BajaNomad - Pescadero - 2 norteamericanos die in hotel

Goat,

Propane burners generally don’t generate CO. That’s why they power forklifts and ventless heaters with propane. They can deplete the Oxygen in a closed room leading to hypoxia however.

Personally, I have never stayed in a hotel room with an indoor propane water heater.

Propane burners do emit CO, maybe not as much as other fuels. And a malfunctioning burner likely emits more CO than properly tuned burner.

JZ - 6-15-2023 at 01:23 PM

Damn, that is very sad.

surabi - 6-15-2023 at 03:17 PM

Goat,

Propane burners generally don’t generate CO.

They do if they aren't adjusted properly. Been quite a few tourists in various places who have died of carbon monoxide poisoning in hotels and condos with AC, where the windows stay closed.

pauldavidmena - 6-16-2023 at 07:33 AM

Here's an update from the Todos Santos Newsfeed on Facebook:

"Many of you may have read the tragic news about the two Americans, Abby Lutz and John Heathco that lost their precious lives in a hotel room in Pescadero, BCS Mexico. What you may have not heard about are the two first responders that almost lost their lives as well, Fernando Valencia Sotelo and Grisel Valencia Sotelo. The brother and sister team were the attending to Abby and John when they quickly became overcome. They were able to exit the room just in time before Grisel collapsed to the ground. Fernando was able to get himself and Grisel back to their ambulance and administer oxygen to himself and to her. They were then rushed to the hospital by other team members. The hospital in La Paz did what they could but they do not have the proper treatment facilities. Today, since Grisel and Fernando were still feeling very ill and were very concerned about long-term effects, as a team we decided to take them to a private hospital in San Jose del Cabo."

Pescadero

bajarickster - 6-16-2023 at 08:12 AM

i lived in the Colo mts for 35 yrs. we had a natural gas furnace boiler. i had 5 fire detectors and changed batteries religiously on New Yrs. in 2003 the boiler was replaced by the largest plumbing company in Colo. in 2006 on the eve of St Patricks Day, my wife and i went to bed. it was 10 degrees and snowing. at 5am my 2 kittens would not leave me alone. after 15 minutes a got up to check their food. it was full. i was going back to bed, but i decided to go downstairs to the office and look over some info for a speech i had to give that evening. 10 minutes later i got a massive headache and thought i was catching the flu. i tried to walk upstairs but my legs were like rubber and i kept falling. i crawled up and into the bedroom to wake up my wife. no response. i shook and slapped her and finally rolled her on the floor and her eyes opened and i asked how she was. she also had a huge headache. 1 hour passed that neither off us really and then we were out on the deck calling 911. Suddenly my wife started projectile vomiting and fell, breaking her ankle in 3 places. we lived in a very rural area but finally 2 ambulances, 2 fire trucks and 2 police cars showed. the fireman came up the stairs and did CPR on my wife but nada. 2 fireman went into the house and came right back out yelling "Everyone use oxygen masks." i ask why and he said carbon monoxide it 800ppm, the highest he'd ever seen. as they were putting my wife in a body bag. i screamed, she can't be dead, try again. finally she responded and we were both rushed to the hospital for 2 hyperbaric chambers for 3 hrs. then 2 days in the hospital. when we investigated we found that the plumbing had used the wrong gage vent pipe and it rusted thru in 3 yrs. 1 kitten died about 3 months later. we went on disability, sold the house and moved to La Paz with the male cat. we thought lifes too short.

long story, but the 2 who lost their lives probably had a similar experience. without our cats we'd be gone too

and i agree with the comment about Hyatt should of had CO detectors. if they had any type of flammable water heater. just such an unfortunate incident

mtgoat666 - 6-16-2023 at 09:38 AM

Quote: Originally posted by pauldavidmena

Here's an update from the Todos Santos Newsfeed on Facebook:

"Many of you may have read the tragic news about the two Americans, Abby Lutz and John Heathco that lost their precious lives in a hotel room in Pescadero, BCS Mexico. What you may have not heard about are the two first responders that almost lost their lives as well, Fernando Valencia Sotelo and Grisel Valencia Sotelo. The brother and sister team were the attending to Abby and John when they quickly became overcome. They were able to exit the room just in time before Grisel collapsed to the ground. Fernando was able to get himself and Grisel back to their ambulance and administer oxygen to himself and to her. They were then rushed to the hospital by other team members. The hospital in La Paz did what they could but they do not have the proper treatment facilities. Today, since Grisel and Fernando were still feeling very ill and were very concerned about long-term effects, as a team we decided to take them to a private hospital in San Jose del Cabo."

Yikes!
I cant imagine the Hyatt is still open for business after this event. At minimum, the hotel should shut down until problem is mitigated, and entire hotel is checked for other instances of problem.

mtgoat666 - 6-16-2023 at 09:40 AM

Quote: Originally posted by bajarickster

i lived in the Colo mts for 35 yrs. we had a natural gas furnace boiler. i had 5 fire detectors and changed batteries religiously on New Yrs. in 2003 the boiler was replaced by the largest plumbing company in Colo. in 2006 on the eve of St Patricks Day, my wife and i went to bed. it was 10 degrees and snowing. at 5am my 2 kittens would not leave me alone. after 15 minutes a got up to check their food. it was full. i was going back to bed, but i decided to go downstairs to the office and look over some info for a speech i had to give that evening. 10 minutes later i got a massive headache and thought i was catching the flu. i tried to walk upstairs but my legs were like rubber and i kept falling. i crawled up and into the bedroom to wake up my wife. no response. i shook and slapped her and finally rolled her on the floor and her eyes opened and i asked how she was. she also had a huge headache. 1 hour passed that neither off us really and then we were out on the deck calling 911. Suddenly my wife started projectile vomiting and fell, breaking her ankle in 3 places. we lived in a very rural area but finally 2 ambulances, 2 fire trucks and 2 police cars showed. the fireman came up the stairs and did CPR on my wife but nada. 2 fireman went into the house and came right back out yelling "Everyone use oxygen masks." i ask why and he said carbon monoxide it 800ppm, the highest he'd ever seen. as they were putting my wife in a body bag. i screamed, she can't be dead, try again. finally she responded and we were both rushed to the hospital for 2 hyperbaric chambers for 3 hrs. then 2 days in the hospital. when we investigated we found that the plumbing had used the wrong gage vent pipe and it rusted thru in 3 yrs. 1 kitten died about 3 months later. we went on disability, sold the house and moved to La Paz with the male cat. we thought lifes too short.

long story, but the 2 who lost their lives probably had a similar experience. without our cats we'd be gone too

and i agree with the comment about Hyatt should of had CO detectors. if they had any type of flammable water heater. just such an unfortunate incident

Wow! Glad you survived. You said you had detectors, did they not work?

surabi - 6-16-2023 at 10:20 AM

He said he had "fire detectors", not CO detectors, Goat. (I assume he meant smoke detectors)
Totally different thing, of course.

karenintx - 6-16-2023 at 10:33 AM

So sad to read things like this that are so preventable.

We have this next to our propane dryer tank.

https://www.amazon.com/Natural-Detector-Propane-Detectors-De...

surabi - 6-16-2023 at 11:13 AM

So sad to read things like this that are so preventable.

We have this next to our propane dryer tank.

https://www.amazon.com/Natural-Detector-Propane-Detectors-De...

If you think that will alert you to carbon monoxide, you are mistaken. Gas leaks and carbon monoxide are two completely different things. Gas leaks are caused by bad gas fittings, leaking gas hoses, broken gas lines, etc, and are dangerous because they can result in an explosion. Carbon monoxide is produced by improper combustion in the appliance and have nothing to do with gas leaks.

You need a CO detector to alert you to carbon monoxide.

In fact, a CO detector is more important than a gas leak detector because you can usually smell a gas leak. They add that stuff that smells kind of like rotten eggs to propane specifically so you can smell a leak. Whereas carbon monoxide is odorless.

Gas appliances should burn with a blue flame. If the flame is yellow or orange, it isn't adjusted properly and islikely emitting CO.

[Edited on 6-16-2023 by surabi]

[Edited on 6-16-2023 by surabi]

Don Pisto - 6-16-2023 at 12:13 PM

So sad to read things like this that are so preventable.

We have this next to our propane dryer tank.

https://www.amazon.com/Natural-Detector-Propane-Detectors-De...

If you think that will alert you to carbon monoxide, you are mistaken. Gas leaks and carbon monoxide are two completely different things. Gas leaks are dangerous because they can result in an explosion. Carbon monoxide is produced by improper combustion in the appliance and have nothing to do with gas leaks.

You need a CO detector to alert you to carbon monoxide.

In fact, a CO detector is more important than a gas leak detector because you can usually smell a gas leak. They add that stuff that smells kind of like rotten eggs to propane specifically so you can smell a leak. Whereas carbon monoxide is odorless.

Gas appliances should burn with a blue flame. If the flame is yellow or orange, it isn't adjusted properly and islikely emitting CO.

[Edited on 6-16-2023 by surabi]

good stuff, sure wouldn't hurt to have a good combo detector not only in your house but in your luggage when you travel :yes:

SFandH - 6-16-2023 at 12:19 PM

I just read about CO poisoning - nasty stuff. It replaces the oxygen in your blood. It's odorless, colorless, and a bit lighter than air, so it diffuses in a closed area, and you don't know you're breathing it.

There are small portable sensors you can carry when traveling.

surabi - 6-16-2023 at 12:32 PM

My propane hot water heater is outside, so even if it were emitting CO, it wouldn't be a danger. My gas stove wouldn't be a danger either, as my windows (and there are lots) are always open, so there is plenty of ventilation. Where you really have to be concerned is in enclosed spaces. So yes, if travelers are going to stay in hotel rooms, houses or apartments where the windows are closed because the place has AC or heating, carrying a CO detector with you is a good idea.Even if the place says it has CO detectors, you have no idea whether they are working properly.

[Edited on 6-16-2023 by surabi]

karenintx - 6-16-2023 at 01:05 PM

https://www.latimes.com/world-nation/story/2023-06-16/mexica...

So sad to read things like this that are so preventable.

We have this next to our propane dryer tank.

https://www.amazon.com/Natural-Detector-Propane-Detectors-De...

You are absolutely right, I probably should have added that we have CO monitors in our bedroom and in the mudroom. I just was talking about our propane gas monitor.

Safety first has always been our motto! We have flashlights and fire extinguishers stored next to each other in a kitchen cabinet and in our bedroom along with smoke alarms it multiple rooms. All batteries are replace every six-months and fire extinguishers are replaced before expiration dates or if the needle starts to get low.

Hopefully this can be a learning example for all of us to inspect our homes for safety. Condolences to both families for their losses.

surabi - 6-16-2023 at 01:26 PM

Good thing you understand the difference, karen. A lot of people don't. I read a post on an Airbnb forum where a guest was all up in arms because the place he'd rented had a gas line running through a bedroom where his kids were sleeping, saying that because the place had no CO detector, his kids could have died of CO poisoning.

Responders to his post either ignorantly sided with him, as they obviously didn't understand the difference either, and others tried to explain to him that CO detectors have nothing to do with gas leaks, but he just kept doubling down with his ignorance.

Of course, an exposed gas line running through a bedroom is pretty weird, and the host should definitely have a CO detector in the unit if there are gas appliances, but that wasn't what the guest was talking about.

KurtG - 6-16-2023 at 01:28 PM

https://www.latimes.com/world-nation/story/2023-06-16/mexica...

mtgoat666 - 6-16-2023 at 01:45 PM

Quote: Originally posted by KurtG

May not want to stay at a Hyatt until they fix their safety program!

Mexico City — Current and former employees at a luxury hotel in Mexico where two Americans were found dead this week said managers of the resort ignored repeated signs of a possible gas leak and disabled carbon monoxide detectors to stop their alarms from disturbing guests.

Ricardo Carbajal, a former night manager at Rancho Pescadero, a $600-a-night beachfront boutique hotel owned by Hyatt, said carbon monoxide detectors sounded frequently over a period of about three months late last year, likely because of leaks in a system that delivers gas to fire pits on the outdoor patios of each room.

In January, Carbajal said, after repeated complaints from guests about the loud alarms, hotel managers disabled the detectors.

“They knew there were problems with gas leaks,” said Carbajal, who stopped working at the resort in March after a dispute over pay. “Everyone was aware of the alarms and that the detectors were off.”

Two current employees who spoke on condition of anonymity because they feared for their jobs also said that hotel managers ignored complaints about the strong smell of gas from both guests and employees.

“Housekeepers reported gas leaks, security reported gas leaks, maintenance workers reported gas leaks,” said one of the employees. The employee said that a few days before the guests were found dead, a housekeeper cleaning their room fell ill because of suspected gas poisoning, the employee said.

Autopsies suggest the two died of “intoxication by an undetermined substance,” prosecutors in Mexico’s Baja California Sur state told the Associated Press.

Local police initially reported that gas inhalation was suspected as the cause of death.

Hyatt officials previously said they do not believe the deaths were related to problems with the hotel infrastructure or a gas leak. They did not immediately respond to requests for comment regarding disabled carbon monoxide alarms at the resort.

But new accounts from two paramedics who responded to the deaths lend credence to the theory that gas poisoning was likely to blame.

Fernando Valencia Sotelo and Grisel Valencia Sotelo, firefighters who are also siblings, arrived at the hotel late Tuesday after staff discovered the bodies of Heathco and Lutz.

The two firefighters immediately fell ill upon entering the couple’s hotel room, according to a GoFundMe account established to raise money for their medical care. They received treatment at a hospital and were released Friday.

In a Friday interview with “Good Morning America,” Lutz’s stepmother, Racquel Lutz, said the young woman had told her family Monday evening that she and Heathco had spent the previous night in the hospital because they felt sick and thought they had food poisoning. Lutz said they had been given fluids intravenously and were feeling better.

“She texted [her father] Monday night to say goodnight, love you, and then we hadn’t heard from her again,” Racquel Lutz said.

Chad Richeson, Abby Lutz’s uncle — who is acting as a spokesperson for the family — said that Lutz and Heathco spent time at the pool Monday but it was not clear how much time they spent in their room.

The Lutz family was traveling to Mexico on Friday to “to bring Abby home” and was not available for further comment, Richeson said.

Abby Lutz did not mention any unusual or powerful smells to her family, Richeson said. Neither the hotel nor Hyatt has reached out to the Lutzes, he said.

In a statement, her family described Lutz as “a light to everyone around her” who was known for her smile and laugh and for “making everyone feel special.”

“It is our hope that more information will come to light to explain what happened to Abby, and why,” the statement said. “This information will help us gain closure, and may prevent this type of incident from happening in the future. We don’t wish for anyone else to go through this tragedy.”

Outside the hotel Friday, several dozen employees gathered for a protest. They detailed a history of labor disputes with hotel managers and complained that their concerns about safety were not addressed.

“We are indignant that we reported this, and this tragedy still happened,” said one of the employees who spoke on condition of anonymity.

Alexander Coughlin, a real estate agent from San Francisco, stayed at Rancho Pescadero from Friday through Monday. He ate at the hotel’s restaurant, Kahal, on Friday night and was originally seated near a fire feature, which he said ran the length of the restaurant. There were about 30 other people in the restaurant that night, he said, including many of whom sat near the fire.

Within about five minutes of his seating, Coughlin said he was overwhelmed by a strong smell of gas and asked twice to be moved. A waiter agreed with him that the odor was powerful, Coughlin told The Times.

He said the property’s food and beverage director reached out to him by email about his survey rating his stay at the hotel, which included grading his dining experience. He told the director about the smell.

“That was the first thing I mentioned in my email,” Coughlin said. He sent the email Wednesday afternoon but said he hasn’t heard anything more from the resort.

It was the only time he detected a gas smell, said Coughlin, who added that he did not recall seeing Lutz or Heathco on the property.

[Edited on 6-16-2023 by mtgoat666]

surabi - 6-16-2023 at 01:57 PM

What you just posted, Goat, is a perfect example of people being ignorant about the difference between CO and gas leaks. The employee is ignorant. While the hotel management should certainly not have disabled the CO detectors, if they were constantly going off and disturbing guests, it was because there is some appliance in the room or building emitting CO, not because of a gas leak. And a barbeque out on an outdoor patio would not fill the unit with carbon monoxide, even if it wasn't combusting properly.

If guests could smell gas, that has nothing whatsoever to do with CO, which is odorless.

That article is really stupid because it just promotes complete misunderstanding of how carbon monoxide is produced and what CO detectors do. They absolutely would not go off in the case of gas leaks.

mtgoat666 - 6-16-2023 at 02:29 PM

What you just posted, Goat, is a perfect example of people being ignorant about the difference between CO and gas leaks. The employee is ignorant. While the hotel management should certainly not have disabled the CO detectors, if they were constantly going off and disturbing guests, it was because there is some appliance in the room or building emitting CO, not because of a gas leak. And a barbeque out on an outdoor patio would not fill the unit with carbon monoxide, even if it wasn't combusting properly.

If guests could smell gas, that has nothing whatsoever to do with CO, which is odorless.

That article is really stupid because it just promotes complete misunderstanding of how carbon monoxide is produced and what CO detectors do. They absolutely would not go off in the case of gas leaks.

The article is fine, reports what people said or experienced. Details are less important. The key take away is that the hotel had detectors and employees disabled them because they were annoyed with the alarms going off! Failure of the safety and maintenance programs.

surabi - 6-16-2023 at 02:44 PM

It is not "fine" to make ignorant statements. Absolutely the hotel should not be disabling safety equipment, and the employees were responsible in mentioning that and should not have been ignored, but if the guests smelled gas, that has nothing to do with disabled CO detectors.

A gas leak detector will not alert you to carbon monoxide.

A carbon monoxide detector will not alert you to gas leaks.

If people fail to understand that, it is dangerous because they may think a device will warn them when it won't.

[Edited on 6-16-2023 by surabi]

mtgoat666 - 6-16-2023 at 03:15 PM

It is not "fine" to make ignorant statements. Absolutely the hotel should not be disabling safety equipment, and the employees were responsible in mentioning that and should not have been ignored, but if the guests smelled gas, that has nothing to do with disabled CO detectors.

A gas leak detector will not alert you to carbon monoxide.

A carbon monoxide detector will not alert you to gas leaks.

If people fail to understand that, it is dangerous because they may think a device will warn them when it won't.

[Edited on 6-16-2023 by surabi]

If the hotel disabled an detector/alarm system, and then guests died due to substance that would have been detected by the disabled system, then that is murder.

surabi - 6-16-2023 at 03:51 PM

Goat- if it is found that the guests died of carbon monoxide poisoning and the CO detectors were disabled, the hotel is indeed responsible for their deaths. It would be not likely be classified as murder, which carries with it a burden of proof that there was intent to kill. The charge would be willful negligence leading to death. Similar to when a child dies because the caregivers failed to provide the necesities of life. It isn't considered murder, it is negligence leading to death.

I simply object to the spreading of the misinformation that a gas leak that guests and employees had been able to smell has anything to do with CO poisoning or disabled CO detectors. That would be a different issue. If the guests died of propane gas inhalation, which is also possible, that would relate to a gas leak that was detectable by smell or by a gas leak detector.

When a person tries to commit suicide by sticking their head in a gas oven where the gas is turned on but not lit, they will die of propane or natural gas inhalation, not carbon monoxide poisoning. Both can kill you, as the gases take the place of oxygen, but one gas is odorless and the other is not, and they are two different causes of death.

[Edited on 6-16-2023 by surabi]

mtgoat666 - 6-16-2023 at 04:13 PM

I simply object to the spreading of the misinformation that a gas leak that guests and employees had been able to smell has anything to do with CO poisoning or disabled CO detectors.

CO problem may be related to propane leaks. It may be that both problems have their root cause in hotel management that was ignoring problems that they should have been fixing. One defect can cause many failures, many symptoms.

surabi - 6-16-2023 at 04:57 PM

No Goat, CO problems are not related to gas leaks, any more than if your car was leaking gas it would have anything to do with your car's electrical system. Stop doubling down on what you obviously don't understand.

That the hotel has been negligent in its observations of safety standards, and should be charged, fined, and closed until they can prove they maintain safety protocols, and get regular inspections to ensure they don't disable equipment, appears to be obvious.

mtgoat666 - 6-16-2023 at 05:11 PM

No Goat, CO problems are not related to gas leaks, any more than if your car was leaking gas it would have anything to do with your car's electrical system. Stop doubling down on what you obviously don't understand.

Re-read it. They have same root cause, bad hotel management, so are related by root cause. Different chemicals, different sources, but release due to same root cause.

RFClark - 6-16-2023 at 07:32 PM

S & G,

What isn’t being discussed here yet are the construction cost overruns and labor problems during construction. These problems both propane leaks and CO leaks could stem from the construction and money issues.

surabi - 6-16-2023 at 09:30 PM

CO doesn't "leak", and has nothing to do with construction costs or labor problems during construction. Carbon monoxide is produced by improper combustion in a gas appliance. It is produced in the appliance itself, not in the gas lines, not at the gas tanks. The only way that happens is either because the appliance was defective to begin with, or the combustion isn't adjusted properly.

(There are other sources of carbon monoxide, like vehicle exhaust, so I suppose it's possible that a hotel could have an in-building parking garage where the exhaust could make its way into the rooms, but that doesn't seem likely- most parking garages are open to the outside, so CO would disipate.)

Gas stoves with pilot lights are potentially more dangerous than those with electronic ignitions, like mine, or those you have to light manually, because the pilot light itself could be constantly emitting CO. Or an appliance may not be in the unit itself, but the CO is entering the unit from wherever it is being produced, through the air ducting system, under doors, whatever.

The smell of leaking gas, which is a different problem, could certainly be due to faulty gas fittings during construction. The hotel had apparently had other guests mention the smell of gas and seemingly hadn't gotten anyone to check out where it was coming from and fix it. Leaking gas lines can cause an explosion if someone lights a match or lighter or it is in an appliance which has a flame. Every few years I can smell propane gas in my kitchen, put soapy water on the stove fittings and hose that connects to the gas line and always find that the hose itself needs to be replaced. I think when the gal who cleans for me pulls the stove out to clean behind and slides it back in place, she kinks the hose which eventually causes it to start leaking.

But construction overruns and labor problems are entirely irrelevant to a hotel disabling safety warning devices or not hiring someone to locate the source of the propane smell. If the CO detectors were constantly going off, that means there was CO in the units and instead of having a technician find out what appliances were emitting CO and fixing them, they just disabled the alarms.

It's like disabling your vehicle engine warning light because it keeps flashing, instead of taking your car to a mechanic to find out what's wrong with the engine.

[Edited on 6-17-2023 by surabi]

[Edited on 6-17-2023 by surabi]

[Edited on 6-17-2023 by surabi]

SFandH - 6-17-2023 at 04:12 AM

CO doesn't "leak", and has nothing to do with construction costs or labor problems during construction.

Assuming for the moment that a faulty appliance is the cause, could it be that the appliance was not properly vented to the outside during construction and a post-construction safety inspection was not performed?

JDCanuck - 6-17-2023 at 05:56 AM

There are very inexpensive units from Kidde that detect both CO and "gas" leaks and can easily be installed in any residence that has unused power receptacles.
Easy to test frequently and with voice announcements that specify which they have detected. We have several smoke, fire, CO and gas detectors wired(linked) and battery operated installed in our home in Canada. A very cheap insurance is available. Unfortunately, far too many fatal fires are reported where people refused to replace their batteries because of nuisance alarms.
https://www.homedepot.ca/product/kidde-plug-in-carbon-monoxi...
Secondly, just because a hot water heater, gas storage tank or BBQ is installed outside, do not assume you are protected, as most leaks will be found in the piping buried within the walls, either because improper materials were used, seismic activity has caused leaks or several other factors. We found three leaks on delivery piping when we had all the exposed joints tested for leaks recently following new construction.

[Edited on 6-17-2023 by JDCanuck]

JDCanuck - 6-17-2023 at 06:18 AM

There was a tragic case in our small town years ago where a bad joint in the gas supply line buried outside the home traveled along the line into the house and when the daughter switched on her light switch in the morning the accumulated natural gas exploded, blew the roof off the house and the mother was killed when it fell back down. The daughter was blown out the side of the house and survived.

If you use gas to run any appliances, one of those detectors should be a must have, especially in Baja

AKgringo - 6-17-2023 at 07:11 AM

Last year a cabin near Donner Summit blew up because a heavy, dense snow pack damaged a regulator or supply line on a propane tank. Being heavier than air, the propane followed a void in the snow into the cabin, and eventually found an ignition source!

That has happened a few times that I am aware of in the Tahoe/Truckee area.

JDCanuck - 6-17-2023 at 07:24 AM

Quote: Originally posted by AKgringo

Last year a cabin near Donner Summit blew up because a heavy, dense snow pack damaged a regulator or supply line on a propane tank. Being heavier than air, the propane followed a void in the snow into the cabin, and eventually found an ignition source!

That has happened a few times that I am aware of in the Tahoe/Truckee area.

Which indicates that propane or butane gas detectors should be installed lower on walls than we typically install the fire/smoke or even CO/natural gas detectors. Our CO detectors are installed about 3/4 up the wall, while propane/butane gas detectors should be installed near floor levels. Oddly, in our leaks at Baja the Mercaptan smell we typically rely on up here was not detected in our butane leaks that were located with soap testing. Do they not add mercaptan to the bottles in Baja?

[Edited on 6-17-2023 by JDCanuck]

AKgringo - 6-17-2023 at 08:13 AM

I don't know if there are any sources of natural gas, or other forms of methane in Baja California, but they would rise like CO does.

tomieharder - 6-17-2023 at 08:17 AM

Nothing is going to happen to the hotel operator. If sued, the hotel will counter sue the architect, the contractor and the appliance manufacturer. The attorneys for all the defendants will place the blame on the dead couple. There is no law requiring CO detectors in Mexico, thus no law forbidding their deactivation.

Welcome to Mexico. This too will be forgotten in short order, just like all the other intoxication deaths in Mexico.

RFClark - 6-17-2023 at 08:41 AM

SF&H,

If you don’t pay contractors they don’t finish the job. Things like leak testing and exhaust vents are usually done last. If you squeeze them on prices they use substandard materials or omit them altogether. Demand water heaters require SS exhaust venting. Have you ever looked for SS vent tubing in BCS?

JD,

Install smoke & CO detectors on the wall I usually put them over the door if there’s enough clearance. Install propane detectors close to the floor at floor plug hight. The old standard for OR’s that used propane derivative or other flammable anesthetics was no power outlets below 4’ so a propane detector too high on the wall won’t detect anything.

We have discovered that flys gather in large numbers around propane leaks. This works even in wind that stops my detector from working well. Yes, at least our BCS supplier has propane with smell added,

additional info on Pescadero

bajarickster - 6-17-2023 at 08:47 AM

getting drunk is part of the wellness program??

https://nypost.com/2023/06/16/mexican-resort-where-us-couple...

RFClark - 6-17-2023 at 08:49 AM

T,

This resort is a part of the Hyatt System. Being from the US this couple probably booked through the US Hyatt system. Hyatt uses their reputation to sell bookings in foreign resorts by implying that those resorts meet Hyatt's standards for a variety of things.

Suing Hyatt in the US is a no brainer. Loosing money or business (Think Target & Bud Lite here) is the only pain these folks feel.

JDCanuck - 6-17-2023 at 09:03 AM

RFC: We noted that in our ORs as well so they always required a bit different thinking, especially in regard to pressure differentials and anaesthetic gasses placement. Residences fortunately are generally lower on the wall and should be pretty ideal for gas detectors with plug in specs.

Yes, details of designed installs in final stages especially were hard to get finalized in Baja, especially through Covid years. Bureaucratic delays were far worse up here and fortunately in Baja it only took additional cash to get deficiencies resolved. We are now past 2 1/2 years and only very recently through separate contractors getting minor deficiencies corrected.

RFClark - 6-17-2023 at 09:12 AM

JD,

Ether and Cyclopropane were very flammable. High air exchange rates helped, that said ESUs were very common back then lots of old Ritters and not many explosions.

AKgringo - 6-17-2023 at 09:14 AM

JD, the Covid 19 pandemic will continue to be the reason things are behind schedule until it is replaced by a tropical storm, earthquake, or some other major event.

The delays will continue, but the reasons will mutate!

[Edited on 6-17-2023 by AKgringo]

JDCanuck - 6-17-2023 at 09:31 AM

JD,

Ether and Cyclopropane were very flammable. High air exchange rates helped, that said ESUs were very common back then lots of old Ritters and not many explosions.

I sense you and I share similar backgrounds RFC. Which perhaps explains somewhat why we also share our disrespect for politicians and other arm chair influencers claiming superior knowledge and overriding decades of practical Engineering experience to achieve their self serving goals.

RFClark - 6-17-2023 at 09:36 AM

JD,

I did Medical Electronics back in the 70’s and early 80’s that’s what got me into the movie business.

The “High regard” in which I hold most politicians and other things that slither comes from Jay Ward, Walt Kelly and Al Capp.

[Edited on 6-17-2023 by RFClark]

[Edited on 6-17-2023 by RFClark]

[Edited on 6-17-2023 by RFClark]

surabi - 6-17-2023 at 11:26 AM

Quote: Originally posted by JDCanuck

Secondly, just because a hot water heater, gas storage tank or BBQ is installed outside, do not assume you are protected, as most leaks will be found in the piping buried within the walls, either because improper materials were used, seismic activity has caused leaks or several other factors.

[Edited on 6-17-2023 by JDCanuck]

There isn't any gas piping buried in walls or underground from my outside hot water heater, there would be no need for that. There's a hose from the propane cylinder to the water heater, that's it.

In my kitchen, at the other end of the house, which uses a separate cylinder for the stove, the gas line is buried in the wall, but it's only about a 2mtr. stretch.
And if building from scratch, that could be easily avoided by designing the kitchen so the stove is on an outside wall, so the gas line only has to pass through the wall, not buried along it.

[Edited on 6-17-2023 by surabi]

SFandH - 6-17-2023 at 12:07 PM

I did Medical Electronics back in the 70’s and early 80’s that’s what got me into the movie business.

That's a head-scratcher, but......,but........, you don't need to elaborate.

RFClark - 6-17-2023 at 01:32 PM

SH&F,

Think General Hospital here.

RFClark - 6-22-2023 at 09:09 AM

My Wife read a news report this morning that Rancho Pescadero Hotel is currently closed due to the investigation.

pauldavidmena - 6-22-2023 at 04:35 PM

:light:

My Wife read a news report this morning that Rancho Pescadero Hotel is currently closed due to the investigation.

I just read this corroborating article in the NY Daily News and other outlets.

surabi - 6-22-2023 at 05:25 PM

Not surprising. There was a restaurant in Puerto Vallarta, right on the main highway a couple blocks from Costco, where some politico got shot and killed in the bathroom a few years ago, obviously a targeted hit. He was supposedly in town vacationing with his wife and kids, but was at the restaurant with some other guys, not his family, probably a set-up.

Not only did the restaurant close down for a year or two, it finally re-opened under a different name, maybe with new management.

pacificobob - 6-24-2023 at 12:08 PM

I did Medical Electronics back in the 70’s and early 80’s that’s what got me into the movie business.

That's a head-scratcher, but......,but........, you don't need to elaborate.

Don Pisto - 6-24-2023 at 12:19 PM

Quote: Originally posted by pacificobob

I did Medical Electronics back in the 70’s and early 80’s that’s what got me into the movie business.

That's a head-scratcher, but......,but........, you don't need to elaborate.

monoloco - 7-15-2023 at 06:52 AM

There are a few clues that point to the likely cause.
The maid reported that she went to clean the room and no one answered the door, but she could hear the shower running, she returned several hours later and there was still no answer and the shower was still running, the fact that the carbon monoxide level in that room was so high that it immediately sickened the first responders, would seem to indicate that there was an issue with the venting of the water heater. The length of time that the shower was running with the water heater also constantly running, would explain the extreme concentration of CO in that room.

RFClark - 7-15-2023 at 08:18 AM

Monoloco,

I spoke with someone who works with the Pescadero FD. They don’t have CO testing equipment and are not sure what was in the room.

The pictures of the rooms don’t show water heaters in the bathrooms and they don’t seem to have conventional kitchens there.

That doesn’t mean it’s not CO as the custom here is not to put water traps in the gray water drains and CO rises as it’s lighter than air,

mtgoat666 - 7-15-2023 at 08:55 AM

Is the death trap hotel still shut down? I assume they would only reopen with full forensic report shared publicly, right?

monoloco - 7-15-2023 at 03:12 PM

Monoloco,

I spoke with someone who works with the Pescadero FD. They don’t have CO testing equipment and are not sure what was in the room.

The pictures of the rooms don’t show water heaters in the bathrooms and they don’t seem to have conventional kitchens there.

That doesn’t mean it’s not CO as the custom here is not to put water traps in the gray water drains and CO rises as it’s lighter than air,

The water heater is typically not in the bathroom, but in an adjacent equipment room, I'm guessing there was an issue with the venting of the heater, that somehow allowed it to leak into the room. I can't thing of any other substance other than CO that could have created those results, if it would have been propane, someone would have smelled it, and if the concentration was that high, the place likely would have gone up in a ball of flames.

monoloco - 7-15-2023 at 03:15 PM

Quote: Originally posted by mtgoat666

Is the death trap hotel still shut down? I assume they would only reopen with full forensic report shared publicly, right?

They're closed, but there are still some people working on the uncompleted areas.

surabi - 7-15-2023 at 03:24 PM

CO coming up out of a grey water drain makes no sense whatsover, regardless of whether it has a trap or not. If the water heater was malfunctioning, that is connected to water pipes, not drains, and the CO would be in the air, perhaps travelling through the air conditioning vents.

RFClark - 7-15-2023 at 03:39 PM

S,

You are definitely not a Plumber, whatever else you may be.

https://plumbingsolved.com/can-sewer-gas-make-you-sick/

RFClark - 7-15-2023 at 05:54 PM

Yes, thats why they give you a rubber thingy to put over the drain.

surabi - 7-15-2023 at 06:04 PM

Have you stayed in that hotel and seen that they have rubber drain covers?

Those drain covers aren't just used to block sewer smells, btw. They are useful in preventing c-ckroaches from crawling up out of the drains (and they have no problem crawling up traps) and keeping drain flies, mosquitoes, and other insects attracted to water and dampness from congregating.

RFClark - 7-15-2023 at 06:24 PM

S,

I watched them build that place. We lived next door. I talked to the BF of the woman who managed it during construction and quit because things got so bad as a result of cost overruns during the final phases of construction.

Can you say corners cut in plumbing, gas and electrical to save $$$ since they are done last?

Have you been there or seen the facility?

[Edited on 7-16-2023 by RFClark]

karenintx - 7-15-2023 at 07:04 PM

The rumor we have heard is, "there an is underground gas pipe leading to a fire pit that ran under this unit/room."

So, maybe the pipe connections where not done correctly which would have lead to the leak, which was causing the alarms to go off, which lead to the manager telling the workers to disconnect the alarms as it was disturbing guests.

So sad!

surabi - 7-15-2023 at 07:16 PM

Racist? Give me a break. I'm talking about what I have seen here in construction, in this country, which happens to involve the people who work here as builders, who happen to be Mexican, in case you didn't notice. And when I say "Mexican house" I mean a house in Mexico, nothing to do with whether it is owned by or built for a Mexican, an American, a Canadian, or a Frenchman.

And yes, there are often many corners cut when it gets to the final stages of building projects. That's why I prefer paying labor and materials, rather than a contract price. Accurate estimating isn't a strong point here, nor is budgeting, and things are too often low-balled, so they are actually out of money before the project is finished. (Not that that doesn't also happen elsewhere)

Contrary to what you mentioned elsewhere, if the homeowner is onsite and actively involved, as I was, and you were, there doesn't have to be any standing around or too many guys, dragging it out and having it take longer because they are getting paid by the day. I was a task master on my build. If the guy mixing cement was leaning on his shovel waiting for the mix to slake, I'd instruct him to do something like gather up all the half blocks scattered around and stack them up where the maestros were working, so they didn't keep cutting more blocks in half every time they needed one.

I treated my crew well and paid them well, but they quickly came to understand that I wasn't willing to pay people to stand around doing nothing. There's always something that needs attending to on a construction site, even if it's just gathering up all the chip bags and empty coke bottles they drop everywhere and putting them in a garbage bag, and if they couldn't figure out how to keep busy, I directed them.

[Edited on 7-16-2023 by surabi]

[Edited on 7-16-2023 by surabi]

mtgoat666 - 7-15-2023 at 09:25 PM

The rumor we have heard is, "there an is underground gas pipe leading to a fire pit that ran under this unit/room."

So, maybe the pipe connections where not done correctly which would have lead to the leak, which was causing the alarms to go off, which lead to the manager telling the workers to disconnect the alarms as it was disturbing guests.

So sad!

Two dead, so many others overcome by gas or bad air. The place is cursed. Really should bulldoze it, return the cursed land to nature.

surabi - 7-15-2023 at 10:04 PM

Well, rumors are just that, but it does sound like that could have been the issue. It doesn't even have to have been connections that weren't done properly to start with- minor earthquakes or other things could cause leaks after the fact.

However, if the cause of death is determined to be CO poisoning, that rumor makes no sense. Leaking gas lines leak propane gas, not CO. So it would have to have been gas poisoning, and the thing is, you can usually smell gas leaks, whereas CO is odorless.

Disabling alarms instead of immediately investigating and dealing with the source of the problem is the real crime here.

[Edited on 7-17-2023 by surabi]

Cliffy - 7-17-2023 at 08:09 AM

Generally speaking doesn't CO poisoning present as a red skin tone upon death from same? No mention of the red skin coloration

AKgringo - 7-17-2023 at 09:08 AM

Quote: Originally posted by Cliffy

Generally speaking doesn't CO poisoning present as a red skin tone upon death from same? No mention of the red skin coloration

I have never heard about a symptom of red skin tone before, but my training was in first aid and rescue, not forensics.

While we are on the topic, I would like to pass on a warning to anyone that might find themselves stuck in deep snow. Co can build up under your vehicle, so if you run the engine and heater to stay warm you could be in danger.

surabi - 7-17-2023 at 09:41 AM

There was a young woman somewhere in the northeast US, as I recall, who earlier this winter had pulled off the road in a major blizzard, and after calling her family to let them know where she was, and what was happening, was found dead in her car the following day. She had been running the heater to keep from freezing to death, when unbeknowst to her, the tailpipe was packed with snow and ice.

AKgringo - 7-17-2023 at 09:45 AM

A teen age couple in Anchorage found a secluded spot to park his 4x4 so they could make out. It was a fatal decision!

Cliffy - 7-17-2023 at 10:45 AM

OK so I went back to school and reread some stuff and it seems that the red coloring from CO poisoning happens in about 1% to 4% of the cases. Nice to recheck as I occasionally train pilots in CO poisoning in small aircraft where the cabin heater is a muffler like device around the exhaust pipes and any cracks in the exhaust pipe will push exhaust CO into the cabin. There are optional CO alarms designed just for small airplanes.

CO will combine with the hemoglobin much more easily than O2 thus displacing the O2 in the blood stream. Oxygen pulse oximeters for the finger tip of the hand will show 99% O2 saturation even when one is going unconscious from CO poisoning. They can't tell the difference between O2 and CO on the blood. (Remember we're talking CO (carbon monoxide, and NOT CO2, carbon Dioxide a product of exhalation)

Any fuel burning appliance will give off CO but if it is adjusted incorrectly the amount of CO given off goes up exponentially. That is why items like Mr Heater have CO cutoff circuits. IF the burning of the propane is not perfectly clean and the CO expended goes up the heater shuts itself off.

You can even get CO poisoning from some paint strippers as the gasses given off and inhaled cause the liver to have a delayed reaction and themselves give off CO into the blood stream.

Paco Facullo - 7-17-2023 at 11:41 AM

As a retired Plumbing contractor and avid traveler, I have inspected the plumbing in meny Countries. My conclusion is that it is installed to just "work" without any regard so safety.

When I visited Cuba, my reason for being there was professional research, so I started a website and interviewed workers on construction sites. I also examined and took photos of as much plumbing as I could. Needless to say, it just has to work..

Mexico is pretty much the same...

surabi - 7-17-2023 at 12:45 PM

"Suficientemente bueno".

If I had it to do over again, when my house here was built, I would have had things like gas lines visible and accessible, in case they need to be worked on. Chiselling out cement block walls to find and repair leaks is a different ballgame than cutting out some drywall.

As it is, I only have one short gas line buried in the walls, only 2 meters, and have never had an issue with it, and a leaking gas line could result in gas poisoning, not CO poisoning, but it would still be better to have lines easily accessible.

AKgringo - 7-17-2023 at 02:00 PM

Quote......"and a leaking gas line could result in gas poisoning,"

Or an explosion!

surabi - 7-17-2023 at 02:39 PM

Yes, explosions from leaking gas are, I would imagine, more of a threat than gas poisoning.
Whenever I have my gas cylinders switched out, I always check the connections I can get to with soap and water. But the couple of times I smelled propane in my kitchen, it turned out to be the hose from the stove to the gas connection. Easy enough to change out.

mtgoat666 - 7-17-2023 at 03:39 PM

Yes, explosions from leaking gas are, I would imagine, more of a threat than gas poisoning.
Whenever I have my gas cylinders switched out, I always check the connections I can get to with soap and water. But the couple of times I smelled propane in my kitchen, it turned out to be the hose from the stove to the gas connection. Easy enough to change out.

Propane is explosive at 2 to 10 percent v/v. Asphyxiation by propane likely takes >10 percent v/v. Are odorizers used in propane in mexico?

SFandH - 7-17-2023 at 03:54 PM

Quote: Originally posted by mtgoat666

Are odorizers used in propane in mexico?

For sure, you can smell a tiny leak. It's a very distinct odor. I have wrestling matches with propane tanks for 6 months every year. The chits heavy. I also have a very big wrench to tighten down old connectors. A soapy water test is standard operating procedure.

[Edited on 7-17-2023 by SFandH]

surabi - 7-17-2023 at 04:45 PM

Oh yeah, I can smell a propane leak. Those cylinders are sometimes way too old. I got one that was actually leaking from a pinhole in the tank itself.
And my propane delivery guy only uses a pipe wrench, which damages the nut connection, making it impossible for me to switch it over to my small barbeque tank if I run out. I make him use my correct size wrench when he comes.

mtgoat666 - 7-17-2023 at 05:56 PM

Quote: Originally posted by lencho

I also have a very big wrench to tighten down old connectors.

Teflon tape on the threads helps with that. It doesn't seal, but I think it helps exert more pressure on the flare face without having to torque so hard (also makes it easier to remove).

I've also used tape on the contact face if it's really dinged up, but in that case it's probably better to replace it.

Dont use tape or sealant on flared fittings or fittings with o rings. If fittings are damaged, then replace them. Using a longer wrench to ‘fix’ damaged fittings is recipe for failure.
If vendor uses improper tools/techniques, then teach them correct way, or find another vendor.

[Edited on 7-18-2023 by mtgoat666]

surabi - 7-17-2023 at 07:19 PM

Yes, my propane delivery guy, the same one who rounds the nuts with his damn pipe wrench, wants to put teflon tape on the flared fitting of the regulator where it sits in the cylinder opening. My American plumber told me that isn't right, they shouldn't need tape. When I had a leak at that fitting, I just went and bought a new regulator. They aren't at all expensive.

surabi - 7-17-2023 at 10:13 PM

Yeah, well, I didn't mean that because he's American he must be right, but gas fittings aren't something I had any knowledge about, aside from knowing how to check for leaks with soapy water, and I had no reason to think he would be telling me something incorrect.

And my experiences in Mexico is that funky repairs are fairly commonplace, which on some levels I appreciate, like my mechanic reattaching my broken steering linkage with a zip tie, which lasted for 6 years.

But a lot of the time the funky repairs are just due to Mexicans not having money to spare or not wanting to spend it, whereas I would rather just go buy a new regulator than have one that leaks unless it has teflon tape on it.

mtgoat666 - 7-17-2023 at 10:26 PM

Yeah, well, I didn't mean that because he's American he must be right, but gas fittings aren't something I had any knowledge about, aside from knowing how to check for leaks with soapy water, and I had no reason to think he would be telling me something incorrect.

And my experiences in Mexico is that funky repairs are fairly commonplace, which on some levels I appreciate, like my mechanic reattaching my broken steering linkage with a zip tie, which lasted for 6 years.

But a lot of the time the funky repairs are just due to Mexicans not having money to spare or not wanting to spend it, whereas I would rather just go buy a new regulator than have one that leaks unless it has teflon tape on it.

Usa is not immune from bad work….
You get what you pay for!

surabi - 7-17-2023 at 11:27 PM

Yes, friends and family tell me that shoddy workmanship is getting more prevalent in Canada, too.
And a lot of people don't know anything about how to tell if it's a good job or not until it causes some problem down the line.
What I referred to as my American plumber was actually an electrician by trade, but did all my plumbing and electric on my house here in Mexico. He lives here and is a good friend of mine. He must have done a good job, because I've never had any plumbing or electrical issues in the 16 years since the place was built.

Cliffy - 7-18-2023 at 08:42 AM

One only has to watch "Holmes on Homes" to realize the depth of ignorance most people have on home construction.

pacificobob - 7-18-2023 at 10:06 AM

Quote: Originally posted by lencho

I also have a very big wrench to tighten down old connectors.

I agree. Teflon used to compensate for a damaged flair surface is indeed a questionable practice.

monoloco - 8-9-2023 at 03:33 PM

Quote: Originally posted by Paco Facullo

As a retired Plumbing contractor and avid traveler, I have inspected the plumbing in meny Countries. My conclusion is that it is installed to just "work" without any regard so safety.

When I visited Cuba, my reason for being there was professional research, so I started a website and interviewed workers on construction sites. I also examined and took photos of as much plumbing as I could. Needless to say, it just has to work..

Mexico is pretty much the same...

The problem in Mexico is that there is no licensing or standards for becoming an electrician or a plumber, and here in Baja Sur, there's a double whammy of no inspections. There is so much work here that typically what happens is that a kid will go to work for a plumber/electrician for a few months or a year, then he'll decide that he knows enough to become a plumbing contractor and hire his primo or sobrino, and start bidding jobs, then in a few months the sobrino will also become a contractor, rinse and repeat. It doesn't take long for this to lead to a whole bunch of plumbers/electricians who never learned the basic concepts of their trade, who leave a trail of shoddy and dangerous work in their wake.

RFClark - 8-9-2023 at 05:31 PM

Guys,

If there was enough propane in a room to make you ill it would ignite when someone turned on a light. Propane is heaver than air and smells which attracts lots of flys. In Mexico if you have an exposed leak the flys will find it.

mtgoat666 - 8-9-2023 at 07:20 PM

Guys,

If there was enough propane in a room to make you ill it would ignite when someone turned on a light. Propane is heaver than air and smells which attracts lots of flys. In Mexico if you have an exposed leak the flys will find it.

Wrong, clarky. Propane is only combustible at concentrations between 2 and 10 percent (v/v air). Over 10% the propane is too rich to combust. If people are asleep or have no sense of smell, high concentrations of propane will not be noticed and will asphyxiate.

surabi - 8-10-2023 at 11:00 AM