BajaNomad - Salute to all my fellow veterans

Salute to all my fellow veterans

thebajarunner - 11-11-2023 at 07:53 AM

We made it back
Some of us not all in one piece, but we still served and survived
A big thanks to all who sacrificed those precious years of our youth to defend this country.

Anchors Aweiigh

pacificobob - 11-11-2023 at 08:30 AM

Few things offend me.more than being "thanked for my service" allowing myself to be drafted is my greatest regret. Viet nam was horrible. I wish i had been brave enough to tell the draft board to go f themselves.

AKgringo - 11-11-2023 at 09:02 AM

I also was drafted in January of 1967, and have no regrets! I was a bright young man spinning my wheels in a community college, so it was a good time for exposure to a world view that you can find nowhere else.

I admit that I never experienced the horrors of the Viet Nam war, but service in a DMZ police battalion in Korea was still a high risk assignment during the reign of Kim Il Sung.

When I returned home after three years and re-united with friends and family around my age, it was different being the adult in the room!

A tip of the hat to my fellow veterans! :thumbup:

Lee - 11-11-2023 at 10:58 AM

Quote: Originally posted by pacificobob

Few things offend me.more than being "thanked for my service" allowing myself to be drafted is my greatest regret. Viet nam was horrible. I wish i had been brave enough to tell the draft board to go f themselves.

Easy on yourself, man. Hindsight and all that BS.

You didn't have to go. I have read, and talked to a man who went to Canada, after being drafted. The opinions were they should have gone. That might be a generalization not widely held.

Picked up body parts of my fire team after a direct mortar hit. Screwed up my head for a long time. I was 18. Then it just got worse the second time around.

Not glad I went but I did buy into the tradition of Duty, Honor, County.

You could have ran, Bob. You made a choice to serve even though you didn't want to. To me, that's Honor.

Nobody liked being over there, esp. if you were a Marine in I Corps. The whole place was a war zone, though.

I don't thank anyone for service. I do honor them, though. Whatever war zone you were in.

surabi - 11-11-2023 at 11:42 AM

Quote: Originally posted by thebajarunner

A big thanks to all who sacrificed those precious years of our youth to defend this country.

Vietnam had nothing to do with "defending this country". Nor do most of the wars in which the US participates. This is not necessarily bad- obviously Hitler had to be stopped.

" I have read, and talked to a man who went to Canada, after being drafted. The opinions were they should have gone. That might be a generalization not widely held."

I can assure you it is not. You talked to "a man". Tons of my Canadian friends were Vietnam draft dodgers and not one of them feels they "should have gone." In fact, I became a Canadian because I met and married a US draft dodger overseas and he couldn't go back to the US, so we went to Canada.

One close friend's entire family, who had the means to do so, picked up and moved to Canada when the draft began. The parents said, "No way are we letting our 2 sons get sent to die in Vietnam." His parents moved back to the States eventually, but he and his brother have lived in Canada ever since. Although the US declared amnesty for the Vietnam draft dodgers, plenty of American young men had zero desire to go back.

AKgringo - 11-11-2023 at 11:55 AM

Lee, I almost wound up in the Marine corps! I was inducted at the Oakland Army Terminal along with a couple of hundred other young men.

The Marines were looking for "A few good men" at that time, so the first fifty in line were drafted into the Corps. We of course were lined up alphabetically, and one of my friends wound up in that group. At least it was for only two years instead of the four that enlisted Marines served!

thebajarunner - 11-11-2023 at 12:21 PM

Yes, I was honored to serve my country
Sorry for those who feel otherwise
I have been to Canada numerous times
If that is your idea of Nirvana, than please don't let us hold you back.

I went in a rather nervous 18 year old who had totally screwed up a year and half of college
Came out a mature 21 year old who went back, got on the high honors roll, worked nights stocking shelves at Safeway, paid all my college costs (No VA benefits/ no college loans I am trying to weasel out of)

Later on got colon cancer (99.9% certain it came from my ship being closely involved in the nuclear testing at Bikini and Eniwitok) Total hearing loss thanks to 3 years of loading 38 pound projectiles into the 5" gun with no hearing protection, and a few other dings.

This country certainly is not perfect. But, I have visited 85 countries and still looking for one that comes close to what we have and enjoy.
Go on up to Canada, I will send you a map and best wishes.

A proud Navy vet who paid his dues and some of yours as well

surabi - 11-11-2023 at 01:18 PM

Pointing out that many draft dodgers went to, and remained in Canada has nothing to do with it being "your idea of Nirvana".

And while it's fine that you consider your country to be the best place on earth to live, FYI, among countries voted the best places to live, with the highest quality of life and the highest "happiness" scores, the US doesn't even make the top 10. Canada is at #2 or #3, depending on which studies you look at.

Anyone who declares the US to be "the greatest country on earth", as if that were some inarguable fact, has to willfully ignore the large percentage of the population that lives in poverty, without access to decent medical care, education or job opportunities. The US also has the highest infant and maternal death rates of any high-income country. And 54% of US adults have a literacy level of sixth grade or lower and 22% are functionally illiterate.

And BTW, I wasn't dissing vets, not at all. While I am a pacifist and wish humans could solve their problems without killing each other, I am also pragmatic and realize a military force is necessary. And while it's great that the military provided you with needed maturity, it just seems insane to me to send 18 year olds, the future of a country, off to be cannon fodder.

[Edited on 11-11-2023 by surabi]

mtgoat666 - 11-11-2023 at 02:21 PM

Quote: Originally posted by surabi

Pointing out that many draft dodgers went to, and remained in Canada has nothing to do with it being "your idea of Nirvana".

And while it's fine that you consider your country to be the best place on earth to live, FYI, among countries voted the best places to live, with the highest quality of life and the highest "happiness" scores, the US doesn't even make the top 10. Canada is at #2 or #3, depending on which studies you look at.

Anyone who declares the US to be "the greatest country on earth", as if that were some inarguable fact, has to willfully ignore the large percentage of the population that lives in poverty, without access to decent medical care, education or job opportunities. The US also has the highest infant and maternal death rates of any high-income country. And 54% of US adults have a literacy level of sixth grade or lower and 22% are functionally illiterate.

And BTW, I wasn't dissing vets, not at all. While I am a pacifist and wish humans could solve their problems without killing each other, I am also pragmatic and realize a military force is necessary. And while it's great that the military provided you with needed maturity, it just seems insane to me to send 18 year olds, the future of a country, off to be cannon fodder.

[Edited on 11-11-2023 by surabi]

Surabi,
Criticizing vets or the military on verterans day always goes over like a lead balloon. Just saying.

Though canada is a pretty nice place, and is a lot better than many places in the usa!

On this armistice day, i am remembering several military veterans, including my union soldier ancestor who died in libby prison due to neglect-mistreatment by confederate jailers that caused so many to perish of preventable diseases.

Lee - 11-11-2023 at 02:46 PM

Don't think much of draft dodgers. Too many ways to get out of the draft other than running.

Carter was wrong giving immunity to cowards. Canada granting immunity to cowards says it all.

surabi - 11-11-2023 at 03:10 PM

Considering men who don't want to go to war, who don't want to kill anyone, or die in a war halfway across the world that has nothing to do with them, or anything they believe in, as "cowards" is based in patriarcal notions of masculinity and what it means to be a "real man". In fact, there would be far less men enlisting if that faulty societal notion didn't exist. The world could do with less of that. There are many ways to be brave and be a hero that don't involve donning a uniform, taking orders and becoming an expendable killing machine.

[Edited on 11-11-2023 by surabi]

[Edited on 11-11-2023 by surabi]

mtgoat666 - 11-11-2023 at 03:32 PM

Quote: Originally posted by Lee

Don't think much of draft dodgers. Too many ways to get out of the draft other than running.

Carter was wrong giving immunity to cowards. Canada granting immunity to cowards says it all.

The draft was the way that establishment/ruling class forced kids to fight their wars. The draft was wrong. There is nothing dishonorable from fleeing from forced military service, being forced to be canon fodder for the ruling class/industrialists/establishment.

There is nothing cowardly about refusing forced service as a pawn.

The coawardly act is the rich/powerful classes forcing the poorer classes to fight their wars.

[Edited on 11-11-2023 by mtgoat666]

Don Pisto - 11-11-2023 at 03:54 PM

well I gotta go with bajarunner with a salute is in order or at least a "SALUD"

for us Vets on our day. thank us don't thank us doesn't matter to me, again I hope all you eligible have signed on with the PACT ACT. :yes:

AKgringo - 11-11-2023 at 04:41 PM

I have told this story before, probably on a previous BajaNomad veterans day thread, but a friend who lived in the same neighborhood as me for years was drafted about the same time I was.

He was a conscientious objector who refused to take up arms against even an enemy. He served as a combat medic in Viet Nam and decided to continue being a first responder after he served his military obligation.

Another long time friend served as a Navy Seal. When I talked with either of them years later, neither ever bragged about their service in combat.

surabi - 11-11-2023 at 07:21 PM

Quote: Originally posted by mtgoat666

Exactly. Know why the US declared amnesty for the Vietnam draft dodgers? Because the draft dodgers who fled were the educated, middle class boys who had the means to pick up and put down stakes elsewhere and the US wanted them back. They were qualified for higher paying jobs than the poor boys, and therefore pay more taxes. They'd already lost over 58,000 potential work force and taxpayers in the war, and thousands more came back too effed up physically or mentally to be employable. The estimate of those who fled the draft is 60,000-100,000.

[Edited on 11-12-2023 by surabi]

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[Edited on 11-12-2023 by surabi]

pacificobob - 11-11-2023 at 11:51 PM

Quote: Originally posted by mtgoat666

Quote: Originally posted by Lee

Don't think much of draft dodgers. Too many ways to get out of the draft other than running.

Carter was wrong giving immunity to cowards. Canada granting immunity to cowards says it all.

X2 nothing was gained by US involvement in Viet Nam that I'm aware of.

pauldavidmena - 11-12-2023 at 06:58 AM

My two younger sons served in the Marines and both feel awkward when someone thanks them for their service. My middle son served for 8 years, and started out in the Communications Corps in Iraq and Afghanistan because it was considered safer than infantry. Early on, when he climbed a tower to adjust a satellite dish, he came under sniper fire. Rather than being permitted to return fire, he was ordered to relay the coordinates of the oncoming assault. A minute later, there was a loud blast, and no more sniper fire. After that incident, he transferred to infantry, which was largely uneventful. He made it back alive, but at 34, he hardly sleeps on account of the nightmares.

My younger son remained stateside and never entered combat. At 32 he's still trying to figure out what to do with his life. Both coyly say "thank you" when they're thanked for their service.

[Edited on 11-12-2023 by pauldavidmena]

Lee - 11-12-2023 at 09:42 AM

Quote: Originally posted by pacificobob

Quote: Originally posted by mtgoat666

Quote: Originally posted by Lee

Don't think much of draft dodgers. Too many ways to get out of the draft other than running.

Carter was wrong giving immunity to cowards. Canada granting immunity to cowards says it all.

X2 nothing was gained by US involvement in Viet Nam that I'm aware of.

Agreed. The SE Conflict was based on lies and political shenanigans. For the troops on the ground though, it was believing that there was a Domino Effect playing out and as countries fell to communism, that effect would travel East to the US.

I believe, strongly, in a national military draft for all boys and girls 18 y.o. and over. Serve 2 years. Period.

Options would be Peace Corps, Vista, missionary work, whatever, but service to the Country is mandatory. Similar to Israel, or folks in Utah.

Mohammad Ali was prepared to go to jail over his beliefs. Draftees could op for CO status (think Hacksaw Ridge).

Nobody rides free. There's a price living in the US. Looking for a free ride move to Canada. They don't care.

Stand and fight for beliefs at home or run like cowards and leave the US. Don't come back.

pacificobob - 11-12-2023 at 09:47 AM

The custom and practice of thanking vets seems to have evolved after returning Viet Nam vets were berated for participating in a highly unpopular war. A sort of social guilt behavior.

AKgringo - 11-12-2023 at 10:23 AM

Passing through SFO on my return from Korea, an attractive hippy chick approached me and asked how many babies I killed.

Three years in the Army changed things for me, but the changes in the culture at home during those three years was difficult to adjust to.

surabi - 11-12-2023 at 11:32 AM

I felt bad for the Vietnam vets in that regard- it was the first time vets didn't return home to be lauded as heroes. Must have been awful to come back traumatized mentally and physically and have people put the blame on you for going to war. And it's not like most enlisted- they were drafted and the options of fleeing the country or choosing to go to prison as a contientious objector weren't exactly enticing to anyone, even the ones who did flee. It's not like the draft dodgers thought, "Oh, goodie, I've always wanted to live in Canada"- they were leaving their families, the place they had been born and lived their whole lives behind, without knowing if they would ever be allowed to go back, and going somewhere they knew no one, had no secured employment or living situation, and also fearful of being tracked down and sent to prison. Anyone who thinks that was an easy decision is uninformed.

[Edited on 11-12-2023 by surabi]

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KurtG - 11-12-2023 at 12:16 PM

We are often told that "we must support the troops." My reply is that we support the troops by not putting them in harm's way for a bad cause.
Kurt: US Army 1962-65

pauldavidmena - 11-12-2023 at 12:33 PM

Quote: Originally posted by pacificobob

The custom and practice of thanking vets seems to have evolved after returning Viet Nam vets were berated for participating in a highly unpopular war. A sort of social guilt behavior.

I honestly prefer this gratitude, however rehearsed it might be, over the scorn dealt out to some of my older friends after returning home from Vietnam.

surfhat - 11-12-2023 at 01:46 PM

As the son of a greatest generation Marine corps pilot who served in WW2, Korea and Viet Nam, I have always honored those who chose to serve our nation, including those who were drafted.

It is so easy to honor all who have served our nation. Period.

Semper Fi applies to more than the Marines, and it damn well should to anyone who has served to defend our nation in times of conflict.

Some conflicts deserve resistance. VN was one, but not the only one.

Nevertheless, all soldiers in every service deserve our respect on this one day of the year that all veterans have earned the right to be honored by each one, dare I ay, everyone of us. Period.

Lee - 11-13-2023 at 09:18 AM

Quote: Originally posted by pauldavidmena

Quote: Originally posted by pacificobob

The custom and practice of thanking vets seems to have evolved after returning Viet Nam vets were berated for participating in a highly unpopular war. A sort of social guilt behavior.

I honestly prefer this gratitude, however rehearsed it might be, over the scorn dealt out to some of my older friends after returning home from Vietnam.

Sounds like you're going to continue using this worn out phrase.

If someone thanks me for service, I might ask if they served? And, if not, why not? Didn't hear the call? Too busy?

If someone disrespects my service, they might regret the dire consequences.

Howard - 11-13-2023 at 01:10 PM

I think some of you ex military and Jarheads are wound a little too tight. Stick to your beliefs if you wish and IMO then let the negative go. Anger gets you nothing. Yes, we want to teach the next generations of our past mistakes but build it with a positive as well as negative views. We as a country made MAJOR f--k ups but has got it right every now and then.
Education of the current generation is so important but your anger will turn them against us.
Howard
0311, E-2-7, 7th Regiment, 1965-1967

AKgringo - 11-13-2023 at 02:26 PM

Quote: Originally posted by Howard

I think some of you ex military and Jarheads are wound a little too tight. Stick to your beliefs if you wish and IMO then let the negative go. Anger gets you nothing. Yes, we want to teach the next generations of our past mistakes but build it with a positive as well as negative views. We as a country made MAJOR f--k ups but has got it right every now and then.
Education of the current generation is so important but your anger will turn them against us.
Howard
0311, E-2-7, 7th Regiment, 1965-1967

Well said Howard! I can be friends with someone with polar opposite ideas than mine as long as they are willing stick to an honest exchange of questions and answers.

I have no use for those who need to label others, lump them together, and verbally put them in their place!

One of those with polar opposite ideas during my military service was my older brother. He was a UC Santa Cruz student (political science) and was an anti-war protester! The wedge between us never got driven home, and there was never a time that we were not "Brothers" above all else.

To his credit, he decided to "serve" in the Peace Corps after graduation and shipped off to India.

AKgringo - 11-14-2023 at 09:17 AM

Quote: Originally posted by lencho

Which could have been as hazardous to his health, as your time "serving" in Korea.

You nailed it! He became extremely ill and suffered long term damage to his liver and pancreas.

Paco Facullo - 11-14-2023 at 09:22 PM

I couldn’t agree more with all that Surabi has said.

Funny thing is that I am here in Hiroshima and it’s been 50 years since I was here as a sailor. Back then I did go to the A-bomb memorial, it was a horrible experience, I felt like a complete piece of sh*T and was not proud of being an American.
I’ve always felt that the powers that be could have targeted a military base, instead of wasting innocent civilians.

The Vietnam war was started by the USA for financial reasons.
The USA has a long history of controlling and taking over countries in the name of “democracy “. what a joke that is.

America is not near as “free” as they brainwash the sheeple to believe….

But, truth be told, the USA is really controlled by the Federal Reserve and the Literati……

Lee - 11-15-2023 at 03:23 PM

Quote: Originally posted by Paco Facullo

Funny thing is that I am here in Hiroshima and it’s been 50 years since I was here as a sailor. Back then I did go to the A-bomb memorial, it was a horrible experience, I felt like a complete piece of sh*T and was not proud of being an American.
I’ve always felt that the powers that be could have targeted a military base, instead of wasting innocent civilians.
…

My father was a POW at Fucukoa #14 Nagasaki when the bomb dropped a mile away. He never forgave the Japanese.

Civilians will always be the bigger victims of war. Collateral damage is what it is. Only solution is no war.

surabi - 11-15-2023 at 08:46 PM

"Collateral damage" as a euphemism for killing innocent people is disgusting.

Paco Facullo - 11-16-2023 at 02:36 AM

Quote: Originally posted by surabi

"Collateral damage" as a euphemism for killing innocent people is disgusting.

Yep, there are lots of heartless egotistical psychopaths running around, and unfortunately, many of them are politicians …