bedroom air conditioner.....ooohhh that sounds nice. I had thought that AC units drew too much juice to be run on a solar system unless it was prohibatively big and expensive. It would sure be nice to sleep in the cool, cool, cool of the evening during the summer. Now you've got me thinking. When we design our system, I will keep an AC in mind for the bedroom. Do you have one of those little ones that sit on the floor with the exhaust hose to the exterior?

comitan - 4-14-2005 at 07:20 PM

The ones you are interested in are called Mini-splits and yes they are effecient, you mount the compressor unit apart from the upper unit.

El Jefe - 4-14-2005 at 07:48 PM

Thanks guys, those are some good ideas to keep my keester cool in August. Now if they would just get that cheap solar sheet thing on the market, Ill be all set.

Bruce R Leech - 4-15-2005 at 11:16 AM

further research tells me that these new panels run at about half the efficiency as the others but will cost about one twentieth of the others that-is about 5% of the cost. sounds to good to be true. that would mean that you would need to use twice the sq. footage of panels but your savings would be about 90 percent.

Does anybody remember ...........

MrBillM - 4-15-2005 at 11:37 AM

At least ten years ago, maybe more, Texas Instruments came out with a planned Solar Electric compound that would have done exactly what this appears to do. It was extremely cheap, but less efficient per square foot than existing technology. One of the plans was to spray it on as a roof coating. After a Huge article in the Los Angeles Times and a few later mentions, the whole thing just disappeared, at least to my knowledge, and I usually look at two or more newspapers everyday when in the U.S.

Since I expect that the Commercial power will be at Percebu within the next two years, I'm not even installing the last (4) KC120s I bought until the day comes that I actually need them. For others, though, it will make for a dramatic change in lifestyle.
I had always been interested in trying to run a window a/c off solar, but the investment was simply too high. Instead, I've relied on a Genset for about five hours nightly during the worst heat and humidity.

El Jefe - 4-15-2005 at 01:25 PM

Bruce, you are right, probably too good to be true. I've been watching the website of a fuel cell developer who claimed some years ago that they would have propane powered fuel cells for residential use by now. The prediction was that the electric grid as we know it would be changed forever. No more power lines would need to be run to new areas, yadda, yadda, yadda. It would have been really cool, but it looks now like the company is taking another track. plugpower.com

I'll believe this solar development when I see it. I think often early r&d results are hyped up to get investors interested.

MrBill, I think you are probably right about using a genset for the AC. That was my original plan. So now the question is, what is the preferred genset, propane or diesel?

[Edited on 4-15-2005 by El Jefe]

Genset

MrBillM - 4-15-2005 at 05:02 PM

The Genset I reserve exclusively for the A/C is a Northern 2700 built for Northern Tools. The genset has an OHC Honda 5.0 hp engine. I've seen the same genset with different names on it at the Solar power shows. It is very dependable so far and very economical. The 5/8 gallon gas tank is good for about 3 hours powering a 6K btu A/C.
I adapted a larger tank to go past the three hours, but I noticed at a Solar show in Pomona the year after I bought mine, the newer units had a larger gas tank. The advantage to using the smaller genset is lower gasoline usage. When I would use my 5K
or 6.5K Honda, I used a lot more gas. A 2700 rated gen easily runs the A/C.
Propane or Diesel would be more economical in run time, but the premium (especially with Diesel) that you pay means it will be years before you break even.

I've used the unit for three seasons now and it still sounds like new. The price including shipping was under $500, but I noticed the unit has gone up to $499.95, although they do put it on sale at times. www.northerntool.com

One last thing. Northern sells the Honda engine for around $225 so, if the gen head outlasted the engine, said engine could be cheaply replaced.

[Edited on 4-16-2005 by MrBillM]

Bruce R Leech - 4-15-2005 at 07:33 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by MrBillM
The Genset I reserve exclusively for the A/C is a Northern 2700 built for Northern Tools. The genset has an OHC Honda 5.0 hp engine. I've seen the same genset with different names on it at the Solar power shows. It is very dependable so far and very economical. The 5/8 gallon gas tank is good for about 3 hours powering a 6K btu A/C.
I adapted a larger tank to go past the three hours, but I noticed at a Solar show in Pomona the year after I bought mine, the newer units had a larger gas tank. The advantage to using the smaller genset is lower gasoline usage. When I would use my 5K
or 6.5K Honda, I used a lot more gas. A 2700 rated gen easily runs the A/C.
Propane or Diesel would be more economical in run time, but the premium (especially with Diesel) that you pay means it will be years before you break even.

I've used the unit for three seasons now and it still sounds like new. The price including shipping was under $500, but I noticed the unit has gone up to $499.95, although they do put it on sale at times. www.northerntool.com

One last thing. Northern sells the Honda engine for around $225 so, if the gen head outlasted the engine, said engine could be cheaply replaced.

[Edited on 4-16-2005 by MrBillM]

that is the cheapest electricity you can make

latitude26n - 4-21-2005 at 02:08 PM

Our favorite BP panels (the most efficient we found for the the desert heat) are "no longer available in the US", which is the refrain we got used to hearing back in November when we began to set up the system for our new place. We had to be on a couple of waiting lists just to get the initial 5 of the "next-best" panels. Dealers kept repeating that "all the good stuff now goes to Europe cause there's just no market in the US".

Did the article that was posted about the new technolgy mentioned in this thread say anywhere that it would be available in the US?

We considered holding out for more info about hydrogen fuel cells (the byproduct of these is H20), but couldn't wait.

Solar in Demand

MrBillM - 4-21-2005 at 05:48 PM

There is a huge demand for Solar Panels at present in Europe, notably Germany, and in Japan.

Both governments have come out with very attractive rebate programs for home and business owners.

I read a bulletin awhile back from Kyocera describing the details of Germany's program and it was impressive. If we had the same incentive in the U.S. there would be 100s of thousands taking advantage of it.

I have a friend in the Solar business who has experienced waits of months for Kyoceras. Awhile back, the distributor in Arizona called him and said they could free up a pallet IF he was there the following a.m. He left that night.

Braulio - 4-23-2005 at 07:22 PM

A lot of the original hype came out of the discovery in the late 70's of plastics that could conduct electricity.

The difference now is that there's a new generation of technology that uses nanotechnology (making and manipulating small things) with new forms of plastics to make new forms of semiconductor-polymer-photovoltaic devices.

The original link/article caught my eye because one of the research managers was from Cal's College of Chemistry -

There's another prof also from Berkeley's C of Chem (Paul Alivisatos) that has formed a company similar to the one linked (Nanosys) to develop/promote/sell solar panels (as well as other nano-related things) - he's a pretty bright guy - I've followed his project in the media but thought that the solar panel part was a couple of years from the marketplace.

I wouldn't necessarily be in a hurry to buy the first one - it's practically a given that there'll be glitches and price reductions later on.

Speaking of price - when semiconductors first came out (and semiconductors are really what we're taliking about here) they cost $5.50 per transistor in the mid fifties. Currently one buck will get you about 2 billion. (that figure came out during some Murphys Law anniversary celebration type deals this past week.)

Thre're sure to be some topes in the road - but maybe the energy future won't be as bleak as some are predicting.

Anyway - if you're interested - check out:

http://www.nanosysinc.com/

solar power catch 22

Sharksbaja - 4-24-2005 at 01:36 PM

The Solar "Catch 22"
The KPMG report explains that it is not technology or financial barriers that are holding PV out of a mass market, but a simple 'demand and supply' vicious circle As long as demand is small, production of solar energy will remain small-scale and expensive, and as long as the production is small-scale and expensive, the price will remain high and the demand small: catch 22."

The KPMG report notes that only two players can break that impasse - government which regulates energy and building, and the industries which own the technology, such as BP Amoco and Shell. The onus now rests with these two groups to break the solar impasse.

If the solar impasse/"catch 22" is not broken, then solar PV will gradually become cost competitive and reach a mass market. But this may take 30 years, whereas KPMG shows that it could be achieved within a few years rather than decades.

It is no secret that cheaper energy has been available for many years but very strange things happen to patents,inventors,inventions, exhibits,shows, speeches, speakers, conferences, news releases etc. etc. etc.

Must be some very powerful adversaries out there. The energy market will (soon)eventually see these new innovations. Nano will be a common indusrtry.

Those interested in cutting edge solar power tech. Here are a couple of good sites:

http://nanotech-marketplace.com/nanotechblog/index.php/a/2005/03/07/lbgnano_solar_cells_giant_step_in_solvin

http://www.konarkatech.com/products/

http://ultraconductors.com/primer.html

Other discoveries abound but lack funding or resource.
A method exists to attach to the grid and the power flows through your house and back out to the grid, sort of piggy back-style but the energy companies will do anything than to let that happen. According to one site, homes can run a generater and reap low cost powerhttp://www.freelectricity.com/

but they have been touting this for quite awhile and have not seen any tangible results.

Quote by el hefe:

"I'll believe this solar development when I see it. I think often early r&d results are hyped up to get investors interested."

You are correct about that...... as I was saying, the follow-through on many energy related projects just fade away or one day the site disappears and so on. Very strange indeed. Makes one very suspicious, doesn't it. Where's the volts?

My interest lies in 'zero-point energy'. This technology which at the moment is hush-hush will let us leap into a new age of technology. This ultra-high tech energy source incorporates extemely efficient super(ultra) conductors and super magnets aligned to spin a generator and lose practically nothing in current generation. It also employs "floating" bearings, of which there are none thus eliminating the friction factor.

Of course there are other amazing technologies emerging dealing with power generation that are very facinating and are probably controlled by mega-corps and/or gov.

Demand in the country could have been given...

Hook - 4-27-2005 at 10:16 AM

....a big boost if Bush's new energy plan he announced yesterday had included something towards solar.

Instead, he favors credits for big business (nuclear, LNG, refiners) that the little guy will continue to be dependent on. The token incentive to the little guy was an incresed rebate for hybrid and clean diesel cars; areas where the demand already can't keep up with the supply, even without a federal rebate.

However, I do like his proposal to turn some closed military bases over to the building of NEW refineries. Our lack of refining capacity in this country is a big part of why our gas/diesel is so expensive.

Emphasizing solar would be such a boon to energy needs in the growth areas of the whole world, the Sun Belts. Anything to encourage production/research to bring the cost down should be promoted. Implementation is so much quicker than the turnaround time on a refinery or a nuke plant, too.

Bruce, your figures on the reduced cost of the plastic solar cell generation don't take into account the companies profit margin, which could be substantial if they are the only game in town.

I almost threw up...

Sharksbaja - 4-27-2005 at 11:52 AM

after seeing Bush schmoozing with those Saudis. :barf:

De ja vu? Did we not learn anything in the seventies? As OPEC figures out how to put the screws to us again we start kissing their fat asses again. All the incentives in the world will never overshadow our already too powerful transportation and energy giants. If a vehicle is/was developed to run 90 mi on a gal of water, do you suppose GM and EXXON would endorse it. I don't think so!

I say help Mexico and Russia upgrade their production while we figure out how to become independent again..

[Edited on 4-27-2005 by Sharksbaja]

Bruce R Leech - 4-27-2005 at 11:56 AM

exactly Sharksbaja

Hook - 4-27-2005 at 01:35 PM

Quote:

I say help Mexico and Russia upgrade their production while we figure out how to become independent again..

[Edited on 4-27-2005 by Sharksbaja]

We did help Mexico upgrade their production.....then they nationalized our assets. But I agree in concept; I 'd rather be dependent on Mexico than the Middle East or Venezuela.

Russia, specifically Putin, is becoming very unpredictable. We had high hopes that their exports to us could be played off the Saudis for increased leverage. But the whole Yukos Oil thing has the Bush Administration feeling untrustworthy of Putin. Putin's latest State of the Union talked of what a disaster the fall of Communism had been for the average Russian and also hinted that the government might not privatize some key industries.

At least the Guvernator sees the beauty of solar. Yeah, it's expensive, but so are nuke plants and refineries.

Mexican Oil

MrBillM - 4-27-2005 at 04:06 PM

I've always read that a problem with our using Mexican Oil is the high sulphur content.
Although I imagine that we could modify our refineries to process it, the lack of refining capacity is at the root of our current problems. That and the fact that China is buying so much oil.
Unfortunately, if we started right this minute to expand refinery capacity, it would take years to implement.

Dave - 4-27-2005 at 09:11 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by MrBillM
I've always read that a problem with our using Mexican Oil is the high sulphur content.
Although I imagine that we could modify our refineries to process it, the lack of refining capacity is at the root of our current problems. That and the fact that China is buying so much oil.
Unfortunately, if we started right this minute to expand refinery capacity, it would take years to implement.

Most of the worlds supply is now high sulphur or "sour" crude, Saudi Arabia included. That's why a Saudi run up wouldn't help us much. We don't have enough refining capacity.

Of course the capable refiners love it. There is a $15-$17 spread. Sour crude sells for around $33-$35 vs $50+ for sweet.