BajaNomad

loreto bay, again

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Dave - 4-9-2007 at 11:02 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by capn.sharky
By insulating, I mean, not paying employees on time, not keeping promises made to Loreto regarding waste management and water problems and not treating employees with respect regarding housing etc.


Does anyone find it the least bit ironic that a foreign corporation would contract with a Mexican business in order to:

not pay employees on time..

Not keep promises made to Loreto regarding waste management and water problems and,

Not treat employees with respect regarding housing etc. ?

Don Alley - 4-9-2007 at 12:15 PM

LB does express an interest in the workforce, as described in their "Social Sustainability" discussion. It's on their website. There does seem to be a contradiction between the statements there and some of the actual conditions we've seen. And there also seem to be a contradiction between the "sustainability" guidlines, policy, sales pitch or whatever they are, and the positions some present here that the status of the workers is simply a responsibility of the contractors, and not LB.

Crusoe - 4-9-2007 at 05:32 PM

What happened to the older ( 2 weeks ago)Loreto Bay Co. therad?? Why was it moved off?? Any one know?? Thanks:biggrin:

reefrocket - 4-10-2007 at 07:29 AM

Crusoe did you use the search button at the top of the page? I plugged in " Loreto Bay Co. " and found three (?) threads.

wakemall - 4-10-2007 at 06:54 PM

Trust me, it is only a matter of time before LB fails. Either by lack of funds or relization of the poor construction resulting from an earthquake. Not to mention the lack of planning for water and sewer systems. Anybody that has watched this LB progress, viewed the site, and read all the information should be smart enough to figure this out.

There will be numerous people that walk away with a lot of money. It will not be the mexican workers that are stacked up in one bedroom housing.

How about the increase in drugs and crime resulting from the LB nightmare? We all know there is a drug problem in Loreto, but it is now visable to all.

One thing to say, "good bye LB". The sooner the better!

Don Alley - 4-10-2007 at 07:04 PM

Re: sewage systems

LB passed the buck on sewage back to Fonatur. A treatment plant is currently under construction by Fonatur. It's across the highway, near the development's nursery.

If you can believe sales figures...

Dave - 4-10-2007 at 07:17 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by wakemall
Trust me, it is only a matter of time before LB fails.


given the amount of money they have already made, how could they?

The project might fail, though. ;D

jerry - 4-11-2007 at 02:24 AM

i have a few questions
are most of the people working at loreto bay from loreto?? or come from the main land??
recently wasnt a large parcel of land south of loreto sold by a large number of familys to the tune of $55,000,000 us dollars
and another large parcel north of loreto in the $27,000,000us bucks by another large number of familys?
are we to tell these people not to sell there land?? what they should spend their money on?
in life as i know it you cant sell it and still have it' (except posibliy the penthouse)
these appear to be long time familys elders that O.K.ed these sales

i dont think the locals had much choise about loreto bay but they do have choses as to there future as loretoians and they are choosing to sell what they spend their money on is their busness

i allso think that loreto bay is small potatoes compared to the big picture for loreto

loreto was slated as a tourest trap many years ago look at escandeto and nopolo

Baja_Girl - 4-15-2007 at 04:17 PM

Hola mes amigos!
I am new to this forum, so please forgive typos, redundancy, etc...but I thought this was relevant and disturbing about Loreto Bay...the erudite and scholarly USA Today which was floating about the major airports last weekend featured an article about Loreto Bay...what amazed me was the b-s propaganda about how wonderful it will for the entire city...read this:

"The development at the Villages of Loreto Bay, although densely concentrated, aims to keep the aesthetic natural. About 5,000 of its 8,000 acres will be left as open space. The dwellings are constructed of adobe-style block made on-site. Gardeners tend a 25-acre organic garden. Developers say they'll create more wind and solar energy than the villages use. They'll harvest more drinking water than residents consume. Transportation will be via foot, bike and electric cart. And 1% of home sales goes to a non-profit foundation that finances community projects in the historic town. Clustered around courtyards with roof decks and observation towers, the housing style is Spanish colonial, but the vibe is more Santa Fe than Orange County.

"We could make it an extension of Southern California, but that's not what we want. That's not what our clients want," says Jim Grogan, president of the Scottsdale, Ariz.-based Loreto Bay Co.

Nor is it what the town of Loreto wants. "Maybe it's a good thing that Loreto got left behind (30) years ago," mayoral assistant Maria Elba Lombera says. "We're not playing catch-up, trying to build infrastructure and housing at the same time.

"Loreto will change. But not for the worse. Hopefully."

E-mail jeclark@usatoday.com

The entire miserable article can be found at:
http://www.usatoday.com/travel/destinations/2007-04-05-antic...

I am curious about what you think about this article...

adios,
Baja Girl

Don Alley - 4-15-2007 at 04:32 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Baja_Girl
I am curious about what you think about this article...

Baja Girl


We've heard it all, again and again.

Sales pitch for the clueless.

"Sustainability" cannot work here because of a lack of a key resource: people. Thousands of new residents from mainland Mexico must come here for Loreto Bay to exist. These people will consume more power and more water than Loreto Bay pretends it will produce. They will not drive electric cars. They will not live in adobe buildings.

Currently, Loreto Bay produces no fresh water or electricity. They are on the same grid and same water supply as everyone else. No construction for water or electric development has been initiated.

They have, however, created a morning and evening commuter "rush hour" between Loreto and Nopolo; they have brought urban sprawl to Loreto.

Maybe Don Imus will buy a place there. Commuters can listen to his radio show.:lol:

Baja_Girl - 4-15-2007 at 04:48 PM

"Sale pitch for the clueless" - I agree, but isn't it scary that this is being doled out as national news...not only isn't it factual, but (from my limited but awesome trips to Loreto) not even remotely feasible...it is also scary that the politicans in Loreto who should be especially critical and monitoring this situation don't seem to understand that if the technology existed to economically generate clean water from salt water, the projects at Loreto Bay would be dumped like yesterday's pizza crust in favor of serving the affluent (and water-starved) communities in the Florida Keys....do they really believe this nonsense?
:?:

fdt - 4-15-2007 at 05:03 PM

President Calderon will be there thursday, you probably already knew this
http://www.oem.com.mx/elsudcaliforniano/notas/n239013.htm

Stickers - 4-15-2007 at 06:30 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Baja_Girl
"Sale pitch for the clueless" - .......... don't seem to understand that if the technology existed to economically generate clean water from salt water, the projects at Loreto Bay would be dumped like yesterday's pizza crust in favor of serving the affluent (and water-starved) communities in the Florida Keys....do they really believe this nonsense?
:?:


BajaGirl, they said they were going to "harvest water" maybe they can use machetes ?

:lol:

Baja_Girl - 4-15-2007 at 07:02 PM

oh, I get it...silly me, they are gonna use water-plants (such as watermelon and watercress) - which are native to (and only known to) the luminaries at the Loreto Bay Company.

By the way, I wrote to the LBC and asked them to please, please share their brilliant technological advances in water-harvesting with the rest of the world...I'll keep you posted...pun intended.

capn.sharky - 4-16-2007 at 12:33 PM

"they are gonna use water-plants (such as watermelon and watercress)"

Baja Girl---What they had been talking about was planting a rain forrest in the mountains. At least it was brought before Fonatur. I like your idea better---watermelon and watercress. You go, girl.

Don Alley - 4-16-2007 at 12:43 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by capn.sharky
"they are gonna use water-plants (such as watermelon and watercress)"

Baja Girl---What they had been talking about was planting a rain forrest in the mountains. At least it was brought before Fonatur. I like your idea better---watermelon and watercress. You go, girl.


No, they have dropped that plan. New plan: First, they have developed a geneticaly engineered, specially bred golf course grass that can live on plain Sea of Cortez salt water. Second, Loreto Bay Laboratories has also developed genetically altered vacation home buyers who can both bathe in and drink salt water.

And, Loreto Bay will generously donate a portion of their salt water to the city of Loreto.

[Edited on 4-16-2007 by Don Alley]

backninedan - 4-16-2007 at 02:16 PM

Clippings of this new grass (lollipopus gotchurmoney) better know as common "sucker grass", will be recycled as carpet pad for the lovely Loreto Ghetto condos.

oldhippie - 4-17-2007 at 10:30 AM

I think the development at LB is in for hard times. The development got going during the recent U.S. real estate boom which is now over, no debate about that. The only debate is how big the bust will be. Therefore the days of fast home sales with huge profits in the U.S. are over until the next boom. Does that mean the demand for LB homes will significantly decrease? - I would bet on it.

Plus the success of the development is very much tied to the profitablility of the airlines that fly into Loreto. Hasn't that airport opened and closed at least once? I don't know, but it's entirely possible/probable that the Mex government is subsidizing the airlines to fly into Loreto.

If the flights stop, the development is toast. Which by the way is what it is every summer anyway. It gets freaking hot and sticky during the summer.

Sure, there are water, sewer, social, and other major problems already. But only one thing will determine whether or not this development succeeds, profits for the developers. If they stop all else will too and the economic picture is not good.

Cypress - 4-17-2007 at 11:50 AM

Guess your perspective depends on whether you're buying or selling.:D

bajabeachbabe - 4-17-2007 at 01:44 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by oldhippie
I think the development at LB is in for hard times. The development got going during the recent U.S. real estate boom which is now over, no debate about that. The only debate is how big the bust will be. Therefore the days of fast home sales with huge profits in the U.S. are over until the next boom. Does that mean the demand for LB homes will significantly decrease? - I would bet on it.

Plus the success of the development is very much tied to the profitablility of the airlines that fly into Loreto. Hasn't that airport opened and closed at least once? I don't know, but it's entirely possible/probable that the Mex government is subsidizing the airlines to fly into Loreto.



I really don't think the real estate boom or bust in the US will ultimately affect LB. Most of the people buying into that development are middle age to retirement age and much of their disposable money is from inheritance or savings. The aging baby boomers (of which I am one) are the target audience for all of the development in Loreto.

More flights are coming into Loreto than ever before. I flew out of Loreto on Sunday the 15th and the Alaska flight was completely full.

Doug/Vamonos - 4-18-2007 at 05:44 PM

My first visit to Loreto was in 1994. It was as quiet as could be. We were probably the only guests in La Pinta in July, they opened the restaurant when we wanted to eat. We were the only boat on the water fishing. I remember in the late nineties hearing all the promos on Let's Talk Hookup with Pam Bolles, promoting the fishing in Loreto. I kept wishing she would just be quiet and keep it to herself. But, she chose to make a living that way, as do other people in Baja. That's the one thing I can't stand in Baja; Americans making a living trying to get more Americans/Canadians/whoever to move there or otherwise invest in Baja and change what it has been for centuries. Guess what? The people came, and they keep coming because of all the promotional BS that they hear. I'm sorry to sound harsh, but that's the way I see it. I've decided Baja's glory is in the past. The fishing doesn't even approach what it was just ten years ago. Sure, there is a good bite at times, but there are so many commercials out there fishing them that they won't last long. Can't, because it's not being managed. And in the larger towns like Loreto, La Paz, the East Cape and Cabo, there are so many private boats in the water killing everything they see. And Americans are broadcasting the daily catch stats on the radio shows to get more of them coming, so they can make more money on their charters and hotels. Greed, greed and more greed. Damn, sorry to be such a bummer.

Don Alley - 4-18-2007 at 06:19 PM

People have been promoting fishing in the Sea of Cortez since the 1950s...Ray Cannon, Bobby Van Wormer, Ed Tabor, Rod Rodrigez, to name a few. My parents were fly down fishermen in the 50s. I cannot equate someone following that tradition, like Pam Bolles, with corporate developers out to remake Baja in a new image for the sake of pure greed. I cannot equate the efforts of an individual trying to support a family with a corporate juggernaut.

I find building huge resorts selfish. But there is also a selfishness in wishing Loreto and its people remain poor so that our short vacations are more picturesque, and the fishing better. There is a middle ground here, where Americans can contribute and share some of the wealth we are so fortunate to have access too. Moderation is the key.

jerry - 4-18-2007 at 06:31 PM

excuse me but pam bolles is married to a mexican and he was living and making a living in loreto long befor 1994 and loreto was advertising for fisherman for more then 50 years every time a fisherman comes home to brag about how good the fishing was more people come try it and move there
as a mater of fact you just now promoted loreto as still a good fishing place telling everyone on this board
there may be people that are promoting come live in loreto but it sure isnt pam bolles its a fishing village and promoting fishing is what it is all about

Doug/Vamonos - 4-18-2007 at 08:04 PM

Developments are being built because there is a demand for these homes. Same as southern california, or any other city that is in a growth mode because it is a desirable destination. Anyone who runs a business in the area and promotes it as a destination for their own profit motive, has a role in the people coming there, and possibly finding a place they want to call their own and stay. My point was not to place blame on one person. Baja is exploding because travel there is relatively safe, affordable and fast. That wasn't the case ten or twenty years ago. The marketing created the interest, the airlines reacted to the demand and made it cheap and easy to travel there, and developers are now building for those who want a piece of it.

jerry - 4-18-2007 at 09:21 PM

sorry doug but everyone promotes something for there own motives even if it just them selves for a job or to a boss for a raise i too have been going to baja since 1991 and i know the mexican standered of living in loreto has gone way up
i dont think keeping everything as it once was for your own benafit is grounds to blame somone who belongs there for changing things for their benafit

have a good one jerry

oldhippie - 4-19-2007 at 07:30 AM

The biggest problem appears to me to be the fact that these types of developments preclude locals from being owners because of the high cost. Too bad something couldn't be figured out that includes the locals as owners. I imagine the developers could have built houses/condos that cost between $50K - $150K. They do it here in Tijuana where land costs are pretty high. The LB folks just decided that they weren't concerned about providing housing for Baja locals and to maximize their profits. Which I bet are quite tidy when you consider the cost per square foot to build a concrete structure on cheap land using real cheap labor and the price per square foot that they're getting.

Also, this is from their website:

"Imagine a place where every day the air is cleaner the water is purer the people are healthier life is more abundant...."

Now let me get this straight, the place is going to be cleaner and healthier after 10s of thousands of people with their bowel movements, cars, plastic bottles, garbage, and a myriad of chemical cleaners, insecticides, and who knows what else arrive?

What a sales pitch!! These folks have balls!! That's absolutely 100% impossible. I can just see them laughing in their board room when the marketing folks came up with that.

Anyway, good luck to those who have bought. As bajabeachbabe pointed out, most are middle aged or older so they're in good shape. They will all be dead in the 20 to 30 years it will take for Loreto to degrade into another Cabo Wabo.

grumble, grumble, grumble

I can't help it. It happened to Cabo, its happening now on the East Cape and in Todos Santos, and it looks like Loreto is next.

oldhippie - 4-19-2007 at 08:34 AM

Forgot to add this. Here's what the folks in the ivory towers think. Sorry if this has been posted before. I just got into reading this thread.

http://futurosalternativosloreto.org/report/report_conclusio...

David K - 4-19-2007 at 08:40 AM

Scary to think in just 18 years it could look like that... (the satellite map for 2025)... like San Jose del Cabo to Cabo San Lucas today... or worse!

If they want to do anything close to that, dams will need to be built in the canyons between Loreto and Comondu to make reservoirs. Hate to see those exotic canyons go underwater.

bajabeachbabe - 4-19-2007 at 11:30 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by jerry
i have a few questions
are most of the people working at loreto bay from loreto?? or come from the main land??
recently wasnt a large parcel of land south of loreto sold by a large number of familys to the tune of $55,000,000 us dollars
and another large parcel north of loreto in the $27,000,000us bucks by another large number of familys?
are we to tell these people not to sell there land?? what they should spend their money on?
in life as i know it you cant sell it and still have it' (except posibliy the penthouse)
these appear to be long time familys elders that O.K.ed these sales

i dont think the locals had much choise about loreto bay but they do have choses as to there future as loretoians and they are choosing to sell what they spend their money on is their busness

i allso think that loreto bay is small potatoes compared to the big picture for loreto

loreto was slated as a tourest trap many years ago look at escandeto and nopolo


Jerry makes a very good point. Right now Loreto Bay is the only visible development, so it is getting most of the wrath. I'm not a fan of LB, but at least they are building homes for owners and not hotels or timeshare resorts. This type of visitor will be interested in preserving the beauty of the area, for that is the reason that they bought into the development. For them Loreto is either their home or second home.

The other developments that will soon be popping up will include huge hotels, timeshare resorts and interval ownership resorts. These developments at Puerto Escondido and Ensenada Blanca are being developed by FONATUR and Villa Group, both Mexican entities. They aren't even trying to do anything sustainable from what I have read in their proposals. The people that visit these developments will be spending only a week or two on vacation and will certainly drive the tourist industry in the town.

In fact, during the Easter holidays, I believe Villa Group was intending to charge each camper on "their" beach 100 pesos for the right to camp there, in order to pay for providing toilets, garbage pickup etc. I don't know if their plan came together, but it appeared to be a ploy to turn the holiday period into a money making venture, by providing concession stands, etc.

As for Jerry's comment about the Loretanos selling their property, it is their right to do what they can with the property they own. Most of the beachfront property in Loreto is owned by the ejidos, and it is the ejido owners who are profiting from the sales. Nobody is forcing them to sell.

flyfishinPam - 4-19-2007 at 03:12 PM

Hi bajabeachbabe,

Please read this thread from about a month ago. The original article posted is in Spanish but I translated it later down the thread. Here's the thread's link:

http://forums.bajanomad.com/viewthread.php?tid=22961

its in the Baja News forum

You say LB is getting the flack because they're the first developing. I disagree. I believe its because of their deceptive method of selling something that they can't promise. Greenwashing is definately the word for it. I have studied the sciences, BS in Biology, BS and MS in Chemistry so I waded through advanced hydrology, physics, geology courses and I am telling you that they cannot deliver what they promise. Anything to sell a unit. My folks took their tour and I couldn't believe what the sales staff would say to her questions about Loreto's water, power grid, sewer, etc. There are many issues that are alarming but I believe the issue of water is the most severe and belongs on the front burner emergency-like.

Here's the little hotel that LB is proposing:

"Loreto Bay Company, of Canadian capital, was the first to take the Fonatur’s word. They’re projecting 600 hotel rooms, 6,374 residences, 4,571 villas, golf course, marina, spa, sport fishing center, restaurants and commercial, recreation and cultural centers."

that's a pretty big project. And I disagree with the type of homeowner there. Very part time residents are the reality so far and they mostly will be placing their finished home into the rental pool, which means basically they become hotel rooms.

In the article the proven fact is that for every constructed room, 20 newcomers populate the area. Here's some more facts:

"In general, they project 80,000 hotel rooms and a growth of 1,500,00 persons in a region where the subterranean aquifers can only support 42,200 before saline intrusion occurs, pointed out Morales Polo [of GEA]."

Here's the original online version of the article in spanish from the daily periodical La Jornada:

http://www.jornada.unam.mx/2007/02/19/index.php?section=esta...

So if the actual number of constructed hotel rooms, 80,000 becomes a reality our area's population will increase to 1.6 MILLION people.

There's just not enough water to sustain that population and that's a fact. Also will the shoreline properties be able to desalinate and dispose of the salmuera (waste) into the sea of cortez? My diciplines tell me that the SOC will become the dead sea if this is allowed. Salt brine is much more dense than seawater. The salmuera will settle to the bottom and the unsatisfactory underwater currents won't be enough to dispurse of this liquid properly. So for the same reason that trawling for shrimp is bad (they drag the bottom with nets literally scraping and tearing up the sea floor) so will be this selfish practice. There are other issues that are facts like those posted on the Loreto Water Meeting thread:

http://forums.bajanomad.com/viewthread.php?tid=23296

according to the most disturbing news of that meeting, we will be faced with a heavy metal toxic intrusion of the municipal aquifer. And what kind of enviornmentally friendly entity tears up shoreline to create canals that they label "estuaries that create life", but in reality are more waterfront properties to sell at premium prices?

I won't go into other things, this really ought to be enough for any person who is truly concerned about the future welfare of the city and its people. And these are facts, just the facts.

To Dave Vamanos~

I am guilty of promoting Loreto as an excellent fishing destination for ten years. But I do have to clarify for the record, I have never advertized nor appeared or spoken, even called in to Lets Talk Hook Up of any other radio show, with the exception of three call-in appearances to Ten Donavan's Baja Talk Radio show. Let's Talk was never interested in hearing a woman in this very challenging, physically and emotionally demanding line of work. I came here because I fell in love with my husband and the way of life. Also fishing in Loreto was at one time the main industry that got Loreto recognized as a tourism destination. since I started here Loreto only had one industry and that was tourism. We survived hurricanes, economic hardship especially after 9-11 and it has bonded us together. And that is only ten years. At one time Loreto was a very isolated village with no communications. If I weren't here I could not help to improve the quality of the experience that sportfishing is off Loreto, nor could I have contributed to the awareness that these captains deserve a fair and just compensation for what they do. Many now understand to consider running expenses and factor that into their pricing. Those who I employ are free of being under the yolk of other outfitters who don't treat them with respect and set prices among each other. I used to listed to Let's Talk Hook Up, can't remember those guys names, and I heard reports and paid announcements on Loreto fishing on behalf of Cass Tours, Lynn rose Tours, Bluewater Tours, Baja Motion Tours, Baja Adventures, etc. There are others outside that circle like fishabout and fishing international. They do way more promos in one day than I have ever done in ten years. simple reason in my case is that we're a relatively small operation and I just don't have the personnell to handle more than our load limits, and financial- we're not that well funded. The most popular promos we've done have been the fish reports on our website and our news feeds to WON, also amigos de baja among others. Nothing out of the ordinary that any of the other operatons haven't already been doing. The honest reporting was a new phase for Loreto and over these years has come to be appreciated. As large corporations take over here and the resorts take over and can their products to something less personal, I am hoping that the traditions of the panguero can remain intact. I will do what I can to preserve that. It would kill me to see some of the greatest captains pass their skills onto their sons, a beautiful tradition, only to become waiters shipped between the "Loreto Human Settlements" (actual quote in the growth article above!) to the five star resort at Ensendaa Blance a few years later.

Yeah Loreto is an incredible beautiful place, but the Loretanos y Loretanas are even more beautiful. Its just that "the beautiful people" won't notice.

David K - 4-19-2007 at 03:18 PM

Pam is the person you should be listening to on all things 'Loreto' not Loreto Bay propaganda.

Buying homes is an investment for the wealthy, it is not to be their new homes to live in all year. When the market is right or Loreto becomes uninteresting to them, they will sell.

If the housing market crashes, because of economic trends or no water or other services, then look for Loreto Bay to become a slum or ruin.

flyfishinPam - 4-19-2007 at 03:26 PM

I'm wondering how many business can survive the "improvements" taking place all over town? Hasn't been mentioned. right now there's a 20 foot diameter hole ten feet from my front door and raw sewage pipes are being opened closed and reopened again. The town is a disaster from the glorieta to the town center where my shop is. The beautiful people ought to thank us for surviving it before their arrival. :fire:

David K - 4-19-2007 at 03:34 PM

There used to be a bumper sticker that read:

'Wecome to California, now GO HOME!'

Loreto could do something like that... Bring money, then go! Okay for tourism, but not okay for residence...

Osprey - 4-19-2007 at 06:11 PM

Jerry,

"What?"

jerry - 4-19-2007 at 06:18 PM

Osprey

need glassess:tumble::tumble::tumble:

oldhippie - 4-19-2007 at 08:38 PM

Relax all who bemoan the transition of Loreto from a nice little baja town to a place para solemente ricos y esclavos. I just realized that in 30 years or so, due to global warming, which is a fact, Loreto Bay will be a scuba diving destination. Those lucky future divers will be able to sit around a table in a condo and spear fish as they swim by.

It only makes sense that the small semi-enclosed bodies of water like the Sea of Cortez will be the first to experience rising ocean levels.

BTW, the ivory tower folks concluded that salt water intrusion into the aquifers is inevitable and that the only solution is desalination and that unless a lot of money is spent the waste product of desalination (salt) will really screw things up. Plus, for those of you who don't know, desalination requires mucho energy ($$ and pollution) to produce the heat required. I guess they could burn diesel fuel. Fantastic. That will certainly make thinks cleaner and healthier. Solar panels and windmills certainly won't cut it.

The more I think about this the more I realize that these developers are just full of chit. They're obviously out to make a quick buck and then disappear.

That's it, me and my dogs Smiley and Nacho are hopping into the pickup/camper and going to Loreto. We're going to put a stop to this nonsense. I'll just hire some local TJ meth addicts to spray paint gang graffeti all over the place. That should kill sales.

bancoduo - 4-19-2007 at 08:52 PM

Got any room for me! I have three dogs and spray paint. I'm starting to feel young again.:biggrin:

Worldtraveller - 4-19-2007 at 09:43 PM

At the risk of taking this thread off-course, when will the streets be repaved? It's quite a mess: I can almost handle the potholes and detours, but haven't been able to adapt to breathing so much dust. Is the town fixing the water pipes along with the sewage and roads? Where is the money coming from for this large project? This construction must be having an impact on some businesses.
Quote:
Originally posted by flyfishinPam
I'm wondering how many business can survive the "improvements" taking place all over town? Hasn't been mentioned. right now there's a 20 foot diameter hole ten feet from my front door and raw sewage pipes are being opened closed and reopened again. The town is a disaster from the glorieta to the town center where my shop is. The beautiful people ought to thank us for surviving it before their arrival. :fire:

David K - 4-19-2007 at 10:07 PM

I am sorry oldhippie, but where did this come from:

"It only makes sense that the small semi-enclosed bodies of water like the Sea of Cortez will be the first to experience rising ocean levels" ???

Sounds like another Algore inconvenient 'truth'!!

The Sea of Cortez' sea level will rise (or fall) the same as the Pacific it is connected to... Gravity and the fluid nature of water makes 'sea level' uniform.

Just want to keep it real about 'global warming' ... in this record cold year!

Peace!

oldhippie - 4-20-2007 at 07:53 AM

David K,

Fair question. I should have said "It only makes sense (to me).........." and it does make sense to me. I have a good feel for the physical world and science in general, a BS and MS in Physics and 30 years working as a scientist and engineer. But you're correct, I don't have any data to support my thesis that semi-enclosed, relatively small seas will feel an amplification of the current increase in sea levels.

I'll do some research and report back on what I find.

You're also correct that water seeks its own level, but applying this notion to the oceans is an over-simplification. There's no denying that there is a lot of "sloshing around" that occurs due to lunar/solar tides and winds (friction at the ocean/atmosphere interface). When water sloshes into the Sea of Cortez because of one of the several annual hurricanes that spin up off of Mazatlan, will the surge be more devastating because the mean sea level is higher? I think so. Is the surge higher because a massive amount of water is being pushed into a small area? I think so.

You indicate that you're still a skeptic about global warming by your Al Gore comment. And your skepticism is strengthened by the recent cold winter months in these northern latitudes. Not much I can say about that except that there is a very strong correlation between winter months and cold temperatures in temperate latitudes. The global warming time perspective is decades, not months.

But all of this is off-topic. I'll be glad to debate global warming and how it may affect baja with you if you want to start a new thread. It is, afterall, a very timely and important topic.

David K - 4-20-2007 at 08:08 AM

Thanks Hippie, I appreciate facts and logic in this type of debate subject. I do agree it will happen over many decades, if it is happening at all.

Algore is a politician, not a scientist... Because the mind numbed Hollywood types follow him like lemurs does not give him an ounce of credibility to me. As I have said before, I camp on a barrier island beach which is exactly the same condition and size it was 30 years ago. The sea level in the Pacific has not risen. Some beaches on the Pacific are gone from storm waves and the lack of new sand getting to the ocean (dams and river channel development).

I don't do the 'off topic' forum because it does not work to convince anyone to change their minds and instead creates hostility. Baja Nomads should be friends... and there is no reason that friends can't have different opinions on politics and other matters.... but not to get mad about it.

tripledigitken - 4-20-2007 at 08:10 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by oldhippie
David K,

Fair question. I should have said "It only makes sense (to me).........." and it does make sense to me. I have a good feel for the physical world and science in general, a BS and MS in Physics and 30 years working as a scientist and engineer. But you're correct, I don't have any data to support my thesis that semi-enclosed, relatively small seas will feel an amplification of the current increase in sea levels.

I'll do some research and report back on what I find.

You're also correct that water seeks its own level, but applying this notion to the oceans is an over-simplification. There's no denying that there is a lot of "sloshing around" that occurs due to lunar/solar tides and winds (friction at the ocean/atmosphere interface). When water sloshes into the Sea of Cortez because of one of the several annual hurricanes that spin up off of Mazatlan, will the surge be more devastating because the mean sea level is higher? I think so. Is the surge higher because a massive amount of water is being pushed into a small area? I think so.

You indicate that you're still a skeptic about global warming by your Al Gore comment. And your skepticism is strengthened by the recent cold winter months in these northern latitudes. Not much I can say about that except that there is a very strong correlation between winter months and cold temperatures in temperate latitudes. The global warming time perspective is decades, not months.

But all of this is off-topic. I'll be glad to debate global warming and how it may affect baja with you if you want to start a new thread. It is, afterall, a very timely and important topic.



Jeez, is it just me, or does this make any sense? A surge generated by Glacial Melting?:?:

oldhippie - 4-20-2007 at 08:19 AM

Yikes, you folks are good at not letting unsubstantiated statements get by, I like it! A message board with folks that think.

OK lencho, according to links below 1/2 of the current world desal capacity is done by distillation and 1/2 by reverse osmosis, with RO gaining favor. Regardless it takes work (energy) to take the salt and other minerals out of sea water. Plus what about pollutants like whale crap, dolphin pee, and tons of dead fish remains? Yum, yum. I guess we can just throw in a bunch of chlorine to take care of that.

There's no free lunch here. RO requires high pressure electric pumps to push the water through the membranes. Distillation requires heat. Desal is expensive, requires energy, either heat or mechanical, uses complicated machinery, and produces nasty waste products. It's a last resort, pardon the pun.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Desalination
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vacuum_distillation
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reverse_osmosis

oldhippie - 4-20-2007 at 08:24 AM

tripledigitken it's you

David K - 4-20-2007 at 08:28 AM

Yah, there's different degrees of 'surge'!:lol:

tripledigitken - 4-20-2007 at 08:38 AM

Oldhippie,

To someone that is not a scientist, please explain a surge in the Sea of Cortez generated by Global Warming. Because frankly that makes no sense.

Thanks

oldhippie - 4-20-2007 at 08:48 AM

yes but I don't understand this statement

"Algore is a politician, not a scientist"

Old Al graduated cum laude from Harvard, was a congressman for 8 years, a senator for 8 years, and a vice president for 8 years. I think that indicates an IQ higher than room temperature. He's probably capable of listening to scientists and understanding what they are saying. He's the mouthpiece because he has the money, time, and recognition to devout to something he believes in.

This is way off-topic, sorry no more from me except facts to support my position on the huge mistake that LB is.

oldhippie - 4-20-2007 at 08:55 AM

OK tripledigitken

The surge is generated by the hurricanes that always happen every year in that area. It is more devastating because it is on top of a higher mean sea level. Now, you're probably thinking that the increase in mean sea level is only going to be inches, maybe feet, maybe several feet at the extreme, nobody knows. What's the big deal? I admit that it seems insignificant, but it's not.

David K - 4-20-2007 at 09:36 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by oldhippie
OK tripledigitken

The surge is generated by the hurricanes that always happen every year in that area. It is more devastating because it is on top of a higher mean sea level. Now, you're probably thinking that the increase in mean sea level is only going to be inches, maybe feet, maybe several feet at the extreme, nobody knows. What's the big deal? I admit that it seems insignificant, but it's not.


Hurricanes are natural and normal weather conditions, and if there was a surge in the Sea of Cortez from one, then it hasn't changed life along the shore any more than lunar high tides with wind waves... if that much. In other words, global climate change hasn't changed the shore conditions in anyone's lifetime here today. It happens, but over hundreds or thousands of years... Ice Ages and Warming Periods happen, over and over. I have dug up fossil sea shells far above sea level and many miles from the ocean! When the ocean was lower, man walked here from asia... No pollution from man changed the sea level 10,000 years ago.

The sky is not falling and it is a sad thing when out of work politicians have to scare kids and some adults to create a money making opportunity for themselves.... (movies, speaking seminars, selling 'carbon offsets').

The world may be cooling or warming... it has done those things since the beginning of time, and man can't cause it or change it, for Mother Nature is far more powerful than she is given credit for.

I hope this makes sense to more people than just me...

vandenberg - 4-20-2007 at 10:33 AM

Fifty years from now we all will know the truth. We will be above, looking down with all our family and ancestors around us, next to the throne of the man with the white long beard and chubby kids with wings floating around us.:lol::lol::lol:

And you know this to be fact because...

Dave - 4-20-2007 at 11:10 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by David K
The world may be cooling or warming... it has done those things since the beginning of time, and man can't cause it or change it...



You're tight with Mother Nature? :rolleyes:

oldhippie - 4-20-2007 at 11:20 AM

David K,

It never has hurt anyone to "bone-up" a bit on any area of knowledge. Perhaps you'll find the scientists at NASA more credible than Al.

"Twentieth century sea level trends, however, are substantially higher that those of the last few thousand years. The current phase of accelerated sea level rise appears to have begun in the mid/late 19th century to early 20th century, based on coastal sediments from a number of localities."

Also what began in the mid/late 19th century is the "industrial age" - the burning of coal and oil. It's not a coincidence.

http://www.giss.nasa.gov/research/briefs/gornitz_09/

bajalou - 4-20-2007 at 11:24 AM

Seems to me there are a limited number of facts - but unlimited numbers of theories of cause and effect. All by scientists with great credentials.

David K - 4-20-2007 at 11:33 AM

Doesn't all this need to be in the Global Warming in Baja thread instead of this Loreto thread??

Hippie: We can only see evidence of the sea level now and in the past... Since there are sea shells all over the desert and the hills in San Diego County that I have seen, I am going to take a wild guess and say the ocean once covered these places... and man wasn't burning oil or coal then.

Even if we lived the way of the Indians of 200 years ago, the sea levels will change... Volcanos, solar flares, plate tectonics, magnetic poles are things that man has no control over, and they will be what causes global climate change or sea levels to move.

Dave: Yes, I am... with God too... shalom!

Wealthy/shmelthy

Dave - 4-20-2007 at 11:36 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by lencho
There's plenty of water out there for the wealthy,


Wealthy or not, people will pay.

oldhippie - 4-20-2007 at 11:53 AM

"There's plenty of water out there for the wealthy, as long as the energy is available and the enviromental impact is not a concern..."

Excellent point and a good segue back to the issue at hand. The wealthy of LB will first drain the aquifers before desal is implemented. Then the non-wealthy (the mexicans who live in Loreto) will find themselves having to buy water they can't afford.

I went for a walk this AM with Smiley and Nacho in my beautiful Tijuana neighborhood and studied the gang graffeti. It's amazing how those artistic folks get their work up so high on billboards and overpasses. These guys will make short work of Loreto Bay. I'll probably have to stock up on spray paint in Cd. Constiticion. Of course, being an oldhippie, I'm partial to the dayglo colors. Anybody else have any favorite colors? A Santa Fe desert palette would probably please the owners.

old hippie....here is your guy.

Pompano - 4-20-2007 at 12:13 PM

Of course, his colored chalk graffitti only lasts as long as the next rain....

-1 americano de graffiti.jpg - 45kB

Dave - 4-20-2007 at 12:22 PM

Pompano, I like your "two dog art" better. ;D

oldhippie - 4-20-2007 at 02:00 PM

pompano - give that guy some spray paint!

So I did some research with the goal of exposing these con artists, just call me Mike Wallace. A web site devoted to killing this project is next, what fun, think I can do it?

Have fun, this is about their sustainable power source, what a hoot!

From

http://www.loretobay.com/loretobay/LBC%20Sustainability%20Ov...

The prime source of electricity will be 20 megawatts of wind power generated on the West Coast near Puerto San Carlos. LB partner is Econergy International Corp (EIC).

I found this: "1,000 megawatts x (1000 kilowatts/megawatt) / (0.75 kilowatts/residence) = 1.3 million households." at http://www.physics.uci.edu/~silverma/crisis.html. This is an average in California.

So, if 20 megawatts, 20 * 1,300,000 / 1000 = 2,600 households. Whew, I thought they were going to build a much larger development.

Info on EIC:

http://www.econergy.net


http://www.energy.ca.gov/2005publications/CEC-600-2005-005/C... page 24.

http://www.econergy.net/Asp/DisplayPDF.Asp?NUMBER=270

The discussion on the Loreto Bay project is missing from this document, must be an oversight:

http://www.econergy.net/Asp/DisplayPDF.Asp?NUMBER=319

This is something mysterious on their Investor Relations page:

"This section of the website contains information, the distribution of which is restricted. In particular, such information may not be distributed in or into the United States, Canada, Australia, The Republic of Ireland, Japan or The Republic of South Africa." Seems pretty strange to me. There must be a simple reason why.

Sorry all you Americans and Canadians buying into LB, you can't read about the company that's going to power your Margarita blenders and keep the beer cold.

Good thing I'm a half mile south of the US in Mexico, otherwise I certainly wouldn't read it and it obviously makes a big difference. Here I go......

Oh well, nothing very interesting.

But there is always this. They're listed on the London Stock Exchange. That's gotta be worldwide public info.

http://www.londonstockexchange.com/en-gb/pricesnews/prices/S...

Stock is down over 20% this past 12 months. DOW is up 20% - buy American.

Keep on eye on this "proposed" wind power project on the pacific coast that's going to power LB. It's nothing to be concerned about, some diesel generators will do the trick until they build this thing and string wires across the mountains. And after it's built keep some batteries on hand for those calm days on the other side of the peninsula. Is it windy at night? I'm always asleep.

oldhippie - 4-20-2007 at 04:21 PM

Jeez, I'm still at it. I've been reading about Econergy, catchy name huh? I'm beginning to like this company, after all it's CEO is a guy named Stoner. That used to be this oldhippie's nickname. :cool:

Seems that they're dealing in European carbon emission units. New and very tricky market. I don't quite get it yet but I think polluters can buy these permits to pollute. The idea is to make it costly to pollute. Good idea. Workable, honest, and financially transparent, who knows? The cost of a permit (unit) has dropped recently so that's probably why their stock has dropped. The EU aspect is also probably why they're on the FTSE instead of the NYSE or NASDAQ.

They recently bought a million tons of permits to sell to EU polluters. Plus I think they get permits to sell if they generate clean energy, hence their interest in baja wind power.

In April 2006 CO2 permits were at 30 euros per ton CO2, last month they were 1.2 euros a ton. Ouch! Wonder when Econergy bought their million tons worth. BTW right now 1 Euro = $1.36.

Sooooo, to keep this on topic, the main source of power for LB is being financed by a nifty little company made up of people looking to profit by the Kyoto agreement and its mechanisms. Nothing wrong with profit, and working the green machine is a good thing.

But come on, windmills in Mexico?? Mexico has the second largest oil reserves in this hemisphere, second to Venezuela, and obviously air pollution is not a top priority. AND their oil is worth $65 a barrel!! The guys at Pemex must be really scratching their heads wondering what the crazy gringos will do next.

If I'm writing too much, just tell me to shut up, I'll consider it.

http://www.fool.co.uk/news/comment/2006/c060503c.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Union_Emissions_Tradin...

They're scratching something but it ain't their heads

Dave - 4-20-2007 at 07:36 PM

And they couldn't find 'em if you drew a map.
Quote:
Originally posted by oldhippie
But come on, windmills in Mexico?? Mexico has the second largest oil reserves in this hemisphere, second to Venezuela, and obviously air pollution is not a top priority. AND their oil is worth $65 a barrel!! The guys at Pemex must be really scratching their heads wondering what the crazy gringos will do next.


Tough to sell oil when you can't get it out of the ground. Five years ago it was estimated that Mexico, even with its considerable reserves, would become a net importer by 2015. This year industry estimates have been revised.... to 2013.

We should all pray for wind. ;)

WIND

djh - 4-21-2007 at 07:41 AM

There's sure a LOT of hot air being released by the LB promoters.

Maybe we can harness THAT !

(Like.... with a muzzle ? ? )

:o

djh

BTW, Oldhippie, don't you dare stop writing ! Good research !

[Edited on 4-21-2007 by djh]

Phil S - 4-21-2007 at 02:57 PM

Old Hippie. Have re read your comments regarding Loreto Bay three times. I think I have a pretty good picture of where your coming from. Correctly if I'm wrong.
You have a good investigative background. i.e. police or insurance background?
You appear to be thorough when you 'look into' a subject. (this led me to go to the Econergy site you gave us. I read what they are doing. But I must have missed something that you saw that makes them a bad choice for the Loreto Bay Co.s wind generator project!! You said that they were "financing" this project for Loreto Bay????? I couldn't find anything in their documentation that says "they are the money behind the project"??
I'm confused about your statement about Pemex in relation to the wind generator project of Loreto Bay? Elaborate please. If Loreto Bay wants to do "clear electricity" how does Pemex enter here?
Your interests in doing a website to "expose these con artists" leaves me to wonder how those 1,400 workers that are supporting families & themselves would feel, hearing this!!!! Also the contractors who are hiring these workers. And the grocery stores that are selling them food, & liquids. And the car dealers that are selling them cars. And the clothing stores (used/new) who are relying on them to have money to support Their families. And the domino's will fall. All because of someone who lives???? in Tijuana has taken it upon himself to "expose" these folks????
Where is this coming from???? Are you conscience driven? Or is there anything in your background that has caused you want to do this?????
And please don't stop posting. This is an open forum, and everyones postings represent our "rights to express ourselves". Just having a little more information from you might help me understand where your coming from. Thank.

Paula - 4-21-2007 at 08:10 PM

Phil S, If you look back to Old Hippie's post of 4-20 at 7:53 am, you will see that his background is in science and engineering, not police work or insurance. As you say that you've read his comments 3 times, I'm surprised that you missed this. And I surely don't understand justifying the greenwashing and as yet unfullfilled promises of the developers by implying that a large number of workers and business people would condone this behavior. If "the dominoes fall" it will be due to the fact that Loreto Bay has engaged in deception, and not because of one person who "has taken it upon himself to 'expose' these folks".

Old Hippie, thank you for your well researched, clear, level-headed posts. I hope we hear more from you...

Mind you, I'm not taking sides here, just calling it as I see it :saint::biggrin::saint:

Phil S - 4-21-2007 at 08:36 PM

Paula. Thank you for answering Old Hippies working background for him. I just read into page 9, and gathered my info from there. I wasn't interested in melting ice/raising water levels, so must have skimmed over that one. Well, with his being an engineer, and my many friends who are retired engineers, and as thorough as they are, it's kind of hand in hand for the police background/investigation that I was thinking he must have been. He's certainly very thorough in his comments. But I will hold firm on my thoughts about anyone trying to destroy Loreto Bay because of whatever their reasons may be. Many people would be hurt by him if he were to succeed in his website who are dependant upon Loreto Bay for their lively hood. Hold down the fort until we return, Paula & husband Don Alley sometime in October.

[Edited on 4-22-2007 by Phil S]

Don Alley - 4-21-2007 at 09:00 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Phil S
...But I will hold firm on my thoughts about anyone trying to destroy Loreto Bay because of whatever their reasons may be. Many people would be hurt by him if he were to succeed in his website who are dependant upon Loreto Bay for their lively hood. Hold down the fort until we return, Paula & husband Don Alley sometime in October.

[Edited on 4-22-2007 by Phil S]


Uh oh. Sounds like big trouble for Loreto Bay. Old Hippie is on their case, and Paula and I are holding down the fort. :lol:

"Hey Paula, I thought tonight was your turn to hold down the fort."

"NO, I held it down last night."

"Did not."

"Did so."

:biggrin:

Osprey - 4-22-2007 at 06:52 AM

Phil, When the people of, lets say, Camel's Breath, Arkansas learn that a Wallyworld or Supersuncity has purchased half the county and plans to change their little town forever, they usually react with special web sites, protests, townhall meetings, political push groups, hand-outs; anything that will make the regulators and developers stop, look and listen to their concerns. That's a fair and healthy process, seems to me. I don't think the old folks who are agin it should be allowed to lie about what they think the future will be -- hence I don't think the developers should be allowed to go way over the line in promises like these folks have -- it's obvious there will be a giant gap between "what they plan to do" and the availability of clear, clean water for everyone. Before the dust settles on this thing I think the buyers with dry water lines and no hope for a drop from anywhere will make their concerns known in lots of ways.

backninedan - 4-22-2007 at 08:38 AM

Phil, do you stand to lose money on your home if Loreto Bay fails? I know you had a home in Nopolo a few year back.

bajalou - 4-22-2007 at 08:48 AM

The truth should always be available. Anything built on lies will eventually fail. My opinion on Loreto Bay - ????????????? - I don't have a dog in this fight.

Don, you da man!

Sharksbaja - 4-22-2007 at 01:36 PM

I am impressed with your informative posts. These are exactly the kind of sources and info we are seeking.
The real shame of this whole project with LB is most certainly the lies and deceit foisted upon everyone. This marriage between Fonatur and Big Corporation exemplifies their(LBC) ability to overrule, overrun and overdo everything in the path of their objective. This includes railroading stockholders, contractors, govt officials, investors and the general public. Let us not forget how the media promotes LBC. They have no clue except what is spoon-fed them. Must be nice to have mags and rags promoting your lies. They make everything sound so real, so factual. Excuse me while I go :barf:
So how do you counter such an adversary?

Wait, there WILL be more. But how and why, you ask?

"Ours' is not to question" someone once said.

Now get it!:light:

oldhippie - 4-23-2007 at 08:58 AM

This document addresses the Econergy's investment into the "Baja California del Sur" windmill project via the private closed fund they run for venture capitalists and also speaks to their operating loss, albeit from 2005. BTW the name of the project changes in different documents.

http://www.econergy.net/Asp/DisplayPDF.Asp?NUMBER=270

It also speaks to the cash they raised, $95.7 million, with their IPO in the London Stock Exchange's Alternative Investment Market (AIM) sector. Money is a good thing as long as it is spent/invested wisely. And it's good they are publically traded because that gives those who have a stake in their business an avenue to find information via public records.

http://www.londonstockexchange.com/en-gb/products/companyser...

They are definitely "money guys" looking to profit from, as Jane Bryant Quinn calls in this week's Newsweek, "save the planet investing". She's a smart cookie BTW. Also stated in the article is that "green funds" have gone from $176 million in assets in 2000 to $1.4 billion in 2006. I may jump on that bandwagon today.;)

Energy produced by alternative methods such as wind and solar is typically fed into the "power grid" thereby decreasing the percentage of power available that is generated by buring fossil fuels and fissioning uranium nuclei. I suppose you could rig up a pure wind/solar system but what to do when the wind isn't blowing or the sun isn't shining is a big problem. Plus a dinky windmill power plant on the west coast to power a resort on the east coast doesn't make much sense to me.

I imagine some are surprised at my mention of nuclear power. Well, there are 435 nukes worldwide quietly pumping out mucho juice and not emitting one ounce of greenhouse gases. When was the last time there was a problem with those? 25 years ago? The industry is now ramping up, with oil seeming stabililized at 3 times what it was not very long ago, there are more on the way. Let's not get into the nuclear debate.

So anyway, those of you who thing that LB is being powered by wind energy alone are mistaken (I think). But the mistake is understandable given that is what the LB marketing materials lead you to believe.

Pemex (government owned) provides the fuel to the government owned CFE who runs the power plants and the grid. They will be a part of any generating facility in Mexico, regardless of the energy source. Fox pushed initiatives to privatize the electric power industry and I imagine Calderon is following up. We'll see.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comisi%C3%B3n_Federal_de_Electr...

The Harvard Loreto Bay study I provided a link to draws the fundamental conclusion that if short term profits instead of long term planning take precedence EVERYBODY, investors and townspeople alike, will suffer. What do you think will be the driving force? A quick buck or the welfare of future generations? LB marketers claim the latter. Yeah sure.

I gotta go and make some money so I can buy a condo in LB and attack it from the inside. Don't worry I'll sell just before it goes bust. :light:

oldhippie - 4-23-2007 at 10:57 AM

Phil S,

You asked:

"Where is this coming from???? Are you conscience driven? Or is there anything in your background that has caused you want to do this?????"

Reason and logic are my religion. Unreasonable, illogical things drive me crazy.

What could be more absurd than a golf course in a sun baked, bone dry desert?

I just swept the floor in my kitchen and used the latest LB flyer I received in the mail as a dustpan. It worked well, I'm glad they're using that expensive, stiff paperstock for their multi-colored brochures. Pictured on it, among other things, is the golf course. Who's that golf course for? The locals? It won't even be a pleasant place to play golf. Yep, that's true eco-tourism, which is an oxymarooonish term that also drives me crazy.

Could the water and land the golf course consumes be used perhaps to grow food? What a novel idea, irrigate the land, grow food, and sell it. That's certainly a better way to raise the standard of living and grow a community.

oldhippie - 4-24-2007 at 02:20 PM

As we all know, legend has it when Willy Sutton was asked why he robbed banks, he said "that's where the money is".

Well stupid me should have applied Sutton's crystal clear logic to the question why are they building wind generators on the west coast for an east coast facility. Why? Because that's where the wind is, of course.

This map shows that the San Carlos area is a moderately good place for a wind farm. As is, it turns out, where I live. I think I'll get a small turbine to charge up my wife's batteries.

http://www.re.sandia.gov/en/ti/rm/windclassap3-5.1.pdf

More interesting info for the technically inclined. Including the cost/kilowatt to build a wind farm.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wind_power

I'm changing my opinion about wind power, afterall it's heaven for whirligig enthusiasts like myself.

bajashar - 5-3-2007 at 06:24 PM

I've just read over many of the post in this thread. Very interesting...makes one think.

This is a bit off the usual theme here, but does anyone have information on Loreto Bay's sales process? Even perhaps a flow diagram? Or somewhere I can find this information?

I'm researching their over all processes for finding potential buyers and the steps and tactics of closing in on the sale (how and where they generate sales leads, how they convince those leads to go see the site, what processes and techniques they use when they have the leads down there, how they select and motivate US and Canadian realtors, how they manage the field sales people, etc).

I've searched pretty extensively the internet, but can't find a thing....must be well hidden away.

Bajalero - 5-3-2007 at 06:48 PM

Anyone have an idea what this statement is all about?

http://www.econergy.com/investor_relations/index.html

wilderone - 5-4-2007 at 08:46 AM

bajashar: I live in San Diego, one of the cities that LB has a sales office. In the past, LB has put a flyer in the SD Sunday paper. I have also gotten a presentation invitation addressed to me specifically. That may be because I have attended in the past. They schedule a promotion evening at a fancy restaurant and show a film and talk all about the beach club, the wine cellar, the theatre, blah, blah. Interested persons can sign up and pay $XX for a (I think) 2-day trip to LB (not any bargain price for sure). You are required to put down a $5,000 deposit before you go see the development or are given any actual information. There is no Q&A session at the restaurant presentations - they just repeat the same sustainable/stunning beauty mantras and begin to concoct the dream that they hope you'll (literally) buy into. They schedule tours several times a year. There are photos in www.flicker.com (above) showing how they drive around the potential buyers in golf carts within the development. They have a sales office at The Inn at Loreto Bay (El Posada a Bahia Loreto as I like to call it) and in town. They plan a dinner so all the potential buyers can hype themselves up and see what great neighbors they'll be for each other and so they can tell each other they're doing the right thing. I would imagine that scenario plays out in Victoria, BC and Scottsdale where they also have offices. I saw a full page ad in the Alaska Airlines in-flight magazine couple weeks ago. There are online ads in the websites featuring Baja and Mexican real estate and development. Why don't you call and express an interest and see what they tell you. 1-866-956-7386. They also have a sales office in Mexico City. Ask them what percentage of Mexican citizens have purchased a unit. Essentially, because a purchase of this sort is governed by the heart and not logic, they need to spin their web close to the fly.

bajabeachbabe - 5-4-2007 at 10:14 AM

Bajashar, we have received numerous mailings from them in the past three years. They send a DVD in a fancy mailer. The original mailing was a large package inviting us to attend a local meeting. Ironically, it was LB's mailing that even clued us in to Loreto. Our own trip last year confirmed for us that Loreto was indeed a place that we wanted to set down roots. However, LB is certainly not our cup of tea.

Surprisingly on our last two trips to Loreto, when we returned home, there in our held mail, was another advertisement mailing from Loreto Bay! I'm starting to think they are tracking us! :o

Bajalero - 5-4-2007 at 11:06 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by wilderone
bajashar: I live in San Diego, one of the cities that LB has a sales office. In the past, LB has put a flyer in the SD Sunday paper. I have also gotten a presentation invitation addressed to me specifically. That may be because I have attended in the past. They schedule a promotion evening at a fancy restaurant and show a film and talk all about the beach club, the wine cellar, the theatre, blah, blah. Interested persons can sign up and pay $XX for a (I think) 2-day trip to LB (not any bargain price for sure). You are required to put down a $5,000 deposit before you go see the development or are given any actual information. There is no Q&A session at the restaurant presentations - they just repeat the same sustainable/stunning beauty mantras and begin to concoct the dream that they hope you'll (literally) buy into. They schedule tours several times a year. There are photos in www.flicker.com (above) showing how they drive around the potential buyers in golf carts within the development. They have a sales office at The Inn at Loreto Bay (El Posada a Bahia Loreto as I like to call it) and in town. They plan a dinner so all the potential buyers can hype themselves up and see what great neighbors they'll be for each other and so they can tell each other they're doing the right thing. I would imagine that scenario plays out in Victoria, BC and Scottsdale where they also have offices. I saw a full page ad in the Alaska Airlines in-flight magazine couple weeks ago. There are online ads in the websites featuring Baja and Mexican real estate and development. Why don't you call and express an interest and see what they tell you. 1-866-956-7386. They also have a sales office in Mexico City. Ask them what percentage of Mexican citizens have purchased a unit. Essentially, because a purchase of this sort is governed by the heart and not logic, they need to spin their web close to the fly.



Talk about RED FLAG

Any one who is asked to pay upfront money for a look see should take a close look at things before they invest

[Edited on 5-4-2007 by Bajalero]

bajashar - 5-4-2007 at 12:29 PM

Thanks for the replies concerning their sales ad marketing process. I wonder how successful they are at closing sales once they get people down there.

Do you know what happens to the $5000 deposit, what does it cover? Is that partially to cover travel expenses, or do you pay for you travel separately on your own?

Do you get any of the $5000 deposit back if you decide not to buy? (or even if you buy?)

I know that the $5000 amount is typical for a lot of the condo communities being developed in Baja. In many cases, once the person goes to the site and then decides not to buy, they get it refunded. I believe it is a way to target only those people who are really serious at considering a purchase.

I also attended a local meeting. It was interesting because I was braced to be bombarded with hard-core sales tactics, but that didn’t happen. We entered, signed in, picked up some marketing materials, ate a bit, listened to the presentation with video, listened to Q&A where several buyers made statements of what a great decision they made, and then it was over. No Loreto Bay person approached us the entire time, even on our way out. In fact, I saw no one approached; there were several couple with the same reaction as mine. I don’t know if Loreto Bay just didn’t do a good job, didn’t have enough sales people there, or if that is their tactic to not appear hard selling.

Bajabeachbabe, when you went to Loreto was it part of the Loreto Bay sales event? If yes, did you feel really pressured?

Don Alley - 5-4-2007 at 01:03 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by bajabeachbabe
Ironically, it was LB's mailing that even clued us in to Loreto. Our own trip last year confirmed for us that Loreto was indeed a place that we wanted to set down roots. However, LB is certainly not our cup of tea...


Well, that's another thing about Loreto Bay. Their big promotional budget has helped promote Puerto Paraiso, Golden Beach, the Villas development at Puerto Escondido, and many individual projects. Until someone was willing and able to step up to the plate with a big promotional budget, Fonatur's Loreto plans were in a coma.

Sharksbaja - 5-4-2007 at 01:23 PM

"listened to Q&A where several buyers made statements of what a great decision they made, and then it was over. No Loreto Bay person approached us the entire time, even on our way out"

Now that IS clever. Considering how many folks are in and settled(?) and willing to share all that positive news with potential buyers at some meeting. I am impressed.

wilderone - 5-4-2007 at 02:40 PM

This is interesting - saw it on the LB website.
"Beginning in February of 2007, North America's largest sustainable resort development will offer beachfront vacation home rentals for 3, 6, 9, and 12 month lengths. The home owners participating in Loreto Bay Vacation Home Rentals have furnished their homes in selected fixtures, appliances and furnishings that blend the ambience of traditional Mexican architecture, modern luxuries and the wonderful indoor/outdoor living opportunity that are only possible in Baja."
Prices start around $1,350 per month for a 1 bedroom. Not a bad deal for 6 Mexican LBC workers sharing a 1 bdrm! I think LBC should give them a discounted employee rate. They wouldn't discriminate would they?
And a distinct deviation from the Rental Program proposed in 2004, where they outlined $200/night for a 2-bdrm. LBC Prop Management wanted a 50-50 split. I guess they figured out that was a fantasy. Being able to rent instead of buy I think would impact future sales as well. Why take the risk, pay the bills and the Beach Club membership? "North America's largest sustainable resort development" - HA!

Cypress - 5-4-2007 at 02:49 PM

$200/night? :O

bajabeachbabe - 5-4-2007 at 02:53 PM

Bajashar,
We didn't go to Loreto on a LB junket, and never looked at the project except at a distance. I don't like the idea of being spitting distance to my neighbor.

TyMad - 5-4-2007 at 03:01 PM

The LBC rental program is just starting, and since they don't have the infrastrcuture to accommodate nightly/weekly vacationers yet...they are offering long term rentals. It's a perfect solution to allow the home owners to have some income (more than the to 50/50 split) during their ramp up period.

Crusoe - 5-4-2007 at 03:44 PM

What happens when they run out of water? Will they give everyone their money back?:lol::lol::lol:

flyfishinPam - 5-4-2007 at 04:12 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by TyMad
The LBC rental program is just starting, and since they don't have the infrastrcuture to accommodate nightly/weekly vacationers yet...they are offering long term rentals. It's a perfect solution to allow the home owners to have some income (more than the to 50/50 split) during their ramp up period.


The long term rentals are mostly for Loreto Bay workers.

backninedan - 5-4-2007 at 07:12 PM

Tymad, are you a Loreto Bay owner, or an employee??

[Edited on 5-5-2007 by backninedan]

Crusoe - 5-4-2007 at 08:29 PM

Maybe someday they will win awards for....... Completely destroying and degrading a huge ( and one of the most beautiful views) of one of the nicer most dramatic short streches of pristine coast lines in BaJa.........And if you look closely at their corporote info.....brochures etc., they are an international company based in the U.K., and doing alot of completely bogus business promotions all over from S. Amereica to Ireland, and Mexico and the US......Untouchable and not responsible to any one. Really Now....It does not cost anyone or any company that much to advertise in the San. Diego Union and reel in a bunch of people who have been on "DUMB PILLS" for 40 years and think they are going to retire in Mexico and their life problems are all solved. So what will be the cultre change in Loreto?? No more Mexican smiles in nice quaint little restaurants? Just a bunch of more of Wall Mart shoppers who have no clue how far it is to the water? What water?.....

oldhippie - 5-5-2007 at 07:55 AM

Oh no, I swore off this thread, it was taking way too much of my time. BUT $1350 a month for a one bedroom! That's above Cabo prices. And in Cabo you have something to do after you realize the ocean view is the same every day. Heck you can get a one bdrm on the beach in San Diego for that. And San Diego is a much better place to be during the summer. It's hotter than hell in Loreto.

Here's a nice little one bdrm at the cape for $575

http://bajasur.craigslist.org/apa/323674430.html

http://bajasur.craigslist.org/apa/

oldhippie - 5-5-2007 at 09:37 AM

well I did it again, wasted a bunch of time researching these destroyers of nature, these %^$#% SOBs who are nothing but glorified used car salesmen who don't care about anything except getting richer.

These amoral liars claiming what their doing is environmentally sound when in fact they're taking beautiful pristine country and building houses, golf courses, and a whole bunch of other stuff that ends up producing GARBAGE AND POLLUTION.

And they're selling their "authentic mexican charm" at tremendously inflated prices to unsuspecting Canadians who aren't sure how to say NO in spanish and don't have a clue about desert living. What makes a desert a desert? - NO FREAKING WATER!! And I just read they're planning on TWO 18 hole golf courses!! Jesus Christ almighty, how stupid.

Tell me, are they going to haul away the 1000s of plastic containers that will be tossed out every day in electric golf carts? And just where is the guy who is driving the pollution belching garbage truck to the other side of the hill where the smoldering dump is going to live? Probably in the dump.

Read this, it's what is being destroyed by these money grubbing agents of the devil.

"Across the street from Misión de San Javier, 36 km. from Loreto, Carlos Ignacio Martínez Bastida squints when asked what his life is like here: "Happy—I lack nothing here, I have what I need, although it's true that you don't have everything here, but you don't need a lot and I do what I like to do," he says. His way of thinking is unfathomable for a foreign investor or a politician, always thinking of how to obtain more. Meanwhile, Martínez works in the field from 8 a.m. to 5 p.m., uses a bicycle to get around, and appears to have no notion of what it's like to be in a hurry. His house has drinking water and in the town there is a health center. Each family in Misión has its own plot of land where it grows garlic, tomatoes, onions, peas, broad beans, papayas, mangos, lemons, oranges, and grapefruit. They sell their products to stores in Saint Rosalía and Loreto."

His grandchildern will be washing dishes, covered in sweat, in the back of a restaurant barely making enough money to put a roof over their heads. Maybe his granddaughters will be turning tricks in the back of some bar for horny old pasty white geezers with pockets full of Viagra and wallets full of money. (No offense meant to my fellow nomads 8^).

Loreto is doomed. I gotta stop these guys. They're marketing experts, the drivel they put out in their press releases is all over the web.

But I did manage to find the TRUTH.

http://americas.irc-online.org/am/4080

http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/2005-11-30-baja-boom-side...

This made me want to puke:

http://www.artedeloreto.com/

bajashar - 5-5-2007 at 10:19 AM

Crusoe, you said "they are an international company based in the U.K., and doing alot of completely bogus business promotions all over from S. Amereica to Ireland, and Mexico and the US......"

I thought Loreto Bay Company is a Canadian/American corporation headquartered in the US, in Arizona......a subsidiary of The Trust for Sustainable Development in Canada. How are they linked to the U.K?

I've been looking for some kind of annual report on them or even a business plan, but haven't found anything yet. Anyone have any ideas where I look for such plans or reports?

Baja_Girl - 5-5-2007 at 10:32 AM

If they are a privately owned corporation, then I do not think that they need to publish an annual report or business plan to non-owners. I have not seen a pitch to prospective "investors" in the company - only the b-s that Oldhippie is describing above to gringo dummies who are willing to buy there.

I posted another, more recent, usatoday article (april, 2007) and it is utterly shocking that the media (so-called journalists) receive "media packettes" from LBC and then dessiminate LBC b-s (without question) as if its real news...

When I read this blog, I am beyond angry and annoyed - how could buyers be sooo stoopid? Maybe we can post something in the airport? "Go Away - there is no such thing as "sustainability" - if there was, then why the f--k is there water-rationing in the Florida Keys???" she screams as she pulls her hair out...

Oldhippie - if there is anything that we can do - count me in - I would love to nail those bastards, too.

Loreto, as it is, has my love...and should not be destroyed...

LET THE TRUTH BE KNOWN!

bancoduo - 5-5-2007 at 10:32 AM

http://www.ewire.com/display.cfm/Wire_ID/2563:no::barf::barf::barf:

Baja_Girl - 5-5-2007 at 10:38 AM

exactly...bancoduo...who is feeding the media this bullsh*t - any why is it being presented as news? A consultant???
Reminds me of this statement:

Consulting: If you can't be a part of the solution, there is money to be made in prolonging the problem."

oldhippie - 5-5-2007 at 01:08 PM

The link bancoduo posted states "The Villages of Loreto Bay, an authentic Mexican seaside community in Baja California Sur, has reinforced its commitment to sustainable development by hiring David Veniot, former president of Earth Day International, as Vice President for Sustainability."

Oh really, well that was back in 1992:

http://www.zoominfo.com/people/Veniot_David_738507171.aspx

Since 1997:

"David Veniot is a private consultant with 10 years experience in marketing and public relations. He is currently providing Internet marketing services as a principal consultant with The Strategy Group in Vancouver. As well, Mr. Veniot is a partner with the IPO NASDAQ Network, the largest provider of new, clean NASDAQ shell companies in Canada and western USA. As a trusted intermediary, Mr. Veniot facilitates introductions between buyers and sellers of public shell vehicles. All transactions are conducted through top Canadian and American law firms specializing in U.S securities."

Don't be confused about the word "clean" above. It has nothing to do with the environment. I think it's referring to non-corrupt.

He must have found a high maintenance arm piece because he's changed careers from environmentalism to high stakes venture capitalism:

http://www.canadait.com/cfm/index.cfm?It=102&Id=1048&...

A public shell is a vehicle (method) used to take private companies public via "the back door". It's actually an inactive public corporation. It's legal but somewhat slimey. The SEC has recently reigned these guys in but I think there is still a slimey aspect to it. So, maybe we'll be able to buy stock in Loreto Bay after it goes public. And we all know the prime responsibility of public corporation is to its shareholders. And gosh darn it, this environmentalism stuff can really chew up profits. I wonder how many shares the execs of Fonatur will get for pennies on the dollar.

Man these guys are slick and I don't believe a word of their good intent. They are all in it purely to make money (which in itself is OK) but they're doing it by (I think) false marketing and playing on he fact that finally, after 30 years, there aren't any more a holes calling environmentalists tree huggers and other derogatory names.

This is perfect, high stakes Wall Street money men using the most sophisticated and only somewhat transparent schemes, coupled with an incredibly expensive marketing program that plays upon environmentalism and really stretches the truth and is targeting baby boomer IRAs and 401Ks that are coming loose, coupled with expensive law firms, coupled with FONATUR Mexican officials (is there corruption in Mexico?), devasting an area populated by simple, hard working, largely uneducated folks who think a $1000 dollars is a fortune.

oldhippie - 5-5-2007 at 01:35 PM

I wonder if an investigative journalist at the San Diego Union would like to get on this. San Diego has plenty of readers who are interested in Baja. It would help them sell newspapers if in fact, as I suspect, there's some shenanigans going on.

But they are good at covering their asses. From their brochure:

Warning the California Department of Real Estate has not examined this offer. Including, but not limited to, the condition of title, the status of banket liens on the project (if any) arrangements to assure project completion, escrow practices, control over project management, racially disciminatory practices (if any), terms, conditions, and price of the offer, control over annual assessments, (if any) or the availability of water, services, utilities, or improvements. It may be advisable for you to consult an attorney or other knowledgable professional who is familar with real estate and development law in the country where the subdivision is situated.

I like lawyers, they are so good at pointing out areas where there may be problems. I really like "or the availability of water". I guess they're a bit unsure about it too.

flyfishinPam - 5-5-2007 at 01:36 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Baja_Girl
Oldhippie - if there is anything that we can do - count me in - I would love to nail those bastards, too.

Loreto, as it is, has my love...and should not be destroyed...


Count me in too Ol'hippie take a look at your U2U don't know how else to contact youin private. I don't U2U often though so I'll check when I can.

Crusoe - 5-5-2007 at 02:30 PM

Bajashar......Go to Bajalero"s post on page 10 and click on www.econergy.com/investors_relations. You could easily spend 40 hours of your time their sluething out the chain of win/win bogus endeavors but the bottom line is the names on the companys Presidents and "Salaried Board of Directors and Consultants" are the same people as who own and run and are greenwashing the hype of L.B.. Its an international money laundering shell game. Big time. If they are so " sustainable" then why haven't they done something to secure and sustain there own warter supply?? Well I can tell you why.....The right amount of cash got shoved in some Mexican officials pocket and they are allowed to outright steal the locals water...... and when its all gone they will be long gone back to England... or wherever.......thats what they would like you to think. But the money will end up in a Swiss Bank and then transferred to a bank in Ont. Canada then wind up in in San Francisco and elsewhere. Big shellgame..acountable to no laws or rules. Just wrecks the environment.

bajashar - 5-5-2007 at 03:04 PM

Thanks Crusoe. I see the UK connection you were making. How do you feel about the other companies Loreto Bay is working with?
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